Am I missing something without a 30.06?


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mainecoon
January 21, 2014, 07:53 PM
Currently I've got a 22-250 for targets and a .243 for deer. I don't need a 30.06, but everything I've heard says this is a legendary caliber that just needs to be part of a collection. Is it worth looking for some 30.06-worthy animal to shoot to justify the purchase?

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USSR
January 21, 2014, 08:09 PM
Yeah, mainecoon, you're slacking by not having a .30-06. I've had to buy 7 of them just to cover for guys like you.:D

Don

Grumulkin
January 21, 2014, 08:16 PM
It's unpatriotic to not have a 30/06.

ArchAngelCD
January 21, 2014, 08:18 PM
If you never intend on shooting anything other than Deer or small game you are just fine with your .243. If you think you will go for Mule Deer and possible larger thicker skinned game the 30-06 is the cartridge.

I own 2 main bolt action hunting rifles, both are Howa 1500's. One is in .223 and the other is a 30-06. Those two will cover any game in North America IMO. I do have other hunting rifles but they are leverguns and rimfires.

My first hunting rifle was a 30-30 and the next was a 30-06.

250-3000
January 21, 2014, 08:20 PM
Yes, I was under gunned with a couple of 308's, so broke down and bought an M1 from the CMP. My collection is now complete;)

sage5907
January 21, 2014, 08:28 PM
I used to spend a lot of time trying to decide which cartridge I liked the best. I tried the 25-06 for several years, the 270 Winchester for several years, and finally settled on the 30-06. Once I picked the 30-06 I spent the next few years trying to decide which 30-06 load I liked the best. Got that one figured out. Now I spend my time trying to decide which pre 64 Model 70 I like the best. It's a tough job but someone has to do it!

sfed
January 21, 2014, 08:39 PM
I have 2 30-06 rifles, one is a wall hanger for the most part but the other gets a lot of use. My wall hanger is a 1903 Springfield manufactured in 1915, the other is a Savage and I have multiple loads worked up for it from 125 grains to 165 grains. The 30-06 is a do everything well rifle, its uses are for everything from punching paper to coyotes or deer. I am sure if you were to go to Alaska the 30-06 would be right at home there as well.

stan rose
January 21, 2014, 08:52 PM
Even if you just use it a couple of times a year at a rifle range or for casual shooting you should own one. It's a world classic born in America.

back40
January 21, 2014, 09:04 PM
i'd say you need one. and no need to find another critter to hunt, just find a load that you and the rifle shoot accurately and use it for deer.

i wouldn't be without mine.

witchhunter
January 21, 2014, 09:04 PM
Don't you have moose up there in Maine? That's a reason right there. There are certain cartridges that are mandatory, 30/06 being one of them.

Ks5shooter
January 21, 2014, 09:16 PM
THIS^^^^^^^^^^^

savanahsdad
January 21, 2014, 09:21 PM
if you NEED a 30-06 you NEED a bigger gun , the 308win will do just about everything the 30-06 will with less recoil and in a lighter short action , plus if you hand load you will save on powder and get about the same results , now if you WANT a 30-06 and need help making the jump , well if you think you might someday want a military weapon like a M1 Garand , then go with a 30-06 that way you can share ammo,

I go from a 308win to a 270win to a 7mmWSM so I have no NEED for a 30-06 but I do want a Garand some day , just because :D





.

Steel Horse Rider
January 21, 2014, 09:28 PM
I justify my purchases of different calibers by saying that I had to because I didn't have one. I justify purchases of calibers I already own by saying "I already have the ammo for it" and sometimes I buy something just because I want it. That is how I got hooked on muzzle loaders........

An '03 Springfield or a Garand is a great addition to any collection!

Fremmer
January 21, 2014, 09:29 PM
Yes. You need one. Now start looking!

TexasEd
January 21, 2014, 09:30 PM
By having the 30-06 it gives you options. You can load it up or down. It has countless factory offerings...You also can find ammo from large retailers to mom and pop shops...Also just about every firearms company offers that caliber so you have choices in what to buy...from mice to moose you have it covered with the 30-06. Leave out the Big brown bears...not saying it won't do in a pinch...but not the first choice for many. In the world of Maine it would be a great addition to your collection. Good Luck.

Tentwing
January 21, 2014, 09:32 PM
I personally think that the day you are born you should have issued to you ( as the bare essentials in preparation for life ) a rifle in each of the following 22LR, a 30-06 , and a 12 gauge shotgun . :)

Unless you are born in the South in which case a 30-30 lever action should be added to that list. ;)

I am a huge fan of the extremely versatile 30-06.

Tentwing

sappyg
January 21, 2014, 09:50 PM
Is it worth looking for some 30.06-worthy animal to shoot to justify the purchase?

Nope,.... If it's worth shooting it's worth shooting with a 30-06

WTBguns10kOK
January 21, 2014, 09:58 PM
If you never intend on shooting anything other than Deer or small game you are just fine with your .243. If you think you will go for Mule Deer and possible larger thicker skinned game the 30-06 is the cartridge.

What, is a mule deer like a grizzly or something, compared to a regular deer?

OP, depending on your tolerance of recoil, you might buy a .30-06 and one day realize you don't really need it. Tough to say. I use .243 for mule deer and bear every year.

another pake
January 21, 2014, 10:07 PM
maincoon, don't worry about finding more animals, unless you want too.
But yeah, get that ought six, if for no other reason than to have fun punchin paper along side the other two.

You didn't say whether you reload but those three calibers can each be a blast (pun). A range day side by side would be great fun in itself. Learning the ballistics of each...and competing against yourself would be a hoot!

Welding Rod
January 21, 2014, 10:10 PM
Yes - I recommend the Garand as the platform.

rswartsell
January 21, 2014, 10:16 PM
I've (over the years) refined a Remington 700 30.06 down to a .308 Ruger (and a .308 Garand), and now to a 7mm08 Tikka. I keep it simple, below that are .22's.

I live south of the Mason - Dixon line (Shreveport, LA.). Were I north of it a 30.06 would likely be in the quiver. I would feel good with it for anything up to Brown Bear (that's WAY north of me). For that I would want .338.

I don't need it now, but for enlarging my territory and scope, nothing is more versatile. Still the universal North American Rifle cartridge until you get somewhere near the Arctic Circle.

Abel
January 21, 2014, 10:20 PM
If you are a deer hunter and you have only a 22-250 or a 243, I'd say sell both and get a really nice 30-06. I could get by with a 243 or a 22 Centerfire to kill deer, but I'd rather have a nice 3o-o6 shooting 165 grain Federal Fusion bullets doing at least 2800 FPS to hammer the point home.

Poper
January 21, 2014, 10:49 PM
Don's bought seven of them and I own four of them and I'm eyeing a Garand to boot.

I shot for many years looking sideways at the .30-06. There are so many newer, better whizbang magnums to choose from! Why would anyone want an old moth eaten .30-06? Answer: Because there is very little you can't get done with the good ol' aught six. Besides, you can get ammo anywhere that sells ammo and it is probably one of the easiest cartridges to load for.

Yea, you're missing something alright. And you need to do something about it! :D

Poper

Cee Zee
January 21, 2014, 11:12 PM
If your Mainecoon kitty gets as big as some I've seen you may need a 30.06 for it if it decides it wants to be boss. ;)

I bought my 30.06 because it's an American institution. It can be loaded up to take on moose and black bear or loaded down to kill sqirrels if you like (and still have parts left that you can find). The way they sell low power cartridges off the shelves these days it's like having a rifle that goes all the way up from a .223 to almost a .300 win mag. That is versatile. By carrying different cartridges in your pockets you can be ready for anything from rabbits to wild boar to black bear to moose. And chances are you can find a gas station in the mountains that is open on Sunday and sells 30.06 ammo. Well in normal times you can. It's not as prevalent as it once was but it still happens.

Auto426
January 21, 2014, 11:32 PM
If you don't have a 30-06 you are missing something. That something is known as "Rifle, Caliber .30, M1", or M1 Garand for short.

d2wing
January 21, 2014, 11:34 PM
Nobody should own a .300 mag because a .308 is almost as good as a 30-06 which is almost as good as a .300 mag which is almost as good as a.338 mag. Therefor no one has a right to own anything but a .308 as it is almost as good as everything else. Thus says the .clan of the .308.

CoalTrain49
January 21, 2014, 11:38 PM
No. The 308 replaced it many moons ago. Your line of reasoning would suggest that you need a 45-70 also.

46R
January 21, 2014, 11:40 PM
Every red-blooded American man needs at least one 30.06 rifle and a .45 pistol too. :neener:

Edit: Dang-it, now I'm going to have to look for a 45-70 too, probably a lever-action.

Eb1
January 21, 2014, 11:48 PM
A .308 winchester will never be a .30-06 no matter how you try to slice the pie. I would own a .30-06, but I have a .25-06, a .303 British, and a .50 caliber muzzleloader. If any of those don't get the job done be it moose to bunny. I m doing something wrong.

Clearly the .30-06 and the .45 ACP is the "All American" combo.

But I am betting the new addition, a Ruger 77/44, becomes my short range deer rifle.

savanahsdad
January 21, 2014, 11:58 PM
Nobody should own a .300 mag because a .308 is almost as good as a 30-06 which is almost as good as a .300 mag which is almost as good as a.338 mag. Therefor no one has a right to own anything but a .308 as it is almost as good as everything else. Thus says the .clan of the .308.
there is a big jump from a 30-06 to a 300win mag , there is almost no jump from a 308win to a 30-06 unless you go to a 200+gr bullet , and it that case you need a bigger gun ,

oh and I'm not in the 308 clan , I'm in the .277 & .284 clan :) but you almost made a good point , , get a 308win and a 300mag ,

savanahsdad
January 22, 2014, 12:00 AM
Every red-blooded American man needs at least one 30.06 rifle and a .45 pistol too. :neener:

Edit: Dang-it, now I'm going to have to look for a 45-70 too, probably a lever-action.
I'd go with a trap door :)

epoletna
January 22, 2014, 12:10 AM
I only own an '06 because I needed a Garand. Yeah, I know -- you can get a Garand in .308, but that's not a real Garand. So I got a Garand in .30-06 and love to shoot it. Do I need it for game? Nah. For game I can prolly make do with my .22-250, .243, 6.5X55 Swede, 6.5-06, 7mm Rem Mag, .308, or .375 H&H magnum. But reading this thread reminded me I'm shy a .45-70.

