Beretta storm


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coyoteassasin
January 19, 2014, 07:04 PM
Please beware of the Betetta 40 storm, It has a decocker. My new storm discharged when I flipped the safety on. I had used it 2 weeks. Practiced with an empty gun often to gain familiarity. I was with a friend in my pickup at the farm when he asked to see my new carry gun. The truck was not running we were just talking. I opened the door so as to point the storm in a safe direction out the door. I removed the magazine. As I showed him how the decocker worked it discharged. Thank God I had pointed it out the door with the door open.The firing pin points almost straight up when decocking as you flip the safety on. The hammer hit the firing pin at a severe angle,estimating 45 or 50 degrees vertical. I returned it to Baretta. The tech said he could not make it discharge as I had explained. I kept the spent brass as to prove the angle of the firing pin strike. They said the gun was fine. refusing to except the tech answer I talked to a general manager. After asking him to review my case, I asked him to look at the spent brass. He was shocked to see the evidence. The gun was returned to the factory and I bought a Springfield Armory .45 short with a striker plate. This one wont discharge with the multiple safetys it has. I was disappointed In Baretta as they basically told me it was impossible to discharge on decocking.
As a kid my uncle taught me to always treat a weapon as if it may accidentally go off. Had I not opened the door and pointed it away it could have been a real bad outcome.

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Screwball
January 19, 2014, 07:40 PM
Something is funny, being decocking does not disengage the firing pin block.

When you pull the trigger, you'll see a circular piece of metal rise on top of the slide. If that doesn't rise, the gun cannot fire. Only way that block rises is when you pull the trigger, so if the factory couldn't replicate the firing pin block failure, which is easy to test, I doubt it was the cause of the discharge.

Tomac
January 19, 2014, 09:06 PM
Q: How/why did your PX4 already have the hammer back so it needed decocking in the first place?

coyoteassasin
January 19, 2014, 09:29 PM
I pulled the hammer back to display the decocking feature. Flipping up the safety on handle decocks it. yes the firing pin cylinder turns counter clockwise and nearly vertical to avoid firing during decocking. My finger was not near the trigger. verified by the other occupant of the truck.

coyoteassasin
January 19, 2014, 09:31 PM
That is the same conclusion Baretta came to. Again the striking angle of the firing pin on the primer told the story. My finger was not neat the trigger as I had itb in my right hand using my thumb to decock.

Sug008
January 19, 2014, 10:14 PM
Pulling the safety DOWN decocks the BEretta PX4 AND safes the gun. Hammer drops with lever down, not up. And I have no idea what you did, the safety of the PX4 is on the slide, not the "handle".

Putting it back UP takes the safety off.

You flipped the safety off and pulled the trigger somehow.

coyoteassasin
January 19, 2014, 10:19 PM
You seem to know it all, well I flipped the safety lever up to safe and the gun discharged,
The sub compact model is different than the compact model as to where the spent cartridge is discharged. No I did not have my finger on the trigger.

Vodoun da Vinci
January 19, 2014, 10:57 PM
I have a Px4 subcompact. The safety/decocker is just like the other Beretta pistols. When the lever is up, the gun is *not* safe - when the lever is down the hammer falls on a block, not the firing pin, and the gun is safe and the trigger is disconnected. See the red dot next to the lever? When you see the red dot it means danger - the gun is not safe.

http://www.recourses.net/images/shootingsport/beretta/03.jpg

Down is safe - Up is hot.

Good job on pointing the gun in a safe direction and not getting hurt. :)

VooDoo

Black Knight
January 19, 2014, 11:05 PM
I just checked the PX4 and the safety works just like my 92. The safety must be pushed down to be on safe and decock the pistol. With the safety pushed up it is ready to fire. It is Beretta's standard design. Tell me I am wrong if you like but I have carried a Beretta 92 series pistol as an armed security officer and as a police officer for more than 15 years. I am also a departmental armorer having attended a Beretta factory Armorer course in 2004. There is absolutely no way the safety can be on and the gun goes off. The striker that hits the firing pin sets in a barrel that rotates as the safety is pushed up or down. When up the striker can hit the firing pin wnd when down the striker can not hit the firing pin. The safety lever shows the direction the striker is pointed.

