How do you feels about this pistol?


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jjones45
January 18, 2014, 12:11 PM
http://youtu.be/hnu3phoC3lM

This is interesting indeed, but I have got to see it tested first.

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Walt Sherrill
January 18, 2014, 12:20 PM
If -- and that's a big IF -- it is as accurate as they claim, and the people running the company aren't complete dolts, it should do very well. Impressive concept. 3" at 100 yards is very good and comparable to (or better than) a SIG P-210. (That said, I don't do much pistol work at 100 yards.)

Nom de Forum
January 18, 2014, 12:43 PM
If -- and that's a big IF -- it is as accurate as they claim, and the people running the company aren't complete dolts, it should do very well. Impressive concept. 3" at 100 yards is very good and comparable to (or better than) a SIG P-210. (That said, I don't do much pistol work at 100 yards.)

Ditto.

IF, it is as reliable, light, available and inexpensive as a Glock/M&P it may have quite a future. I've seen many new wonder pistols over the years that were supposed to be revolutionary but didn't live up to the hype, the most famous being the Bren 10. I would certainly consider it, as better accuracy is always preferable if it doesn't compromise reliability, firepower, and handling.

beatledog7
January 18, 2014, 12:59 PM
Not much explanation of how it works. He sort of tried, but missed the mark.

bannockburn
January 18, 2014, 01:44 PM
Something I would be mildly interested in provided it establishes a decent track record (reliability, durability, and accuracy), after it's been used extensively in the real world.

oss117
January 18, 2014, 02:08 PM
Looks like a competitor to the Pedersen action in the Remington R51. Different product classes obviously, but both have fixed, non-tilting barrels and utilize alternative means to lock the chamber temporarily during fire. Both have the advantage of lowering the barrel axis.

tarosean
January 18, 2014, 02:09 PM
It's another plastic gun in the sea of them

snapshot762
January 18, 2014, 02:09 PM
Very interesting!

jjones45
January 18, 2014, 02:15 PM
Looks sort of like a mix between a keltec pmr and a glock.

Nom de Forum
January 18, 2014, 02:19 PM
Not much explanation of how it works. He sort of tried, but missed the mark.

It appears to be simply using the short recoil principle for locking. Substituting a rotating locking block for a rotating or pivoting barrel. The barrel is not fixed, it moves straight back a short distance. The locking block appears to not fall straight down, but slightly rotate around the barrel. The Pedersen system on the new R51 has a completely different locking principle for locking that involves both blowback and a pivoting breech block.

TennJed
January 18, 2014, 02:21 PM
It's another plastic gun in the sea of them






but it is actually different

PabloJ
January 18, 2014, 02:25 PM
http://youtu.be/hnu3phoC3lM

This is interesting indeed, but I have got to see it tested first.
I shot one from KelTec in .22WRM. Few too many screws fro my taste, but not bad gun otherwise.:scrutiny:

Mike1234567
January 18, 2014, 02:56 PM
What is the advantage of this design vs. other non-tilt-barrel offerings other than the barrel is more easily replaceable?

snapshot762
January 18, 2014, 03:54 PM
It's another plastic gun in the sea of them
I thought the same thing up until the aluminum frames were mentioned.

chris in va
January 18, 2014, 04:34 PM
I think we'd better pay attention. The low bore axis, fixed barrel design might supplant the tilt barrel norm in a hurry.

5-SHOTS
January 18, 2014, 04:47 PM
It's very different from the other polymer pistols. It has a falling block barrel lock sistem, something never seen before. It has at least three patent pendings.
Problem is that it's three years that is presented at various shows and never at shops.
They are claming it's going to be released to italian gun shops since september 2012: still nothing.

TestPilot
January 18, 2014, 04:51 PM
More choices the better.

