You have No Place in NY if you oppose SAFE


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ThorinNNY
January 18, 2014, 11:10 AM
act, says Gov. Andrew M Cuomo. See the article at:
http:/blog.timesunion.com/capitol/archives/203801/Cuomo-extreme-conservatives-have-no-place-in-the-state-of-new-york/

So, I, a life long citizen of New York State, am to be smeared as an extremist
because I am opposed to Cuomo`s NY un S.A.F.E. Act? What`s next Mein Fuhrer, rounding up and deporting all members of the NYS Conservative Party, The Tea Party and the few conservative Republicans still left in NY State?

Please read the above article and pass it along to your friends. If you're not a NY State resident, there ARE people who want to bring the same kind of laws to you!

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Doc7
January 18, 2014, 11:16 AM
This guy is out of his mind. This article makes me so angry. I am not even a NY resident. Cuomo is clearly trying to lump in a whole slew of issues;

"Are they these extreme conservatives who are right-to-life, pro-assault-weapon, anti-gay? Is that who they are?"



Assault weapon is a made up term. If he wants, he can introduce legislation that refers to a 5 shot 38 spl snubby as an "Assault Weapon" and then he can apply his hateful labels and words to even more "citizens" of his kingdom.

GiorgioG
January 18, 2014, 11:39 AM
I couldn't be happier having relocated from WNY to the Raleigh, NC area - this past summer. Lower taxes, more jobs, and no SAFE Act.

My first order of business when I got down here was to order a 10-pack of 30-round PMAGs ;)

2 weeks ago I finally got around to applying for my pistol permit. Picked it up yesterday.

There's really no hope in NY for sane gun laws.

Ryanxia
January 18, 2014, 11:49 AM
Edit: Is there any pro Rights organizations taking action to oppose this seemingly tyrannical situation taking place?
Anything on the grassroots/state level that we could support?

tomrkba
January 18, 2014, 12:54 PM
New Yorkers need to man up and put this fool in his place. There is a STATE beyond Manhattan whose needs are not being met by the NYC machine. I have friends in WNY who never go to the city and certainly do not subscribe to the values exhibited by Cuomo.

There's really no hope in NY for sane gun laws.

Yes, there is, but the state is not willing to do what is necessary to solve the problem. There is too much corruption involved and the gravy train would stop.

Is there any pro Rights organizations taking action to oppose this seemingly tyrannical situation taking place?
Anything on the grassroots/state level that we could support?

The problem is that the Democrats hold 71% of the Assembly and so on. They completely dominate the state's politics. 20% of the state's population can rail against the NYC machine, but they won't listen. NYC really should become its own state at this point.

ThorinNNY
January 18, 2014, 02:27 PM
There are organizations and individuals who ARE doing everything in their power to repeal the S.A.F.E. Act. The New York State Rifle And Pistol Association, the NRA and SCOPE - Shooters Committee on Political Education are working hard on this issue.
Radio personality Melody Burns of talk 1300 AM out of Albany worked very hard on this issue- her reward, the Cuomo Mafia leaned veerrry hard on Paul Vandenburgh (station owner) to shut her up. She was fired in December and Michael Savage was put in her slot. While Savage is good on some issues, he`s viciously anti-hunting, supports magazine limits, and is generally a weenie on 2 A issues in my opinion!
There are billboards outside of Albany, NY Slamming Cuomo on the SAFE Act. They were paid for by SCOPE members.
The fact is, there`s lots of grassroots activities working for repeal of the SAFE Act. We also have some support among NY State Senators and NY State Representatives.
But Cuomo`s anti-gun campaign is being financed by Mike Bloomberg, the Obama administration and others too numerous to mention.
Out of NY`s 62 counties, 52 have passed resolutions opposing the SAFE Act.
In fact, if we were just able to cut NYC, Westchester, Nassau, Suffolk and Albany Counties out of New York State, away from the entire USA and tow them to Russia, New York State would resemble most other states in the USA. But, betraying and abandoning our 2 A friends and compatriots in those blighted urban areas would be dishonorable and cowardly!
The problem is we are fighting very powerful , extremely well financed groups and individuals.
The Watertown Daily Times which has circulation in Jefferson, Lewis, St. Lawrence and western parts of Franklin County recently published a series of blogs by one Jerry Moore , editor. Jerry Moore`s blogs are viciously anti 2 A.
You can find his blogs by going to :
http://www.watertowndailytimes.com/section/blogs 16. He was saying what Cuomo is saying before Cuomo actually said it. Coincidence or DNC talking points being circulated?
We have done a lot, already , this year and plan to do a lot more, I wish I could guarantee the results we desire but you probably heard this before; ~th best laid plans of mice and men oft gang a gley- attributed to Robbie Burns of Scotland.

GiorgioG
January 18, 2014, 02:30 PM
The problem is that the Democrats hold 71% of the Assembly and so on. They completely dominate the state's politics. 20% of the state's population can rail against the NYC machine, but they won't listen. NYC really should become its own state at this point.


That's the entire issue in a nutshell. No amount of "man-ing up" is going to fix this. NYC has no incentive to be its own state...they get lots of cheap power from the Niagara Power Project, state-wide tax revenue to fund their social programs (Medicaid, etc.)

Old Fuff
January 18, 2014, 04:59 PM
New York’s problem with gun issues is much like those in Illinois with its relationship to Cook County and Chicago. But recently the anti-gun advocates have had their behinds kicked by Federal Court decisions. Illinois is not Arizona, but it’s much better then it was.

So don’t give up because there is hope.

AlexanderA
January 18, 2014, 05:27 PM
Stuff like this is going to absolutely kill Cuomo's chances for national office -- even his chances of getting the Democratic nomination. Either he's stupid, politically, or he's very smart, figuring he's consolidating his position in New York politics. I tend to think it's the latter. After all, Hillary Clinton is the runaway favorite to win the nomination. She's officially a New York resident, and the Constitution says that electors cannot vote for two candidates from the same state, so a Cuomo VP bid is precluded.

Vern Humphrey
January 18, 2014, 05:51 PM
That is blatant violation of civil rights under color of authority -- a federal crime.

He is saying that if you don't agree with him politically, you should be driven out of the state.

plodder
January 18, 2014, 06:00 PM
After all, Hillary Clinton is the runaway favorite to win the nomination. She's officially a New York resident, and the Constitution says that electors cannot vote for two candidates from the same state, so a Cuomo VP bid is precluded.

Uhmmmm: It wasn't all that long ago that she carpet-bagged her way into NY to become eligible to be a US Senator from there. What makes you think she wouldn't do it again?:barf:

vincyr
January 18, 2014, 07:57 PM
And he manages to piss off a huge chunk of the people who still supported him with this statement. Most moderates(regardless of political affiliation) who had agreed with or at least tolerated most of his policies till now will probably jump ship after this massively stupid statement. He keeps this stuff up(and I expect/hope he will), and the only people he's going to have left on his side are the psychotically radical liberals, and they won't swing anything in his favor.

Jaymo
January 19, 2014, 01:26 AM
Right to life is bad?
Funny, how socialists oppose killing anyone or anything, except unborn children and conservatives.

goon
January 19, 2014, 02:19 AM
Actually, I'm not an extreme conservative. I'm pretty freakin' left on some issues. Not that it matters - I'll never live in NY. The only reason I'd go there is if I could work there, then take the money and run back across the border every night to live in VT or PA.

For those NYer's who were insulted by your governor, he pretty much told you to vote with your feet. Maybe that's what you should do.

PabloJ
January 19, 2014, 03:37 AM
act, says Gov. Andrew M Cuomo. See the article at:
http:/blog.timesunion.com/capitol/archives/203801/Cuomo-extreme-conservatives-have-no-place-in-the-state-of-new-york/

So, I, a life long citizen of New York State, am to be smeared as an extremist
because I am opposed to Cuomo`s NY un S.A.F.E. Act? What`s next Mein Fuhrer, rounding up and deporting all members of the NYS Conservative Party, The Tea Party and the few conservative Republicans still left in NY State?

Please read the above article and pass it along to your friends. If you're not a NY State resident, there ARE people who want to bring the same kind of laws to you!
"Hijo", think positive. The best deep concealment defensive pistol available is made in Deer Park NY.

Charlie Horse
January 19, 2014, 07:56 AM
One of the first things we need to do is to stop using the term "resident." A resident is defined as "a person who lives somewhere permanently or on a long-term basis." The proper term for someone who lives, votes and pays taxes in a state is "citizen." I am a citizen of the state of Alabama.

