Own cheap autoloader for CCW in unfriendly jurisdictions?


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Grayrider
March 30, 2004, 10:00 PM
Gents,

Now that I will soon be having CCW for the first time here in Missouri, a number of questions have come to mind. I have worked out my choice of guns and leather. Another question involves dealing with unfriendly law enforcement agencies. We already have some jurisdictions here that have talked openly about confiscating guns to see if they are legally owned (read St. Louis). Do those of you who have had CCW rights for a while see any advantage in owning something cheap to carry in such places, so your $1K (fill in the name) favorite CCW gun doesn't get taken and treated like trash by some hostile LEO? I recall the story of a local LEO who had his MP-5 confiscated by unfriendly officers in another jurisdiction. When he got it back one had already carved his initials into the receiver. Ouch.

This is further complicated by my conviction that if ones life is worth preserving, it is worth spending the money on a reliable gun to protect it. But then I am a sucker for a fancy 1911, and that is another story....

:D

GR

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Grump
March 30, 2004, 10:46 PM
Yeah, St. Louis is famous for respecting Constitutional rights. They got caught in a policy of pulling over almost all expen$ive autos driven by dark male people, on the theory that they could not afford such a ride unless they were pimps. The PD confiscated a distressingly large number of .25 and .32 autos from people who were neither inclined to, nor financially capable of (in too many instances), challenge their racist bull-pookie.

Wonder how many high-crime area residents got robbed or shot or stabbed because their Roscoes had been confiscated.

Grayrider
March 30, 2004, 10:52 PM
I hear you. The politicians from up there call the rest of the state "out Missouri", as in outside of any area worth considering important. Oh well, out here in the country we are plenty happy with our unimportant and peaceful way of life.

:D

(No offense to any of you good people up there in St. Louis--I know there are plenty of you!)

GR

lee n. field
March 30, 2004, 11:29 PM
The politicians from up there call the rest of the state "out Missouri", as in outside of any area worth considering important.

That sounds about as galling as "downstate" (ie. the rest of Illinois).

ny32182
March 30, 2004, 11:32 PM
I have a used PT-92 that I paid $278 for for the exact situation you describe, and also to have something fun and cheap to really shoot the hell out of on the range. At least if it gets stolen out of my car or added to some upstanding LEO's personal collection during a traffic stop, I'm not out 700-1000 bucks.

It stovepipes once every few hundred rounds with WWB, but has been stone reliable with every brand of +P I've ever fed it, and since I keep 15 gold dots stuffed in it when its not seeing range time, I trust it to do its job if ever called upon.

KaceCoyote
March 30, 2004, 11:43 PM
Hey man. Yeah I'm getting a peice with that in mind actually. I've been hassled over wearing a blade before even. I'd suggest a Steyr. They're very cheap now through Gunbroker.com We should hookup and go shootin or somethin dude.

P95Carry
March 30, 2004, 11:57 PM
A Ruger P series will not break the bank .... even if a tad ''bulky''!!

P95 in 9mm or the .45acp P97. Built tough ... dependable ..... but a touch ''fugly'' :D

gbelleh
March 31, 2004, 12:22 AM
I have a few guns that I could carry in a situation like that: Kel-Tec P-11, P-32, Taurus 85. All could be replaced much easier than a P7 or custom 1911.

Mr. Mysterious
March 31, 2004, 12:39 AM
The current batch of Steyrs are great values at ~300. But after you get it you'll be heartbroken if anything happens to it.

Condition One
March 31, 2004, 12:52 AM
I'm a new guy here and also an "out state" Missouri resident. Christian County to be exact. Our sheriff has started taking applications for CCW so I have been thinking of carry guns also. I've got a little Glock 26 and all though it's not a cheep gun, I would rather lose it than one of my 1911's. Also I'm kinda thinking of one of those KelTec 380's.

Shoot Safe.........CO

Zundfolge
March 31, 2004, 01:14 AM
I was going to suggest a Makarov ... but like a Steyr, even though its inexpensive you'll be upset if they take it.

So I say pick up an FEG PA63 ... they can be had for cheap and are reliable (and 9x18 ain't too weak)

http://makarov.com/graphics/others/pa63_2.jpg


The downside is that in the parts of the states run by anti gun JBTs I bet you'll find their violent crime rates are higher and you might be more likely to need something more powerful.