I think I'll look for a Winchester '86 in .45-70. I already have one in .50-100-450, and it's a great shooter. 450 grains of lead cast in a half-inch diameter projectile guts and skins a jack rabbit at the same time.

horsemen61
January 22, 2014, 12:28 AM
I got into reloading so I could feed my 30 06. I personally think that yes you should own one

Sheepdog1968
January 22, 2014, 12:45 AM
Based on the usages outlined in the orig post, no I don't think you need one. If you want one, then that's another story. I think you would be better served spending that money on a good class or more ammo practicing with what you have. Or, take the money and buy a 22 LR rifle so you can really shoot and practice more.

Cee Zee
January 22, 2014, 01:02 AM
there is almost no jump from a 308win to a 30-06 unless you go to a 200+gr bullet , and it that case you need a bigger gun

Need a bigger gun? Why? I shoot 220 gr. bullets in my 30.06 whenever I feel like it. They are my go to black bear loads. The bullet speed isn't that much slower and there's plenty of energy downrange for penetration. I would choose a 165 gr. bullet for target shooting or taking a deer at 300 yards but there are other reasons to own a 30.06 and use heavy bullets. Knocking down unfriendly black bears at shorter ranges is a very good example. I've never had to shoot a bear but they have threatened me in my yard many, many times especially when I'm cooking on the grill. It drives them nuts so they try to scare me off. It doesn't work. I'm loaded for bear one way or another.

rondog
January 22, 2014, 01:24 AM
If you've ever worn an American flag patch or lapel pin, then you must buy a .30-06. And a 1911!

It is written!

Somewhere....

So I've heard.....

reddrumtoo
January 22, 2014, 01:36 AM
Back in the 60's I bought a remington 700 ADL w/ checkered aluminum buttplate , everytime I fired it I got remington stamped into my shoulder . I wised up & put a pachmayr recoil pad on it . When I would fire it I got pachmayr stamped into my shoulder . After much load development & glass bedding the action , I got that puppy to shoot 1 1/2 MOA . I got rid of it , got a 243 for my heavy rifle & have killed elk & everything below that w/ one shot kills . I've never lost a game animal . It's bullet placement that is key. If I ever have the chance at a bear I'll put one in his ear & he'll make a nice rug.

1911 guy
January 22, 2014, 03:57 AM
No, you're not missing out. There are many cartridges that do everything a .30-06 will do.

Having said that, the attraction of an "-06 is that it does many things well. Given the right load, you can comfortable take just about anything on the North American continent with it.

If you want one, save your shekels and buy one. If not, so be it. It is a very versatile cartridge, but there is a great possibility that it holds no particular use for you.

Gtscotty
January 22, 2014, 07:03 AM
there is a big jump from a 30-06 to a 300win mag , there is almost no jump from a 308win to a 30-06 unless you go to a 200+gr bullet , and it that case you need a bigger gun

An often repeated fallacy.

Top loads from Hogdon's load data (sticking with standard construction bullets):

165gr bullets

.308: 2839 fps
30-06: 2972 fps
300 WM: 3144 fps

Velocity gain going from .308 to 30-06: 133 fps (4.7%)
Velocity gain going from 30-06 to 300 WM: 172 fps (5.8%)

180 gr bullets

.308: 2683 fps
30-06: 2840 fps
300 WM: 3042 fps

Velocity gain going from .308 to 30-06: 157 fps (5.9%)
Velocity gain going from 30-06 to 300 WM: 202 fps (7.1%)

The difference between .308 and 30-06 is only slightly less than the difference between 30-06 and 300 WM, hardly what one could call "almost no jump" versus "a big jump".

For a bolt action hunting rifle, the only compelling reason I've ever seen to choose the .308 over the 30-06 is lower recoil, which is to be expected in a less powerful round. Rifle weight? Both cartridges can be had in rifles that are light enough to be uncomfortable to shoot. Bolt throw? I've never felt particularly strained by the extra .5" of bolt throw on a long action. If you don't reload, i guess cost could be a minor factor, but if you do, or if you practice with the load you plan to hunt with, it's a wash.

If you don't think you need the extra power between a .308 and a 30-06, that is fine, but that doesn't mean it isn't there.

To the OP, if you want a 30-06, go ahead and get one, it's certainly one of the most versatile calibers out there.

USSR
January 22, 2014, 07:36 AM
I'm somewhat surprised to find the .308 brought into this thread about whether to get a .30-06 or not. As previously stated, once the bullet weight becomes 180 grains or more, the similarities between the two cartridges disappear. I have done extensive load development for LR shooting with both cartridges using the 190SMK, and have found an honest 200fps difference with the two.

.308: 190SMK, 47.0gr N550 - 2700fps
.30-06: 190SMK, 60.7gr RL22 - 2900fps
.300WM Fed. Gold Medal Match: 190SMK - 2900fps

26" barrels were used in both cases.

Don

d2wing
January 22, 2014, 10:27 AM
Yes but how can you argue that the .308 is better unless you make stuff up. After all it is the tradition of gun writers and lots of posters. Why fight mythology with facts? Don't start with the 45-70 easily surpassed in listed factory loads by 12 gauge sabot slugs.

Skyshot
January 22, 2014, 10:46 AM
It's an American icon.

Mike1234567
January 22, 2014, 11:10 AM
I'm not an expert but I chose .30-06 over .308 Win due to greater flexibility. In my geographic area I could easily get by with just four long-arms: .30-06, .223 Rem, a "good" .22 cal pellet gun and a 12ga. I could replace the '06 with a .308 but why other than being able to shoot NATO ammo? There's a fairly large gap between a .22 pellet gun and .223 Rem but, again, in my area there's nothing in the middle that needs anything else. Frankly, (SHOCK) I don't need a .22LR.

Temp430
January 22, 2014, 11:18 AM
Unless you're under 12 and/or 100 lbs. a 243 Win seems a little light for those big Maine whitetail.

Tirod
January 22, 2014, 11:45 AM
Shot placement is critical with any bullet. Soldiers have been hit with .50 cal and fought on.

Owing a gun in .30-06 means you can still buy ammo off the shelf during a panic, when .308 has dried up in 24 hours. I've seen that twice now.

The next panic is predicted for the fall of 2016, just in time for deer season. Either load up now or not, but having an alternate caliber for bad times is nice. While some shooters might consider it a bit Elmer F. to own, the game doesn't care, and you get to shoot.

CoalTrain49
January 22, 2014, 12:17 PM
Shot placement is critical with any bullet. Soldiers have been hit with .50 cal and fought on.

Owing a gun in .30-06 means you can still buy ammo off the shelf during a panic, when .308 has dried up in 24 hours. I've seen that twice now.

The next panic is predicted for the fall of 2016, just in time for deer season. Either load up now or not, but having an alternate caliber for bad times is nice. While some shooters might consider it a bit Elmer F. to own, the game doesn't care, and you get to shoot.

Let me figure this out. Isn't that about the same time as the next pres. election?
One 30 cal. is enough. Spend your money on ammo. Forget about more guns.

back40
January 22, 2014, 12:32 PM
Let me figure this out. Isn't that about the same time as the next pres. election?
One 30 cal. is enough. Spend your money on ammo. Forget about more guns.
The op doesn't yet have a .30 cal, and the '06 gives you options that the .308 doesn't.

eastbank
January 22, 2014, 12:33 PM
50 miles off a paved road in botswana S.A.,i saw 30-06 with 180gr SP. shells for sale they also had 303 british fmj ammo. i don,t know if it was illeagle to sale them or not and as we had a .375H&H and a 7mm mag we didn,t need them. eastbank.

Takem406
January 22, 2014, 12:34 PM
I have a 22-250, 243 and a 308.
The first two are varmint and deer rifles and the 308 is my elk, windy day deer rifle.
I prefer the 308 over the 06 for the short action and the accuracy. Not much different between the two.
But a 30 caliber is nice to have for the better BOC for shooting in the wind and for longer shots. But really the 243 is amazing. Especially if your only deer hunting. And if your shots are under 300 you don't "need" a bigger gun. But boy that 308 smashes deer!

savanahsdad
January 22, 2014, 01:26 PM
I'm somewhat surprised to find the .308 brought into this thread about whether to get a .30-06 or not. As previously stated, once the bullet weight becomes 180 grains or more, the similarities between the two cartridges disappear. I have done extensive load development for LR shooting with both cartridges using the 190SMK, and have found an honest 200fps difference with the two.

.308: 190SMK, 47.0gr N550 - 2700fps
.30-06: 190SMK, 60.7gr RL22 - 2900fps
.300WM Fed. Gold Medal Match: 190SMK - 2900fps

26" barrels were used in both cases.

Don
LOL..... we could play this game all day :) I just looked up 300win mag. 180gr bullets with IMR4831 from 60rg to 80gr will get you 2599fps to 3253fps seems your right in the middle with your 300WM ,

anyway, there is enough ammo out there and load data out there to make any of the three look like it is the best , but the 30-06 fits in the middle most of the time , if the OP is looking for that middle gun , then go for it , the 30-06 has been killing things for over 100 years , but for me I like the handy, lite , less recoil of the 308win and the bigger bang ,longer range of my 7mmWSM


to the OP you NEED a 270win ! ( yep I opened another can of worms :) )

mdauben
January 22, 2014, 01:55 PM
I don't need a 30.06, but everything I've heard says this is a legendary caliber that just needs to be part of a collection.
If you are putting together a "collection" of representative american hunting rifles, then yes you should have a .30-06 as its a classic cartridge with wide availability and flexibility. If you want one gun that can be used for any north american big game, you should have a .30-06 as its probably the most recommended "do it all" cartridge.

If you are just worried about covering your stated needs for causal range shooting and white tail deer hunting then you don't really need one as there are other choices that do those particular tasks better.

PJSprog
January 22, 2014, 01:57 PM
The .30-'06 is arguably the most versatile rifle cartridge in North America. You should definitely own at least one rifle for it ... nah, make that two; one to hunt and one military (love my '03 Springfield).

GBExpat
January 22, 2014, 02:12 PM
Some wags may even suggest that God carries a .30-06 ... except, o'course, when He is carrying a .30-30. ;)

mainecoon
January 22, 2014, 02:14 PM
Thanks everyone for the advice. I guess I definitely need one ;). Now just need to join the moose permit lottery.

Robert101
January 22, 2014, 02:25 PM
Yes, you do need to join the .30 caliber club.