TennJed
January 20, 2014, 12:08 AM
As others have pointed out when you flipped the safety UP you were not decocking it. Beretta tech was correct when he told you the gun would not discharge when decocking. I think apologies to the tech rep is in order

Strahley
January 20, 2014, 12:24 AM
This story does not add up

1. The piece you're seeing that rotates with the safety is NOT the firing pin. That is the plunger. The hammer strikes the plunger, the plunger pushes the firing pin, the firing pin hits the primer...if and only if the firing pin block is up, from the trigger being pulled back all the way

2. With the safety engaged, the plunger is unable to be struck by the hammer. Even if it did somehow hit the plunger - at an "extreme angle" -the plunger would dive downward...not striking the firing pin

3. There is a firing pin block that can only be moved by pulling the trigger all the way back. Otherwise, the plunger and firing pin cannot make contact. The way they designed it, if the spring or block broke/malfunctioned, it would err on the side of safety. It would sit in a position that the plunger would only be able to hit the block (or spring, if it was bad enough somehow)

4. You claim that the firing pin struck the primer at a 45-50 degree angle, leaving some sort of evidence behind that "shocked the tech." This is impossible. The firing pin sits in a tight chamber and can only move back and forth, not up and down. Two things make your claim bogus:

a. Even if the plunger managed to strike the firing pin at a 45-50 degree angle (which would require either the trigger being pulled, or the firing pin block to somehow get stuck in the upward position, defying both gravity and the spring that sits above it), the firing pin would still only move forward, striking the primer in the exact same way it would strike it if the plunger struck it under normal operating conditions. There would be no difference in how the spent casings looked between both scenarios

b. For the firing pin to strike the primer at a 45-50 degree angle, the striker would have to physically be outside of both its chamber AND the slide. The tech would have noticed a 2-3 inch long hole in the top of the slide for this to have happened

5. You said you removed the magazine. Why didn't you remove the chambered round as well?

I fully believe that the gun fired a round, but not by mechanical error. I believe that you pulled the trigger, whether you meant to or not. Maybe you did it while riding the safety (like some do with a 1911) to decock it. Maybe your muscle memory had your finger on the trigger as you were manipulating the controls

Please be more careful with the Springfield, as it has the same practical passive safeties as the PX4 Storm does (that grip safety would have already been disengaged as you were holding it with a normal grip)

There is no such thing as an accidental discharge. They are negligent discharges

twofifty
January 20, 2014, 12:58 AM
Coyoteassasin, let's see a picture of your spent case.

JTQ
January 20, 2014, 09:55 AM
coyoteassasin wrote,
I pulled the hammer back to display the decocking feature. Flipping up the safety on handle decocks it.
For clarity, you're saying you pulled the hammer back while the safe/decocker was in the down safe/decock position, and then pushed the safety/decocker up to the fire position and released the hammer.

I wonder if the Beretta would catch the hammer if it were pulled back and the safety was put in the fire position? Would the hammer need to be fully retracted to catch, if it would catch at all, or if it were in an intermediate position, not fully retracted, and let loose, would the hammer have enough force to fire a round?

Maybe Vodoun da Vinci could do some experiments for us with his Beretta, at a safe place, such as a gun range.

Vodoun da Vinci
January 20, 2014, 10:10 AM
The hammer will not lock back with the gun in the safe position. As already stated by others, there is no way, absolutely no way, for the gun to fire when the gun is decocked and hammer falls.

No way.

The OP pushed the decocker/safety up and pulled the trigger on a live round. There is no other way to discharge this pistol.

VooDoo

JTQ
January 20, 2014, 10:12 AM
No, I'm saying try what the OP apparently did, pull the hammer back - and hold it back. Then move the safety to fire, and release the hammer.

Vodoun da Vinci
January 20, 2014, 10:31 AM
I have done this before back 30 years ago when I did not trust the decocker - the hammer will not fall unless the trigger is pulled. If you pulled the hammer back and held it with your thumb, how would you release the decocker/safety by pushing it up with your thumb?

You'd need two hands and a deliberate act...you'd have to use one hand to hold the hammer back and another hand (in a very awkward way) to click the decocker up while holding the trigger down. It could be done but regardless...you'd have to pull the trigger and deliberately do very odd things to get the gun to fire...

The OP pulled the trigger on a live round. Luckily the gun was pointed in a safe direction and I extend my thanks to him for observing that precaution.

VooDoo

JTQ
January 20, 2014, 10:47 AM
I also find it odd that this would happen without the trigger being pulled.

However, I'm willing to take the OP's word he did not pull the trigger. Though based on what he's said in his posts, it sure sounds as if he doesn't know how the safety/decocker works. I also agree with the previous poster who asked why the OP didn't eject the chambered round after dropping the magazine, and prior to performing the demo.

I just pulled out my S&W 4506 with a similar safety/decocker. With the safety/decocker on-safe, if I pull the hammer back all the way, and then move the safety/decocker off safe (it does almost take 3 hands to do this), the hammer will catch and not go forward. However, if the hammer is not fully retracted the hammer will fall. I don't know if the firing pin safety would protect from a discharge since the trigger wasn't pulled. If the firing pin safety was somehow defeated in this action, I also don't know if the hammer would have enough force to fire a loaded round.

