What's with Springfield using Brazilian frames?


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SP2000
January 19, 2014, 08:55 PM
I'm no 1911 expert at all and I'm not putting down Springer 1911's. I just think that an American classic should be American made. I've never understood why Springfield uses Brazilian frames. When I think of Springfield Armory, I think of the USA. Its just one of those things that irks me.
Any idea why they do this? Same with the XD series being Croatian. Again, not knocking them, just wonder why a company as seemingly American as S/A doesn't make their big hits here?

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HexHead
January 19, 2014, 08:58 PM
They're not the same Springfield as the former government arsenal you're thinking of.

Texshooter
January 19, 2014, 09:01 PM
They are a sales company, sadly not a manufacturing company

SP2000
January 19, 2014, 09:08 PM
They're not the same Springfield as the former government arsenal you're thinking of.

I actually didn't know that. Thanks!

jfrey
January 19, 2014, 09:18 PM
Several companies use imported parts to build their guns. Ain't no big deal. They still produce a quality product and that is what counts.

SP2000
January 19, 2014, 09:26 PM
I'm not questioning the quality. I'm just saying that I'm not buying a 1911 with "Brazil" stamped on the side of it. Taurus is different. Its a Brazilian company. I just don't get why a company that many see as an American icon, would use Brazilian frames in "the American gun".

2wheels
January 19, 2014, 09:27 PM
Because the Brazilians do a good job at forging steel, I'm guessing it's easier and cheaper to buy from them than develop their own forging capability. And as it has already been pointed out, Springfield Armory has no connection to the Arsenal you're thinking of, they just use the name. It's a marketing thing, some don't like it... It really doesn't bother me.

They are a sales company, sadly not a manufacturing company

Not totally true, while they do import entire guns (XDs and some of their 1911s) or parts of guns (1911s), they do have at least some manufacturing capability, although how much I am unsure.

Sam1911
January 19, 2014, 09:36 PM
Same reason Japanese car makers really build their cars here***. It helps them get a quality product on the dealers' shelves for a lower price point.


(*** And I'm pretty cheesed-off about that, too! When I buy a Japanese car, I want a gol-danged JAPANESE car! Not some flippin' American-built knock-off. Pathetic!)

Fiv3r
January 19, 2014, 09:44 PM
I'm not an expert on 1911s, but their high end models have enough domestic parts to have a New Mexico number stamped down the side. My Loaded model is tight, reliable, and the most accurate gun I have ever owned.

Then again, I don't really mind where a gun comes from as long as it shoots well.

hAkron
January 19, 2014, 09:49 PM
They are sort of a finishing company. For the higher end models, the fitting and assembly is done my craftsmen in the US. I think this was also the case when they used to import Tanfolgio pistols. Fitting and assembling 1911's who's parts were made elsewhere isn't so uncommon in the 1911 world.

jmr40
January 19, 2014, 10:09 PM
The current Springfield Armory company doesn't build anything. They pay other companies in other countries to make guns with their logo stamped on them. Some of their guns are well made.

rcmodel
January 19, 2014, 10:16 PM
U.S. Government Springfield Armory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield_Armory

Closed in 1968.

rc

Doug S
January 19, 2014, 10:46 PM
Yes- as has been stated in this thread (and irregardless of any personal politics) the historical Springfield Armory and the modern company who purchased the name/trademark etc have no relation to each other. I think a lot of people are like you and do not realize this. I think Springfield benefits greatly from the fact.

jjones45
January 19, 2014, 10:54 PM
Wow, you learn something new everyday. I wondered what was going on when they turned the hs2000 into a xd. I found that weird and now it all makes sense. So the current Springfield armory isn't the oldest American gun company? I can care less where a gun is made as long as it's a quality product with the manufacturer willing to stand behind it and honor warranty work if need be. Look at how many good 1911s are made all over the world these days. It may have stared out American, but now it's world wide. We Americans are still the biggest fan of 45acp handguns though.

ColtPythonElite
January 19, 2014, 10:59 PM
As long as it's a quality product at a price I think is fair, I don't care where it's made.

Warrior1
January 20, 2014, 01:21 AM
Several companies use imported parts to build their guns. Ain't no big deal. They still produce a quality product and that is what counts.
To all you Taurus haters. They are the ones who makes the frames for the Springfield Armory 1911.

RX-79G
January 20, 2014, 02:13 AM
Imbel has always made Springfield 1911 and FAL parts. Did that change?

tarosean
January 20, 2014, 04:05 AM
To all you Taurus haters. They are the ones who makes the frames for the Springfield Armory 1911.

No they are not. IMBEL makes SA frames and other weapons. IMBEL is located in Setor Militar Urbano, which is approximately 2000 kilometers from Taurus home of Porto Alegre..

PabloJ
January 20, 2014, 04:45 AM
I'm no 1911 expert at all and I'm not putting down Springer 1911's. I just think that an American classic should be American made. I've never understood why Springfield uses Brazilian frames. When I think of Springfield Armory, I think of the USA. Its just one of those things that irks me.
Any idea why they do this? Same with the XD series being Croatian. Again, not knocking them, just wonder why a company as seemingly American as S/A doesn't make their big hits here?
Why? Most of clothing average American wears is from China along with just about anything made of plastic (except gun frames). Browning Arms have been doing this for many, many years. Unlike in some parts of Europe Americans did very badly when it comes to keeping high paying jobs here.

