Ammo Used By Alaskan Officials For Bears


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rodwha
January 22, 2014, 08:40 PM
On a backpacking forum a fellow is mentioning using buckshot for bear protection.

I listed evidence from testing by the US Forest Service and the limited penetration of pellets. He then gave youtube video of the penetration of 000 buck, which was impressive, and much more than what the USFS showed in their testing (old it seemed).

In his evidence he showed a 1 oz 2 3/4" slug only penetrating 2/5 of the distance the pellets did.

I cannot seem to find anything on the ammo the Alaskan officials use for bear, but I've seen how they use slugs, though I cannot seem to find anything on it.

Can anyone help?

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roklok
January 22, 2014, 09:08 PM
The State Troopers, which includes Wildlife Troopers, use Rottweil Brenneke 2.75 inch 1 1/8 ounce slugs.

Torian
January 22, 2014, 09:26 PM
The Brenneke slugs are great penetrators. I've heard of either the Special Forces short magnum or Max Barrier Penetration slugs being used as well. They all use the same hardened lead alloy slugs that deform very little on impact.

The Special Forces short mags are pretty easy on the shoulder too.

rodwha
January 22, 2014, 09:42 PM
Can anyone provide a link?

rodwha
January 22, 2014, 09:44 PM
The slug from his evidence must have been some sort of hollow point or otherwise easily expanded slugs as it barely penetrated 12" or so.

I was still surprised by the penetration of the 000 pellets (~18" in 20% gelatin).

hartcreek
January 22, 2014, 09:51 PM
That is why I load 000 buck and fill the voids with BBs ad I am postig how much 231 or red dot I use but if you are not ready for them oh boy......

rodwha
January 22, 2014, 10:09 PM
Is this load for bears?

If so why?

Tony617
January 23, 2014, 12:44 AM
What about Brenneke 3" Black Magic slugs? I haven't tried them yet but I have ordered some. Right now I have only tried the 2 3/4" Brenneke KO slugs.

200Apples
January 23, 2014, 12:12 PM
.
I somewhat ceased looking online for ammunition as my zip code (Los Angeles) is a no-fly-zone for most ammo shippers.

I can't seem to easily find Brenneke through my local ammunition retailers. I'd love to have a stash of Brenneke or that Special Forces short mag discussed here. I'll be camping this spring in bear country; I'm looking to have a greater sense of security.


:-)

Riomouse911
January 23, 2014, 12:33 PM
000 will carry more juice to the target individually than the smaller buckshot sizes, but forgive my doubts about your friends research. A 1oz slug with about 2700 FPE at the muzzle only penetrating 2/5th the distance of .35 caliber 000 pellets? Was he shooting into sand where the slug just desintegrated? I've participated in 4 FBI protocol tests using foster, sabot and and Brenneke slugs, and unless it is a Winchester segmented slug into bare gel they'll all penetrate like crazy. And in a real-world oops; I (in my far younger, dumber days) once missed my target and had a Remington slugger 1oz slug penetrate a clapboard barn wall, an 8x8 supporting post, a 4x4 stall end post, and the other barn wall on its way to wherever it landed. (Thank the Lord the barn was old and unused anymore)
I would have no qualms loading a 12 gauge up with slugs in a bear situation like you describe.

Mike1234567
January 23, 2014, 12:50 PM
I have zero practical experience so this is only gleaned from reading...

It's been proven that hollow-point hollow base slugs, like Foster-type, expand too much to reliably penetrate very deeply. I doubt that's a good thing for bears or huge hogs. The Brenneke Black Magic and relatively new Federal hardened whatcha-ma-call-ums probably do penetrate plenty.

rodwha
January 23, 2014, 01:58 PM
This guy is a poster on a backpacking forum where the conversation went from a 1 lb .22 rifle to bears.

This guy promoted using staggered slugs and 000/0000 buckshot.

Another felt it was a good idea as a bear might be slowed down by that buckshot to get a better shot with the slug, but then went on to say I'd be hunting if I shot a bear that wasn't chewing on my leg all ready. Funny as it was he who stated shooting a charging bear.

Many stated a gun wan't necessary, that bear spray is the most you'd need. I mentioned that I would certainly want bear spray as it's 90 something percent effective, and I'd prefer to not need to shoot one. But that I'd carry a handgun in the event that the spray didn't work, as well as for any other threats, but that it would be used because it was indeed chewing on my leg.

Here's the thread:

http://forums.backpacker.com/cgi-bin/forums/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=832107219;t=9991169080

Here's the videos showing the penetration of shotgun projectiles:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLun92bR4BA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftrCtOyLrmU#t=26

200Apples
January 23, 2014, 03:16 PM
.
on a backpacking forum where the conversation went from a 1 lb .22 rifle to bears.


