Mosin Nagant and 7.62x54R ammo


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BoltLover
January 19, 2014, 08:50 PM
I would like to discuss problems with your Nagant or 7.62x54R ammo.
I also may be able to help with a lot of problems with these.

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Kuyong_Chuin
January 19, 2014, 08:57 PM
Right now the only problem I have is finding a check rest/riser that is high enough to see down the scout scope correctly. I can't find one high enough.

plmitch
January 19, 2014, 09:07 PM
No problems with reloading, nice easy round. Would like to find anyone else who uses accurate 2700 with success.

BoltLover
January 19, 2014, 09:09 PM
Ill begin by saying issues with the Mosin nagant family of rifles are usually an easy fix. Some problems however, like headspace problems may turn you nagant into a wall hanger (unless you or someone you know is a gunsmith lowering the cost of repairs). I for one still have a problem with my type 53. After checking headspace I decided to measure spent casings and compare to unfired. My type 53 expands my casing by a considerable amount. Overall Length of unfired casing 2.099/ neck 0.330/ mid body 0.472. Ok now the spent casing- O.A.L. 2.101/ neck 0.336/ mid body 0.474. Is this enough expansion to cause the problems with ejecting my casings or not? Does anyone know? I also have scrape marks on spent casings just past the rim about 1/4". My ammo will drop right into the the barrel flush when i just drop it in.

rcmodel
January 19, 2014, 09:30 PM
Any problems with excess headspace can be cured when reloading by backing off the sizer die and head spacing off the case shoulder instead of the rim.

It's an old and well known practice when adjusting sizing dies for rimmed bottle-neck calibers.

You can make your brass last a long long time by doing it that way!

rc

BoltLover
January 19, 2014, 09:36 PM
I have purchased field and no-go gauges and the bolt doesn't close all the way on either. Anyways do you mind sharing your loading data for the 7.62x54R. I slugged my barrel at .310 would you recommend a.308 bullet or .311? I'm fairly new to reloading>

rcmodel
January 19, 2014, 09:42 PM
I have purchased field and no-go gauges and the bolt doesn't close all the way on either

That's good!
It shouldn't.

.310" bore = use .311" bullets.

rc

BoltLover
January 19, 2014, 09:57 PM
Thats what i was thinking. Thanks for the help.

LAGS
January 19, 2014, 10:20 PM
The 7.62x54 is a rimmed case that headspaces on the rim.
If you are getting expanded casings, it is not caused by too much Headspace, but rather a Sloppy Chamber.
If you are reloading and only Neck size your cases, it will help eliminate your over working the brass, and the casings will fit good back into that rifle only.
Use the .311 bullets , but I get very good accuracy out to 200 yards with the .310 - 123 grain bullets for the 7.62x39 AK rounds.
Plus I am whipping them out to near 3000 FPS.
I load them for my rifle with 52.0 gr of IMR-4320
But work your loads up carefully because of your loose chamber.

Tolkachi Robotnik
January 19, 2014, 11:52 PM
You do not have to work your brass back so far, unless you cannot get your loads back in your chamber, and yes, you will have to make loads only for that rifle. This usually makes them shoot better for accuracy, and the brass will last much longer.

I also agree with LAGS about the bullets for 7.62X39 being a good fodder for 7.62X54R. They are accurate for me too, and cheaper than heavier bullets because of economy of scale. They must sell a lot of bullets for 7.62X39 in comparison to 7.62X54R.

My favorite load for 123-125 grain bullets of .310 diameter is 42 grains of IMR 3031, it is not real hot but groups well in an M44. You should follow data and start off a little lower but that is not a max load in my Lyman book. I have tried a little more powder but they did not group as well. They are going 2700 fps or so. Brass lasts well with this load.

TenDriver
January 20, 2014, 12:37 AM
I didn't know I was supposed to have problems with my Mosin.

With surplus ammo so cheap, I just can't see reloading for mine. It's a fun range gun that is minute of clay at 200 yds. Good enough for me!

LAGS
January 20, 2014, 06:21 AM
@ TenDriver
You do know someday the supply of CHEAP ammo is going to dry up for the Mosin Nagants, and not because they run out.
But because of politics, they will rstrict importation. You cant get the Chinese surplus any more ?
But if you have loads already worked up for your rifle, you can avoid the RUSH on all things needed for reloading for them.
And the guys that are not prepaired, well, they will be selling off their Range Guns Cheap for a while, or just stuffing them into the back of the closet.