We already have some jurisdictions here that have talked openly about confiscating guns to see if they are legally owned (read St. Louis).
Something tells me its just angry antis with badges who are blustering ... first few law suits and they'll back down (plus I can't think of one reason to ever set foot in St. Louis anyway).

Preacherman
March 31, 2004, 01:50 AM
Folks, with all due respect, this is silly! Why do you carry a gun in the first place? Answer - to protect you in a life-threatening situation. Carry the gun that you can shoot best to ensure that your life is, indeed, protected! You don't have to carry a multi-thousand-dollar gunsmith's dream, but don't be afraid to spend money on a quality handgun of adequate performance to do its job.

If confiscation happens for some reason, you should get the gun back in due course - and besides, what are you doing with only one example of your carry weapon? You should always have at least two, so that if you have to use one and it's confiscated as evidence, you have an answer to any friends of the guy(s) you shot who are looking for evens.

Also, if your primary gun goes down due to a malfunction or breakage, and you have to send it away for repairs, you're stuck unless you've got a backup. For every "serious" carry gun I have, I have a second copy of it sitting ready in the gunsafe, just in case.

ny32182
March 31, 2004, 02:05 AM
Preacherman, I shoot the guns I own with approximately the same proficiency. I carry my P226/.40 most of the time because it has never malfunctioned.

I take my cheap Taurus 9mm with me when I go to places where I think the local LEOs may be less gun friendly: i.e., cities/populated areas. If the Taurus gets confiscated, the 226 is waiting (and vice versa).

I don't see any problem with being a little prudent in this regard. And, I'd rather own a variety than multiple copies of the exact same gun. YMMV, of course....

1911Tuner
March 31, 2004, 08:12 AM
I carry a FrankenGun that I built up from a gaggle of parts. It's
a bastard stepshild, but is dead reliable and accurate enough for the task at hand...about 4 inches at 25 yards from a rest...If it were taken away,
it would hurt my feelings, but wouldn't break my heart.

I agree with Preacherman 100% that you shouldn't go cheap on a
tool that you may have to rely on to get you home alive...and that you should have at least one other near clone of your primary carry gun,
and for all the reasons that he stated.

As for redundancy...I have 33 1911s...soon to be 34.:cool:

Cheers!

Tuner

nhhillbilly
March 31, 2004, 08:47 AM
If St. Louis is taking away your rights sue them in Federal Court and you will be able to purchase any gun you want when you win. If you have a CCW and are legal go after them whole hog.

1911Tuner
March 31, 2004, 08:59 AM
nhhillbilly said:

If St. Louis is taking away your rights sue them in Federal Court and you will be able to purchase any gun you want when you win. If you have a CCW and are legal go after them whole hog.

:cool:

I like the way this guy thinks....

Welcome to THR hillbilly.

Tuner

Grayrider
March 31, 2004, 09:44 AM
Those Steyrs look interesting. I handled one at the last show with this question in mind, but the dealer told me they have 6.5 lbs. triggers. Is that the case? If so, I would have to pass. It sure pointed well, and CDNN has them for peanuts.

I had thought about what Preacherman and 1911Tuner said as well. Having plenty of 1911s (not on par with you yet Tuner) I could just run with one of my less favorite models. Probably my polymer Pro Carry or BP10. Stuff it with some 10 round mags rather than my expensive 14 rounders. Either that or keep my eyes out for a deal on something plane-jane, like a Mil Spec SA.

I don't venture into St. Louis or other metro areas often, but the wife likes to take weekend trips to the city. I am also going to be doing a little traveling this year to some other CCW reciprocating states where I won't be as familiar with the local LEOs attitudes. I would sure hate to leave one of my favorite pistols that far away.

GR

Mr. Mysterious
March 31, 2004, 09:54 AM
The stuff that I've read says that they trigger pull on the Steyr is ~5lbs. You can change the sear and up it to 7lbs if you wan. Originally I think they shipped with heavy triggers (probably where the 6.5lb rumor started) and then they went to the ~5lbs. I don't have any thing to measure my trigger with, but it is very short and very crisp. It blows the trigger on my SW99 out of the water. It is supposodly a double action trigger, but it is so short it feels like a single action. It's pretty nice.