Makes sense to me. It's t3h inn4rn3tz, after all... *lol*

:-)


Found some Special Forces short magnum loads... but they won't ship to my zip.

noice.

Fred Fuller
January 23, 2014, 07:48 PM
See if this is the document you had in mind - http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/gtr152.pdf

Buckshot for bears? NOT ME! Hard slugs maybe, Brennekes or Dixies, or the new Federal deep penetrator that BroBee tested, but I wouldn't even use the typical Foster slug on a bear. Even the local black bears...

Inebriated
January 23, 2014, 08:19 PM
Fred, what thinks you about sabot slugs? I don't know of anyone who loads a solid/hardcast sabot, but my thinking is that it launches a .50" bullet in the 430 to 600 gr weight range from 1500-1800fps. Garrett's .45-70 540gr offering is only moving 1550fps.

This (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/633843/lightfield-zombie-commander-ammunition-12-gauge-3-1-3-8-oz-sabot-slug-box-of-5) Lightfield is a 1-3/8oz (600gr) slug at 1800fps! Whether that's in a barrel length that is remotely maneuverable, who knows, but just looking at these two companies, it appears that the sabot IS capable of outdoing some of the hottest .45-70 loads on the market. I'm off base in that assumption? I know very little about sabots, only recently developed a passing interest.

rodwha
January 23, 2014, 08:54 PM
Fred: That's what I sited as a profession opinion on using buckshot (or not).

I just seem to find anything where Alaska is arming their officials with 12 ga slugs, though I've seen they arm them with a Remington shotgun.

I've seen it some time back that they used slugs, but I don't know where I saw that.

JHansenAK47
January 23, 2014, 09:41 PM
Buckshot for bears? NOT ME! Hard slugs maybe, Brennekes or Dixies, or the new Federal deep penetrator that BroBee tested, but I wouldn't even use the typical Foster slug on a bear. Even the local black bears...
+1
Shotguns are close range, so getting charged is a reality. A hard slug will go through bone. Knocking out a bears shoulder will discourage a continued charge.

dprice3844444
January 23, 2014, 10:11 PM
anything non hollow point.the layers of fat may cause the hollow point to open prematurely,decreasing penetration,and may not reach vitals.this will piss off the bear and increase the load in your briefs,impedeing your ability to depart the scene

goon
January 23, 2014, 10:44 PM
Without a doubt, for defense against a bear in Alaska, I'd use a slug over any buck shot any day of the week. A good slug... AKA a Brenneke.

But first, I'd use common sense and a little healthy respect.

I'll be camping this spring in bear country; I'm looking to have a greater sense of security.

I'm not an expert on bears, but I've seen a lot of black bears in the wild, some of them a lot closer than either I or the bear had intended. I've never had one act even the slightest bit aggressive. They either run away leaving a trail of broken trees and churned up mud behind them or just sort of wander off and do their own thing.
I actually like seeing them in the wild. You know you're not in some excuse for a park when a black bear wanders out ten yards in front of you and looks at you like he's surprised to see you there.

So I'd say treat them with respect, don't act stupid, load your shotgun with the best stuff you can find, and enjoy being somewhere that you can actually see a bear. Unless you threaten its cubs or fall asleep in a puddle of bacon grease, you'll almost certainly be fine.

xXxplosive
January 24, 2014, 12:16 AM
Remember reading years ago where Park Munsey who had Alaskan Master Guide Lic. No.1 I believe gave up his H&H 375 for a cut down Win. Model 12 with staggered loads of 00 Buck and Slugs when he had to dispatch a wounded bear in the Alders for a client.

200Apples
January 24, 2014, 12:53 AM
.
go0n

So I'd say treat them with respect, don't act stupid, load your shotgun with the best stuff you can find, and enjoy being somewhere that you can actually see a bear. Unless you threaten its cubs or fall asleep in a puddle of bacon grease, you'll almost certainly be fine.


Well said, goon; and that's the plan. It's pretty much my approach to almost everything, except for going near cubs in the wild or falling asleep in a puddle of bacon grease. lol. funny analogy. Thanks.

:-)

farm23
January 24, 2014, 10:56 AM
I have never used a shotgun on bears but if I did it would be a solid slug. I have been close to black bears many time and never felt threaten. Our local game warden says there has not be a serious attack since the 30's. I know there have been reported attacks in other states but they are rare so I do not see a reason to carry a shotgun in black bear country. All that said a brown bear is another matter and a shotgun or something substantial [a solid slug should get the job done] is a good idea. I have killed brown bears and it takes a lot of punch to get to a vital area. Bear spray is ok if the wind blowing in the right direction.