TenDriver
January 20, 2014, 09:17 AM
Surplus ammo may very well dry up at some point.

You're talking about working up a load for a rifle that aren't known to be tack drivers and are fed a diet of who knows what. Working up a load shouldn't take too long.

carbine85
January 20, 2014, 12:45 PM
I reload a lot for the Mosin. I enjoy trying to get the most accuracy I can out them and find most of the surplus ammo to be very dirty and not very accurate.
Widners has some Match ammo that is pretty good and it's still reasonably priced.
When I reload I use a Sierra Match King and IMR 4895 powder.
One thing I have found is the Mosin's like a longer bullet. The Russian match bullets are longer than the domestic bullets by about 3/16".

tyeo098
January 20, 2014, 01:02 PM
Surplus ammo may very well dry up at some point.

Eh. Russian army still uses the 7.62x54R, and its hardly "armor piercing handgun ammunition" that got all the 7.62x25 and 7.62x39 surplus to dry up.

Thats why no one dares build a 5.45x39 pistol. With a stroke of the AG's pen its all gone.

BoltLover
January 20, 2014, 02:45 PM
I'm not too worried about the surplus ammo drying up I just like to load my own. I'm having trouble finding load info using my imr4350 powder. I have a few pounds of it so I would like to use it.

LAGS
January 20, 2014, 09:23 PM
@ Bolt Lover
I use the IMR4350 in some of my M N loads like 50.0 gr. with a 180 Sierra .311 bullet.
The 4350 will work with the 150's but it works better with the heavier bullets above 180 gr, and most M N's shoot better with longer heavier bullets.

TrickyDick
January 20, 2014, 10:27 PM
I load them for my rifle with 52.0 gr of IMR-4320

I've been getting 1.5" groups at 100 yards using iron sights with 150 gr, .311" bullets, and 47.3 gr of IMR-4320. It's good stuff

plmitch
January 20, 2014, 10:33 PM
BoltLover, consider casting your own bullets. I use a Noe 311299 with unique or 2400, easy recoil plinker.

NCsmitty
January 20, 2014, 11:34 PM
Here's a list of loads for the 7.62x54R from Reloadersnest using IMR4350. As always, proceed with caution and start with a couple grains lower and work up.

http://www.reloadersnest.com/query_pw.asp?CaliberID=216&Powder=IMR%204350

Your Type 53 appears to have an oversize chamber, and if it was mine, it would only see surplus ammo. Why waste your good boxer primed brass on it? Is it the only rifle in 7.62x54R that you have?


NCsmitty

arspeukinen
January 20, 2014, 11:41 PM
Right now the only problem I have is finding a check rest/riser that is high enough to see down the scout scope correctly. I can't find one high enough.


I hacksawed the stock and built a rising adjustable cheek piece. Took 3 hours including painting. It was a split, sporterized stock to begin with so no big loss. Works fine.

LAGS
January 21, 2014, 06:24 AM
@ NCsmitty
The first M N I had, had .012" Too much headspace and an oversized chamber plus a BLACK Bore.
The first box of Norma Brass I bought for it back in 1976 was reloaded by me over 20 times with moderate loads, before I sold the rifle to a friend.
Once the cases are fire formed, they should last a long time.
I was also using a Lee Classic Reloader that only Neck Sizes the brass anyway.
The friend sold the rifle to another friend and it is still being shot, and I still have the Original Norma cases from that rifle, and use them still for cast bullet loads in one of my other rifles.

BoltLover
January 21, 2014, 07:31 AM
Great info guys. You are all a big help to me. Don't go away I'm sure I'll need more help as I move along lol.

BoltLover
January 21, 2014, 10:46 AM
Thanks Lags That info helps a lot I'm preparing to load 5 trials right now!

BoltLover
January 21, 2014, 02:06 PM
@ Bolt Lover
I use the IMR4350 in some of my M N loads like 50.0 gr. with a 180 Sierra .311 bullet.
The 4350 will work with the 150's but it works better with the heavier bullets above 180 gr, and most M N's shoot better with longer heavier bullets.




Loaded up 5 of these loads LAG. This load is great for the 7.62 thanks soooo much for sharing your data. I shot 1.7" group at 150 yards with this load. i know it was only 5 shots but its extremely promising....Thanks again.