Ks5shooter
January 22, 2014, 03:55 PM
THIS^^^^^^^^^^:):):):):):):):):):)

MJ
January 22, 2014, 04:09 PM
You can do just about anything with a good 30-06 from 25 yards to 1000 yards.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/montereyjack/a2da12c1.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/montereyjack/media/a2da12c1.jpg.html)

savanahsdad
January 22, 2014, 04:15 PM
^^^ nice weapon ya got there MJ.

powder
January 22, 2014, 04:34 PM
Currently I've got a 22-250 for targets and a .243 for deer. I don't need a 30.06, but everything I've heard says this is a legendary caliber that just needs to be part of a collection. Is it worth looking for some 30.06-worthy animal to shoot to justify the purchase?
No.

DRYHUMOR
January 22, 2014, 07:02 PM
I hadn't had an '06 in 24 years... then last year I came across a basically new M70 barreled action that was too good to pass up. :cool:

The way I have it shooting; it's a keeper. ;)

fragout
January 22, 2014, 07:20 PM
Since this is about a “want”, and not about any foreseen “need”, then 30-06 is a great choice, and as good as any other. Plenty of rifles too choose from with this cartridge in mind.
Not sure who brought up 308, but there are even more rifles chambered for this cartridge compared to 30-06. If you were to combine them, then the sky’s the limit when you go to make a choice, and especially if you want to “justify” buying it for use as a big game hunting tool.

I’m not a ballistics expert, but FWIW……..I ended up with the following average muzzle velocities (10 shots each thru same chronograph on the same day) between 308 and 30-06. ( Both rifles are Rossi’s and sport the same bbl lengths…….. so the comparison should give you a decent look at the differences between the two.
The first comparison uses the 165gr Federal sierra Game King BTSP with a BC of .405. (both cartridges) (Note: I ran the average numbers thru a ballistic program to calculate the rest, and to include elevation, and atmospherics on this particular day.)

Note: These are factory loads.

MV:
30-06: 2770fps
308 : 2680fps
Difference = 90fps

100 yards:
30-06: 2541fps w/ 2365 ft/lbs of energy
308: 2457fps w/ 2211 ft/lbs of energy
Difference = 84fps and 154 ft/lbs of energy

300 yards:
30-06: 2117fps w/ 1642 ft/lbs of energy
308: 2044fps w/ 1530 ft/lbs of energy
Difference = 73fps and 112 ft/lbs of energy

Not much of a difference when comparing both. Short action vs long, and the difference in felt recoil amounts to personal preference IMO. Everyone seems to have thier favorite, and thats a good thing I suppose. If you look at both, then your options really open up.

I’ll follow up with a 30-06 220gr load vs a 308 168 gr load later.

Bird Dog II
January 22, 2014, 07:21 PM
God no! Don't get one. If you do, you'll want another, and then a 3rd:-)

The above comparison is valid. However, if you move up to 190s, 200s, 220s, the 06 clearly out slugs the short .308. I have a .308 and love it, but it ain't no 06 when you move up to heavies.

Plus, I promise you, you can reach and exceed 2800 fps with 165gr bullets in the .30-06.

fragout
January 22, 2014, 07:32 PM
Here are the numbers thru the same Rossi 30-06 rifle I used in the above post. Same chronograph. (Factory loads)

30-06 = 220gr Federal Sierra Pro-Hunter soft point round nose.

MV:
2400fps

100 yards:
2114fps w/ 2183 ft/lbs of energy

150 yards:
1979 fps w/ 1913ft/lbs of energy

200 yards:
1850fps w/ 1672 ft/lbs of energy

Just a reminder that these are factory loads thru a specific rifle. I'm sure one can reload and get faster speeds, but that doesn't mean they will automatically shoot well thru every given rifle. (308 as well as 30-06).


Just for giggles, here is what I put thru the Rossi chambered in 308 on the same day.......

165gr Federal Barnes Triple Shock X

MV:
2650 fps

100 yards:
2415fps w/ 2136 ft/lbs of energy

150 yards:
2301fps w/ 1931 ft/lbs of energy

200 yards:
2191fps w/ 1758 ft/lbs of energy

Note: BC for the above 30-06 bullet is .294
BC for the above 308 bullet is .38

Note: I have quite a few different factory loads thru both of the rifles above, and have taken notes on all of them.

If someone is interested in specifics, feel free to ask, and I'll post my findings on said load if I have put it thru the paces before.

I like both cartridges, so I say the OP would have even more options concerning a rifle by looking at both. (IE...... Instead of looking at it as 1 vs the other, look at it as an addition when the time comes to pick the rifle.)

I also firmly believe that any of the 4 loads I posted above will kill anything living in Maine, provided that the shooter does his part.

Gtscotty
January 22, 2014, 07:36 PM
Reach and exceed is correct, my hunting load for my 30-06 X-bolt is a 165 gr SGK at 2920 fps.... wicked is the best word to describe it. I loaded 180 gr Nosler Partitions up above 2800 fps, but couldn't find the accuracy I wanted, so I backed it down to the mid 2700's.

Edit: fragout, I think the fact that they are factory loads is the kicker, the '06 is kind of hobbled by it's extensive history when it comes to factory loads (read: usually limited pressure wise). Once you crack the load book and get to work, it becomes quite apparent that there is some potential (and capacity) in the case that is generally untapped in factory loadings.

The 6.5x55 addicts preach it all the time, but these older cartridges aren't always best judged by their factory loadings.

back40
January 22, 2014, 08:05 PM
with reloading,the 30-06 will clearly outshine the .308. with heavier bullets 30-06 offers an option that .308 simply cannot provide. i've read many times of guys safely loading 30-06 to factory .300 winmag levels.

as for the action, i don't get where all the bellyaching comes from. it's a mere 1/2" more. i hear all the time about how the .308 is a "light and handy" rifle, as if the 30-06 is somehow an unbearable pig at a whole 1/2" more overall length and maybe 6 ounces more. i've owned both calibers in the exact same gun, and i can tell you it didn't make a difference.

.308 may have a slight edge with regards to accuracy, but at normal hunting ranges it won't make a bit of difference. it gets the nod when we're talking match grade ammo and long ranges far beyond normal hunting situations. the shooter's skills will be far more important than the slight accuracy difference between the two.

recoil is subjective, and load dependent, and although i can tell my 30-06 has the faintest bit more, it certainly isn't enough to matter, especially when hunting.

i own both calibers and love them both, but the OP asked about 30-06 for hunting, which in my mind is the better choice. it's a classic that offers great versatility.

SlamFire1
January 22, 2014, 08:05 PM
The 30-06 is a great cartridge. There is not much it can't do. I still shoot this 30-06 target rifle, kicks more than a 308 but sometimes you still have to bring out the old smokepoles.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Rifles%20various/DSCF2878ColumbianMauser.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/SlamFire/media/Rifles%20various/DSCF2878ColumbianMauser.jpg.html)

fragout
January 22, 2014, 08:19 PM
Edit: fragout, I think the fact that they are factory loads is the kicker, the '06 is kind of hobbled by it's extensive history when it comes to factory loads (read: usually limited pressure wise). Once you crack the load book and get to work, it becomes quite apparent that there is some potential (and capacity) in the case that is generally untapped in factory loadings.
========================================================================================
I agree with you Gtscotty.

However you slice it, 30-06 uses the same bullets and has a longer case, so the potential is there, provided that the specific rifle likes a load such as you described.

Is the difference enough to matter when it comes to hunting critters found in Maine? I don't believe that it is, but it's just my opinion.

Will every "mom and pop" store sell anything other than factory fodder?
Most likely anywhweres is goona be factory stuff. ( Remington and Federal seem to be the 2 factory ammo "everywhere" leaders of the pack.)

With that said, 308 factory made match ammo is much more common around here vs a 30-06 equivalent. ( In case the OP sticks with his 243 chambered rifle for a hunting tool, and makes his 30cal rifle into something else.)

BigBore44
January 22, 2014, 08:40 PM
110-220 grn bullets. One of, if not the, most popular hunting cartridge of all times. Still a proven performer for almost all big game on the planet. Readily available almost everywhere. One of the only cartridges always available during the panic.

My advice? Don't get one. Horrible cartridge. Completely worthless. No options if you're a reloader. Way underpowered. Super heavy recoil. No one makes rifles in that chambering anymore.

dvdcrr
January 22, 2014, 09:22 PM
I'm not missing a 30-06. I've got a 270wsm that will take down anything a 30-06 will.

savanahsdad
January 22, 2014, 09:42 PM
I'm not missing a 30-06. I've got a 270wsm that will take down anything a 30-06 will.
a 270WSM is just over kill... you should just drop that over sized canon off at my house and go get a 30-06 :)



it would go good with my 7mmWSM :)



.

Steel Horse Rider
January 22, 2014, 09:46 PM
I believe this road is so high that everyone's heads are swelling. What is wrong about owning and enjoying a multitude of cartridges and rifles? It does not have to be that my stick is bigger than your stick......... unless you are emotionally prepubescent.

fragout
January 22, 2014, 10:03 PM
I received a request from a fellow member here, (who hails from the northeastern part of the U.S.) and he asked me if I had put any Remington 150gr Core-Lokt PSP's (BC = .315) thru both of my rifles posted above.

The above factory loads are common where he is from, and they are both abundant around my neck of the woods as well.

When I told him that I had ran both cartridges thru both rifles on the same day/under same conditions, he asked that I post it here for all to utilize for information...as well as the OP.

Here are the average velocities concerning my rifles chambered in 30-06 and 308 using the above mentioned factory 150gr load from Remington.

30-06:
MV = 2900fps
100 yards: 2607fps w/ 2263 ft/lbs of energy.
150 yards: 2468fps w/ 2028 ft/lbs
200 yards: 2333fps w/ 1813 ft/lbs
300 yards: 2076fps w/ 1435 ft/lbs

308:
MV= 2810fps
100 yards: 2523fps w/ 2120 ft/lbs of energy.
150 yards: 2387fps w/ 1900 ft/lbs
200 yards: 2255fps w/ 1695 ft/lbs
300 yards: 2002fps w/ 1335 ft/lbs

back40
January 22, 2014, 10:18 PM
fragout, how do the twist rates on those rifle compare?

fragout
January 22, 2014, 10:18 PM
I believe this road is so high that everyone's heads are swelling. What is wrong about owning and enjoying a multitude of cartridges and rifles? It does not have to be that my stick is bigger than your stick......... unless you are emotionally prepubescent.
=====================================================================

LOL.