Why does this make a difference? Citizens have rights, and when they interact with the government at either the state or federal level, are operating as parties to the social contract. Every time time you remind the government that you are a citizen, you are invoking all of the rights that come with that. When you're called a "resident" they are hoping that you'll forget that you forget your position in the scheme of things and accept something less. This individual citizen is the basic unit from which all political power is derived in a democratic republic.

It reminds me of the time that the apostle Paul was tossed into jail, and the attitude was that he was "just another Jew." Attitudes changed when he pointed out that he was a Roman citizen. With those two words he invoked rights that changed how he was treated.

I wonder what would happen if all of the BATF forms were changed to read "citizen" rather than "resident." Granted its a small change, but words mean things.

JRWhit
January 19, 2014, 08:21 AM
Seriously, at this point with the incredible over reach of Bloomberg, and now the further over reach promised by De Blasio, I am coming to the conclusion that there is no such thing as a fair election in NYC. It has gotten to a point where it just doesn't make sense anymore.

vincyr
January 19, 2014, 09:18 AM
For those NYer's who were insulted by your governor, he pretty much told you to vote with your feet. Maybe that's what you should do.

Which is what he wants. Every person he drives from the state is one less person that can oppose him here. He has been trying for years to weed those that must be lead from those willing to be ruled, and some have left. But not as many as he had hoped, and he is discovering that the ones left only fight harder when pressured. As a whole, us NYers are a stubborn and belligerent group. When we choose to stand our ground, we don't run away

JERRY
January 19, 2014, 09:43 AM
he is a petty man whose wife cheated on him and left him for a pony boy. his ego is fragile and he must loud mouth his way through life using the police as his supporters. unfortunately the majority of new York voters are use to blindly obeying the way Adolph Hitler preferred and the way Andrew Cuomo demands.

ThorinNNY
January 19, 2014, 10:37 AM
" Vote with your feet"???
The first time I saw/heard this response, I groaned. But then an idea slowly worked its into my consciousness. Yeah , I think I like it.
I can just see an ad campaign that goes something like this:

Freedom loving Pro 2nd Amendment advocates & activists, Vote with your feet and help us take back New York State from the likes of Cuomo, DiBallesio, Bloomberg and all the other Liberals! That`s right, bite the bullet make the sacrifice, move into New York State, register to vote and drive the deluded Liberal lunatics out of New York State.:evil:
Look, it`s been done before. The example of Texas comes to mind. People from many states came into Texas, fought Santa Anna`s armies and helped Sam Houston et al establish the Republic (and later the State of) TEXAS. :D

JERRY
January 19, 2014, 11:23 AM
sorry Thorn, NY is like a foreign country (as we should hope). we will give you support, but the dirty work should be done by those living there.

we lost a lot of Americans in the middle east in places where the locals could care less for the most part.

we here in the states cant afford to move to NY and pay higher taxes, live in less of a house, in less safe neighborhoods, with less say so in our own lives when the locals have let it go so far out of reach through their own apathy.

herrwalther
January 19, 2014, 11:30 AM
I moved out of upstate NY before the SAFE act passed. When I was offered a very lucrative career back in the state I turned it down, specifically stating the SAFE act would make me a felon as soon as I crossed the border. The organization doesn't care for the the act either or the puppets in Albany who are controlled by NYC.

Bob M.
January 19, 2014, 11:47 AM
Edit: Is there any pro Rights organizations taking action to oppose this seemingly tyrannical situation taking place?
Anything on the grassroots/state level that we could support?


There's this. Found on another site. I don't think it will mean much. An apology would probably not be forthcoming anyways.

http://www.scopeny.org/andrew-cuomo-apologize/

ThorinNNY
January 19, 2014, 12:00 PM
Jerry
Sent you a PM.

ThorinNNY
January 19, 2014, 12:03 PM
Bob
I believe you are correct- Cuomo will NOT apologize. Would be dictators rarely do!

grter
January 19, 2014, 12:14 PM
That is a rotton biased thing to say. He is way out of line for saying that.

It is totally uncalled for considering a great portion of the state voters who happen to support the second amendment and rightly so as Americans pay for his meal ticket.

Perhaps he is about to learn that he jumped on the wrong celebrety band wagon this time.

Midwest
January 19, 2014, 12:19 PM
I made a suggestion here on THR in another forum about starting another pro-gun organization solely for the election of pro-gun candidates in anti-gun states and areas around the U.S.I believe this suggestion should be given serious consideration.

It works like this, donations would be accepted online, by mail and more importantly at local gun stores. A minimum for a $1.00 donation to whatever the max is allowed by law will be accepted.

Anytime someone buys ammo or a firearm they can have an extra dollar or two taken out of their purchase and donated exclusively to this fund. They could pay by cash, credit card at the point of sale. Every gun store & FFL in the country could participate as well as any merchant no matter what they sell. The idea is to make it simple and yet as effective as possible.

A list of anti-gun states and areas (like Chicago and New York City) will be drawn up by using the Brady Bunch Rating as one of the guidelines for rank. This fund will be specific only to those states and areas of the country. This fund will not be used to support pro-gun candidates in generally pro-gun states, only in anti-gun states and areas.

Thus someone in Idaho buying some ammo or a firearm and could allocate an extra dollar or two at the point of purchase and help a elect pro-gun candidate in New York State with his/her contribution! (Or help defeat an rabid anti-gunner- if there is no real pro-gun candidate running).

A list of pro-gun candidates in anti-gun areas could be derived from some published list by the NRA, GOA, other pro-gun organizations or from all sources.

This organization should be totally separate from other pro-gun organizations and this organization would nearly be autonomous. People running the organization will be paid $1 per year salary and the rest run by volunteers.

We have some lawyers here at THR, I'm sure it is possible to set something like this up. I don't think anyone would have issues donating a dollar or two to something that has the potential of turning this country around for the better. Maybe if we give this serious consideration, we will be seeing less of these 'help what can we do threads'.

Will it change things overnight? No, it may very well take years. Just like it took years for gun rights to erode as bad as they are now in NY, NJ, MD, CT, CA, CO and HI among others. But to sit there feeling helpless isn't the answer. How many gun owners are in this country? How many of those gun owners could donate a dollar or two to help make a change hundreds or thousands miles away?

And remember just because you might happen to live in a so called pro-gun state and feel safe and what happens in anti-gun states doesn't affect your little part of the world. It fact what happens in anti-gun states most definitely does affect your little world. Politicians in New Jersey have affected gun owners as far away as Alaska, Texas, Idaho, Florida and Maine. Ever hear of Senators Lautenberg and Hughes ? Did anyone of you who have never set foot in NJ ever have a chance to vote against these two politicians?

How about another politician, Senator Thomas Dodd from Connecticut who was widely regarded as one of the main players in drafting the 1968 Gun Control Act. If you didn't live in CT at the time, you didn't have a chance to vote against him.

Ask yourself what if Lautenberg, Hughes and Dodd were defeated in the elections before their anti-gun legislation took hold? Would we be still talking about the 'Lautenberg Amendment', 'Hughes Amendment' or the '1968 Gun Control Act' today? Maybe not.

Some of us who live in so called pro-gun states need to help our fellow gun owners that still live in these anti-gun states. Because as I demonstrated, what politicians do in CT, NJ will affect your gun rights from Alaska to Florida at some time in the future.

Having a national organization that helps donate money money to pro-gun politicians in anti-gun states and areas, might prevent another Lautenberg or Hughes amendment from ever happening again. Bottom line, no matter where you live...we are all in this together.

vincyr
January 19, 2014, 12:20 PM
Bob
I believe you are correct- Cuomo will NOT apologize. Would be dictators rarely do!
It isn't important that he apologise(Hell, it's kind of better that he won't). What is important is that it be known that he should.

goon
January 19, 2014, 01:28 PM
The first time I saw/heard this response, I groaned. But then an idea slowly worked its into my consciousness. Yeah , I think I like it.
I can just see an ad campaign that goes something like this:

Freedom loving Pro 2nd Amendment advocates & activists, Vote with your feet and help us take back New York State from the likes of Cuomo, DiBallesio, Bloomberg and all the other Liberals! That`s right, bite the bullet make the sacrifice, move into New York State, register to vote and drive the deluded Liberal lunatics out of New York State.

I wonder if leaving is the best strategy myself, but it's pretty obvious that the governor doesn't want you there. You're hopelessly outnumbered by people who'd imprison you just for the fun of it. It may be possible to shift voting in some states by moving in pro-gun people strategically in key districts and you may be able to assemble enough people to do that. Gun owners are a committed group.