PabloJ
January 20, 2014, 04:48 AM
PS. Want American need to buy $1700 'Sand Spider' 1911 rail gun from Colt.

mattk
January 20, 2014, 09:47 AM
Wow lots of.incorrect information here. Springfield does get their slides and frames umbels but they do a large amount of work on their 2 production lines at their factory in Illinois.

bannockburn
January 20, 2014, 10:35 AM
http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z334/TailoAltera/gunpix1053.jpg (http://s1184.photobucket.com/user/TailoAltera/media/gunpix1053.jpg.html)

My Springfield Armory M1911-A1, acquired new in 1988, was manufactured in Brazil and assembled here in the U.S. I believe the retail price was somewhere around $279 and at the time it seemed like a real bargain, compared to what Colt Governments were going for (that is if you could find them). Fit and finish were first rate, the gun itself was nice and tight with close tolerances, and it had a decent trigger right out of the box.

When I got it my first intention was to eventually have it customized by a leading M1911 gunsmith with all the bells and whistles. But the more I used it the more I came to appreciate it for its reliability and performance in its original stock configuration. So I left it as is and still continue to enjoy it just the way it came from Springfield Armory.

Tony k
January 20, 2014, 10:46 AM
It matters to me where things are made. Not caring where things come from is part of the reason there are fewer living wage jobs in our country. Also, losing our internal manufacturing base could put us in a strategic disadvantage in a war. Nations that cannot provide real goods for themselves lose a big part of their soverignty and self-determination.

I know we still have plety of domestic firearms manufactures, but don't take them for granted. Look what happened to the textile mills in the Southeast and all the manufacturing jobs in the Midwest. Losing those industries has made us more vulnerable to international turmoil. The same could be the case in firearms manufacture if all we care about is saving $100.

Now that I'm done with that rant, I go be a hypcite and shoot my Brazillian made Taurus! Yes, I'm a hypocrite, but my obsession with trying to by American Made products is newer than my Taurus.

JO JO
January 20, 2014, 11:54 AM
+1 to the above post

jjones45
January 20, 2014, 12:44 PM
Every time you shoot your xd's know you did your part in help feeding a family in Croatia. Unfortunately if we stick to just American made we lose out on some really good products. Are there any more tv's made in the USA? The key is to buy as much American made stuff as you can and limit the foreign merchandise if possible. Unfortunately the Germans and Czechs make some of the best guns IMHO so they will always get my money.

MagnumDweeb
January 20, 2014, 12:55 PM
When I was buying my XDS, post malfunction and refurb (got one of the newly made ones) I asked where it came from and got told it was an American factory and not remembering the Croatia issue I went ahead and bought it. The gun works ok but has some minor issues that irk me like racking the slide while having the grip safety engaged causes the gun to jam and if I don't rack the slide just right it won't go into battery. Never had this problem with any of my Ruger autos, P90 and SR9.

Now with that said, while I might buy a Springfield XD, I'll never buy a 1911 unless it's used. Now a Ruger 1911 I'll buy brand new at a decent price. Why, because all of Ruger's guns are made here in America by Americans, keeping jobs here in America. Sure it's a little bit of hypocrisy to buy a used Springfield product but it's not as bad in my opinion as buying a brand new product. I'll deign to get the XD products because they are excellent products and my love for Glocks is not really much of a love as I find shooting XDs more pleasant, if less reliable, than Glocks. Oh hell no more XD products, just Glocks, fugly Glocks that work NIB when I buy them and don't have any finicky issues.

I try my best to buy made in America or I go to a thrift store (Goodwill) to get it. There just isn't much made in America anymore other than guns and ammo. As much as I hate to say it, I'm kind of glad we don't allow the import of Norinco handguns and M1A1s (oh that hurts so much) anymore. As more and more time goes by I'm starting to like Ruger more and more. Now if they would just make their 1911 in 10mm, create a .45 ACP pocket pistol with a sweet SA trigger, and turn out a 9mm revolver in their GP100s, I'd never need any other maker of handguns.

Anyone know where Smith and Wesson gets their 1911 frames from?

Sam1911
January 20, 2014, 12:59 PM
Anyone know where Smith and Wesson gets their 1911 frames from?

North Korea, why do you ask?

Lantern
January 20, 2014, 01:49 PM
North Korea, why do you ask?
LOL!!!!!

SP2000
January 20, 2014, 02:57 PM
OK. Great info all. My point was that I think when many people think S/A, they think of America. (I now know about the name issue) That's my thing. I'm not knocking their products, heck I'm a Glock guy. But I know my Glock is Austrian. Same with Taurus. I know it's Brazilian. I'll bet that the vast majority of shooters think S/A products are American made. The use of the S/A name is very deceptive IMO.

RX-79G
January 20, 2014, 03:11 PM
Springfield Armory has always been known for their nice imported arms. P9 pistols from Tanfoglio in Italy, Imbel 1911s and FALs, Greek HK91s, and Croatian HS2000s (I mean XDs).