As soon as Ruger gets around to building a complete upper chambered in 260 Remington and/or 243 for my SR762, then I'll be right there enjoying them multitudes.:)

If I had to sell off every long gun I own and only keep one, then the rifle would most defiantly be one of the 3 pictured below.

fragout
January 22, 2014, 10:24 PM
back40.

Both are 1:10 to my knowledge.

EDIT: As you were. The 308 tube is 1:12

Gtscotty
January 22, 2014, 10:44 PM
It does not have to be that my stick is bigger than your stick.........

Whoa, whoa, whoa........whoa, you're not suggesting that there's some "My caliber's better than yours" stick waiving going on in a gun forum, are you? Preposterous...

USSR
January 23, 2014, 08:44 AM
The 30-06 is a great cartridge. There is not much it can't do. I still shoot this 30-06 target rifle, kicks more than a 308 but sometimes you still have to bring out the old smokepoles.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Rifles%20various/DSCF2878ColumbianMauser.jpg

Couldn't agree more with you, SlamFire.

Don

http://ussr.clarityconnect.com/Win70marksman1.jpg

Nom de Forum
January 23, 2014, 09:20 AM
Yes, you should get a .30-06. None us can ever know what the future has in mind for us. If personal financial hardship should occur you have a hunting insurance policy. After you have sold all your other hunting rifles to pay the bills, your .30-06 insures you can still do everything very well that those other rifles did for you. It is not just a cliche to say, if you are only going to own one, the ought-six is The One.

Agsalaska
January 23, 2014, 10:54 AM
It didnt take long to get to 4 pages on this one.

I hunted Texas White Tail for years with a .243. Then a few years ago I got a 6.5Swede. I even play around with a 222. mag. But the farm guns(family of ranchers) have always been 30-06 and 30-30. Pretty much every hog and coyote that could be shot on the ranch has been shot by one of those two guns. I have had problems with the .243 recently and 6.5x55 is worth too much to risk hunting with so this year I decided to get a new rifle that I was willing to beat around. I found a 760 in 30-06 in about 90% condition at a pawn shop. It is a killer. The versatility is unmatched IMHO. I have lots of guns I play around with, but the one I take for killing is the 30-06.

Cocked & Locked
January 23, 2014, 11:38 AM
I've owned in the past .243, 45-70, .300 win. mag. I currently have .30-30, 30-40 Krag, .44 mag, .270, .308, ,.35 Whelen, but I like my .30-06 rifles the best!

http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2169/3082611/17383006/407814679.jpg

http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2169/3082611/17383006/400977765.jpg

http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2169/3082611/17383006/400967693.jpg

jmr40
January 23, 2014, 12:38 PM
For the record I started with a 30-06, used it exclusively for about 40 years and have no complaints. I have several 30-06 rifles that I like too much to get rid of, but I rarely use the old round anymore.

Didn't read the whole thread and maybe others touched on this but the 30-06 is the Jack of all trades, but the master of none. If someone truly wants ONE, and ONLY ONE rifle for big game hunting in North America it is the ONE rifle to buy. That was my rational back in the early 1970's, and I feel I made a good choice at the time.

But if a fellow wants to own 2-3 rifles in different chamberings you can do a little better by going slightly bigger and smaller.

Another thing that has changed in the last 40 years is bullet technology. With todays better bullets there is darn little that a 243 won't kill that a 30-06 used to be needed for. In the 1970's 30-06 was considered middle of the road. Today it is a more powerful round than 90% of American hunters will ever need. And if they NEED something bigger than 7-08 or 308 etc., they really need something a LOT bigger.

As much as I like the round, If advising young hunters today I'd not suggest they buy one.

d2wing
January 23, 2014, 01:11 PM
I do agree that when you compare 150 gr. factory loads there is little difference. The real difference shows up useing dangerous game loads 180 grains and up and hand loads that use the extra potential of the 30-06. Factory pressure specs are much lower for the 30-06 as already noted. A 30-06 with proper loads and bullets will stay supersonic further and have longer range. A moot point to most but I gotta love the cartridge that means so much to our history. It did win both WWl and WWll and stopped the commie in Korea.
I actually deeply appreciate the .308/7.62 because I used it in combat and find no fault with it. It is also a wonderful cartridge and deserves respect. Just don't bad mouth one because you like the other. The 08 is milder and more accurate and nearly as powerful. But the 06 is the king and will do things the 08 won't.
And yes there may be better cartridges but some purposes. But for a do it all, There is only one. Followed closely by it's brother.

Mike1234567
January 23, 2014, 01:21 PM
For the record I started with a 30-06, used it exclusively for about 40 years and have no complaints. I have several 30-06 rifles that I like too much to get rid of, but I rarely use the old round anymore.

Didn't read the whole thread and maybe others touched on this but the 30-06 is the Jack of all trades, but the master of none. If someone truly wants ONE, and ONLY ONE rifle for big game hunting in North America it is the ONE rifle to buy. That was my rational back in the early 1970's, and I feel I made a good choice at the time.

But if a fellow wants to own 2-3 rifles in different chamberings you can do a little better by going slightly bigger and smaller.

Another thing that has changed in the last 40 years is bullet technology. With todays better bullets there is darn little that a 243 won't kill that a 30-06 used to be needed for. In the 1970's 30-06 was considered middle of the road. Today it is a more powerful round than 90% of American hunters will ever need. And if they NEED something bigger than 7-08 or 308 etc., they really need something a LOT bigger.

As much as I like the round, If advising young hunters today I'd not suggest they buy one.
THREE rifles? That's easy for me... .223Rem/5.56NATO, .308Win/7.62NATO and .375H&H... PLUS a high-powered .22 caliber pellet rifle.

CraigC
January 23, 2014, 01:23 PM
Am I missing something without a 30.06?
No, it's overrated. As stated, it's a jack of all trades and a master of none. There are better deer cartridges that fit into lighter, smaller rifles with less recoil. There are far better choices for larger game. For game that bites back, it shouldn't even be considered.

BigBore44
January 23, 2014, 03:23 PM
I'm sorry CraigC,
But the Alaskan Wildlife Department would disagree with you. In this study http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/gtr152.pdf the 30-06 was one of the top performers against brown bears. And a 30-06 isn't adequate for black bear? It won't lay the smack down on cats? Tell us, what is bare minimum for bear or cougar if the 30-06 shouldn't even be considered?

j1
January 23, 2014, 03:53 PM
Yes. The finest cartridge ever created for most north american big game hunting.

BigBore44
January 23, 2014, 03:58 PM
j1,
As an all around I certainly can't disagree.

Mike1234567
January 23, 2014, 03:59 PM
So... .30-06 is the "balancing act" for most NA game? :)

d2wing
January 23, 2014, 08:45 PM
I retread that report on bear defense. It concludes with only four recommended Brown bear loads. One was the 30-06 220 grain PSP. If that doesn't settle it There is no hope of a rational choice.

Cocked & Locked
January 23, 2014, 09:06 PM
Yes...lots of good info in that link. 45-70, 300 magnums, 7mm magnums, along with many others...nah, not in the top 4 for big bears.

I also found it interesting about shortened barrels, carry method, etc., etc...all around good read in that link.

BigBore44
January 23, 2014, 10:32 PM
Just look at everything the '06 HAS and IS STILL taking since its inception. Answer: Every big game animal in NA. And many in Africa. It's just that versatile of a cartridge. There is no magical "One for All" cartridge. But if there were, the 30-06 would be a heavily favored contender for that title.

back40
January 23, 2014, 10:43 PM
No, it's overrated

overrated? really? :rolleyes: i think you're the first person that i've ever heard call it that. not your personal choice? fine. not the best cartridge for your particular situation? so be it. but overrated? i think not, and history would disagree with you as well.

Bird Dog II
January 23, 2014, 11:37 PM
Didn't read the whole thread and maybe others touched on this but the 30-06 is the Jack of all trades, but the master of none.

I have to disagree with that statement. I think the .30-06 is absolutely the master for killing deer and similar game. I've owned three and currently own two. I've also owned a 7-08, .308, 7mm WSM, .270, .350 Rem Mag and .30-30. All will get the job done, but the .30-06 does it best all things considered. In central MO where I live, you can hunt in areas where 40 yards is a long shot, or in bottom fields where you can see forever. The .30-06 with a good low variable scope (2x7 or 3x9) is the best tool you can have. I have had to track deer for miles that have been shot with 7 Mags, .257 Weatherbys, .25-06s and .270s. Some of these were good shots where the bullet didn't expand much, the .257 was a splash wound. Never had to track one anchored with the 06. I've taken over 40 deer with the 06 and never lost one. Heck, never had one go more than a few yards! My best friend dropped an antelope with his at 490 yards. Another friend of mine used his with 220s on an angry Alaskan Coastal Bear. More North American Elk have been killed with it since its inception than all other rifle rounds combined. For me, with handloaded 165s, it shines in the woods or the plains. Period!

LRShooting
January 23, 2014, 11:53 PM
Pish Posh. I don't get the hype over 30-06. I understand its a great cartridge, but I think it can sometimes be overrated. There are better alternatives IMHO. Now, I realize there are some extremely die hard 30-06 fans including a couple of my friends, so don't take offense to that previous statement. But really, if you have just one gun, then a 30-06 probably is the way to go depending on intended use. If you have several guns, then a better idea is probably a more varmit based round like 223 or something, a economic deer hunting round like a 308, and maybe a more powerful gun for bigger game or longer distances like a 300 win mag or 338 lapua if you wanna spend some money and knock things over. Its all really just a matter of a opinion though. I suppose itll be unpatriotic to not have a .308 in a few years, along with a 223.

BigBore44
January 24, 2014, 12:22 AM
308 is more "economic" than a 30-06? I would love to see the facts behind that statement. Seeing as how the AR-10 shooters bought all the .308 during the panic. '06 was still available the whole time here. Walmart, Academy, Bass Pro all had 30-06 ammo. 308, 223, 7.62x39, gone.

And why if you had to choose just one, and so many say that one would be the '06, would you not own one? Where exactly are the flaws with the '06? It's not performance. It's been doing that well for 100 years on everything from deer to moose. It's not price. It's not availability. It's not reloading options or capabilities. It's not inherit accuracy issues.

The issue with the 30-06 is 2 things:
1. It's not new.
2. It doesn't have "Magnum" beside it's name.

You don't have to say its the greatest cartridge ever produced. But to deny its abilities is borderline absurd.

Nom de Forum
January 24, 2014, 12:41 AM
308 is more "economic" than a 30-06? I would love to see the facts behind that statement. Seeing as how the AR-10 shooters bought all the .308 during the panic. '06 was still available the whole time here. Walmart, Academy, Bass Pro all had 30-06 ammo. 308, 223, 7.62x39, gone.