But to take back NY you'd need the entire population of a couple of western states to forsake their current lives, give up their jobs, move to NY, and choose to live under chains for several years. If you can organize that then God bless you.

stealthcarry
January 20, 2014, 08:50 AM
Has anyone introduced the Gov to Uncle Saul?? Alinsky, that is. I seem to recall he had a number (hmmm, 13 seems familiar) of suggestions on how to deal with miscreants like this.

Of course, Uncle Saul was a hard-core lefty, but hey, what goes around as they say....:D

Willie Sutton
January 20, 2014, 10:50 AM
I wonder if the Governer notices that I moved my corporation, it's employees, and it's assets from NY? We used to be based at the same airport where his state police helicopter is based, operating 5 jets, but now.... we're gone..... forever..... along with all of our tax revenue and impact on the local economy.... that just faded away.........

The truth is that he doesn't know about my company, or the others run by entrapreneurs like me who just very quietly go away. He might notice the lessening of taxes collected as businesses like mine just fold up and leave, but it's like a pool being slowly drained slowly. It's hard to see at first but as the shallow end becomes more and more exposed, the rate seems to increase faster and faster. Eventually the pool is empty.

He really ought to read Atlas Shrugged. I did. And I took my money, resources, and those of my employees (all who left with with me) with me when I left.

You know who notices? The lunch counter where we used to eat. The FBO where we used to buy jet fuel. The catering place that serviced us with food for the jets. AIRGAS no longer sells us nitrogen and oxygen. The Snap-On truck sells us no more tools. We don't buy our company truck at the local dealer, or have it serviced by a local mechanic. We don't pay rent, and my emplyees don't buy any of their services there any more either. No more haircuts, plumbers, or insurance. No dentists or music teachers get paid. Several less kids attend the school system. This is the trickle-down economy that *I* pulled the plug on. Not a comittee, or a stockholders meeting, or a corporate board. The governer upset one key player in the company that I founded, and that is me. The buck stopped here, and it was for the reason of eroding freedoms for myself and my emplyees that I left.

There are others just like me.....

Know what? The FBO that we used to buy a $million in jet fuel from just went bankrupt. They laid off ten people, and closed their doors. Wonder why? How's the economy there, Governer? I can't wait for it to fail, and when it does I'll be reading about it from a thousand miles away.


I did my part, and another state is happy that I've come to town.


Willie

.

bikerdoc
January 20, 2014, 12:40 PM
Good for you Willie. That took a lot of guts and bless you for looking out for your employees.

Old Fuff
January 20, 2014, 03:16 PM
Like bikerdoc I was delighted when I read post #31, but I hope a similar copy went to the newspaper where he used to be. Not everyone who lives there understands what the government has done (and is still doing) to them. Also it might encourage some other business to start looking around. :evil:

Paladin7
January 20, 2014, 04:12 PM
The problem in NY is that the gun owners tend not to get involved in grassroots action and leave it to the big gun groups that are not able to do enough at the grassroots level.

The best advice I can give to anyone who wants to get involved in Long Island is to get active with the Conservative Society for Action... csa-1776.org

Unfortunately, to date very few gun owners get involved and believe me we've tried hard to get them involved.

Another great organization to get involved with is the Oath Keepers. They are very active with us at CSA.

If you are not in NY and know gun owners who live here, then give them hell until they join with an activist organization like I've listed and spend a few hours a month actually doing something about their rights.

You would be surprised what a few committed activists can accomplish...

ThorinNNY
January 20, 2014, 04:12 PM
Letter to Gov. Cuomo
Dear Sir
As a lifelong citizen of New York State, I`ve never heard any politician even come close to saying the irresponsible, inflammatory, derogatory things you said on Friday ,January 14, 2014. So you think Citizens of New York who hold to traditional values, are pro life and dare to oppose your ill-conceived, hastily and sloppily cobbled together and rammed through the legislature in the middle of the night S.A.F.E. Act have NO PLACE in New York State?
Sir , I am appalled and deeply offended by your remarks. You have thoughtlessly dismissed millions of decent, hardworking, responsible, productive citizens of all religious faiths as UNDESIRABLES who have no place in "your" New York State. Oh REALLY,Sir? Just what exactly do you propose to DO TO all the citizens you despise so heartily, Governor Cuomo?
Many years ago I listened to a radio program in which your father, Mario Cuomo, who was then Governor of New York commented to the host, Alan Chartock: " You know, Alan, it takes a MAN to build a BARN, but any jackass(sic) can kick one down!"
Governor Andrew M Cuomo, it seems to me you`ve blundered into a situation that demands you either man up and apologize for the vile things you said or to continue on your destructive path and behave like the four legged creature your father, Mario Cuomo referred to. Do you really want New York State to remain the laughingstock of the entire nation?

Vern Humphrey
January 20, 2014, 04:31 PM
Cuomo has committed a federal crime and ought to be prosecuted.

Curator
January 20, 2014, 05:14 PM
I lived in WNY for 40 years. I moved my company and 75 employees to Florida in 1983, pulling the plug on High taxes, stifling regulation, ubiquitous corruption, bad weather, pot holes, employment disincentives, gang violence, petty criminals everywhere, unnecessary car inspections, and shake-downs by the police and fire department. Other than those things, NY was great! New Yorkers should all vote with their feet and leave the place to rot. Unfortunately for many of them, they are stuck. "The strong do what they may, and the weak suffer what they must."

Vern Humphrey
January 20, 2014, 05:43 PM
I do not think New Yorkers should "vote with their feet" and leave the state -- after all, they have some responsibility for the current condition of the state. And when they move to another state, they -- like **********ns -- bring all the problems with them.

aka108
January 20, 2014, 06:47 PM
He's simply in lock step with the POTUS. The scum in this Country is growing and then votes the big scums into important offices.

barnbwt
January 20, 2014, 07:15 PM
"For those NYer's who were insulted by your governor, he pretty much told you to vote with your feet. Maybe that's what you should do."

"Which is what he wants."

Just because he wants it, who's to say he's wrong? We can complain and moan about him being a "tyrant," "dictator," and all other manner of evil names (terms deserving of a lot more than being kicked out of office, if being used honestly/properly), but we seem to be missing the real question:

What will we do when there are no consequences for this behavior?

Yes, he's out of line. Yes, he's wrong, and on so many logical, moral, and legal levels. Yes, it's what we've known his ilk have sought for ever, and yes, their position is finally ensconced firmly enough that they are becoming honest, at long last. Because there is absolutely no threat that can be posed them at this point by dissenters. I think the only real "solution" at this point, is to go around the whole official democratic process (legally) and join the one approved political party, and work within its rotten interior. Hopefully, the outnumbered can still be vocal enough to have an impact early on in primary races while the vast majority of passive participants are waiting for the Party to tell them who to vote for. Absent help from the outside (and I find it increasingly hard to believe SCOTUS would harshly rebuff an institution as large and powerful as NYC, let alone have the influence to impose its will) this is really the only way left to have a contradictory political voice on the state level that isn't totally ignored and stifled.

TCB

Midwest
January 20, 2014, 08:04 PM
The Governor basically told four to five million law abiding people of New York State to go to hell.

stevek
January 20, 2014, 09:41 PM
Agree with all of the above. Personally I find it "refreshing" to see this discussed here on THR without it being shut down as a political discussion. We voted with our feet and left NJ to move back to a free America after banging our heads for years against the "Progressive" majority...

hacksaw
January 21, 2014, 02:26 AM
Bailed out of the sinking ship that is NY 12 years ago, moved to SC, bought my first house only 4 miles from a lovely beach. Great gun laws, employment options in my field could be a little better (I.T.) But am working overseas now and banking half my pay. Dont miss NY one little bit!

jim in Anchorage
January 21, 2014, 03:50 AM
I wonder if the Governer notices that I moved my corporation, it's employees, and it's assets from NY? We used to be based at the same airport where his state police helicopter is based, operating 5 jets, but now.... we're gone..... forever..... along with all of our tax revenue and impact on the local economy.... that just faded away.........

The truth is that he doesn't know about my company, or the others run by entrapreneurs like me who just very quietly go away. He might notice the lessening of taxes collected as businesses like mine just fold up and leave, but it's like a pool being slowly drained slowly. It's hard to see at first but as the shallow end becomes more and more exposed, the rate seems to increase faster and faster. Eventually the pool is empty.

He really ought to read Atlas Shrugged. I did. And I took my money, resources, and those of my employees (all who left with with me) with me when I left.