Their primary kinda US product are M1A rifles, which they built up with surplus M-14 parts and a Imbel made receiver casting finished by SA. As those surplus parts have gotten rarer, SA has created or contracted for replacements - often with a degradation in rifle quality. But the M1A is their "US" product.

Greg528iT
January 20, 2014, 03:33 PM
Springfield make a lot of frames, but I'm not sure it's a Brazilian. How many zero's in a Brazilian anyway???? :)

Sure some people do not know they import their guns and or frames from one of the worlds leading steel forging companies. Most get over it when they realize the overall quality.

RX-79G
January 20, 2014, 03:42 PM
Springfield make a lot of frames,Which ones?

jjones45
January 20, 2014, 03:58 PM
I always thought the xd/xdm was the only import SA was offering, boy was I wrong. Not that it matters because I don't really like xd's that much anyways but it's still good to know. That's why I like these forums. You learn something new all the time. So the only %100 American made 1911's are from kimber, colt, sti (not spartan), Wilson combat, ed brown, ruger, les Baer. Wow this is sad, we need more American made 1911's that are in the lower to mid price range. Now I feel bad for wanting a rock island 2011.it must be impossible make a 1911 in America for around $550.

SP2000
January 20, 2014, 04:02 PM
OK. Great info all. My point was that I think when many people think S/A, they think of America. (I now know about the name issue) That's my thing. I'm not knocking their products, heck I'm a Glock guy. But I know my Glock is Austrian. Same with Taurus. I know it's Brazilian. I'll bet that the vast majority of shooters think S/A products are American made. The use of the S/A name is very deceptive IMO.

It also doesn't help that Springfield uses the slogan "the oldest name in American firearms".

SP2000
January 20, 2014, 04:04 PM
I always thought the xd/xdm was the only import SA was offering, boy was I wrong. Not that it matters because I don't really like xd's that much anyways but it's still good to know. That's why I like these forums. You learn something new all the time. So the only %100 American made 1911's are from kimber, colt, sti (not spartan), Wilson combat, ed brown, ruger, les Baer. Wow this is sad, we need more American made 1911's that are in the lower to mid price range. Now I feel bad for wanting a rock island 2011.it must be impossible make a 1911 in America for around $550.

The Ruger is just a bit over $600.

Old Dog
January 20, 2014, 04:20 PM
I'll bet that the vast majority of shooters think S/A products are American made. The use of the S/A name is very deceptive IMO.NO, the vast majority of 1911 enthusiasts who already own, or actually research Springfield Amory products know that SA imports frames and slides from IMBEL (which, by the way, is a terrific grade of steel).

How is using the name Springfield Armory any more deceptive than Remington still using the Bushmaster and Marlin names? Gee, let's not even talk about who owns the Winchester name now, and where they're made ... Say what? Japan?

Guess none of you all-American types wear Levis made in Vietnam or Sri Lanka or wherever they're made now ... Or Danner boots made in China.

SA has been producing quality firearms since the reincarnation of the brand.

The contradictory stances of gun guys are almost funny some times. Like the folks who quit buying SIGs when the company started making them in the USA, instead of Germany.

It's a global economy now. Time to move on.

JTQ
January 20, 2014, 04:22 PM
So the only %100 American made 1911's are from kimber, colt, sti (not spartan), Wilson combat, ed brown, ruger, les Baer.

SIG makes all their 1911's in the US.

Auto Ordnance 1911's are made in the US.

S&W makes all their 1911's in the US.

I'm sure there are other's, with more popping up it seems everyday.

Tony k
January 20, 2014, 04:30 PM
How many zero's in a Brazilian anyway????

I just got the joke. Man I'm slow!:confused:

Seriously though, it's kind of amazing how so many companies try to give the impression that they are USA made. The SA pitch "oldest name in American firearms" or whatever is a good example, but they aint the only one who do it. I even own a baseball cap with an american flag label that says "made in china" :confused:

Yep, the STI Spartans are built from a Fillipino (I think) frame. The higher end ones are all USA made. I've been looking into getting an STI because I thought they were all USA made. The company definately gives the impression of Texas pride of workmanship. Granted, you're getting a finely tuned firearm with a Spartan, but why don't I just go buy a Rock Island commander size and have it tuned and customized by someone else?

The Brazilians, Austrians, Croats, and Fillipinos should be proud of their industrial strengths. I'll buy their stuff knowing I'm getting quality products. However, my current gun lust is for a Kahr CW45. Made in USA (right?).

RX-79G
January 20, 2014, 04:30 PM
It is "the oldest name". If it was the oldest company, they wouldn't have used the word "name".

All ads or slogans are written like this. It isn't deceptive if the words mean exactly what they say, and not what you think they imply.

SP2000
January 20, 2014, 05:22 PM
NO, the vast majority of 1911 enthusiasts who already own, or actually research Springfield Amory products know that SA imports frames and slides from IMBEL (which, by the way, is a terrific grade of steel).

How is using the name Springfield Armory any more deceptive than Remington still using the Bushmaster and Marlin names? Gee, let's not even talk about who owns the Winchester name now, and where they're made ... Say what? Japan?