And why if you had to choose just one, and so many say that one would be the '06, would you not own one? Where exactly are the flaws with the '06? It's not performance. It's been doing that well for 100 years on everything from deer to moose. It's not price. It's not availability. It's not reloading options or capabilities. It's not inherit accuracy issues.

The issue with the 30-06 is 2 things:
1. It's not new.
2. It doesn't have "Magnum" beside it's name.

You don't have to say its the greatest cartridge ever produced. But to deny its abilities is borderline absurd.

I agree with you.

Perhaps we all should consider it "new". With the components we have today we have turned an outstandingly good cartridge from 1906 in to something even better. I'll bet we could fix the "issues" the .30-06 has by getting an ammunition company to bring out some cases with a headstamp change. They could market it as 7.62 Express Magnum Ultra that can be fired in "modern" rifles chambered in .30-06. The kids would love it. Who wouldn't want to shoot 7.62 EMU?

The .30-06 overated? Balderdash!

savanahsdad
January 24, 2014, 12:59 AM
from link in post #85


first off that joke of a report was done by the USDA forest services ,not the Alaskan Wildlife Department , next if you would read it and see how they did there scoring , you would see it is more about bullet choice than it is about caliber or cartridge , I guess to the clowns that did that report expansion means more than penetration , 3X is good expansion 5X not so good as it slows or stops penetration , but to them it is better , weight retention is good anything over 65% is great if you get about 4X on expansion but that comes down to the bullet not the caliber . lets be real the 30-06 is a great round but they list it above all 300mags and forgot to list a 300H&H ? really ? they also list the 444marlin above all 300mags and a 308win is better that a 8mmRem Mag , , like I said that report is a bad joke ! I wouldn't trust any report that list a 357mag as being better for bear than a 41mag, yep ,, look at the bottom of that report under handguns , 357mag is better than a 41mag , it's right there . so it too must be true !

also Note: this report was done in March of 1983 and barrels ran from 18.5 to 26" again what a joke ! it really only shows what crappie bullets the found 31 years ago

stiab
January 24, 2014, 01:05 AM
Thanks BigBore, that is an interesting and informative link. It appears that the .30-06/220 is appropriate for critters that bite back!

BigBore44
January 24, 2014, 01:25 AM
Can't take credit for that link at all. It was posted by another member on another thread. But it does show the abilities of bullets even 31 years ago. Imagine what the '06 could do today with new custom loads. Would it be my first choice in brown bear territory? Probably not my first choice since I own a 1895 45-70 and I reload. But would/should I feel "under gunned" with my '06 in Alaska? Not a bit. Animals bite back in Oklahoma also. 500-600lb black bears aren't that uncommon. Neither are big cats. And I have personally seen a 407 lb wild boar with 5 1/2" cutters (it killed 2 of my friend's chase dogs and a catch dog). So we have critters here that "bite back".

The 7.62 EMU huh? Lol. Who knows. It might catch on.

savanahsdad
January 24, 2014, 01:58 AM
Can't take credit for that link at all. It was posted by another member on another thread. But it does show the abilities of bullets even 31 years ago. Imagine what the '06 could do today with new custom loads. Would it be my first choice in brown bear territory? Probably not my first choice since I own a 1895 45-70 and I reload. But would/should I feel "under gunned" with my '06 in Alaska? Not a bit. Animals bite back in Oklahoma also. 500-600lb black bears aren't that uncommon. Neither are big cats. And I have personally seen a 407 lb wild boar with 5 1/2" cutters (it killed 2 of my friend's chase dogs and a catch dog). So we have critters here that "bite back".

The 7.62 EMU huh? Lol. Who knows. It might catch on.
45-70 for bear !!!!!! ? that report says you should have a 444marlin not a 45-70 :) however they do list a 44mag over a 300WM 180gr , hummmm I have five 44MAG"s I guess I don't need a 300WM and they only list a 44mag with a 7.5" barrel my shortest is 10.5 and 3 are rifles , (big grin) anyhow I agree ,I'd take the 45-70 but we would get beat up on that other thread for saying that didn't someone say "the 45-70 is pointless " lol

Eb1
January 24, 2014, 09:47 AM
Seeing as I watched my first few episodes of Yukon Men last night. Seems the AR 15 was the choice of the locals. And the .30-06 was the backup bolt rifle.

Mike1234567
January 24, 2014, 09:49 AM
I wonder if the quicker follow-up and increased magazine capacity of the .458 SOCOM, with 400-600gr bullets, makes it a better bear rifle than the .45-70.

Nom de Forum
January 24, 2014, 10:31 AM
45-70 for bear !!!!!! ? that report says you should have a 444marlin not a 45-70 :) however they do list a 44mag over a 300WM 180gr , hummmm I have five 44MAG"s I guess I don't need a 300WM and they only list a 44mag with a 7.5" barrel my shortest is 10.5 and 3 are rifles , (big grin) anyhow I agree ,I'd take the 45-70 but we would get beat up on that other thread for saying that didn't someone say "the 45-70 is pointless " lol

Clearly "The Report" was a somewhat flawed document from inception. It is not a report that rigorous adherence to the scientific method was used to prepare. It certainly had some value when published and retains some today; so use that and discard the rest. In comparison to all the other pseudo-scientific nonsense about stopping/knock-down power peddled by many of the great names in shooting over the last 100 years it is not that bad. The bottom line is a bullet of strong enough construction, with high sectional density, from a medium caliber rifle fired accurately is known to get the job done. The .30-06 has probably demonstrated this more times than any other rifle.

stiab
January 24, 2014, 10:36 AM
...they do list a 44mag over a 300WM 180gr...I guess I don't need a 300WM...
Actually, they both were rated at the very bottom of the list as poor performers for the purposes of this study, which had a very narrow and specific objective. Keep in mind the heading of the table is Short-range Ballistic Performance and the subject is protection from bears, not the general hunting of big game.

Here's a quote from the study about why the .300 Win Mag did not fair well at near point blank range:

"These high velocities with moderately heavy bullets resulted in striking energies that exceed the design level of the bullets, especially the heavier ones...Fragmentation was prevalent for these bullets, and weight losses were 60 percent or more. The 180-gr bullet in the .300 Winchester also had poor penetration and substantial weight loss, as well as relatively poor expansion, all of which contributed to its last place ranking."

CraigC
January 24, 2014, 10:40 AM
In this study http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/gtr152.pdf the 30-06 was one of the top performers against brown bears.
A useless, terribly outdated and limited test.....at best.

I never said it wouldn't do what folks believe it does. It just doesn't excel at anything except being popular. If all you want is one rifle, then it will do a good job at most things. However, most of us are not one rifle types and given a selection of at least three or four rifles, none need be a .30/06 to excel at their respective purposes. Smaller cartridges make better deer and medium game rifles and larger cartridges make better large game rifles. If you "need" 220gr loads, you probably need more rifle. It's too in-between, too much and not enough. Which is fine if you just want to walk into Walmart once in your life and walk out with a deer rifle. Just too plain vanilla for my tastes.

Cocked & Locked
January 24, 2014, 10:59 AM
Just too plain vanilla for my tastes.

But Vanilla is such a popular flavor...liked by most and available many places. Most youngster like exotic flavors for some reason .:D

Nom de Forum
January 24, 2014, 10:59 AM
A useless, terribly outdated and limited test.....at best.

I never said it wouldn't do what folks believe it does. It just doesn't excel at anything except being popular. If all you want is one rifle, then it will do a good job at most things. However, most of us are not one rifle types and given a selection of at least three or four rifles, none need be a .30/06 to excel at their respective purposes. Smaller cartridges make better deer and medium game rifles and larger cartridges make better large game rifles. If you "need" 220gr loads, you probably need more rifle. It's too in-between, too much and not enough. Which is fine if you just want to walk into Walmart once in your life and walk out with a deer rifle. Just too plain vanilla for my tastes.

Completely understandable and rational conclusion for a multi-rifle owning hunter. Since you already own several rifles the addition of a .30-06 is just relatively inexpensive icing on the cake and that "Hunting Insurance Policy" I mentioned earlier. You may even find yourself wondering why you are spending so much time with the care and feeding of all those other rifles that are more specialized.

Nom de Forum
January 24, 2014, 11:05 AM
But Vanilla is such a popular flavor...liked by most and available many places. :D

Vanilla is also the most versatile flavor. It is much easier to tinker with vanilla ice cream to create an acceptable substitute for chocolate or strawberry ice cream than the other way around.:D

Nom de Forum
January 24, 2014, 11:11 AM
Seeing as I watched my first few episodes of Yukon Men last night. Seems the AR 15 was the choice of the locals. And the .30-06 was the backup bolt rifle.

The operative phrase being "the .30-06 was the backup bolt rifle". What if you have no backup or time for backup? I want to be the backup guy, you can be the AR15 guy. I also want to be the guy who can run and climb trees faster.

BigBore44
January 24, 2014, 11:11 AM
This thread was about the OP missing something without the '06. The answer is yes. He's missing a great cartridge from a historical, performance, availability, price, reloading potential, standpoint.

Is that study outdated? I'd say yes. We have come a long ways in 31 years. Would the 30-06 still be on the list given all the latest technology in bullet design? Better yet, would the "Forresty Department", contradict themselves and say the '06 was no longer acceptable in brown bear defense? Unless I've missed something, Brownies haven't spent the last 30+ years developing body armor technology. So the answer would be no.

But I'm still waiting to read what the bare minimum cartridge is for animals that bite back if the 30-06 shouldn't even be considered.

BigBore44
January 24, 2014, 11:13 AM
And it's kinda funny. Vanilla IS the most popular flavor. I saw that study 2 days ago.

Cocked & Locked
January 24, 2014, 11:29 AM
Four years ago I asked a guy working behind the counter at Boondock Sporting Goods & Outfitters in Eagle River Alaska what was the most popular caliber rifle they sold.

His answer was .30-06. Was he right? I don't know. Is that the same answer today and would another employee have given the same answer? I don't know that either. Maybe it was just the first thing that came to his mind.

The Wal-Mart in Eagle River had many .30-06 rifles. But then again, lots .375's also.

An interesting link from Alaska Fish & Game regarding rifles & calibers... http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=hunting.firearms

BigBore44
January 24, 2014, 11:50 AM
Cocked & Locked,
New study found. Thanks for posting that. I'm sure the late, great, Jack O'connor is smiling knowing his favorite cartridge is still capable as well.