You know who notices? The lunch counter where we used to eat. The FBO where we used to buy jet fuel. The catering place that serviced us with food for the jets. AIRGAS no longer sells us nitrogen and oxygen. The Snap-On truck sells us no more tools. We don't buy our company truck at the local dealer, or have it serviced by a local mechanic. We don't pay rent, and my emplyees don't buy any of their services there any more either. No more haircuts, plumbers, or insurance. No dentists or music teachers get paid. Several less kids attend the school system. This is the trickle-down economy that *I* pulled the plug on. Not a comittee, or a stockholders meeting, or a corporate board. The governer upset one key player in the company that I founded, and that is me. The buck stopped here, and it was for the reason of eroding freedoms for myself and my emplyees that I left.

There are others just like me.....

Know what? The FBO that we used to buy a $million in jet fuel from just went bankrupt. They laid off ten people, and closed their doors. Wonder why? How's the economy there, Governer? I can't wait for it to fail, and when it does I'll be reading about it from a thousand miles away.


I did my part, and another state is happy that I've come to town.
One of the best posts I have read here, or anywhere. I wonder, when this is over, did Cuomo buy a single vote with this [the anti's where going to vote for him anyway] to offset the thousands that are now looking to vote AGAINST him? People that may not have voted otherwise?

Arkansas Paul
January 21, 2014, 10:51 AM
There's really no hope in NY for sane gun laws.

If people "vote with their feet" and leave, then no there's not.
All hope is not lost. I used to think Illinois was a lost cause but they are slowly being moved in the right direction. Granted it is because the SC forced them to, but I never thought I'd see the day you could get a CHL in Illinois.

I surely hope the pro 2A folks don't all pack up and leave. Then there would be no opposition to this commie and those like him. I hope they stay and fight the good fight.

Willie Sutton
January 21, 2014, 11:03 AM
"If people "vote with their feet" and leave, then no there's not"


Yes there is. The sooner places like this become completely failed states, without sufficient revenue to pay for the promises made to those who still remain, the sooner they will topple over and be able to be renewed. The sooner the remaining residents rebel because the entitlements that were promised are not being given, the sooner those making the promises will be thrown out of office. The only question that will remain is if there are sufficient entrapraneurs left to rebuild an economy. Look at Detroit as a smaller scale example. When businesses leave, what's left is nothing. It's just a matter of watching more and more rats fight for a smaller and smaller piece of cheese. Eventually it's all gone and the rats die off.

My decision was to help speed the process by removing the revenue stream that my firm represented from being used by the state, or it's residents. About 10% of the population drives 90% of the economy. If and when those 10% go elsewhere, taking their businesses with them, the balance of the population will either follow or starve. When they starve, they will rebel. It can't happen soon enough for me, who as I said previously will be reading about it from 1000 miles away.

Of course it's always easier to stay, and to rationalize that it's the right thing. People live complex lives and it's often easier to compromise than to take a stand. If that works for you, that's fine. Work, family, etc., all play a part in decisions we each make.

What I did was to change the calculus for my employees. They could come with me, or not. I left. They followed. I took my cheese with me when I left. Not even a scrap remains for the rats who stayed behind.


Willie

.



It only stands to reason that where there’s sacrifice, there’s someone collecting the sacrificial offerings. Where there’s service, there is someone being served. The man who speaks to you of sacrifice is speaking of slaves and masters, and intends to be the master.

We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission; which is the stage of the darkest periods of human history, the stage of rule by brute force.

A government is the most dangerous threat to man’s rights: it holds a legal monopoly on the use of physical force against legally disarmed victims.

Government “help” to business is just as disastrous as government persecution… the only way a government can be of service to national prosperity is by keeping its hands off.

Capitalism demands the best of every man – his rationality – and rewards him accordingly. It leaves every man free to choose the work he likes, to specialize in it, to trade his product for the products of others, and to go as far on the road of achievement as his ability and ambition will carry him.

The spread of evil is the symptom of a vacuum. Whenever evil wins, it is only by default: by the moral failure of those who evade the fact that there can be no compromise on basic principles.

The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals … it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government … it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen’s protection against the government.

Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others.

There’s no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren’t enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What’s there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced nor objectively interpreted and you create a nation of law-breakers.

The difference between a welfare state and a totalitarian state is a matter of time. The essential characteristic of socialism is the denial of individual property rights…

Whoever claims the right to redistribute the wealth produced by others is claiming the right to treat human beings as chattel.

When you see that trading is done, not by consent, but by compulsion – when you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing – when you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors – when you see that men get richer by graft and by pull than by work, and your laws don’t protect you against them, but protect them against you – when you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice – you may know that your society is doomed.

The hardest thing to explain is the glaringly evident which everybody had decided not to see.

We are now moving towards complete collectivism or socialism, a system under which everybody is enslaved to everybody.

The smallest minority on earth is the individual. those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities.

In the name of the best within you, do not sacrifice this world to those who are its worst. In the name of the values that keep you alive, do not let your vision of man be distorted by the ugly, the cowardly, the mindless in those who have never achieved his title. Do not lose your knowledge that man’s proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. Do not let your fire go out, spark by irreplaceable spark, in the hopeless swamps of the approximate, the not-quite, the not-yet, the not-at-all. Do not let the hero in your soul perish, in lonely frustration for the life you deserved, but have never been able to reach. Check your road and the nature of your battle. The world you desired can be won, it exists, it is real, it is possible, it’s yours.


Collected quotes of Ayn Rand

.

ATLDave
January 21, 2014, 11:15 AM
The really funny thing is this quote:
"“Some politicians out there can be bought for $10, and some politicians can’t be bought for $10 billion, you know? It’s a question about the person,” he said. ” … It’s not how much does it cost to buy a politician, it’s that a politician can be bought.” (Which is, as Newsday’s Yancey Roy noted on Twitter as the interview was going on, very similar to arguments that opponents of public financing have been making.)"

So Cuomo realizes that people who want to do bad things will do bad things, and those who don't want to do bad things won't do bad things... regardless of whether the most likely instrumentalities of those bad things are legal or prohibited.

Hmmm... that's almost exactly the same reasoning as "guns don't kill people, people kill people." Except the subject matter is big money donations. Like a great many people, Cuomo is blind to the important liberty interests in rights that he doesn't personally use or care about (e.g., guns), but has no problem seeing the inherent difficulties and problems in regulating a right that he does care about (campaign money and speech).

What a hypocrite.

Arkansas Paul
January 21, 2014, 11:38 AM
Willie, I think there's a difference in what you did and the average citizen leaving. The average citizen doesn't pump big $ into the economy. You didn't only vote with your feet. You voted with your wallet as well.

I'm just saying that if every 2A supporter packs up and leaves, who will be left to vote for politicians who support it.

I realize that this is an easy position for me to take since I live in a gun friendly state. I'm not pretending to know exactly what I would do and don't envy you guys at all.

ATLDave
January 21, 2014, 11:44 AM
Advising residents of anti-gun states to just leave is like advising a army to win a battle by retreating from every locale where the enemy appears in force. It's a fine short-term strategy for maximizing force protection. It doesn't really have much else going for it.

As suggested by Arkansas Paul, it's a different matter if you're talking about corporate divestment. But citizens - you know, the people who get to vote and sometimes persuade friends and stuff - leaving is just a step towards defeat.

When opposition to a policy is concentrated in just a few states, then that policy will soon win completely by way of federal law. American history is pretty clear on this point, actually.

tarosean
January 21, 2014, 11:55 AM
Maybe a class action for discrimination is in order..

Pizzapinochle
January 21, 2014, 12:00 PM
Full quote:

"You have a schism within the Republican Party. … They’re searching to define their soul, that’s what’s going on. Is the Republican party in this state a moderate party or is it an extreme conservative party? That’s what they’re trying to figure out. It’s a mirror of what’s going on in Washington. The gridlock in Washington is less about Democrats and Republicans. It’s more about extreme Republicans versus moderate Republicans.

… You’re seeing that play out in New York. … The Republican Party candidates are running against the SAFE Act — it was voted for by moderate Republicans who run the Senate! Their problem is not me and the Democrats; their problem is themselves. Who are they? Are they these extreme conservatives who are right-to-life, pro-assault-weapon, anti-gay? Is that who they are? Because if that’s who they are and they’re the extreme conservatives, they have no place in the state of New York, because that’s not who New Yorkers are.

If they’re moderate Republicans like in the Senate right now, who control the Senate — moderate Republicans have a place in their state. George Pataki was governor of this state as a moderate Republican; but not what you’re hearing from them on the far right.”"

JRH6856
January 21, 2014, 12:01 PM
After all, Hillary Clinton is the runaway favorite to win the nomination.

I keep hearing rumors that Hillary is going to get some pretty strong opposition from Michelle Obama. I wouldn't bet against it.

