Are these the only SAO subcompact autoloaders?


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Mitlov
January 22, 2014, 05:46 PM
Shopping around for a more carry-friendly companion for my 1911. All things equal, I would definitely prefer a SAO trigger because it'll be closer to the trigger feel on my 1911 and my BPS. Are these the only options out there from mainstream manufacturers, or am I missing some?

Sig P238
Sig P938
Remington R51
Kimber Solo

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chris in va
January 22, 2014, 05:59 PM
Bit of a stretch, but you could get a CZ Compact with safety and convert it to SAO. I did this with my 97b, wasn't hard. Cajun Gun works has everything you need to convert and he's very helpful.

This is my 97.

http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af202/cabinfever41/FA1629E5-03FF-43A5-8128-B154046CE863_zpswatpkp5n.jpg (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/cabinfever41/media/FA1629E5-03FF-43A5-8128-B154046CE863_zpswatpkp5n.jpg.html)

ddc
January 22, 2014, 06:10 PM
I don't know if the Springfield EMP is considered a sub-compact but it might work?

BlindJustice
January 22, 2014, 06:13 PM
In the world of the 1911

full size = 1911 5" Bbl.
Compact = Commanderr 4"-4.25"
SUb Compact = Officers frame and 3"- 3.5"

So, add Colt Defender and New Agent

STI makes the Electra, Escort and Shadow
ll with 3.25" Bbl. with alum. frames so they are
in the 23 oz weight range - and STI makes a lot of 3.25" bbl. models with
steel farames

R-

Mitlov
January 22, 2014, 06:32 PM
Thanks for the info! I'll read up on the CZ, Springfield, Colt, and STI models mentioned.

2wheels
January 22, 2014, 07:52 PM
That depends on how you define subcompact, most people would include virtually all 3" barreled 1911s in that definition, of which there are quite a few from most of the major 1911 makers. Colt, Kimber, Springfield, etc...

But if you're talking even smaller than that, going down to pocket sized the list does get smaller. You already listed the Sig P238/938 and the Solo, there's also the similar Colt Mustang.

MikeJackmin
January 22, 2014, 08:09 PM
The CZ82/83 is DA/SA, but can be carried cocked and locked.

Fremmer
January 22, 2014, 08:27 PM
What about the sig p220 carry compact SAO? You might want to consider that, too.

BlindJustice
January 22, 2014, 09:39 PM
the P220 Carry is a Compact and gat.

From what the O.P. posted
it seems he is looking at Micros a size under sub compact
.

Rantall

Dr.Mall Ninja
January 22, 2014, 09:59 PM
I'm shopping for the same thing, makes me ask myself why cant more guns be made SAO.

Bobo
January 22, 2014, 10:08 PM
The Colt Mustang comes in two versions: metal and polymer...

http://www.coltsmfg.com/Catalog/ColtPistols/Colt380Mustang%C2%AE.aspx


Bobo

Mitlov
January 22, 2014, 10:43 PM
the P220 Carry is a Compact and gat.

From what the O.P. posted
it seems he is looking at Micros a size under sub compact

I'm not necessarily looking at pocket pistols only. I'm looking at basically everything from pocket to compact, with my ideal size somewhere in the middle (15-20 oz, with room for all four fingers from a very small hand, would be ideal for me), and then I'll narrow from there based on criteria for my particular situation (I'm left handed, so no right-hand-only safeties, etc). But without knowing the total list to start narrowing down from, I'm not doing myself much good.

12Bravo20
January 23, 2014, 12:44 AM
If you don't mind buying used, look at the Spanish Firestar pistols. While not true 1911 pistols, they are very similar (minus grip safety) and can be had in 9mm, .40 and .45. The old Colt Pony .380 was actually made by Star for Colt.

2wheels
January 23, 2014, 12:52 AM
I'm not necessarily looking at pocket pistols only. I'm looking at basically everything from pocket to compact, with my ideal size somewhere in the middle (15-20 oz, with room for all four fingers from a very small hand, would be ideal for me), and then I'll narrow from there based on criteria for my particular situation (I'm left handed, so no right-hand-only safeties, etc). But without knowing the total list to start narrowing down from, I'm not doing myself much good.
Well... Not a lot of guns meet all your criteria that I know of.

Subcompact 1911s can have ambi safeties (or have them installed) and you can get your whole hand on the grip, but they'll most likely all be at least a little over your weight requirements.

Sigs P238/938 fall in the weight range and can be found with ambi safeties (or have them installed), but I doubt you can get all your fingers on the grip even with a small hand. I can't, and my hands are small-medium sized. Similar story for the Colt Mustang and Mustang XSP.

The Kimber Solo appears to meet your criteria, although it's been awhile since I've held one and I don't remember how much room there is on the grip.

The Remington R51 is "single action", but we don't really know how the trigger feels since it's not out yet.

Mitlov
January 23, 2014, 01:22 AM
Yeah, if the R51 was a tried and true design, it might just be perfect, but I'm wary of a mechanism that was invented nearly a century ago and every single manufacturer has declined to put in a production gun from then until now.