Guess none of you all-American types wear Levis made in Vietnam or Sri Lanka or wherever they're made now ... Or Danner boots made in China.

SA has been producing quality firearms since the reincarnation of the brand.

The contradictory stances of gun guys are almost funny some times. Like the folks who quit buying SIGs when the company started making them in the USA, instead of Germany.

It's a global economy now. Time to move on.

Because Bushmaster and Marlin weren't US arsenals. They're not an American icon. I'm not questioning the quality. I'm not saying you have to buy all american made. I'm just saying that when I hear the name Springfield Armory I think of American products or American guns. And I think Springfield wants many people to still associate their name with the original arsenal. Again, IMO, its deceptive. When I buy a Taurus, I know its Brazilian, when I buy a Glock I know its Austrian. Again, this is all just an average joes opinion.

Fiv3r
January 20, 2014, 06:06 PM
I guess I just don't listen to marketing jargon that closely. I don't think of SA as being a premier US gun manufacturer. Then again, I have owned several glocks and none of them were "Perfection".

Before I buy a gun, I do my homework on the reviews of the pistol as well as the reviews of CS. When I went to buy a "nice" 1911, I didn't have a budget over $1000. I found out that the SA models on the higher end of the scale have a forged frame instead of a cast one, are generally reliable with any kind of ammo (not looking for a super picky tack driver, just a good shooter), and have good fit and finish.

My big buying hang up isn't where a gun is made. It's about from where it is purchased. I buy local. To me, it makes more sense to give a LGS my hard earned dollar instead of an online outfit if they are knowledgeable and truthful and treat me fairly. It may cost me about $50 on average after I figure in shipping and FFL fee, but it's worth it. THAT is what is going to drive the economy in a real sense. Multi million dollar companies are not in the business of making a product stateside because of the warm-and-fuzzies. They're in business to make as much money as possible. Sometimes, the PR of having a lot of guns made stateside outweighs the fiscal benefit per unit as that will mean greater profit in the long run....sometimes it does not and manufacturing is shipped overseas.

You can bet your bottom dollar that every manufacturer puts numbers into some of sort of matrix when it decides where it wants to make its wears. The thing that I feel that I can control is where the money goes initially. Buying local puts food on my "neighbors" table.

RX-79G
January 20, 2014, 06:07 PM
And when you buy a SIG you expect it to be a SigSauer - a Swiss/German design produced in the US. ;)


I assume you haven't run across one of those foreign made 1911s with the word "American" in the title.

Esoxchaser
January 20, 2014, 06:16 PM
My EMP doesn't say where it's made on it. I don't care because there is nothing comparable that I know for a fact is made in USA. IF there were a short action, ultra reliable, very accurate mini 1911 manufactured in the USA, I would have one. As it is my only choice is Springfield.

mwr25906
January 20, 2014, 06:17 PM
I had a Charles Daly 1911 it was manufactured in phillipines imported by kb sports and charles daly i believe was a japanese owned company at the time

mwr25906
January 20, 2014, 06:27 PM
My friends colts and springfields were loose and shot like it my CD was tight n right i used it for my ccw class and the instructors carrying springfields costing doublw what mine cost were beside themselves

SP2000
January 20, 2014, 06:31 PM
I just feel that the iconic American gun, the 1911, should be American made. Just like I wouldn't want an american made CZ-75. Similar to having "com bloc" AK's. Just one of those things.

RX-79G
January 20, 2014, 06:51 PM
Sure you do. But when Springfield 1911s were getting popular it was because they were offered for prices that couldn't have been US made. Their basic gun was something like $400 just a few years ago.

Jolly Rogers
January 20, 2014, 07:00 PM
You posters that exclaim surprise that Springfield Armory uses materials and parts from other nations should search any of 2 or 3 dedicated forums about 1911s and see how long it has been common knowledge. Several forums have actually stickied threads so the subject does not get revisited every other day.:neener:
Joe

9mmepiphany
January 20, 2014, 08:09 PM
IMO, its deceptive. When I buy a Taurus, I know its Brazilian, when I buy a Glock I know its Austrian. Again, this is all just an average joes opinion.
Your posting this a couple of times already has me worried that you might actually believe it.

You know that Glocks are now made in GA, right?

BTW: Under American made 1911s, you left out S&W and Dan Wesson...both of which are lower to mid-price range pistols

SP2000
January 20, 2014, 08:37 PM
Your posting this a couple of times already has me worried that you might actually believe it.

You know that Glocks are now made in GA, right?

BTW: Under American made 1911s, you left out S&W and Dan Wesson...both of which are lower to mid-price range pistols

It was my understanding that they are assembled in GA although I could be wrong. All I know is that my Glocks say Austria. I know that when I bought my Beretta 92 Inox that I made sure it was Italian.

twofifty
January 20, 2014, 08:49 PM
http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z334/TailoAltera/gunpix1053.jpg (http://s1184.photobucket.com/user/TailoAltera/media/gunpix1053.jpg.html)

My Springfield Armory M1911-A1, acquired new in 1988, was manufactured in Brazil and assembled here in the U.S. I believe the retail price was somewhere around $279 and at the time it seemed like a real bargain, compared to what Colt Governments were going for (that is if you could find them). Fit and finish were first rate, the gun itself was nice and tight with close tolerances, and it had a decent trigger right out of the box.