LAGS
January 21, 2014, 07:48 PM
@ BoltLover
I am glad the loads worked in your rifle.
But I caution you.
Never take anyones load and assume it will be safe in your gun.
Always back down your loads that you want to try, and work them up for " YOUR " rifle.
The OLD Manual I have actually shows that these loads can be increased slightly, but I see no reason to load them up that hot.
And most of my reloads were more accurate when shot BELOW the Maximum.
You also have an OLD gun that is not in the best of shape, so be carefull.

BoltLover
January 21, 2014, 08:33 PM
Thanks

LAGS
January 21, 2014, 09:01 PM
@ BoltLover
A good starting load for the 150 Gr is 49.0 of IMR 4350
And 46.0 of IMR 4350 for the 220 gr bullet if you can find them in .311

For bullets lighter than 180 try either IMR 4895 or IMR 4320
Imr 4064 also works well in the 7.62x54

But you having a shorter rifle, your rifle might shoot Better with the 150 Gr bullets.
Try different loads and see how they work for you.
P.S.
Lighter bullets Kick Less.
But out of a M-53 or M-44 Good luck with that

BoltLover
January 29, 2014, 04:17 AM
I have a question... Does anyone have a source for load info on the 7.62x54r using either imr4350 or h4895 with a. 311 harnady sp 110gr ? This is the only weight I can find locally in. 311.

BoltLover
January 29, 2014, 04:19 AM
Sorry I mean a. 308 bullet

plmitch
January 29, 2014, 09:19 AM
Sorry I mean a. 308 bullet
Why would you use a .308 dia bullet? You should be using a .311-312 if your barrel slugged out at .310.

BoltLover
January 29, 2014, 09:20 AM
I can not find. 311 or 310

plmitch
January 29, 2014, 09:43 AM
I can not find. 311 or 310

I guess you could try paper patching them. I do for a few of my rifles, works well with cast bullets.

KansasSasquatch
January 29, 2014, 12:57 PM
Hodgdon's data for 7.62x54R all uses .308 bullets

Bullet Weight (Gr.) Manufacturer Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

110 GR. HDY SP Hodgdon Varget .308" 2.715" 51.0 3016 34,700 CUP 55.0C 3200 39,900 CUP
110 GR. HDY SP Hodgdon BL-C(2) .308" 2.715" 56.0 3141 34,200 CUP 60.0 3376 42,300 CUP
110 GR. HDY SP Hodgdon H335 .308" 2.715" 51.0 3126 36,300 CUP 54.5 3332 45,200 CUP
110 GR. HDY SP Hodgdon H4895 .308" 2.715" 51.0 3150 35,500 CUP 55.0C 3345 43,400 CUP
110 GR. HDY SP Hodgdon Benchmark .308" 2.715" 47.0 3060 39,700 CUP 50.5 3213 44,900 CUP

My rifle shoots surplus ammo into 3" groups at 100 yards if I do my part. Using Hornady 150gr .308 SP bullets and a few different powders, I couldn't get anything that I would even call a grouping. It was more like a 8" pattern. I don't think you'll have much success using those 110gr .308 bullets. Those bullets are intended for .30 Carbine. They're too small for your bore and they aren't designed for x54R velocities. But I'm just some guy on the internet, you might have better luck. If your range allows steel core ammo I think you're better off just buying some surplus ammo. If not, do a very thorough search for some proper .311-312 bullets. Doing either of those would probably be a wiser use of your time and/or money.

tyeo098
January 29, 2014, 01:04 PM
I can not find. 311 or 310
Time to start casting :)

plmitch
January 29, 2014, 01:06 PM
.308 would be a poor choice for a lager bore regardless of published data. If you can't find any proper sized bullets try casting some. Having a .310 bore try a Noe 311299 bullet or a Lyman 311299.

plmitch
January 29, 2014, 01:11 PM
If you want to use a small bullet like the 110gr try a Lee" soup can"" bullet over unique or 2400 . Good plinker with no recoil.

hartcreek
January 29, 2014, 03:09 PM
boltlover If you can not find the proper bullet then do not load with the wrong one. It is a simple matter to buy a mold, bullet sizer and some gaschecks and make the right bullet.