Kimber Solo would be another clear winner if it had a good reliability reputation. From what I've read online and from the giant disclaimer on Kimber's page about ammo selection, I'm scared.

Sig P938...if I could get my pinkie on it, it would be great, but I haven't found one in person yet to check it out.

I figure I'll probably have to compromise a bit off my ideal design, but haven't decided whether to get slightly smaller than ideal or slightly bigger than ideal. For now just shooting the full-size 1911 at the range to improve my abilities.

2wheels
January 23, 2014, 02:27 AM
It didn't occur to me earlier, but both the P238 and 938 have +1 magazines available that extend the length of the grip.

Owlnmole
January 23, 2014, 03:59 AM
I think Para Ordnance used to make single-stack and double-stack single-action 9mm compact pistols that might work for you, but I don't see them listed anymore. STI still makes a few, like this one: http://www.stiguns.com/the-sti-shadow/ But they are not cheap.

Mitlov
January 23, 2014, 04:16 AM
Yeah, STI's out of my price range. Sig, Colt, and Springfield EMP are a stretch, but maybe doable. Remington R51 is very comfortably-priced. But regardless, there were a ton of SAO pistols I didn't know existed. Glad this forum is here.

As for hand size, here's my hand with my 1911. Easily room for another finger on the grip (insert Princess Bride joke here), and I'm glad the mag release is on the "wrong" side, because as you can see, my thumb wouldn't reach it for normal use. I release it with my trigger finger. So I'm thinking I might be able to get my pinky onto a grip that'd leave your average dude's pinky hanging.

http://i.imgur.com/5zgfy93.jpg?1

Owlnmole
January 23, 2014, 04:46 AM
If looking for something inexpensive, you might check out the Serbian-made Zastava M88 9mm imported by Century, basically a baby Tokarev. All steel, so not light, but relatively thin so doable as a carry gun. I have read that they are solid guns once broken in. Classic Firearms has them for $240 includinga spare mag and a cleaning brush: http://www.classicfirearms.com/zastava-m88-c

http://cdn2.armslist.com/sites/armslist/uploads/posts/2011/07/03/156950_01_zastava_m88_9mm_640.jpg

http://www.classicfirearms.com/zastava-m88-c

Quiet
January 23, 2014, 11:34 AM
The SIG P-238 is a clone of the Colt Mustang.

The Remington R-51 is not a "subcompact". It's a compact sized pistol, similar in size to the Walther PP.

Jim Watson
January 23, 2014, 12:25 PM
The Solo is DAO although a very light DA.

BlindJustice
January 23, 2014, 12:27 PM
Mitlov, any preference on cartridge chambering for the
sub-compact SAO?

R-

cuervo
January 23, 2014, 01:17 PM
Aren't Kahrs considered SA? Or do you want cocked-and-locked capability?
http://www.kahr.com/Pistols/Kahr-MK9.asp

herrwalther
January 23, 2014, 01:19 PM
The lemon-ish AMT Backup had a single action model. About the size of the Ruger LCP.

Mitlov
January 23, 2014, 03:14 PM
Mitlov, any preference on cartridge chambering for the
sub-compact SAO?

R-

All things equal, I would definitely prefer 9mm over 380, because I believe in practicing a lot with what I carry, and 380 ammo for range use is selling for a lot more than 9mm for range use right now. I think the cheapest 50-round box of brass 9mm on cheaper than dirt is a third the price of the cheapest 50-round box of 380. But like with other things, I'm realizing I may be setting up a scenario where no one gun meets all my criteria and I'd have to bend on one thing or another.

verdun59
January 23, 2014, 03:45 PM
herrwalther,

You are being too kind when you call an AMT lemon-ish. It's not even a decent paper weight.

DeanV
January 23, 2014, 03:57 PM
On my p938 with extended grip, I can get half a pinkie on it. Enough to hold. I have wide hands though.

Mitlov
January 23, 2014, 06:29 PM
The SIG P-238 is a clone of the Colt Mustang.

The Remington R-51 is not a "subcompact". It's a compact sized pistol, similar in size to the Walther PP.

I guess I'm a little confused by pistol size terminology then. The Beretta PX4, for example, has models named "PX4 Full Size," "PX4 Compact," and "PX4 Subcompact," and the R51 has less length, less height, less width, and less weight than the PX4 Subcompact. Is there a good rule of thumb for when something is a compact, when it's a subcompact, and when it's considered a pocket pistol?

orionengnr
January 23, 2014, 07:44 PM
Is there a good rule of thumb for when something is a compact, when it's a subcompact, and when it's considered a pocket pistol?

Yes. Don't believe marketing hype. :)

Any manufacturer can call anything they choose a "sub-compact". I can call a camel a goat, too. Doesn't make it true.

Find a handgun that fits in your pocket. Then compare the specs of "similar" models. If the L x W x H and weight are in the same ballpark, you are on the right track.