Edarnold
January 18, 2014, 05:43 PM
According to the TAC TV show this week, they made 3,000 of these in 2013 and are ramping up to full production for 2014. The fact that they have the production facilities of Tanfoglio to get the guns made makes them look like the real thing, not somebody working out of their machine shop in Ruritania.

jfrey
January 18, 2014, 06:29 PM
I saw Larry Vickers shooting this gun on TAC TV a couple of weeks ago in Russia. Seems like it may be their new military pistol. It may be good from a low bore axis standpoint but I'll keep what I've got for now. I still prefer the stuff JMB and Gaston designed.

Ascot500
January 18, 2014, 07:18 PM
I always thought that a semi-auto that did not require the barrel to tilt would be inherently more accurate.
After I tested a CZ-52, CZ-82 and an HK PSP I found out that they are not.

Kp321
January 18, 2014, 07:34 PM
The locking mechanism looks very similar the that used on the Lahti (sp?) pistols in the late '30's.

Sam1911
January 18, 2014, 07:39 PM
"For the last 100 years ... every other semi-automatic pistol has been a variation on the Browning theme..."

Dang. Could have delivered his whole spiel without an off-putting and blatant mis-statement right up front. I'm sure he muddled what he meant to say, but ... whoops.

Walt Sherrill
January 18, 2014, 08:59 PM
I always thought that a semi-auto that did not require the barrel to tilt would be inherently more accurate.

After I tested a CZ-52, CZ-82 and an HK PSP I found out that they are not.

Most serious shooters would probably argue that fixed-barreled guns ARE inherently more accurate than other designs -- but that's not the same a non-tilting systems, like found in the Beretta/Stoeger Cougar, or the CZ-52.

The H&K P7 guns (the PSP was the first of that family, I think), ARE renowned for their accuracy. If the one you shot wasn't accurate, it needed to be serviced or repaired, or you needed to spend more time with it. The P7 family of weapons are complex and were costly to produce; some other guns offer "almost as good" performance for a lot less money.

Accuracy generally boils down to a "good enough" design and a lot of care taken in production and fitting so that the SLOP that allows the barrel and sights to diverge is reduced to a minimum.

nwilliams
January 18, 2014, 09:25 PM
I wish that I had seen this gun when I was at Shot, I even stopped by the Arsenal booth but I must have overlooked it.

Ever since I first learned about the Russian Strizh pistol I was kinda hoping it would eventually get imported.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012/06/20/russian-armed-forces-adopting-9x19mm-strizh-pistol/

Nom de Forum
January 18, 2014, 09:25 PM
Thanks Walt for your confirmation that I am a serious shooter.:D Fixed barrels do have the inherent accuracy advantage if all else is equal.

Hometeached1
January 18, 2014, 10:03 PM
Personally I think it makes a Glock look pretty.:D If it shoots good and depending on the price might pick one up at some point.

C0untZer0
January 18, 2014, 10:17 PM
The YouTube video was not good - they should have created a computer model to show how it works, a quick trip to their website doesn't turn up a computer model, it may be there but it doesn't jump out at you. the video they have is 95% dramatic fluff and only 5% real substance.

The long barreled version might interest me, but then again, why not just get a 9mm carbine?

ritepath
January 18, 2014, 10:45 PM
Bertaurus-tec

McCrapper
January 18, 2014, 11:27 PM
I was really trying to picture the muzzle flip and then the woman came into the picture at 2:47. My personal muzzle ship showed about 7-8 degrees....

Big_Bullet
January 19, 2014, 12:15 AM
As soon as he said aluminum, that ruined it for me. Aluminum and center fires don't mix we'll. Poor in the wear and tear department.

BB

stevek
January 19, 2014, 08:40 AM
Any idea on what the price will be?

5-SHOTS
January 19, 2014, 09:03 AM
Any idea on what the price will be?
Around 700 euros here (Glock are 600). I guess ALOT less in USA.

SFsc616171
January 19, 2014, 09:04 AM
First, the guy was wrong in his statement that "for over 100 years, (snip), every semi-auto has been a copy of the Browning system."