Vern Humphrey
January 21, 2014, 12:20 PM
The truth is that he doesn't know about my company, or the others run by entrapreneurs like me who just very quietly go away. He might notice the lessening of taxes collected as businesses like mine just fold up and leave, but it's like a pool being slowly drained slowly. It's hard to see at first but as the shallow end becomes more and more exposed, the rate seems to increase faster and faster. Eventually the pool is empty.
Interestingly enough, New York has a massive ad campaign to attract businesses, including touting low taxes. I think Cuomo knows what's happening, but can't figure out why.

Maybe a class action for discrimination is in order..

How about criminal action? For a governor to attack people because of their political orientation and attempt to drive them out of the state is clearly violation of civil rights under color of authority -- and that's a federal crime.

Willie Sutton
January 21, 2014, 12:34 PM
Read the Ayn Rand quotes I put above and think about them.

Cuomo and other looters like him are the existential enemy of business owners like me.



Willie

.

SilentStalker
January 21, 2014, 01:36 PM
What I find more alarming about this whole situation other than his actual quote is the fact that the problem that plagues NY politics actually is becoming a national problem. The deal is people are too blind to see it coming but its coming. Just wait until the next election cycle. Once the problem has developed deep roots its very hard to deal with.

ATLDave
January 21, 2014, 01:39 PM
I keep hearing rumors that Hillary is going to get some pretty strong opposition from Michelle Obama. I wouldn't bet against it.

Pfft. And now you know that the people telling you those things have absolutely no clue about actual politics. That ain't happening.

danez71
January 21, 2014, 03:46 PM
"If people "vote with their feet" and leave, then no there's not"

Yes there is. The sooner places like this become completely failed states, without sufficient revenue to pay for the promises made to those who still remain, the sooner they will topple over and be able to be renewed.
...
...
...

The only question that will remain is if there are sufficient entrapraneurs left to rebuild an economy. Look at Detroit as a smaller scale example. When businesses leave, what's left is nothing. It's just a matter of watching more and more rats fight for a smaller and smaller piece of cheese. Eventually it's all gone and the rats die off.





NYC is the financial capitol of the world. It isn't going to become a failed state.


Yes,,, lets look Detroit.

All of those jobs left how many decades ago? Its been what, 30 yrs or so?

After 30 yrs, is Detroit any better? NO! Its worse. Their economy still stinks. Their politician still stink. And their gun laws still stink.

The bulk of the residents are looking for the politicians to give them social aide and will vote for who ever promises the most.


Now lets look at CO. The CO residents that stayed and fought ousted some politicians. The companies (and people) that moved didn't accomplished didley squat to help CO or the rest of the country.


Retreating to the middle of the country is exactly what the anti 2A politician want.

This map is shows a 100 mile zone all around the USA. In that 100 mile zone lives 2/3 of the U.S. population.

Roughly 1/2 of the East and West coast is run by anti 2A politicans. Austin TX is just out side the 100 zone is has been anti for a long time now.






If people keep running away from the problem and retreating to the middle of the country, they will be literally surrounded by the anti's.

Those brave souls in DC and Chicago didn't run and hide.... they fought back in the courts and got the entire country favorable 2A SCOTUS decisions.

That's a plan that has been proven to work.

Running and trying to hurt a states economy is a plan that has proven to fail.

pseudonymity
January 21, 2014, 06:41 PM
I do not think New Yorkers should "vote with their feet" and leave the state -- after all, they have some responsibility for the current condition of the state. And when they move to another state, they -- like **********ns -- bring all the problems with them.

If you have not spent time in NY state, I am not sure that you can understand what the gun owners are facing in terms of responsibility. If you believe that the people who live in upstate NY are in any way similar to the NY city residents, nothing could be farther from the truth. Upstate NY and East Long Island really is gun country. Upstate is not a small area either - there are ~8 million people living outside the NYC area, and probably 4 million or more are gun owners. Sadly, we have to deal with ~11 million people packed into 7 of NYs 62 counties, and they just love to be controlled. They have been pushing gun control in those counties for more than a century.

To put that NYC metro voting into perspective - if every citizen in the states of Maine, New Hampshire, Kansas, Mississippi and New Mexico *combined* voted against some kind of gun control, the voters in just the NYC metro area voting for gun control would still be a larger number. We just do not have the numbers.

NY is a state in the same way Iraq is a country - somebody drew lines on a map years ago and now it requires the threat and actual use of force to keep the whole thing from falling apart. Many NY residents outside NYC would jump at the chance to split the state - it is always kind of a running joke outside NYC.

pseudonymity
January 21, 2014, 06:57 PM
If they’re moderate Republicans like in the Senate right now, who control the Senate — moderate Republicans have a place in their state. George Pataki was governor of this state as a moderate Republican; but not what you’re hearing from them on the far right.”"

Moderate Republicans in NY would be called socialists in other states. Pataki signed the NY version of the 94 AWB in to NY law, but without the expiration date. Bloomberg is a NY "moderate Republican".

It is no secret that often times the runner up in the Democratic party is the Republican candidate during the general election, since the NYC voters are going to go Democrat almost every time. Upstate the situation is reversed - recently in one county there was a heated battle for Republican candidate for sheriff. The Democratic party solution was to endorse the Conservative party candidate. Arguably the strongest 2A supporter in the race was actually running on the Democrat line.

orionengnr
January 21, 2014, 07:09 PM
Oh...trust me. Those of us who live elsewhere understand exactly what happens next.

People from California escape to Oregon, Washington, Nevada, and elsewhere. And they bring their politics with them.

It happened in Colorado to the extent that it turned the state blue, and what happened next?

People from New York have been infiltrating CT since I grew up in the 60s/70s. These days, people from Massachusetts escape to New Hampshire and Vermont, and do likewise.

Live in Florida? Do you have any idea of how many New Yorkers and New Jerseyites live part time (and vote full time) in your state?

All of the Sun Belt states have large populations of Snowbirds from Blue states. I guarantee that many of them have figured out how to vote from both residences--our voting laws are antiquated, and do not take this into account. And recent court decisions have gone the wrong way for honest voters.

The Donkey Party has a well-publicized plan to do the same thing in Texas and other Red States, and that plan is in full force.

They have no intention of staying in NY, MA, CA, MD, etc. They want to infiltrate every state and overturn the status quo. ...one state at a time.

Our idiot TX Governor Rick Perry gleefully invites CA businesses to relocate to TX. He is not smart enough to realize that they bring thousands (or tens, or hundreds of thousands) of Californians with them. Austin was lost to Socialists long ago. Houston is gone. Dallas is gone. Fort Worth is on the edge. As long as there are enough voters who live in the suburbs of these cities, we hold the advantage...but just barely.

Not a good long term plan. :banghead:

goon
January 21, 2014, 07:18 PM
If people keep running away from the problem and retreating to the middle of the country, they will be literally surrounded by the anti's.

Those brave souls in DC and Chicago didn't run and hide.... they fought back in the courts and got the entire country favorable 2A SCOTUS decisions.

That's a plan that has been proven to work.

Running and trying to hurt a states economy is a plan that has proven to fail.


I'm not sure I entirely disagree, but I'm also not willing to drop what I'm doing and move to rural NY to join up and fight the good fight.
Since I'm not willing to do that, I'd be a hypocrite to sit in the comfort of my "free" state and expect others to stay in NY and suffer.

danez71
January 21, 2014, 07:58 PM
I'm not sure I entirely disagree, but I'm also not willing to drop what I'm doing and move to rural NY to join up and fight the good fight.
Since I'm not willing to do that, I'd be a hypocrite to sit in the comfort of my "free" state and expect others to stay in NY and suffer.



Everyone has to make their own decisions.

All I'm saying is that the "vote with your feet" mentality has been proven to be NOT effective or affective to make any meaningful difference.

Sure. It might sound like you're 'sticking it to them' but the reality is that it does not work. Its been proven time and time again yet people here still suggest the same failed plan of 'run away'.


Some people (far too many people here) fail to recognize that the people fighting in anti states and winning court decisions are contributing heavily to other people being able to say they live in a 'free state'.


Those that choose to stay fight deserved to be supported and praised; not mocked and told to run away.

If it weren't for them, Heller and McDonald would have never happened. With out Heller and McDonald, EVERY state would be in a worse position than what they are in now.

Willie Sutton
January 21, 2014, 08:08 PM
"Running and trying to hurt a states economy is a plan that has proven to fail."