IMHO, an LCP is a pocket gun. So is a Kahr PM9/CM9. Anything larger is getting iffy. I have used a j-frame as a pocket gun, as have many others...but the j-frame is a good bit longer in overall length.

Do your own homework.

Mitlov
January 23, 2014, 07:53 PM
I actually wasn't looking for a true pocket gun, but for a small, light gun I could do IWB carry with (with a tuckable holster). I've shot a Ruger LC9. That's the exact size and weight I want, even though it's not the gun I want (long-and-heavy DAO trigger, right-hand-only thumb safety that's dangerous for a left-hander).

barnbwt
January 23, 2014, 09:02 PM
I don't suppose anyone ever made a single-stack compact Hi-Power clone? It'd be similar to the 1911, I suppose, but still :D

TCB

Owlnmole
January 24, 2014, 01:03 AM
Citadel offers a compact 1911 in .45, 9mm and .38 Super made by ARMSCOR in the Philippines that might work for you.

http://www.galleryofguns.com//ProdImageSm/CIT9MMCSP.JPG

http://www.legacysports.com/m-1911
http://www.galleryofguns.com/genie/default.aspx?item=CIT9MMCSP

KansasSasquatch
January 24, 2014, 02:56 AM
If you want to get technical, Springfield XD's are all single action pistol. And the triggers on them are quite a bit nicer than the triggers on an LC9. Maybe try checking out an XDs. It is somewhat bigger than an LC9, but I'd put it in the same size category.

Chocolate Bayou
January 24, 2014, 01:33 PM
I have the Colt Defender Light Weight in 9mm and think it is outstanding. I have had zero complaints except they are pricey, but I feel they are worth the higher cost cost compared to like guns on the market.

JMO

larryh1108
January 24, 2014, 11:42 PM
The Solo is DAO although a very light DA.

Not true. 100% incorrect.

From Kimber's website:

With a barrel length of just 2.7 inches, Solo pistols are easy to carry and conceal. Many of the features borrowed from 1911 pistols also make them exceptionally safe. A manual ambidextrous thumb safety, checkered slide release and ambidextrous magazine release button enable fast and intuitive operation. Then there is the single action striker-fired trigger pull–even and smooth.

http://www.kimberamerica.com/solo

herrwalther
January 25, 2014, 12:51 AM
You are being too kind when you call an AMT lemon-ish. It's not even a decent paper weight.

I was lucky enough to find one that fed every non-HP with 100% reliability. Never found a hollowpoint brand I could fire a whole box and not see a stovepipe or other jam. It particularly loved Pow R ball rounds and that is what I used for carry. I carried it as a backup pistol when I lived in a not so nice part of the state, when I moved farther out I didn't need it as much. I made it very clear to the store I sold it to that it was a great firearm. That little AMT gave me a great story too. I found part of a tooth underneath the INTERNAL hammer the first time I gave it a thorough cleaning.

Willie Sutton
January 25, 2014, 11:39 AM
"If you don't mind buying used, look at the Spanish Firestar pistols. While not true 1911 pistols, they are very similar (minus grip safety) and can be had in 9mm, .40 and .45."


Sort of like carrying a scuba divers lead weight in your pocket though. And they have a nearly unusable safety. My .40 is the only handgun I've sold in the last decade, traded away as it filled no requirement.

The little SIG is the perfect companion to anyone used to a 1911. There's no need to look further. With that said, I have a fondness for the CZ-82, which can be carried in any condition desired.


Willie

.

KenW.
January 25, 2014, 12:05 PM
The Springfield XD/XDM line are hammerless single action guns. Often they are misrepresented as DA because they are striker-fired. The weapon is cocked upon the slide action, and there is no second strike capability.

Grip angle is the same as the 1911 too.

Mitlov
January 25, 2014, 12:51 PM
The Springfield XD/XDM line are hammerless single action guns. Often they are misrepresented as DA because they are striker-fired. The weapon is cocked upon the slide action, and there is no second strike capability.

Grip angle is the same as the 1911 too.

I know the XDS had a big recall issue recently...has that all been sorted now? Keeping the same grip angle as the 1911 would be nice, to ease transition between the two.

I'm starting to realize that due to cost and weight issues, I should probably be looking at a polymer striker-fire design instead of a miniaturized 1911 for my carry gun.

KenW.
January 25, 2014, 03:00 PM
Hundreds, if not thousands, of products get recalled. We should be thankful of the manufacturer noting problems being able to correct them.

The XDS recall has been going on for some time and the weapons are being returned to the owners. For more info stop in at xdtalk.com/forums and surf around.

To the best of my knowledge the XD subcompacts and the XDM compacts have never been recalled. The XDS is the only one I'd consider to be a pocket gun though.

I own a 9mm XD subcompact, XD 40 subcompact (recently traded away for my dream J-Frame), XD45 compact, and XDM40 3.8 compact. These are the guns that got me to place the Kimber Tactical Custom II on the top shelf of the safe.

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