Arizona_Mike
January 24, 2014, 12:08 PM
I have a .30-06 bolt gun I have not shot since 2000. I have a combination gun in .30-06 that I have not yet shot. So, no, I'd say you are not missing anything.

Mike

Nom de Forum
January 24, 2014, 12:13 PM
Four years ago I asked a guy working behind the counter at Boondock Sporting Goods & Outfitters in Eagle River Alaska what was the most popular caliber rifle they sold.

His answer was .30-06. Was he right? I don't know. Is that the same answer today and would another employee have given the same answer? I don't know that either. Maybe it was just the first thing that came to his mind.

The Wal-Mart in Eagle River had many .30-06 rifles. But then again, lots .375's also.

An interesting link from Alaska Fish & Game regarding rifles & calibers... http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=hunting.firearms

I am gratified that the Great State of Alaska agrees with my statement in post #103, "The bottom line is a bullet of strong enough construction, with high sectional density, from a medium caliber rifle fired accurately is known to get the job done."

CraigC
January 24, 2014, 12:23 PM
Popularity doesn't make something good. Just look at pop music.


An interesting link from Alaska Fish & Game regarding rifles & calibers...
All that article says is what I would hope most of us would say. That you're better off with a .30-06 you can shoot well than a .375 that you cannot. What it does not say is that the .30-06 is "just as good". A bigger hammer is still a bigger hammer.


You may even find yourself wondering why you are spending so much time with the care and feeding of all those other rifles that are more specialized.
I find myself wondering why I wouldn't want to.

Variety is the spice of life. I can't imagine wanting to hunt deer with a .30-06 when cartridges like the .260, 6.5x55, 7mm-08, .308 are better suited and recoil less. I don't expect its fans to understand or change their minds but folks should know that not everybody runs with the crowd.

PS, when I made the statement about critters that bite back, I wasn't talking about black bears and cougars. :rolleyes:

back40
January 24, 2014, 12:39 PM
Pop music and guns are different in that guns don't gain popularity unless they do what you ask of them. There are very few popular, but ineffective guns.

Also, how is .308 better suited to deer hunting? The negligible difference in recoil doesn't come into play while hunting, and unless one is recoil sensitive, shouldn't hinder proper practice either.

Nom de Forum
January 24, 2014, 12:54 PM
Popularity doesn't make something good. Just look at pop music.

I find myself wondering why I wouldn't want to.

Variety is the spice of life. I can't imagine wanting to hunt deer with a .30-06 when cartridges like the .260, 6.5x55, 7mm-08, .308 are better suited and recoil less. I don't expect its fans to understand or change their minds but folks should know that not everybody runs with the crowd.

PS, when I made the statement about critters that bite back, I wasn't talking about black bears and cougars. :rolleyes:

I agree: "Variety is the spice of life". After spending the first half of my life where that variety was primarily about different aspects of shooting, I am spending the second half on many completely different "spices". I am still very much interested in all things shooting but do far less of it and more importantly do it far more time efficiently with regard to proficiency and maintenance.

I do not see how any of the cartridges you listed are "better suited" other than in minor standard characteristics of trajectory and weight of platform. These two characteristics can be so nearly matched by an appropriate load and platform selection in .30-06 that they become insignificant. The same cannot be said about them when trying to match the performance of the -06 in heavier loadings.

I see nothing illogical with your choices for your needs or the desire for many to not "run with the crowd". At one time I was much like you in rifle choices and even more iconoclastic than I am now. Although I still very much enjoy discovering and exposing the clay feet of the idols of shooting. The only real thing to miss about the .30-06 is what so many have posted here. It is "the balance point", "the vanilla", "the One", for well handling most hunting situations when only one choice can be made. "A bigger hammer is still a bigger hammer" is true but not always desirable. Have you ever seen a War Hammer? The don't look anything like what is in Hollywood fantasies such a Conan the Barbarian. They are just big enough to have effective destructive mass while maintaining quick handling and prevent fatigue for the average knight. Kinda like a .30-06.

Mike1234567
January 24, 2014, 01:32 PM
I like vanilla... but I like various toppings. Most calibers offer many toppings.

I'm not a hunter but I'm sure I could easily get buy with a powerful .22 cal pellet rifle, .223 Rem, .308 Win and .458 SOCOM anywhere in the north American continent. Of course... this is from READING... not practical experience.

If I could have only ONE rifle for the entire NAC it would be a .30-06... again just from reading... and because it has the greatest "variety of toppings".

Inebriated
January 24, 2014, 01:32 PM
If you don't need a .30" 150-220gr bullet going down range at 3000-2700fps, then no, you don't need .30-06. Good all-around cartridge, great history, but if all you're shooting is white tail or smaller game, then you don't need it.

BigBore44
January 24, 2014, 01:48 PM
Ok Craig,
You weren't speaking of big cats and black bear. So you were only speaking of the biggest game that bites back. Not what was stated, but allowing someone to clarify is always benificial. But you state the 260, 6.5x55, 7mm-08, and 308 are better suited for deer. I'm not how the phrase "A bigger hammer is still a bigger hammer" applies to you caliber choice. The '06 fires "bigger hammers" than all of those other cartridges.

I do however agree that variety is wonderful. And I do not think you are in any way wrong for choosing other cartridges. There isn't anything wrong with any of those choices. Plenty capable for pronghorn, deer, elk, and, with a properly placed shot, moose. And there are many, many, cartridges just as capable as the few you mentioned. It would take all day to list them all. BUT, the 30-06, with it's plethora of options, not just in loads, but also rifle choices, is a testament to its versatility and popularity.

107 years of proven performance isn't a fad. It's a legacy. And a well deserved one at that.

AABEN
January 24, 2014, 01:52 PM
NO why buy a gun you will shoot paper with 2 times a year? Take that money buy more ammo so you can shoot more.

Nom de Forum
January 24, 2014, 02:28 PM
I think CraigC has some valid points from his perspective of being a multi-rifle owner. Here are some valid points from a multi-rifle owner, CraigB.


http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/the-30-06-still-americas-best/

CraigC
January 24, 2014, 02:42 PM
Pop music and guns are different in that guns don't gain popularity unless they do what you ask of them. There are very few popular, but ineffective guns.
I never said it was ineffective.


Also, how is .308 better suited to deer hunting? The negligible difference in recoil doesn't come into play while hunting, and unless one is recoil sensitive, shouldn't hinder proper practice either.
Less recoil, shorter, lighter rifles. Less of what you don't need. I have no problem with recoil or weight, I just prefer to trim the fat when it's unnecessary. The only significant advantage the .30-06 has over the .308 is with bullets over 180gr. IMHO, if you need more than that, you need more than the .30-06.


"A bigger hammer is still a bigger hammer" is true but not always desirable.
I was obviously referring to those situation where it is desirable.


Fact is, the .30-06's touted "versatility" is simply perception. There are plenty of other cartridges that cover the same ground and do just as well. The fact that there are over 100 posts in this thread, mostly worshiping the .30-06, is enough for me to disregard it. Just like the .357Mag in handguns. Over-hyped and over-rated. The magic exists only in the minds of their fans.

Personally, I don't have any kind of emotional tie to the `06. I might consider my perspective to be more objective, tainted only by my distaste for what is popular. I prefer blackpowder and leverguns anyway.

stiab
January 24, 2014, 03:08 PM
...when I made the statement about critters that bite back, I wasn't talking about black bears...
I certainly would not rule them out. We had a death here in NC a while back, and there was one in PA two years ago. Within the last two months an 18 year old girl in PA got mauled on her family farm.

BigBore44
January 24, 2014, 03:10 PM
Craig,
That's the great thing about we Americans. We have the luxury of preference. While I am not a black powder shooter, I love lever guns also. And your opinion or preference to like one over another is completely justifiable. Not just in your eyes, but mine also.

However, I do not believe any of the members, myself included, are "worshiping" the 30-06. We simply recognize and respect it for what it is; an extremely versatile cartridge with great historical significance. As stated by Mike1234567, in it's factory form, it is the vanilla ice cream of rifle cartridges. And to a reloader, it's got almost all the other flavorful toppings available.

back40
January 24, 2014, 03:19 PM
Craig, I know you didn't say it was ineffective, but you were suggesting that it's popularity didn't mean it was s good choice. My point is that it's popularity is a direct result of it's effectiveness, and it's ability to do a wide range of tasks quite well.

As I pointed out earlier, in the same rifle .308 means only 1/2" and maybe 6 ounces saved. Not enough to matter in my opinion, and a mild tradeoff to gain the ability to use heavier projectiles if desired.

LRShooting
January 24, 2014, 07:04 PM
308 is more "economic" than a 30-06? I would love to see the facts behind that statement. Seeing as how the AR-10 shooters bought all the .308 during the panic. '06 was still available the whole time here. Walmart, Academy, Bass Pro all had 30-06 ammo. 308, 223, 7.62x39, gone.

And why if you had to choose just one, and so many say that one would be the '06, would you not own one? Where exactly are the flaws with the '06? It's not performance. It's been doing that well for 100 years on everything from deer to moose. It's not price. It's not availability. It's not reloading options or capabilities. It's not inherit accuracy issues.

The issue with the 30-06 is 2 things:
1. It's not new.
2. It doesn't have "Magnum" beside it's name.

You don't have to say its the greatest cartridge ever produced. But to deny its abilities is borderline absurd.
Huh? I never said it had flaws. I said there was better options if one would want to have more than 1 gun. Like I said, 30-06 would be the gun to have if you only had one gun. Its great all around. However, like others said, its the jack of all trades, but not the best at any of them. So if you had 2 guns, why wouldn't you select 2 more suitable cartriges if you shot varmits and moose? As far as economics, it cost me 50 cents a bullet to reload for match components. Its literally impossible to do for 30-06 if using like components except for the cases because the powder charge, if kept as a percentage of case capacity equal, is higher. Also, cases can be found as low as 125$ a thousand for once fired NATO and should last 9 more rounds so 1.3 cents per case. I also found .308 when I couldn't find 30-06, so that issue could be regional.
I never once denied its abilities, and I don't think of cartridges as old or new, or magnums and non magnums. Those aren't even issues in my world, they are simply words used to describe. I will admit, 30-06 is a great all around gun, as put in my first post. It just wouldn't be my choice if I jumped up to other calibers. Regardless, thats what I get for not agreeing with a 30-06 as best round on a thread that asks if your missing something without a 30-06 lol.