Leaving NY and immediately improving my own bottom line as a businessman while offering my employees a lower cost and higher quality of living is a winner for everyone within my own organization, and that's the only group with which I have a social contract. NY lost my tax revenue, which is their problem and one I could not care less about. Hurting them was not my intent, and if I do, or do not, is completely irrelevent to my decision making process. It's a byproduct of being true to my contract with myself. The fact is that they DID lose my revenue. If that means nothing becauise it's just noise lost in the signal, again I could care not a whit.

I'm a businessman, not a philanthropy. I make rational business decisions, not social statements. I need to live within the framework of the timing of my own lifespan, not to the timing of some nebulous long term social goal. Leaving was an enormous and immediate improvement in every possible way.


"All I'm saying is that the "vote with your feet" mentality has been proven to be NOT effective or affective to make any meaningful difference."

To whom?

You? Or some general sense of "us"?

Because in the end the only person you are resonsible for is you.

Moving from where you are a CRIMINAL for enjoying your RIGHTS into a place where your rights are respected and you are no longer a criminal is a meaningful difference for the person who counts: You.




Willie

.

danez71
January 21, 2014, 08:18 PM
Leaving NY and immediately improving my own bottom line as a businessman while offering my employees a lower cost and higher quality of living is a winner ..........

Which is why, in part, I said everyone needs to make their own decisions.

Some people move to those states for employment/business reasons. Some people move out for employment/business reasons.


However, judging by your previous posts, you're not thinking delusionally that NY cared at all that you moved your business.

The other businesses affected by you moving might/probably cared; but NY didn't.

goon
January 21, 2014, 09:02 PM
I understand Mr. Sutton's point.

In the case of NY, as pointed out by another poster, you'd need an inordinate number of voters to turn the tide the other way for the state. As for court cases, NY has been stuck with limits for years that the rest of us wouldn't put up with. In NYC people get letters demanding guns be surrendered or altered for having a .22 rifle that can hold more than 5 rounds. And hasn't the Sullivan Act been in effect since around 1911? Isn't the permit system in NYC to carry a handgun so politically connected that you basically have to be part of the ruling class to exercise your Constitutionally protected right?

No offense to New Yorkers - I know some of you are just plain stuck. But if something was going to work out in NY, wouldn't it have worked out by now? Even just a little?

3GunEric
January 21, 2014, 09:14 PM
A study of history and demographics = no hope for saving places like NY. I voted with my feet and abandoned Maryland. Been so happy living in a place where freedom still thrives. To those who argue that they will stay in places like NY and make a stand there - good luck. Reminds me of people who refused to depart Germany while the getting was still good.

The situation is so sad!

Midwest
January 21, 2014, 09:15 PM
I understand Mr. Sutton's point.

In the case of NY, as pointed out by another poster, you'd need an inordinate number of voters to turn the tide the other way for the state. As for court cases, NY has been stuck with limits for years that the rest of us wouldn't put up with. In NYC people get letters demanding guns be surrendered or altered for having a .22 rifle that can hold more than 5 rounds. And hasn't the Sullivan Act been in effect since around 1911? Isn't the permit system in NYC to carry a handgun so politically connected that you basically have to be part of the ruling class to exercise your Constitutionally protected right?

No offense to New Yorkers - I know some of you are just plain stuck. But if something was going to work out in NY, wouldn't it have worked out by now? Even just a little?
I don't live or ever have lived in NY, I have visited there a few times. I always wondered why in the 102+ years the Sullivan Law has been in effect, I have never heard any legal challenges to the law. There might have been legal challenges, but I never heard of any. The original idea of the permit system (Sullivan Law) was politically motivated.

I read on some other site that New York State has 4 to 5 million gun owners. Imagine if it was possible to mobilize all those gun owners to vote for a pro-gun candidate?

GiorgioG
January 21, 2014, 09:25 PM
I read on some other site that New York State has 4 to 5 million gun owners. Imagine if it was possible to mobilize all those gun owners to vote for a pro-gun candidate?


NYC has 8+ million residents (not to mention the surrounding areas) who are largely anti-gun. So even if you could mobilize 100% of gun owners...they'd still lose and that's why NY sucks for gun owners and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

Midwest
January 21, 2014, 10:04 PM
I forgot to mention the site where it says that there are 4 to 5 million gun owners in New York State. The site is called "thebatavian" and the link is below.


http://thebatavian.com/howard-owens/scope-president-safe-act-pushing-gun-owners-toward-greater-political-awareness/38947

"With some four to five million gun owners in New York, he thinks there are enough votes among those who value the Second Amendment to sway any statewide election.

SCOPE is pursuing a multi-election strategy aimed at eventually getting the SAFE Act repealed.

This year, SCOPE is concentrating on county legislature elections with a goal of voting out some of the legislators across the state who voted against a resolution calling for the repeal of the SAFE Act."

carbuncle
January 21, 2014, 10:11 PM
I love upstate NY, but this foolishness has me looking to stay away. If I know the state is oenly hostile to me and my family, I see no reason to spend my money at Indian Lake or and of the businesses on the way there and back.

undeRGRound
January 21, 2014, 10:25 PM
When I heard this ******* screaming this, it made me think that old audio clips of Adolph Hitler sounded like a voice of reason compared to this POS "governor".
You guys need a recall election, and if that does not work, maybe a revolt. NY State is DOOMED unless something at least semi-radical is done. Recalls at a minimum, it seems. But many states are not far behind. I bet Mario (dad) is turning over in his grave.
Wow, simply WOW :what:

danez71
January 21, 2014, 11:22 PM
NYC has 8+ million residents (not to mention the surrounding areas) who are largely anti-gun. So even if you could mobilize 100% of gun owners...they'd still lose and that's why NY sucks for gun owners and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.


Correct. There are places that the Pro 2A'ers are just plain out numbered.

In those places it's likely that progress will have to be made through court cases rather than voting.

Which is how Heller and McDonald came to be. There was a "victim" that chose to stand up and fight back rather than run away.

Those SCOTUS pro 2A decisions helped the whole country.

Because of 2 people (and their lawyers), who chose to fight to instead of run, IL and DC have turned the corner.

There is still a long ways to go but pro 2A history was made because of those two people who chose to stand up and fight for their rights instead of run.



IL had the most restrictive gun laws in the country. The SCOTUS acknowledge it.
They PROVED that NO state is a complete lost cause (..... unless you give up and run away.)

Willie Sutton
January 22, 2014, 12:17 AM
"There is still a long ways to go but pro 2A history was made because of those two people who chose to stand up and fight for their rights instead of run."


Really? Two people?

Their names were on a case fought for by lawyers. Those lawyers are paid for by who?

Here's who: They are paid for by people like me (who puts five figures a year or more into the SAF and the NRA/ILA), and by guys like joe-sixpack who sends in $50 to the SAF when he can.

Note that:

1: You can fight the fight without living there yourself.

2: You can live there yourself and not do a damned thing to help.

Which position has more value?



I don't need to live in NJ or run my business in NY to participate in their battles. I'm quite happy to retain more of what I earn (thus freeing me to donate more to litigation) while enjoying a better quality of life elsewhere.


Leaving does not mean quitting.



Willie

.

RetiredUSNChief
January 22, 2014, 12:39 AM
Stuff like this is going to absolutely kill Cuomo's chances for national office -- even his chances of getting the Democratic nomination. Either he's stupid, politically, or he's very smart, figuring he's consolidating his position in New York politics. I tend to think it's the latter. After all, Hillary Clinton is the runaway favorite to win the nomination. She's officially a New York resident, and the Constitution says that electors cannot vote for two candidates from the same state, so a Cuomo VP bid is precluded.

No offense here, but if you truly believe this, then you evidently don't have a very good grasp of politics and the election process.

Take a good, long, hard look at the electoral votes each state has, then take note of which are of a particularly liberal bent and the electoral votes they command. It takes 270 electoral votes for a presidential candidate to be elected. CA has 55, NY has 29 and IL has 20. Those three states alone, liberal bastions all, total 104 electoral votes. Add in a few other states that historically also vote liberal, then toss in just a few other key states and suddenly it's not so uncertain at all that Cuomo couldn't be elected if he won the DNC bid for candidacy.

The point I'm making here is NEVER to make such an assumption, and most especially NEVER make it with respect to such a politically powerful and wealthy politician. The moment you do, you're very likely to find you've fatally underestimated events.

In any election, it ain't over until the fat lady sings and all the chad is counted.

goon
January 22, 2014, 01:38 AM
Correct. There are places that the Pro 2A'ers are just plain out numbered.

In those places it's likely that progress will have to be made through court cases rather than voting.

Which is how Heller and McDonald came to be. There was a "victim" that chose to stand up and fight back rather than run away.