Fred Fuller
January 24, 2014, 11:24 AM
I recall the original BRI sabot slugs - they were hard enough to go through a 1970s car bumper. IIRC they had a tendency to break in half at the 'wasp waist' though.

I don't know of anything like the BRIs available today...

OrangePwrx9
January 24, 2014, 08:48 PM
Winchester bought out BRI, Fred. They're still available under the Winchester brand...at around $15 a 5-round box. For awhile, Winchester credited BRI on the box; not sure they still do.

I've kept track of them as I have a couple of rifled shotguns that'll shoot 1.5 MOA at 100 yards consistently with those things. However at $3.00 a round, I'm content with 3 shot groups.

eldon519
January 24, 2014, 08:58 PM
I think the main thing you are seeing is that the USFS testing wasn't in ballistic gelatin. It was a wet mix of silt and saw dust. I'd expect a test in gelatin probably would show a lot more penetration, but if you test a hard cast slug vs 000 in the same medium, I'd bet on the slug for penetration.

rodwha
January 24, 2014, 09:22 PM
Hardcast aside I'd still bet on the mass of the slug as long as it's not designed to expand on impact, which is obviously how Winchester designed the slug in the video.

Kuyong_Chuin
January 24, 2014, 09:54 PM
Was watching a show awhile back, don't remember the name of the show off hand, but they were in Alaska the officers had to take down a brown bear that had got into a populated area and was aggressive. The officer used his 12 gauge pump from his patrol car and loaded it with slugs to take down the bear.

rodwha
January 24, 2014, 10:19 PM
I've Googled about everything I can think of and still can't find a definitive response. At best I see they are them with Remington shotguns, but that doesn't mean they aren't loaded with buckshot :roll eyes:

And this guy seems to know his gun stuff to some degree as he had stated, other than the .410, shotguns gauges don't use a decimal point like a caliber.

Fred Fuller
January 24, 2014, 10:47 PM
I've kept track of them as I have a couple of rifled shotguns that'll shoot 1.5 MOA at 100 yards consistently with those things. However at $3.00 a round, I'm content with 3 shot groups.

What are the projectiles made from these days? How hard are they? The older ones were a really hard lead alloy ... http://www.thefreelibrary.com/BRI+12+gauge+.500+sabot+bullets.-a03286621

Kuyong_Chuin
January 24, 2014, 10:53 PM
I've Googled about everything I can think of and still can't find a definitive response. At best I see they are them with Remington shotguns, but that doesn't mean they aren't loaded with buckshot :roll eyes:

And this guy seems to know his gun stuff to some degree as he had stated, other than the .410, shotguns gauges don't use a decimal point like a caliber.
That is because the .410 is a caliber not a gauge. The 28, 20, 16, 12,10, 8, 6, & 4 are all gauges. The 4-8 gauges are old guns and they are rarely seen anymore. If I remember correctly using the 4 gauge as an example, it would take 4 lead balls the size of the bore to equal 1 lbs. The same goes for the other gauges, 12 bore size lead balls to equal 1 lbs for the 12 gauge and so forth. It is bore size lead ball times the amount of those balls to equal 1 lbs that determines the gauge. Someone else might be able to explain it better that I can but that is how I was told how it was figured.

goon
January 25, 2014, 03:08 AM
Yep, shotgun gauge is the number of lead balls that size to equal a pound.

plumberroy
January 25, 2014, 10:04 AM
One thing about the BRI sabots the where designed and will shoot decent in a cyl. bore smoothbore shotgun . I have shot 4" groups at 50 yards from my smoothbore slug gun with them.
So they may be a choice if you couldn't find brenneke's or the hard federal slugs.
Roy

artee
January 25, 2014, 11:35 AM
A few comments:
BrassFetcher's tests on the links above for 000 buck and a WINCHESTER Foster 1 oz slug were into 20% (NOT FBI spec 10%) ballistic gel. The penetration in 20% gel is far less. Do your research to discover the difference. It is NOT a 2:1 ratio.