Nom de Forum
January 24, 2014, 07:06 PM
Craig,

No worshiping here for the .30-06, just appreciation for capability proven by a century+ of accomplishment. I am about the last gun guy that could be accurately described as sentimental about any particular cartridge that I use. I have a very "Roman" attitude about the deadly tools I use. I do however have a sentimental attitude for some firearms associated with good times with family and historical events.

LRShooting
January 24, 2014, 07:06 PM
But Vanilla is such a popular flavor...liked by most and available many places. Most youngster like exotic flavors for some reason .:D
That actually makes perfect since when applied to any application almost..... We do like newer things (exotic). I almost wonder if it isn't just our whole generation that just wants to try everything new and not hold on too things. I honestly think that could be due to so many options being available and not being in a economic crisis.

Paul7
January 24, 2014, 07:33 PM
I don't have a .30-'06 and don't think I am missing something. Others have pointed out the .308 will do most of what the .30-'06 will do, my 6.5x55 will do most of what a .308 will do, with less blast and recoil (it matters when you're pushing 60). So far I've killed 10 animals with it from wild hogs to cow elk, all DRT with factory ammo.

.45 ACP is another story, I've got a bunch of them.

DRYHUMOR
January 24, 2014, 08:23 PM
I bought this as a barreled action, then found a stock, then found rings and bases, and then, put on a spare scope.

Did I need a 30-06 for sake of it being a 30-06? No. I bought a barreled action that happened to be a 30-06, for the action. I'll shoot it some, and work up some loads, and maybe even hunt with it. I can appreciate it for what it is. It shoots Berger VLD 168 gr less than an inch at 160 yds.

Does anyone need more than one rifle or only a handful of calibers? Or, a specific caliber? Not at all; but one can come to appreciate the limits, uses, and experiences of the difference between them.

And yes, that solid pad doesn't do much for the felt recoil....:cool:

http://dryhumor.smugmug.com/photos/i-KVR4RVF/0/L/i-KVR4RVF-L.jpg

Cocked & Locked
January 24, 2014, 10:57 PM
Nice rifle!

Agsalaska
January 24, 2014, 11:14 PM
CraigC:

Fact is, the .30-06's touted "versatility" is simply perception. There are plenty of other cartridges that cover the same ground and do just as well.

OK. Name one.

Eb1
January 24, 2014, 11:32 PM
Within average hunting ranges any calibre based off the '06. I'd also throw in the 30-30 and 22wmr and 12 gauge shot gun.

Agsalaska
January 24, 2014, 11:50 PM
Within average hunting ranges any calibre based off the '06. I'd also throw in the 30-30 and 22wmr and 12 gauge shot gun.
Was this a response to me asking him to name one?

If it is it does not make any sense. We were talking about versatility, then you set limitations. It doesn't work that way.

If you were not responding to me then I apologize.

BigBore44
January 25, 2014, 12:53 AM
DRYHUMOR,
+1 on the beautiful rifle. Does it matter to me if it's an '06 or a 260 or a 300WM? Nope. I appreciate it for the asthetics, not the chambering.

LRShooting,
That fact may indeed be regional. And from a long range, match shooting, price, perspective (mainly due to powder charge) the 308 may have a couple cents over the '06....may. And dang it, I'm not knocking the 308, or any cartridge for that matter. I don't care if its factory non-magnums, Weatherby mags, Ackley Improveds, Lazzaroni's, WM, WSM, WSSM, RUM's, RSAUM's or any other wildcat cartridge. Mine (our) point is defending fictitious, presumed, inadequacies of one of the greatest, and most popular hunting cartridges of all time. How long does a round have to not just survive, but thrive, to earn respect. Many of the above mentioned cartridges will fall by the wayside. They will be replaced with something newer and mildly more flavorful. That seems to be the trend nowadays. And then only reloaders will be concerned with them. But NONE of them will ever have the history of the '06. And the '06 will still be here. Still putting down antelope, deer, elk, moose, cats, and bear, every year.

savanahsdad
January 25, 2014, 01:40 AM
CraigC:



OK. Name one.
ok .. 7.62X63 :) even better if you neck it down to .277 :)

sorry, some days I just can't help myself :)

savanahsdad
January 25, 2014, 01:51 AM
. I'm sure the late, great, Jack O'connor is smiling knowing his favorite cartridge is still capable as well.



the 270win or his other the 7X57mm :D

BigBore44
January 25, 2014, 07:03 AM
^^Well I didn't say his "other" did I? And I don't recall reading 7x57 in that article. So we'll say 270.

j1
January 25, 2014, 08:52 AM
Not having a 30 06 may be treason or at least illegal. Buy one and enjoy it.

Eb1
January 25, 2014, 10:51 AM
I was answering you, and any cartridges based on the '06 is versitle. And for the most versatility I mentioned the 12 game shotgun.

BigBore44
January 25, 2014, 12:30 PM
Eb1,
While we were talking about rifle cartridges, I cannot disagree with you. It is truly one of those guns that has all the bases covered pretty well. ~150 yards it's perfectly capable of taking anything on this continent. With a pump 12 with the proper barrel and slugs and 00 as backup, I would feel very comfortable walking anywhere dangerous critters roam.

I like j1's signature a lot. "The 30-06 is never a mistake".....So true.

CraigC
January 25, 2014, 12:36 PM
I would feel very comfortable walking anywhere dangerous critters roam.
I wouldn't. Shotgun slugs are not the Hammer of Thor that people think they are.

Inebriated
January 25, 2014, 12:56 PM
I wouldn't. Shotgun slugs are not the Hammer of Thor that people think they are.



Well then go tell that to all the predators that mistakenly fell to a shotgun.



We get it, Craig, you've got everything figured out and all things popular are a lie and don't work. Your work here is done.

savanahsdad
January 25, 2014, 01:16 PM
^^Well I didn't say his "other" did I? And I don't recall reading 7x57 in that article. So we'll say 270.
no you didn't say "other" but Jack O'conner had a few favorites, the 270win being written about the most and others not so much , but where you slipped that post in one might think you meant O'Conner's favorite was the 30-06 , I had to read it twice to see that was not what you meant , the "as well" at the end is what threw me , ,, any way I'm sure he is , I have 4 of his beloved 270's

savanahsdad
January 25, 2014, 01:39 PM
Not having a 30 06 may be treason or at least illegal. Buy one and enjoy it.
hummm not sure according to crazy uncle Joe , we only NEED a shotgun LOL. :)

BigBore44
January 25, 2014, 04:56 PM
savanahsdad,
I know Jack had a few favorites. But when the name Jack O'connor is mention, (most) people instantly think 270. And I wasn't trying to get extra (celebrity) support for the '06. But I can see how it appeared that way.

CraigC,
Please, oh please will you start an informative thread so all us uneducated folk can be learned on what guns are good? I so don't want to be in the dark ages any more. And seeing as how your a "Contributing Member" with over 10,000 posts, you must omnipotent when it comes to all things firearms. Last time I checked the the real Thor's Hammer would be the 950 JDJ. So don't go anywhere without that gun guys. You'll be in grave danger. Only the real Thor's Hammer can keep you safe.

Disclamer: No offense to any other "Contributing Members" or any other member with more than 10,000 posts intended.

CraigC
January 26, 2014, 11:35 AM
Well then go tell that to all the predators that mistakenly fell to a shotgun.
Here's a hint, there is a very good reason why nobody uses a shotgun with slugs in Africa. While that massive three quarter inch bore is impressive to the eye, slugs don't have what it takes for deep penetration on heavy game. There is no magic.


Please, oh please will you start an informative thread so all us uneducated folk can be learned on what guns are good? I so don't want to be in the dark ages any more. And seeing as how your a "Contributing Member" with over 10,000 posts, you must omnipotent when it comes to all things firearms. Last time I checked the the real Thor's Hammer would be the 950 JDJ. So don't go anywhere without that gun guys. You'll be in grave danger. Only the real Thor's Hammer can keep you safe.
There's no reason to get personal or defensive. There's also no reason for this discussion to degrade into a free-for-all. I didn't spit on your dog or talk about your momma. We don't all have to like the same thing and yes, believe it or not, some people still believe in myths.

There's a reason why big, dangerous critters are stopped by big, heavy rifles and not shotguns. There's a reason why they use .375's, .450/.400's, .416's, .404's, .458's, .470's and .500's. Not only do those cartridges utilize large diameter bullets but they are also heavy for their caliber. Yes, a slug will stomp a deer pretty good but they lack the sectional density that is usually required for deep penetration on heavy game. People seem to freak out when I bring up sectional density, as if I'm trying to fool them with a magic trick but SD is simply the easiest way to compare heavy bullets to one another. It is very well proven what cartridges work best on the heaviest of game. The one thing they all have in common is that they use toughly constructed, large diameter bullets but that isn't enough. They must also be heavy for their diameter and the number we use to determine that is sectional density. I'm sorry but it is not an earth shattering revelation that a shotgun slug with a sectional density from .117 (1oz Foster) to a best of .233 (Dixie Terminator) is not going to penetrate as well as a .450/.400 slinging a 400gr with an SD of .338, the .416Rigby slinging a 400gr with an SD of .330 or a .458 slinging a 500gr with an SD of .350.

In penetration testing, shotgun slugs penetrate how we should expect them to. Comparable to handgun bullets of comparable SD and velocity. They just make a bigger hole.

Rayzor
January 26, 2014, 12:07 PM
You (Mainecoon) 22-250 for targets and a .243 for deer. How many other calibers do you keep for other critters?
I have my 30.06 and I can load lighter or heavier rounds depending on what I want to hunt and still use the same rifle.
A 30.06 is very versatile and works on woodchucks to moose.

Inebriated
January 26, 2014, 01:39 PM
Here's a hint, there is a very good reason why nobody uses a shotgun with slugs in Africa. While that massive three quarter inch bore is impressive to the eye, slugs don't have what it takes for deep penetration on heavy game. There is no magic.
There's a reason why big, dangerous critters are stopped by big, heavy rifles and not shotguns. There's a reason why they use .375's, .450/.400's, .416's, .404's, .458's, .470's and .500's. Not only do those cartridges utilize large diameter bullets but they are also heavy for their caliber. Yes, a slug will stomp a deer pretty good but they lack the sectional density that is usually required for deep penetration on heavy game. People seem to freak out when I bring up sectional density, as if I'm trying to fool them with a magic trick but SD is simply the easiest way to compare heavy bullets to one another. It is very well proven what cartridges work best on the heaviest of game. The one thing they all have in common is that they use toughly constructed, large diameter bullets but that isn't enough. They must also be heavy for their diameter and the number we use to determine that is sectional density. I'm sorry but it is not an earth shattering revelation that a shotgun slug with a sectional density from .117 (1oz Foster) to a best of .233 (Dixie Terminator) is not going to penetrate as well as a .450/.400 slinging a 400gr with an SD of .338, the .416Rigby slinging a 400gr with an SD of .330 or a .458 slinging a 500gr with an SD of .350.