When I got it my first intention was to eventually have it customized by a leading M1911 gunsmith with all the bells and whistles. But the more I used it the more I came to appreciate it for its reliability and performance in its original stock configuration. So I left it as is and still continue to enjoy it just the way it came from Springfield Armory.
Bannockburn, your Springfield Armory looks like it's had maybe 1000 rounds through it.
What's with that?

Tcruse
January 20, 2014, 09:59 PM
OK. Great info all. My point was that I think when many people think S/A, they think of America. (I now know about the name issue) That's my thing. I'm not knocking their products, heck I'm a Glock guy. But I know my Glock is Austrian. Same with Taurus. I know it's Brazilian. I'll bet that the vast majority of shooters think S/A products are American made. The use of the S/A name is very deceptive IMO.
I suspect that we will see most of the Glocks in the US built in the US. Glock 42 is a US only made product.

9mmepiphany
January 20, 2014, 10:42 PM
It was my understanding that they are assembled in GA although I could be wrong. All I know is that my Glocks say Austria

The frames have been produced in GA since about 2007. The changed the slide treatment so it can be applied domestically and now mark the slides with a Georgia "proofmark" below the extractor

http://www.theoutdoorstrader.com/classifieds/images/2012_12_08/21971/1355006856_1.JPG

...and USA on the slide

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/CIMG1930.JPG

splithoof
January 21, 2014, 12:37 AM
I may have what are considered opposite ends of the spectrum: Nighthawk Custom & Norinco. Also having a slew of 1911's from SA, Colt, S&W, Kimber, Caspian, AMT, etc., I can say that the Norinco (China) continues to function 100%.

farscott
January 21, 2014, 03:11 PM
It is my understanding that SA has severed its relationship with IMBEL and is now sourcing frames from an American concern per some posts on the 1911Forum.

astra600
January 21, 2014, 04:16 PM
My Springfield Armory M1 Garands' receiver was made in Australia. Some parts are G.I., some are new made, ie: not G.I. But supposedly to G.I. spec.
I have a CZ made in Czechoslovakia and one made in the Czech Republic. I wonder which one is better.......... I bought them both here, in the USA.

jjones45
January 21, 2014, 11:02 PM
It's been a while since I had a springer 1911. Can one of you guys who own one tell me what it says on the gun as to where it's made. Just a guess that it doesn't say where it's made, just probably where Springfield armory is located. It's not a big deal but I like my guns to say made in USA, Germany or wherever.

SP2000
January 22, 2014, 12:05 AM
It's been a while since I had a springer 1911. Can one of you guys who own one tell me what it says on the gun as to where it's made. Just a guess that it doesn't say where it's made, just probably where Springfield armory is located. It's not a big deal but I like my guns to say made in USA, Germany or wherever.

They say Brazil.

SP2000
January 22, 2014, 12:07 AM
193944

Old Dog
January 22, 2014, 02:11 AM
It's not a big deal but I like my guns to say made in USA, Germany or wherever.My SA TRP was made in Illinois. My Loaded SS Champion was made in Brazil. I like 'em both.

Has this been covered already? Not ALL of Springfield's 1911s are made in Brazil -- their higher-end models (above the Loaded) are in fact either put together in Geneseo, Illinois or completely made there ...

I'm getting curious as to why the prejudice against guns produced in Brazil or Croatia ... Especially when the bias is coming from folks whom I know are watching televisions made in Japan, driving cars from Japan or Korea, wearing boots made in China, Nikes made in Thailand, underwear made in Sri Lanka, shirts made in Bangladesh ... and sipping Starbucks coffee, beans by way of ... Brazil ...

9mmepiphany
January 22, 2014, 02:36 AM
Has this been covered already? Not ALL of Springfield's 1911s are made in Brazil -- their higher-end models (above the Loaded) are in fact either put together in Geneseo, Illinois or completely made there ...
This has been disproven a number of times and there is even a letter from Springfield Armory...on one of the 1911 centric forums...stating as much. I just had a chance to speak to their head of CS at the SHOT Show and thanked her for putting out that letter and putting the rumors to rest.

There are NO Springfield Armory 1911s that are completely made in the USA. All of their 1911 pistols start life in Brazil at the IMBEL factory. If your Springfield 1911 is marked "Made in USA", it means that more than 50% of the assembly/fitting/machining was completed domestically

hentown
January 22, 2014, 08:07 AM
When "American Made" doesn't also mean "Union Made", then I'm all for buying American.

Anybody really think that the best steel is made in the U.S.? Maybe 100 years ago, but not in modern history.

SP2000
January 22, 2014, 09:11 AM
I have no problem with foreign guns at all. All I'm saying is IMO, an American classic like the 1911 should be made in America. (Especially when using the name Springfield Armory)

Sam1911
January 22, 2014, 10:08 AM
:) Then by all means, buy the company and change their practices to make it so! It's a free country and that's your right. Exercise your rights to make the change you want to see!