If you get one you won't be sorry...they are definitely a sweet little package.

cerberus
March 31, 2004, 01:53 PM
For about $500 a Glock is a good choice.

armoredman
March 31, 2004, 02:44 PM
For $600 get either two Witness or CZs. One to carry, the other to replace while other is in evidence room, barring the likelyhood LE will confiscate ALL your firearms while awaiting trial......:(

Black Snowman
March 31, 2004, 02:47 PM
CZ 75s and their varients can be had new from about $400 to $600 depending on the specific model and finish. Sometime you can find them used for a good price.

I just bought a used CZ 75B in 9mm and plan on getting a CZ 75 Compact to go with it and maybe down the road a RAMI for a pocket gun.

The 75 and the Compact are going to be very similar and I imagine the Compact will become my primary carry piece if we can get the KS CCW legislation past our Gov, I've got my fingers crossed, and the full size will be my spare. RAMI will be a BUG for the compact and the FS or a pocket gun for when wearing on the belt isn't feasable.

Won't have two of the same gun but will have two that are very close.

eyz
March 31, 2004, 03:08 PM
Bersa Thunder 380 $200, Makarov $179. My Russian Makarov is as accurate as my sig 239 was. Does anyone really want to spend big money for an attorney or waste countless hours and days trying to get a $400 gun back. As far as tools go a $25 shovel works just as well as a $250 shovel. The $250 shovel is just the nickel plated "insert tommy lee jones line here from US Marshalls " model.

Grayrider
March 31, 2004, 03:09 PM
The CZ would make a lot of sense. I have one, but am not too big on the caliber. Still, it runs reliably and would be cheap to replace. I think that will be my answer.

GR

Black Snowman
March 31, 2004, 03:45 PM
9mm wasn't my 1st choice, but I like the idea of quick and accurate follow-up shots. Which is why I traded off my CZ 40B. The grip just didn't work for me and it slowed down my follow-ups horribly. Good deal on a 9mm came along and I have a feeling if I shoot the 9mm until the slide locks back they'll be just as stopped as if I shoot the .40 until the slide locks back. Plus it's a bit thinner and more rounded at the end which should help concealment.

Eric is has a holster for me in the mix. Now I just need 3 non-castrated magazines, mag pouches and 9mm reloading supplies to go with my 1000+ spent case stockpile I've been saving over the years ;)

jercamp45
March 31, 2004, 04:53 PM
And I like nhhillbilly's mind!
Most of my limited collection is various sizes of 1911...cause I want thump if I ever need it. And you never know when that will be. So, I have several 1911's on my permit.....if one gets taken, I stick another in my holster and go see my lawyer to deprive the 'enlightened' city father's on some currency to add to my 1911 collection(and a large house with a large gunsafe). Wouldn't that get the Polotician's goat...win the lawsuit, then send them a thank you letter for all the pistols your were able to buy courtesy of Officer So n' So!!
Spare guns that duplicate the feel of your primary choice in carry are good to have. Parts break, Mr Murphy comes to visit, might want to carry a New York Reload, need a back up, whatever. Life is challenging enough, Keep It Simple (and) Survive!
Jercamp45

Ala Dan
March 31, 2004, 04:58 PM
One thing for sure there Grayrider my friend-

These days there is NO such thing as a cheap
self loader! Inexpensive should be inserted for
the word cheap. :cool: (Laughing Loudly) :D

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

Grayrider
March 31, 2004, 05:13 PM
I hear that! It is funny to think about how much the price has increased that I am willing to pay for a gun and consider it reasonable. Back in college, $200 was sure a stretch. Now I look at the price of a new Kimber and think it is a good deal compared to those Les Baers. Sheesh! I should get a cheaper hobby.

GR

Kurt S.
March 31, 2004, 06:16 PM
Here's another vote for carrying a "confiscatable" CCW in unfriendly zones. Shop for an inexpensive (per Ala Dan) autoloader of good reputation, break it in well, make sure you can trust it, get reasonably proficient with it, and carry it as you please.

Longbow
March 31, 2004, 06:36 PM
You can go cheap, just don't go too weak. Stay above .380 cal and you'll be just fine.;) Surplus Star 9mm pistols is a good option too.

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