I decide to go with Lee for my mold in 155grains so I can use it for 7.62 x 39, 7.62 x 53R and with another sizer .308 and 30-06

elwoodm
January 29, 2014, 04:54 PM
.310 .311 and .312 bullets are going to be harder and harder to find. the dod is not to blame for this one because they don't use those sizes. what were in for now is the fact that the EPA has attacked the last lead smelting plant in the u.s. the doe run co. announced last year it would shut down. nice to see our tax money used so well. now our lead will come from china australia and peru. who needs lead anyway?

plmitch
January 29, 2014, 06:11 PM
.310 .311 and .312 bullets are going to be harder and harder to find. the dod is not to blame for this one because they don't use those sizes. what were in for now is the fact that the EPA has attacked the last lead smelting plant in the u.s. the doe run co. announced last year it would shut down. nice to see our tax money used so well. now our lead will come from china australia and peru. who needs lead anyway?


I was wondering when the old Doe Run bs would pop up again...........310-312's can be had, just not cheap.

TenDriver
January 29, 2014, 11:30 PM
OP, where are you located? One of the places I frequent had a box of Sierra .311 bullets. I don't know what weight or type but I think they were around $25. I thought about getting them even though I don't have any 54R brass yet.

BoltLover
January 30, 2014, 11:23 AM
Here's my reloading details this is why I chose. 308 bullets. 194247194248 I thought this was the best option with no other bullet available to me. And it is published data!

plmitch
January 30, 2014, 11:31 AM
Best of luck with that.

plmitch
January 30, 2014, 11:44 AM
OP, where are you located? One of the places I frequent had a box of Sierra .311 bullets. I don't know what weight or type but I think they were around $25. I thought about getting them even though I don't have any 54R brass yet.

Thats a good price. If you need brass I might have some for sale of trade for a box of those .311's. Let me know. Thanks

KansasSasquatch
January 30, 2014, 12:18 PM
It is published data, no one is questioning that. But you've already stated that you've slugged your bore, and .308 bullets simply aren't a good fit for your bore. I, like you, ignored others when I first started reloading for my Mosin. I tried the .308 bullets and you just aren't going to get your money's worth out of them. Don't waste your .308's when .310-.313 bullets are readily available http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/922? and you'll only pay $8 shipping from Graf's. Order a few boxes to save on shipping. If you just need something for plinking ammo (that's more accurate than surplus stuff) then get the PRVI bullets which have volume discounts. If you want bullets for hunting, those Hornady SST bullets won't let you down.

Kuyong_Chuin
January 31, 2014, 12:48 AM
I hacksawed the stock and built a rising adjustable cheek piece. Took 3 hours including painting. It was a split, sporterized stock to begin with so no big loss. Works fine.
Thanks, If I had a backup stock I might try something like that, but I spent too much time refinishing the stock I have on there. I'll come up with something if I have to make one out of memory foam and leather.

Sasquatch, you beat me to the Graf & Son link for the .311 and .312 bullets.
Speaking of which does anyone know of any other company besides Graf that carries these http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/12615 ? They have been out of stock forever and they are the only place I have found that even carries them.

LAGS
February 1, 2014, 02:04 AM
@ K C
have you looked on line at Midway USA for the .311 bullets, or if they have them currently in stock.
That is where I get them when I need them.
But I am mostly using the .310 123 grains and the Sierra .311 180 Gr when I shoot jacketed bullets instead of the Bullets I cast myself out of lead alloy.
But they usually do have the 150 gr in the .311 and .312 from Hornady, Remington and Speer.

Kuyong_Chuin
February 1, 2014, 06:03 AM
@ K C
have you looked on line at Midway USA for the .311 bullets, or if they have them currently in stock.
That is where I get them when I need them.
But I am mostly using the .310 123 grains and the Sierra .311 180 Gr when I shoot jacketed bullets instead of the Bullets I cast myself out of lead alloy.
But they usually do have the 150 gr in the .311 and .312 from Hornady, Remington and Speer.
I can find bullets, I just can't find those bullets. PPU is the only company that I have found that makes that style bullets. If I could find another company that makes a 150 grain Soft point boattail bullet in .311-.312 range or even up to a .314 lead round of the same boattail type I would be a happy camper.

elwoodm
February 1, 2014, 09:40 PM
like plmitch said were ready to trade brass a more expensive metal for lead because we can't get bullets made in this country that are .310 to .312 we will have to think before we vote from now on unless you got more money than brains.

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