Those SCOTUS pro 2A decisions helped the whole country.

Because of 2 people (and their lawyers), who chose to fight to instead of run, IL and DC have turned the corner.

There is still a long ways to go but pro 2A history was made because of those two people who chose to stand up and fight for their rights instead of run.



IL had the most restrictive gun laws in the country. The SCOTUS acknowledge it.
They PROVED that NO state is a complete lost cause (..... unless you give up and run away.)

OK, but what fights have come out of NY?
What court cases are there for us to support?
And what have they been doing since 1911 when the Sullivan Act was passed?
Why isn't anyone challenging the permit system the way restrictions were challenged and beaten in IL?


What is going on in NY that makes it worth it for the ladies and gents who are there to stay and suffer and fight the good fight?
And aside from just holding on the little bit they still have, what are they actively doing there to win real rights back?

JRH6856
January 22, 2014, 01:49 AM
How many practicing Catholics are there in New York? Cuomo pretty much showed them the door as well.

Midwest
January 22, 2014, 01:53 AM
I don't need to live in NJ or run my business in NY to participate in their battles. I'm quite happy to retain more of what I earn (thus freeing me to donate more to litigation) while enjoying a better quality of life elsewhere.

Leaving does not mean quitting.

Willie


I agree 100% and I believe my proposal to start a separate pro-gun organization just solely to raise money for pro-gun candidates in only anti-gun states,... is a valid proposal. Whereas someone in Alaska, Idaho, Texas or wherever can contribute $1 or two for a pro-gun candidate in an anti-gun state.

We have what? 100 million gun owners in this country?

If all the gun owners in this country just contributed $2 each per year.

We would have 200 million dollars PER YEAR to go DIRECTLY for the election of pro-gun candidates in anti-gun areas and states.

That is $800,000,000 every four years for one purpose, to elect pro-gun candidates in anti-gun states, not even Bloomberg and Soros could match that.

JRH6856
January 22, 2014, 02:49 AM
We have what? 100 million gun owners in this country?

The problem is, most of those gun owners are not single issue voters and for many, the pro-gun candidates are often as much a blithering idiot on other issues than may be just as important to the voters as the anti candidate is on guns.

Midwest
January 22, 2014, 12:26 PM
$2 a year per gun owner. No membership required, Nothing to join. The money is going for one purpose and one purpose only. To help elect pro-gun candidates in anti-gun states and areas only.

If gun owners aren't willing to spend $2 a year in hopes of changing the political landscape in anti-gun states where they do not reside in order to help their fellow gun owners then we will at some point lose our rights. What happens in NJ, NY or California...doesn't stay there. It tends to propagate to other states, or to the whole country like I mentioned with Lautenberg, Hughes, Dodd and others.

Politicians from NJ that you had no chance of voting against, affected your rights in Alaska, Arizona, Floria and Maine as well as the rest of the country. We will at some point end up like the UK and Australia, where maybe the government will put all guns except some single shot, shot guns under the NFA.

What happens in anti-gun states and areas will eventually affect those who live in so called "free states". Look what happened in Colorado, surely anti-gun legislation wouldn't happen in a free state like Colorado...well it did. Is your state next?


If had we done this sooner, maybe we would not be having these threads like this today. If we had done this sooner, maybe we would be having threads about pro-gun legislation passing in NY, NJ, CA, MD and other states. When was the last time you heard about pro-gun legislation passing in those states?

If Bloomberg can raise money, or spend his own money to push his anti-gun organization... MAIG . Then surely 100 million gun owners can raise money to push pro-gun candidates (and pro-gun legislation) in anti-gun areas.

If we don't start some kind of national organization to raise money solely to help elect pro-gun candidates in anti-gun areas. Then what is the answer?

goon
January 22, 2014, 01:05 PM
The problem is, most of those gun owners are not single issue voters and for many, the pro-gun candidates are often as much a blithering idiot on other issues than may be just as important to the voters as the anti candidate is on guns.

True.

One mistake the RKBA community has made was not seeking allies on both the right and the left.

Hokkmike
January 22, 2014, 01:29 PM
What disturbs me almost as much as his words is the fact that the big stream media have not and will not pick up on this and cover it.

JRH6856
January 22, 2014, 02:01 PM
What disturbs me almost as much as his words is the fact that the big stream media have not and will not pick up on this and cover it.

“‘Dog bites man’-that is not news, ‘Man bites dog’-that is news.”

Politicians make fools of themselves everyday. That is not news.

danez71
January 22, 2014, 05:54 PM
"There is still a long ways to go but pro 2A history was made because of those two people who chose to stand up and fight for their rights instead of run."


Really? Two people?

Their names were on a case fought for by lawyers.
...
...
....

Leaving does not mean quitting.


Willie



Did you not read this that I said?

Because of 2 people (and their lawyers), who chose to fight to instead of run, IL and DC have turned the corner.


In order for there to be a case to get to SCOTUS, there has to be a victim; some ones Right that was denied. If everyone had left (as many here promote) there would not have been a victim and therefore no SCOTUS case.

Don't trivialize those 2 people. They had to sacrifice a lot beyond just living there. If you have ever listen to people that have been a party in a SCOTUS case you'd realize they had to dedicate a significant part of their life and $$ to be part of the loooong drawn out process of a SCOTUS case.


Now lets take this to an extreme. If all of the pro 2A people in CA, NY, NJ, HI, MD, CT, IL, etc etc all left and the states continued to pass more restrictive laws unchallenged..... then suddenly we have national news stating that "A wave of anti gun laws are sweeping the nation unchallenged... marking a new age of safety for our children."





OK, but what fights have come out of NY? What court cases are there for us to support?
And what have they been doing since 1911 when the Sullivan Act was passed?
Why isn't anyone challenging the permit system the way restrictions were challenged and beaten in IL?


What is going on in NY that makes it worth it for the ladies and gents who are there to stay and suffer and fight the good fight?
And aside from just holding on the little bit they still have, what are they actively doing there to win real rights back?

Wow... a lot of questions. Did you try look for your self or did you just assume there want anything good and I'd be stumped?

It only took me about 10 seconds of googling to find the 2 links below that essentially address everyone of your questions.

Recently won in the NY Court of Appeals:
http://www.nraila.org/legal/articles/2014/rights-of-part-time-new-york-residents-affirmed.aspx


This small victory is further being pursued:
http://www.nraila.org/legal/articles/2014/mixed-trial-court-ruling-on-new-yorks-safe-act-ensures-appellate-action-will-follow.aspx



People can throw all the mud they want to try to prove their misguided, but well intended, point of view on this. But the FACTS are (and I'll reiterate):

*Retreating from a Constitutional Rights issue has never been proven to work.
*Boycotting or otherwise trying to hurt a states economy in effort to gain/restore Constitutional Rights has never worked.

I've asked many times here on THR for examples contrary to the above and no one has even been able to cite 1 example.


On the other hand.
*Voting has proven to work.
*Court cases, which necessitate a victim, have been proven to work.

76shuvlinoff
January 22, 2014, 06:33 PM
Okaaaay there's no place for me in NY, I'm really good with that.

3GunEric
January 22, 2014, 07:50 PM
How many practicing Catholics are there in New York? Cuomo pretty much showed them the door as well.
The vast majority of Catholics voted for Obama - twice. Cuomo is probably one as well. I was raised Catholic but their left-wing politics is just too much to bear.

goon
January 22, 2014, 08:09 PM
Wow... a lot of questions. Did you try look for your self or did you just assume there want anything good and I'd be stumped?

It only took me about 10 seconds of googling to find the 2 links below that essentially address everyone of your questions.

I didn't search for myself... Mostly because NY has never been on my radar as a worthwhile state to live in. The SAFE act makes this even more true. Nothing short of a SCOTUS ruling that erases SAFE, the 10 round magazine limit, and everything else including the Sullivan Act would ever entice me to live there.

Sorry to say this, but even the "victory" with the SAFE Act, doesn't that only give them back the ability to load legally owned 10 round magazines with 10 rounds? The NRA-ILA notes that the ruling is still pretty harsh on our beloved self-loading rifles.
Winning back the ability to not be prosecuted for loading a neutered magazine to its neutered capacity...
I guess I can see how some people could call that a victory. Maybe.
But from what I'm reading, the law isn't being objected to for violating the RKBA, it's being objected to because it's a horribly thought-out and poorly written law. A better written law imposing the same restrictions would apparently hold up.

And on the rights of part-time NY residents, I find myself asking "what rights?"
I can't understand why anyone would even want to be a part-time NY resident in the first place.