HOOfan_1
January 22, 2014, 10:14 AM
I have no problem with foreign guns at all. All I'm saying is IMO, an American classic like the 1911 should be made in America. (Especially when using the name Springfield Armory)

They chose that name specifically to co-opt off of the traditional name....just like a number of other companies which have done the same thing.

Springfield Armory in Illinois co-opts the name of Springfield Armory, Massachusetts
Rock Island Armory in Nevada co-opts the name of Rock Island Arsenal in Illinois

Sam1911
January 22, 2014, 10:19 AM
For a bigger chunk to swallow, there's Henry Repeating Arms.

They have the good grace to put the history of Henry and the current state of the name on two separate pages (http://henryrepeating.com/about-henry-repeating.cfm) but they do come right out and claim, "...a descendant of the venerable gunmaker."

One is tempted to ask, "In what way?" But the answer seems moot.

I'm planning to buy the company someday and rename it, "Historicky Looking Rifle Company." Think that will catch on?

powder
January 22, 2014, 10:40 AM
I'm not questioning the quality. I'm just saying that I'm not buying a 1911 with "Brazil" stamped on the side of it. Taurus is different. Its a Brazilian company. I just don't get why a company that many see as an American icon, would use Brazilian frames in "the American gun".
Yup, go figure. They also came up with some design acronym for "USA", which actually for their pistols stands for something other than United States of America. Now, if you have no problem w/the pistols being made in Croatia, fine. How's about being openly deceived by it being a "USA" pistol? Goofy.

torqem
January 22, 2014, 10:42 AM
I'm pretty sure that Spld has always imported their frames,and probably their slides. they have cut their ejectors very thin, so that one size fits .40 and 9mm too. Thus, their slides are "off" a bit as to the dimensions of the ejector slot, compared to regular 1911's. it's not as stupid a weakness as the Series 80 Colt firing pin lock and the half strength extractor, but its a weakness. the Mainspring housing lock, to make it CA legal, was a stroke of genius by Spld

Sam1911
January 22, 2014, 10:51 AM
They also came up with some design acronym for "USA", which actually for their pistols stands for something other than United States of America. Now, if you have no problem w/the pistols being made in Croatia, fine. How's about being openly deceived by it being a "USA" pistol? Goofy.Can you expand on that? What design aspect is USA? My xDM doesn't seem to have "USA" printed on it anywhere.

JTQ
January 22, 2014, 10:57 AM
Can you expand on that? What design aspect is USA? My xDM doesn't seem to have "USA" printed on it anywhere.

Ultra Safety Assurance (USA) Trigger System on the XD line. http://www.springfield-armory.com/xdfeatures.php

Sam1911
January 22, 2014, 11:08 AM
Ahhh. I'd never heard of it. Guess it wasn't exactly a big part of their marketing.

Old Dog
January 22, 2014, 12:58 PM
This has been disproven a number of times and there is even a letter from Springfield Armory...on one of the 1911 centric forums...stating as much. I just had a chance to speak to their head of CS at the SHOT Show and thanked her for putting out that letter and putting the rumors to rest.

There are NO Springfield Armory 1911s that are completely made in the USA. All of their 1911 pistols start life in Brazil at the IMBEL factory. If your Springfield 1911 is marked "Made in USA", it means that more than 50% of the assembly/fitting/machining was completed domestically
Well, then. I stand corrected. Emphatically (like the red "no.") Thank you.

Sergei Mosin
January 22, 2014, 01:09 PM
Which one is the American gun - is it my Brazilian-built Springfield 1911 or my Maryland-built Beretta M9, or maybe my SIG built in New Hampshire? I can never remember...

(Reminds me of when my dad was giving me a hard time about buying a Japanese truck. I pointed out that my Mazda was built in New Jersey and his Ford was built in Canada. Don't even get me started on our British-built Honda.)

SP2000
January 22, 2014, 01:46 PM
Which one is the American gun - is it my Brazilian-built Springfield 1911 or my Maryland-built Beretta M9, or maybe my SIG built in New Hampshire? I can never remember...

(Reminds me of when my dad was giving me a hard time about buying a Japanese truck. I pointed out that my Mazda was built in New Jersey and his Ford was built in Canada. Don't even get me started on our British-built Honda.)

I know what you're saying but for me, if I'm buying a Beretta 92 and its available as "made in Italy", that's what I'm doing. IMO, certain guns kinda "belong to" certain places. It'd be like a Japanese Harley Davidson. The quality may be better but "its just not right".
The 1911 should be american if possible.

Old Dog
January 22, 2014, 02:03 PM
Well, then a lot of you guys are passing on some pretty good guns solely because of where they're put together ... the 1911 is an American design, but as I noted before, we're in the era of the global economy. If I have a really nice 1911, I hardly care if it's made by some Tibetan monk in Katmandu ...

Do you not eat produce during the winter because, even though it might be fruit or vegetables originally indigenous to North America, it's coming up to your grocery from Mexico, Central or South America?

Here's what I noted before:
I'm getting curious as to why the prejudice against guns produced in Brazil or Croatia ... Especially when the bias is coming from folks whom I know are watching televisions made in Japan, driving cars from Japan or Korea, wearing boots made in China, Nikes made in Thailand, underwear made in Sri Lanka, shirts made in Bangladesh ... and sipping Starbucks coffee, beans by way of ... Brazil ...