Sug008
January 20, 2014, 10:58 AM
JTQ

In the three Berettas I own, including the PX4 SC, even if there is some way to FORCE the hammer to come forward and strike the firing pin, the firing pin CANNOT strike the primer UNLESS the trigger is held back due to the presence of a firing pin block. The last bit of movement of the trigger lifts the firing pin block out of place. Even in SA mode, the last bit of trigger pull lifts the firing pin block. See Strahley's explanation above. (I would never claim to "know everything." But I know what he wrote. I just didn't feel like writing it at the time.)

This pistol, unmodified and functioning properly, will not fire if it is safe. When hot will only fire when the trigger is pulled.

CoyoteAssasin clearly NEVER read his owners manual, assuming he had one, and clearly never got proper instruction on the operation of the PX4 SC. He's very lucky he at least had the good sense to point the gun in a clear directions.

Vodoun da Vinci
January 21, 2014, 08:30 PM
Got mine back this evening from having the new adjustable sights put on. Put the gun in safe (decocker down) and held the hammer back....flicked up the decocker and let go of the hammer. It drops a mm and stops in the cocked position.

Played with it a bit and, long story short, the hammer cannot/will not fall unless the trigger is pulled. I expected no less but wanted to do it any way just to say we tried that.

With all the internal safeties including the above described firing pin block and the trigger deactivation and the decocker there is only one way to fire a hot Beretta Px4 Storm Subcompact. You have to pull the trigger on a live round after flicking the decocker up to hot. And that would be a DA pull which is long and hard. Or thumb the hammer back and pull the trigger in SA.

The gun is totally safe - I have no idea what happened with the OP.

VooDoo

chris in va
January 22, 2014, 04:52 PM
Needs to head back to Beretta. They will fix it for you.

wleggart
January 22, 2014, 05:21 PM
I am fairly new to pistols. I started with a Ruger .357 Blackhawk, then a S&W .38 Bodyguard. then a Wilson Combat .45, and finally a H&R .22 sportsman. My question is: what nucklehead decided to make the safety work backwards from a 1911? My thumb knows up safe down shoot.

JTQ
January 22, 2014, 05:51 PM
My question is: what nucklehead decided to make the safety work backwards from a 1911? My thumb knows up safe down shoot.
Probably Carl Walther

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_P38

Strahley
January 22, 2014, 05:55 PM
1911 isn't the only handgun in the world

TennJed
January 22, 2014, 06:09 PM
I am fairly new to pistols. I started with a Ruger .357 Blackhawk, then a S&W .38 Bodyguard. then a Wilson Combat .45, and finally a H&R .22 sportsman. My question is: what nucklehead decided to make the safety work backwards from a 1911? My thumb knows up safe down shoot.

I am glad you started your post with you are new to pistols. You get a pass young grasshopper

wleggart
January 23, 2014, 11:34 AM
Thank you sir! I do offically have my Medicare card in my pocket. I take the "Grasshopper" as a term of endearment! Unlike Cane is more "limp the earth";So, it's not a safety it's a decocker to lower the hammer after loading the first round. The reason I am following this thread is that a 1911 may be a very fine pistol, but it's a little hard to conceal and have it ready immediately! There seem to be a few people that think everyone is a easy mark for robbery. The new Remington pistol seems to be a candidate 9MM single stack etc. It is much like the Walther you referred to.

Vodoun da Vinci
January 23, 2014, 05:27 PM
I had a Beretta 92S 30+ years back and the "safety"/decocker was the same. It's just the way they do it and to carry/use one proficiently you'll have to practice with it and learn it bone deep.

I have Colts and Berettas and I coexist nicely but then I dry fire them and train with them quite a bit to be able to "cross train" with either.


It's not better or worse - it's just not the same as a 1911.

VooDoo

Kuyong_Chuin
January 29, 2014, 03:46 AM
I am fairly new to pistols. I started with a Ruger .357 Blackhawk, then a S&W .38 Bodyguard. then a Wilson Combat .45, and finally a H&R .22 sportsman. My question is: what nucklehead decided to make the safety work backwards from a 1911? My thumb knows up safe down shoot.
The Ruger P94 would throw you off as well then because on it up is fire and down is safe.

By the way knucklehead starts with a K. ;)

rhinoh
January 29, 2014, 06:24 AM
Coyoteassasin, let's see a picture of your spent case.
Exactly what I was thinking.....

87jeep
January 29, 2014, 10:31 PM
Have a PX4 compact, very good gun. Safe as they come!

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