People can throw all the mud they want to try to prove their misguided, but well intended, point of view on this. But the FACTS are (and I'll reiterate):

*Retreating from a Constitutional Rights issue has never been proven to work.
*Boycotting or otherwise trying to hurt a states economy in effort to gain/restore Constitutional Rights has never worked.

I've asked many times here on THR for examples contrary to the above and no one has even been able to cite 1 example.


On the other hand.
*Voting has proven to work.
*Court cases, which necessitate a victim, have been proven to work.

Do you live in NY?

Voting isn't going to work there. It's the proverbial vote with one sheep and a dozen wolves voting about what's for dinner. In NY, you are going to get eaten. And your governor is going to enjoy every bite. I've got some choice names for the man that will be edited out if I post them on THR, but the fact remains, a bunch of morons elected him and he's set his sights on people like us. Except I'm out of his reach... I'll never live in his state. But you... maybe you are in his reach. He'd be happy to stick an "extremist" like you in a cage.
Forgive me, but I can't imagine why anyone would want to endure that.

And as you say, court cases require a victim to even get started.
A victim who has no guarantee that he's got even the slightest chance of winning. And the victims in NY shouldn't have ever been made into victims in the first place.
And God forbid they ever find one of you with one of those illegal 30 round AR magazines. Then you'll find out what it really means to be victimized by your government... the same one that your tax dollars fund.

barnbwt
January 22, 2014, 08:56 PM
"Sorry to say this, but even the "victory" with the SAFE Act, doesn't that only give them back the ability to load legally owned 10 round magazines with 10 rounds?"

If after all these years, NY(C) has finally hit the bottom of the black hole --and it's been a long, long way down so far-- and ends up being forced to recognize the human and American rights of their under-represented citizens, this is progress of a monumental scale. You have to hit rock bottom before you recover, darkest before the dawn, and all manner of other clichés, but they're right. Think about it this way; that court victory means we won't have to worry about that particular assault on our rights (or even a sub-max magazine capacity limitation, by extension) for the foreseeable future.

Us: 1, them:100yrs. It takes more than a day to clear the Apple Isle of snakes. Just so long as we keep scoring :cool:

TCB

Baba Louie
January 22, 2014, 09:17 PM
What ever happened to "jury nullification"? Could that still be a valid tool in this S.A.F.E. Act regard?

RetiredUSNChief
January 22, 2014, 09:24 PM
Jury nullification requires the jury to essentially agree that the law is stupid and the person on trial shouldn't be convicted under it, even if they believe the person is guilty.

Figure the odds of getting an entire jury to agree on this, even if they understood it.


EDIT:

An interesting read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification#Judicial_opinion

SleazyRider
January 22, 2014, 09:31 PM
Okaaaay there's no place for me in NY, I'm really good with that.
Nor I. Problem is … I live here!

goon
January 22, 2014, 09:51 PM
Think about it this way; that court victory means we won't have to worry about that particular assault on our rights (or even a sub-max magazine capacity limitation, by extension) for the foreseeable future.

I could be off on this because I'm not a lawyer. Legalese isn't my native tongue...
but from what I'm getting from the ruling, the law isn't being set aside because the magazine capacity restriction is judged as an infringement, but because the law essentially set up law-abiding citizens to break it by allowing the ownership of 10 round magazines but setting the limit at seven rounds. (I guess the argument that "the temptation was just too strong to resist" is valid in NY courts.)
Still, that doesn't preclude an outright ban on any magazine over 7 rounds. If they can outright ban a 30 round magazine, why not do the same thing with a 10 round magazine?

Seven round magazines exist for a great many guns, 10 round magazines could be altered to only hold seven easily enough, and 5 round magazines are readily available for most rifles. I have the sinking feeling that even if this is overturned for good, New Yorkers will just find themselves facing a more well-crafted law that's just as bad.
As you note, it's been a long time since NY has felt freedom. I fear that the population of that state has gone so long without it that they no longer even realize what they don't have.
Ain't no judicial remedy for that.

JRH6856
January 22, 2014, 10:08 PM
I fear that the population of that state has gone so long without it that they no longer even realize what they don't have.

Or care to have it returned to them or retained by anyone else. I have worked with quite a few in NYC who certainly feel this way.

Ain't no judicial remedy for that.

Doubled

danez71
January 23, 2014, 12:33 AM
I didn't search for myself... Mostly because NY has never been on my radar as a worthwhile state to live in. The SAFE act makes this even more true. Nothing short of a SCOTUS ruling that erases SAFE, the 10 round magazine limit, and everything else including the Sullivan Act would ever entice me to live there.
.

Unfortunately I agree. Its going to take court cases to restore some states.

But it CAN be done. IL and DC are proof of that. They were both worse than NY.




Sorry to say this, but even the "victory" with the SAFE Act, doesn't that only give them back the ability to load legally owned 10 round magazines with 10 rounds? The NRA-ILA notes that the ruling is still pretty harsh on our beloved self-loading rifles.
Winning back the ability to not be prosecuted for loading a neutered magazine to its neutered capacity...
I guess I can see how some people could call that a victory. Maybe.
.

Incremental steps my friend. States like NY, CA, IL, MD, CT etc didn't get to the point they are now over night.

Many here have said "death by a thousand cuts". Short of a fix all SCOTUS ruling (which wont happen) its going to take a long time to fix those thousand cuts.



And on the rights of part-time NY residents, I find myself asking "what rights?"
I can't understand why anyone would even want to be a part-time NY resident in the first place.
.

But thats you (honestly.. me too :o ) But again, incremental steps. The NY judged ruled that part time residents are entitled to those rights. That's a victory in NY for Pro 2A whether or not you (or I) want to live there. That's IS a victory!




Do you live in NY?

Voting isn't going to work there. It's the proverbial vote with one sheep and a dozen wolves voting about what's for dinner. In NY, you are going to get eaten. And your governor is going to enjoy every bite. I've got some choice names for the man that will be edited out if I post them on THR, but the fact remains, a bunch of morons elected him and he's set his sights on people like us. Except I'm out of his reach... I'll never live in his state. But you... maybe you are in his reach. He'd be happy to stick an "extremist" like you in a cage.
Forgive me, but I can't imagine why anyone would want to endure that.

.

No I don't. I grew up in CA. Moved to AZ. And have moved back to CA.

You're right. Voting probably isn't a likely solution in a number of states. Court is. And its proven to be more productive than any "vote with your feet" campaign.

As far as the last sentence, I don't see it that way. ALL of us in the USA cant own what ever gun we want so there is govt restriction for all of us.

Personally, I'm not into the AR/AK type stuff anyways but I don't think they should be banned and I'll vote and fight for the right for all of us to be able to own them. I'm not much into shotguns either but I'll fight for those too. I'll fight for no more additions to the "thousand cuts".

I don't and wont give away my happiness to the Govt. I wont allow them to control my 'being'.





And as you say, court cases require a victim to even get started.
A victim who has no guarantee that he's got even the slightest chance of winning. And the victims in NY shouldn't have ever been made into victims in the first place.
.

All true. However........

The same could be said for a womens right to vote.

They didn't run to the few states that allowed them to vote. They banned together in each state and from multiple states. They won state victories and eventually a national/federal victory.

Its a lesson in history that more people here should recognize here instead of spewing out catchy phrases that have been proven to be non-effective.

RetiredUSNChief
January 23, 2014, 07:37 AM
Throughout history, the rights and privileges of the common man were hard won from many battles on many battlefields. Rights and privileges were NEVER just "given" to the common man by the powerful...they were TAKEN.

Whether by combat, voting, court, or any other method, every gain was, at some point, the result of those who made the necessary sacrifices to gain those benefits.

Those in power in NY have made their play. Those who wish to contest this will do so by making great sacrifices along the way, for the ultimate benefit of everybody. And it won't be quick, easy, or cheap.

SC Shooter
January 23, 2014, 07:50 AM
The really sad thing is that this attitude in NY State is nothing new. Having grown up in the Upstate, we learned very early that the attitudes and philosophies of those from "The City" were much different from the rest of the state. There is a real reaon why NY's population has decreased in recent years and why they say Florida will soon overtake NY.

RetiredUSNChief
January 23, 2014, 08:03 AM
It most certainly is nothing new...the power struggle between the powerful and the common man has been going on since prehistoric times.

Vern Humphrey
January 24, 2014, 05:01 PM
If you have not spent time in NY state, I am not sure that you can understand what the gun owners are facing in terms of responsibility. If you believe that the people who live in upstate NY are in any way similar to the NY city residents, nothing could be farther from the truth.
To those who understand and love the Constitution I say, stay in New York. Clean up your own state.

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