It's GOTTA be a lot of work making sure everything you purchase is American made ... or do you feel this way only about 1911s? And if it's only 1911s, why not any other consumer product?

certain guns kinda "belong to" certain places.Why?
Now you only want Berettas made in Italy? What about your cell phone? Good luck finding one of these made in the USA.

Winchester is a venerable American name, veritably an icon ... Do I mind that my rifle marked "Winchester" is actually made in Japan? Not really, it's a doggone nice rifle, and a lot nicer than the last ones marked Winchester that came off the line in the good ol' USA.

BSA1
January 22, 2014, 08:30 PM
SP2000,

I see you slept through your geography in school or you would know Brazil is in America...South America.

Old Dog has it right.

Why are you bashing a company that has been in business for 40 years, is one of the largest firearms companies in the world and a major active ally in fighting against gun control laws?

Seems to me you should determine who are on gun owners side before you kick sand in their face.

19-3Ben
January 22, 2014, 09:08 PM
To me, the little sticker on the back of the box that says "Made in USA" is absolutely critically important.

That's why I put one of those stickers on everything I buy. :neener:

C'mon guys. Lighten up and have some fun with it. If you don't like a 1911 that isn't from the USA, simply don't buy one. It's really pretty simple. There are plenty of options.

jjones45
January 22, 2014, 09:37 PM
Unfortunately the not made in the USA part is what makes some of theses guns affordable. I wonder how much Springfield 1911's cost in Brazil

Sergei Mosin
January 22, 2014, 10:15 PM
I guess I just don't look for ideological purity in my guns. If I did I wouldn't have any guns.

Baba Louie
January 22, 2014, 10:34 PM
While I'd love to own an original Springfield Armory 1911, they're kind of pricey and sort of old with poor heat treatment compared to todays metallurgical processing, so I'm more than ok settling with an IMBEL made version with the -A1 added to it's moniker for the price point difference and shootability (? probably not a real word?). Those boys in South America can build a nice firearm when they have a mind to.

Same goes with my SAR-48, but heck, I even like my PT-99 and Norinco Model of the 1911-A1. Then again, I knew where these were made when I bought them and enjoy them none-the-less. Maybe more so in a perverse fashion.

I'm cheap. What can I say? Just trying to stimulate a small part of the world economy, one firearm at a time. :D

Besides, Springfield Armory has great customer service and a pretty nice custom shop to add to the "mfg. out of state?" equation and soften the "not made here" blow, should that ever be needed or desired.

And look what they've done with those HS2000s. Goodness me.

HOOfan_1
January 23, 2014, 07:42 AM
Did the Springfield Armory (Government) ever produce 1911s? I didn't think they did.

tarosean
January 23, 2014, 07:51 AM
^ Yes they were one of the original contractors making the M1911

Pilot
January 23, 2014, 09:18 AM
Springfield pulled a marketing coup when the bought the rights to that name. Before I bought my stainless Milspec in 1993, I assumed it was from the original U.S. armory, then when I looked closely at it, and saw "Brazil" on the frame, I asked the gun store guy, whom I trusted. He said they were good guns, and guys were buying them to build up Bullseye guns, so I bought it anyway. It turned out to be a good purchase.

AK103K
January 23, 2014, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by bannockburn:
http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z334/TailoAltera/gunpix1053.jpg

My Springfield Armory M1911-A1, acquired new in 1988, was manufactured in Brazil and assembled here in the U.S. I believe the retail price was somewhere around $279 and at the time it seemed like a real bargain, compared to what Colt Governments were going for (that is if you could find them). Fit and finish were first rate, the gun itself was nice and tight with close tolerances, and it had a decent trigger right out of the box.

When I got it my first intention was to eventually have it customized by a leading M1911 gunsmith with all the bells and whistles. But the more I used it the more I came to appreciate it for its reliability and performance in its original stock configuration. So I left it as is and still continue to enjoy it just the way it came from Springfield Armory.
__________________

I bought a couple of Springfield GI 1911's back in the mid 80's. They came in a plastic bag, as a "kit", and sold for $250. They were "the best" Springfields Ive owned, and Ive owned quite a few. They were also the only Springfields I owned that closely followed GI/Colt specs. Everything beyond, was all over the place.

If you look closely at the frame, especially the radius on the dust cover, and the radius of the front strap, and the gap between where the radius ends and the edge of the grip, you'll see what I mean.

Now compare it to the Springfield in SP2000's pic. See how boxy the dust cover is, and how the front strap isnt radiused properly, and the gap between the grip and radius has grown.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=193944&d=1390367238

The feel in your hand just between later Springfields and earlier guns, is quite dramatic. The "reach" fore and aft feels off and considerably longer.

Many of the later guns, will not fit in kydex holsters adjusted for a GI/Colt gun at all, and often wont fit properly molded leather holsters as well. That boxy dust cover, with the sharp, squared off corners, tears up leather holsters something terrible too.

To make matters worse, those frame dimensions vary widely, even in the same run of guns.

Here are a couple of my last Springfields along with a Colt GM for comparison.