In penetration testing, shotgun slugs penetrate how we should expect them to. Comparable to handgun bullets of comparable SD and velocity. They just make a bigger hole.

And here's a hint for you, Craig, if you compare foster slugs, sure, they're like big handgun bullets. But how about we look at a load that is actually comparable to the big bores? A 600gr sabot has effectively the same sectional density as a 540gr .458 bullet. .343 vs. .363. A 600gr sabot can get to be driven to at least 1890fps (referencing Lightfield's Commander 3.5" 12 gauge load). If you look at Garrett's .45-70 load for a 540gr bullet, it's going 1550fps. In the .458 Win Mag, a 500gr bullet is going 2150 (referencing Double Tap). Stop making generalizations to suit your argument, and please stop throwing around words like "magic" and "myth" like everyone has fooled themselves, and you're the only one who sees the light.

Bobson
January 26, 2014, 01:45 PM
Geez. I've been planning on getting another .270 for my next rifle, but now I know what I actually need to get is a 30-06. Glad I read this. :)

back40
January 26, 2014, 01:47 PM
it's funny how this thread was started about the 30-06, and now we have discussion about how shotguns aren't good for predators because they aren't used in africa :rolleyes:

ever think that some of you just like to argue rather than admit that someone else has made a valid point regarding their own personal choice?

ilbob
January 26, 2014, 01:51 PM
Everyone should have at least one 1903 variant Springfield rifle. For old times sake if nothing else.

CraigC
January 26, 2014, 02:12 PM
...if you compare foster slugs, sure, they're like big handgun bullets.
Fosters are not even up to a patched round ball. Nowhere near what you get from a good, standard weight handgun bullet. Much less a heavyweight.


A 600gr sabot has effectively the same sectional density as a 540gr .458 bullet. .343 vs. .363. A 600gr sabot can get to be driven to at least 1890fps (referencing Lightfield's Commander 3.5" 12 gauge load).
Obviously if you stick a smaller diameter bullet in a plastic sabot, it changes things a wee bit. Then it's no longer a 12ga (~.73cal) slug. However, those are still soft lead and designed to expand. From Lightfield's site:

"The Lightfield Commander IDS PLUS is a controlled expansion, deep penetration, “Heavy Game” slug intended for game of (300lbs or better), thus the IDS PLUS will normally shoot thru deer size game."

Good Lord, I would hope a "heavy game" slug would shoot through deer sized game. A 200gr cast .45Colt bullet at 800fps will do that.


Stop making generalizations to suit your argument...
I don't make sweeping generalizations. I try to be as specific as possible.


...please stop throwing around words like "magic" and "myth" like everyone has fooled themselves, and you're the only one who sees the light.
Hmmm....Mark Twain said it is easier to fool someone than to convince them they've been fooled. Carry on.....

back40
January 26, 2014, 02:19 PM
Carry on....

we were doing that just fine, until someone's dislike for the cartridge in question prompted them to call it "overrated". not only absurd statement on your part, but generations of gunwriters and folks far more experienced than you would disagree.

perhaps it isn't the supporters of the fine old 30-06 that are being foolish in this thread.

CraigC
January 26, 2014, 02:32 PM
I'm sorry, I thought this was a place for free exchange of ideas. My mistake. I didn't realize it was just a place for people to always agree and stroke each other's egos. I'm 'trying' to discuss cartridges and you guys want to make it personal.

PS, it ain't dislike, I just don't see what the big deal is. To me, it ain't one.

Nom de Forum
January 26, 2014, 03:01 PM
Like the .30-06 this thread just keeps on going!:D

Stop talking about conventional slugs intended for deer and consider slugs designed for thin skinned dangerous game (Brown Bears, Lions, etc.). They work very well. You might do a search on buckshot actually used against Brown Bears as it has actually been more effective than intuition would lead you to believe.

Jack ".270" O'Connor would probably be the first to tell you have would rather face a charging Griz with a heavy .30 caliber bullet in .30-06 than any .270 load. His love for the .270 was greatly influence by where he lived and what he hunted. Not too much Brown Bear hunting in his normal hunting grounds. He also knew the value of establishing his name tied to a great cartridge for professional reasons. It is not as if Jack did not greatly appreciate the .30-06.

CraigC how could you not anticipate making the comment the .30-06 is overrated without realizing you would be throwing gasoline on a fire? You have no reason to not expect to be singed.

back40
January 26, 2014, 03:06 PM
i didn't notice any ego stroking, just discussion surrounding what many deem to be a great, classic and versatile cartridge for north american hunting. no one ever said it was the be all end all, as that doesn't exist ( at least not in my mind).

CraigC
January 26, 2014, 03:09 PM
CraigC how could you not anticipate making the comment the .30-06 is overrated without realizing you would be throwing gasoline on a fire?
I have no problem with that but the discussion should be about the cartridges, not each other. Without snide remarks about post counts and the like.

I do think the cartridge is overrated. I think most of this worship is due to WWII GI's coming home, having spent their time in hell dependent on the `06 for their very lives. There's nothing wrong with that affection. It's not that the .30-06 is not capable of doing 'most' of what people believe. It's that there are lots of cartridges with similar capabilities. You would think that 70yrs later, we would be able to have an objective discussion about it without a mob forming. I guess not.

frankenstein406
January 26, 2014, 03:10 PM
358win or 35 whelen with a 225 grainer

back40
January 26, 2014, 03:16 PM
well, again i don't see any mob forming. i agree that there are any number of cartridges that are extremely versatile, but the '06 has history and decades of successful use behind it to keep it going. in it's class i'm not sure you can name another that does everything equally well or better, and also have such a wide range of factory ammo available all over the world. i recently read a writeup by a fella who's been to africa many times, who's convinced that the 30-06 and 375hh are the two best guns you can possibly take with you, and will handle everything you encounter.

CraigC
January 26, 2014, 03:26 PM
...but the '06 has history and decades of successful use behind it to keep it going.
And the 7x57 doesn't? What about the .308, no history or decades of use behind it? You're giving reasons as to why it's popular, nothing more. Which has nothing to do with its capability. There are plenty others like it that all do the same thing.

Fact is, if you asked this question of European hunters, you'd get a decidedly European answer. Perception is everything.

The bottom line is that it's popular but a man can very easily go all his life without one and not miss a thing.


i recently read a writeup by a fella who's been to africa many times, who's convinced that the 30-06 and 375hh are the two best guns you can possibly take with you, and will handle everything you encounter.
You could easily say the same thing about other cartridges. I hope that wasn't ad-whore Craig Boddington.

back40
January 26, 2014, 03:33 PM
a man can very easily go all his life without one and not miss a thing

this may be true, not only of the '06 but of any caliber, cartridge, firearm etc.

again, the capability of the 30-06 IS the reason it's so popular. if it didn't do all those things so well, it would've been passed up long ago. yes there are others that do the same thing, but are they as available in both off the shelf factory loadings, and platform? the 30-06 has more going for it than simply ballistics on paper.

CraigC
January 26, 2014, 03:39 PM
...the capability of the 30-06 IS the reason it's so popular.
Yes but it's not the only reason. It is one of many. Let us not pretend for one second that shooters and hunters always choose their cartridges according to capability. Lots of great, capable cartridges have gone by the wayside for myriad reasons having nothing to do with their capability. As a collective, we are a fickle bunch. Which is why I put ZERO importance on popularity.


the 30-06 has more going for it than simply ballistics on paper.
Yep, it has a lot of myth, legend and belief going for it. Which is far more powerful than paper ballistics.

HammsBeer
January 26, 2014, 03:47 PM
I have no need or desire to own a 30-06. I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything by not owning a 30-06. Will probably go the rest of my life without a 30-06. I'm not a true American unless I own a 30-06. Better hurry up and get a 30-06. :rolleyes:

Sav .250
January 26, 2014, 03:54 PM
You said,"I don`t need a 30-06." Most folks make assumptions when they know little of the subject.
Your right. you don`t need an "06.' The 243 is fine for deer and such.

back40
January 26, 2014, 03:55 PM
Yep, it has a lot of myth, legend and belief

ok, so what myths and legends do you feel are driving the demand for 30-06? can you state a few?

would you also say that .308's popularity is based in the myth that is can do everything 30-06 can do? because after all, i see that touted quite often when people recommend it, and it surely is myth, not fact.

Mike1234567
January 26, 2014, 04:02 PM
I opted for .30-06 vs. .308 Win due to it's better performance with heavier bullets... up to 240gr. Plus it can be down-loaded to less than .30-30 ballistics. Plus 110gr bullets are available for varmints. It can be loaded to be nearly perfect for anything from coyote to bison and can even save your behind from brown bear too... and most of these loads are available commercially. What other caliber can make that claim?

wyohome
January 26, 2014, 06:40 PM
I am a .308 guy. My father bought a Model 88 in .308 when I was a baby and I have shot them since. I am American enough to have once owned a 30-06 but it got stolen or misplaced and I didn't think enough of it to try to get it back. If my dad would have started me on an '06, I would be shooting them, I suppose. If there was some need in my life to launch 240 grain bullets, I would be using neither an '06 or a .308.

wyohome
January 26, 2014, 06:53 PM
More North American Elk have been killed with it since its inception than all other rifle rounds combined.
Is this actually true? I can only think of a couple of hunters that use them here, our secretary and her dad. Maybe other places they are more popular.

Nom de Forum
January 26, 2014, 08:13 PM
This is for all you guys posting the .30-06 is overrated. Until someone makes claims for the old Springfield similar to the advertised claims below I think you ought to admit it does what everyone says and does it well enough to stay popular. Not popular because it is cool and trendy but because it works. Not because it was used in two world wars because any cache from that is really about the 1903, Garand, and BAR not the cartridge. Not because young shooters and hunters who still buy -06s are conservative in choices and want to fit in with the old hands, because they don't.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/WeatherbyAdJan1958AmericanRiflemanc.jpg

They might as well have used copy that said "Weatherby magnums, what Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers wished they had."

Art Eatman
January 26, 2014, 08:25 PM
Seven pages seems like more than enough. :D

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