IT AIN'T BEEN A HUNDRED YEAR ANNIVERSARY YET! THIS AIN'T 2035!!!

IMHO, if you can't carry in a verifiable Condition One, without all the extra buttons and gizmos, don't carry a semi-auto, because it might very well go off, and you would get hurt, which I do not want.

That pistol looked ugly.

However, THIS looks beautiful:
http://s906.photobucket.com/user/SFsc616171/media/05102010166.jpg.html

shockwave
January 19, 2014, 09:12 AM
It looks like a Hi-Point so... that's a non-starter. Ugly gun. Doesn't matter how accurate it is, it's just something so horrible looking that buying one is not conceivable.

C0untZer0
January 19, 2014, 09:45 AM
I'm not a John Moses Browning history buff but from what I remember he would work on several designs at once - rifle/shotgun/machinegun/pistol. So some of the ideas that resulted in the locked breach pistol design might have originated as early as 1898-1899. By 1906 the basic design of the what would become the 1911 was in place. In 1910, Browning's gun would pass a 6000 round field test with no malfunctions that would make it the most successful gun to pass the field tests and it was adopted by the Army on March 29th 1911.

Obviously that was over 100 years ago... So I think the Arsenal Strike One sales rep meant to highlight that most pistols do use a tilting barrel to lock the breach. He left out a lot of other designs like John Pedersen's M51, Carl Walther's P38, P1 and P5, HK P7 gas-delayed blowback, Steyr GB gas-delayed blowback, and some other designs I'm probably leaving out...

Nom de Forum
January 19, 2014, 09:46 AM
First, the guy was wrong in his statement that "for over 100 years, (snip), every semi-auto has been a copy of the Browning system."

IT AIN'T BEEN A HUNDRED YEAR ANNIVERSARY YET! THIS AIN'T 2035!!!

IMHO, if you can't carry in a verifiable Condition One, without all the extra buttons and gizmos, don't carry a semi-auto, because it might very well go off, and you would get hurt, which I do not want.

That pistol looked ugly.

However, THIS looks beautiful:
http://s906.photobucket.com/user/SFsc616171/media/05102010166.jpg.html

You are correct. As pointed out in a previous post every other semiauto has not been a copy of the Browning system.

You are incorrect about the age of the Browning system. It has been more than 100 years since the birth of the Browning system. The Browning system is not the P-35 Browning High Power system. The Browning system is the use of a tilting barrel temporarily locked to the slide for short recoil operation. I think the patent for it was issued in 1897.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I think it looks much better than the tacticool BHP photo you posted.

Luger_carbine
January 19, 2014, 09:50 AM
and some other designs I'm probably leaving out...

Yes, you're leaving out Georg J. Luger's toggle-lock design of 1898.

mgmorden
January 19, 2014, 09:55 AM
Could be interesting. Originally though they had talked about making a version of this with a steel frame (which I don't hear any reference to anymore). That would have been far more tempting.

There are a lot of people in USPSA Production that shoot striker fired guns for the consistent trigger pull. There are also some who shoot steel framed guns like the CZ-75 which is heavier (and recoils less due to the weight).

Problem is, there doesn't appear to be any good steel framed striker fired gun so you can't have both.

Pilot
January 19, 2014, 09:59 AM
I like the concept, and I like that it is an aluminum frame, and not polymer.

JDR
January 19, 2014, 10:46 AM
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=193823&stc=1&d=1390146110

That company Arsenal Arms, also makes this double barreled 1911. I saw Larry Vickers try this one out on TAC TV.

oss117
January 19, 2014, 11:35 AM
Yes, you're leaving out Georg J. Luger's toggle-lock design of 1898.

Hugo Borchardt designed the toggle-lock mechanism in 1893 for the C-93 pistol. Georg Luger turned from an ungainly T-shaped affair into one of the nicest looking pistols ever produced.