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b7d700b3127ccec27f5503d88300000010O00CYuWbdo5bsQe3nwk/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00107947390120070921151938451.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

The two on top are the Springfields. They were "GI" models Springfield brought out in the late 90's, and were bought about a week apart, and are only a couple of hundred numbers apart in the serial number range. If you look closely, you can see quite a difference in the frames.

Weevil
January 23, 2014, 01:49 PM
I have a CZ made in Czechoslovakia and one made in the Czech Republic. I wonder which one is better.......... I bought them both here, in the USA.


Actually they're from the same place.

In '93 the Czech and the Slovaks split up into seperate countries. They had always been seperate nations but usually under the rule of one empire or another. They were combined into one country after WWI when the allies were carving up the Austian empire. After the fall of the Soviet empire which controlled them after WWII they agreed to peacefully seperate into the Czech Republic and Slovakia.

Robert101
January 23, 2014, 05:32 PM
Taking into account all of the above....... SA has great customer service. I ask and they respond. Great company to deal with.

AK103K
January 23, 2014, 05:39 PM
Taking into account all of the above....... SA has great customer service.
Thats great and all, and you hear it a lot in their defense, but I really prefer the companies who have customer service departments who nobody has heard of, because you dont have to call them. ;)

Old Dog
January 23, 2014, 07:23 PM
I really prefer the companies who have customer service departments who nobody has heard of, because you dont have to call them.Pray let us know when you find one of these companies.

AK103K
January 23, 2014, 08:09 PM
So far, SIG and HK havent needed any calls, and in 25+ years, Glock only once. ;)

I had Springfield on speed dial there for awhile.

JohnBT
January 23, 2014, 09:20 PM
"I have a CZ made in Czechoslovakia and one made in the Czech Republic."

I know two waitresses at the beach, one a little older than the other. If asked, one will answer that she is from Czechoslovakia and the other will say the CR.

They're from the same town.

SA using Brazilian frames is common knowledge that's been discussed on every internet gun forum since the last century. There was a big article in Shooting Times or somesuch magazine 14 or 15 years ago

Balrog
January 23, 2014, 10:03 PM
Nice idiot mark on the Springfield.

Jim K
January 23, 2014, 10:21 PM
Springfield Armory, Inc. didn't have to "buy the rights" to the name; the U.S. government never protected the name Springfield Armory, so SA, Inc. just took it. They started by making semi-auto M14 clones (they still do) and AFAIK made the receivers in the U.S. by casting (the original government arms were forged) and using M14 surplus parts. They were reasonably good guns and mine has been fine. The surplus parts are long gone, and I don't know if those guns are still made here, but they have other guns made all over.

The U.S. government rarely trademarks anything, so companies like "Rock Island" can use the name of that government arsenal. There is nothing to prevent a company from calling itself "The White House", and some do. I suppose the government could sue if a company went too far, AFAIK that has never happened.

BTW, yes, the original government Springfield Armory did make some 25,000 M1911 pistols, 1912-1914; part of the contract with Colt allowed the government to make its own pistols on the Colt/Browning patents. The government factory was not a contractor; it was owned by the Army and made guns as ordered by the Chief of Ordnance.

Jim

StrawHat
January 24, 2014, 07:08 AM
I am new to 1911s and have looked around a bit. Caspian has it's slides and frames cast in the U.S.A., I believe by Pine Tree Castings. I am not sure where the small parts are made.

RX-79G
January 24, 2014, 10:31 AM
As I noted earlier, the M1A receivers also came from Imbel.

AK103K
January 24, 2014, 10:44 AM
The M1A's also seem to have been affected by fluctuating specs.

My 80's-90's era M1A's were great guns. My last, a SOCOM, which was "all" Springfield, had a lot of issues, and was a constant problem, and could not be disassembled for cleaning with out a small screwdriver.

Old Dog
January 24, 2014, 03:12 PM
Have we reached any kind of consensus in this thread? Is the prevailing opinion that it matters not that SA components come from ... gasp! -- Brazil?

If there are QC issues by certain gun companies that may import portions or all parts for their firearms from a certain South American country -- it would certainly seem that these QC issues are right here in the good ol' USA, at the companies headquarters in Illinois or Florida where the guns are assembled and inspected.

I've only owned about 20 SA 1911s since 1991 to the present, so perhaps I'm not as qualified as some here to comment on the state of this company's products, but I've always had a good one, and only contacted the CS to order stuff or plan custom work -- as I suspect most SA customers do.

As far as this remark: So far, SIG and HK havent needed any calls, and in 25+ years, Glock only onceWell, good for you, but I know many who've had issues with recent production SIGs (including myself) and there's a good reason that every LE agency in this country that once had a contract for HK pistols has since dumped 'em.

RX-79G
January 24, 2014, 03:30 PM
...there's a good reason that every LE agency in this country that once had a contract for HK pistols has since dumped 'em.
Yeah, price.

The reason that S&W was dumped for Glocks, and Glocks are now being dumped for S&W.

TimboKhan
January 24, 2014, 03:36 PM
This one is done. There isn't anything that needs to be said that hasn't been said in the preceding four pages. The horse is dead, y'all.

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