Luger_carbine
January 19, 2014, 12:02 PM
Yes it was an evolution of the 1893 Hugo Borchardt designed C-93, but Georg J. Luger did receive a patent for his design in 1898 which eventually became the Pistole Parabellum 1908

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beDkc--b3H8

Georg Luger worked with Borchardt at DWM in Berlin but Borchardt basically abandoned the design.

wow6599
January 19, 2014, 12:30 PM
Wonder if he's a former Sig employee, with the little shot he took at them.

oss117
January 19, 2014, 04:00 PM
Yes it was an evolution of the 1893 Hugo Borchardt designed C-93, but Georg J. Luger did receive a patent for his design in 1898 which eventually became the Pistole Parabellum 1908

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beDkc--b3H8

Georg Luger worked with Borchardt at DWM in Berlin but Borchardt basically abandoned the design.
Fair enough. BTW, I've always enjoyed those "Tales of the Gun" episodes.

KansasSasquatch
January 20, 2014, 12:45 AM
I think it's a pretty good looking gun as far as polymer guns are concerned. If the price was right and I had the cash I'd try one out. I think Id go with the polymer frame over the aluminum. But like others have said, I'd like to see a steel frame too.

Phaedrus/69
January 20, 2014, 01:14 AM
It looks like it has some potential. I'll be interested to see pricing and availability of accessories when it comes out.

SHOOT1SAM
January 20, 2014, 02:42 PM
PablojI shot one from KelTec in .22WRM. Few too many screws fro my taste, but not bad gun otherwise.

I'm with ya, Pabloj: I like at least one screw in my gun, like a C-96 Broomhandle.......

Sam

RX-79G
January 20, 2014, 03:01 PM
This gun does not have a fixed barrel. It is, if anything, like a P-38 or Beretta 92 - a non-tilting, non-turning recoiling barrel that locks to the slide with a third piece. The basic idea goes back to the 1896 Broomhandle.

This particular execution looks pretty decent, and the accuracy they're hoping for comes from the way that barrel is cradled between the slide and frame as well as the very small clearances on the locking piece.

Lugers and P210s demonstrate that recoil actions can be amazingly accurate. Really, any action can be very accurate, but it depends what you have to do to get that accuracy. Fixed barrel guns will do it too, but with sloppier clearances.


As long as this weapon works when dirty, despite the tight fit, it should sell well. But, as demonstrated by my recent thread on the subject of accuracy, it isn't something especially marketable.

Sam1911
January 20, 2014, 03:18 PM
Yes, no doubt it will be accurate enough. The real benefits -- if any -- will come from the low bore-axis and general ergonomics which could help shooters run the gun very fast indeed. IF they do. If it feels right in the hands, it might be worth a 6-month trial run. If it doesn't have the feel, I'll have to pass.

wadeestes
January 21, 2014, 12:29 AM
If it delivers the way he described it, I'd be very interested. I'm an accuracy freak.

Dr.Rob
January 22, 2014, 06:05 PM
Neat design, I'd like to shoot it. And I'd like to see it in 45.

Sam1911
January 22, 2014, 07:21 PM
Let's just assume that Arsenal knows better than to go with the current European street price, which is claimed to be about $4,000 USD. :scrutiny: :D :scrutiny: :( :scrutiny: :fire:

But...for some reason I want to see it in 9x23mm! Don't know why exactly, but that's what I'm seeing. Maybe long and low just says "FAST!" to me! :)

Nom de Forum
January 22, 2014, 10:49 PM
...........for some reason I want to see it in 9x23mm! Don't know why exactly, but that's what I'm seeing. Maybe long and low just says "FAST!" to me! :)

Well, if you are in for a penny why not in for a pound? Lets get them to scale it up for 9x25 and 10. Then we can put some real power into accurate 100 yard shooting. I hope I get to see one at a show or LGS before they disappear like most wonder guns usually do.

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