Labs do this (and smart "home testers") so that there standard size block has a better chance of stopping/catching the projectile, then using the well established math to correct the results for the "standard". Also, as in the case of buck and slug, you can literally blast to smithereens a 'standard' size block. There isn't a block afterwards, just widely scattered chunks. You go with a HUGH non standard size block or increase the density

On BRI sabots. Chase my posts. The 1966 Gun Digest had a large 5+ page article on them. They were tested in MANY types of shotguns: doubles side by & stacked with many chokes NOT JUST cylinder to improved cylinder. In Single shots, bolts, pumps and autos. Again in all chokes including full. This was well before "rifled barrels" were a manufacturer option. They were made with smoothbores in mind. There was a zinc projectile and a lead projectile. The zinc had the same dimensions but due to metal density was 260 grain instead of "an ounce". The zinc were much faster and marketed for police use. My hunting experience and antidotes are mostly from after Winchester's acquisition of the product. They didn't seem to have the 'slap down' of a full bore slug. Winchester added a hollow point cavity to them. Nobody I've talked to has recovered one that looked like it expanded (as opposed to just mangling the nose a bit) or on pass throughs thought it had acted like an expanding bullet. No gaping exits. Performance often disappointing to these guys, with comments comparing it to the same as a .50 cal muzzleloader ball. Save your indignant defense of blackpowder. We had all generally been slug hunters that switched to our .45 and .50 patched ball rifles for GUN season due to their accuracy increase and "good enough" on whitetail power as the regs changed. The users of BRI/Win slugs I'd encountered almost to a man had gone to it with .50 patched ball experience behind them, hoping for an improvement and seeing less authority than a fullbore 12 ga slug, less accuracy than their "mountain rifles". Blackpowder with saboted .44 and .45 pistol bullets were still on the horizon. They continue to sell in southern Michigan and northern Indiana but I see no product difference from the 1990 versions.

OrangePwrx9
January 25, 2014, 01:48 PM
I've kept track of them as I have a couple of rifled shotguns that'll shoot 1.5 MOA at 100 yards consistently with those things. However at $3.00 a round, I'm content with 3 shot groups.

What are the projectiles made from these days? How hard are they? The older ones were a really hard lead alloy ... http://www.thefreelibrary.com/BRI+12+gauge+.500+sabot+bullets.-a03286621
I've no idea what they're made from or how hard they are these days, Fred. Only thing I can recall is that all the deer I've taken with them, but one, required a follow-up shot. They weren't particularly good killers. That might be due to excessive penetration (pass-through hits); might also be due to being significantly under bore size. The deer which was a one-shot kill was the most recent and taken with a Winchester-BRI.

I believe the long, hour-glass shaped projectile was meant to go unstable and tumble upon entering flesh, but that's just a guess. Maybe it was meant to but didn't always.

I've seen them for sale regularly at Wal-Mart. At the current price, they tend to stay on the shelves.

d2wing
January 25, 2014, 07:03 PM
Anyone who thinks buckshot is good for a charging bear or shooting to slow him down I needs to have his sign. You know the one, here's your sign (idiot). The internet is full f mythology and lies. When in doubt bigger and faster bullets.

rodwha
January 25, 2014, 11:31 PM
No doubt, and something I pointed out wasn't a good idea. He then went on a tirade of how I wasn't doing things legally, but mentioning al of the things he was suggesting. It was quite odd.

It began with someone saying:

"If you must carry a gun definitely think shotgun, or at least shot shells for a 357 or larger. Anything less is indeed dead weight unless you have a heart lung shot from a great distance but then you'd be hunting, not defending yourself. "

To which I replied it's never suggested to use shot shells. Then it went to the fellow who suggested staggering buck (000/0000) and slugs.

This guy also stated that Lewis and Clark's team were armed with .36 cal muzzleloaders! Seriously? They had 1 that I'm aware of. The rest were larger than .50 cal from what I can tell without really getting into it.

I began to give post links but there are just too many, but it was incredible how this guy began to try and turn it around on me as though I was the one recommending the things he stated.

I finally had to wave the white flag as it wasn't my intentions for it to become what it did, but I had a hard time allowing off the wall things being stated.

The guy they were slamming from the git go did seem a bit nutty with some of his responses and whatnot, but it still became a crazy thread!

Of course I'd assume the majority of these guys don't believe anyone should have a gun or hunt.

xXxplosive
January 26, 2014, 10:08 AM
12ga. = .72 Cal.

roklok
January 28, 2014, 01:14 AM
rodwa, I am not sure what you mean by not getting a definitive response. In my first response, post #2, I said that they use Brenneke slugs. The troopers use Remington 870s, with Brenneke slugs, and the last I knew, Federal flight control 00 buckshot. They do not recommend using the buckshot for bear purposes, Troopers are trained to use the Brennekes for possible bear problems. When the Troopers transitioned to the Federal Flite Control buckshot, they stopped using Vang-Comp barrels on the 870s as they had previously. This transition occurred around 2005-2006.

I have first hand knowledge of the above information. The wildlife troopers also use a variety of confiscated or seized long arms for official use, I have seen anything from Pre-64 Model 70s to Remington 600s to Marlin Guide guns utilized by Wildlife Troopers.

rodwha
January 28, 2014, 02:29 AM
By that I meant a specific load. I.e. this load by Remington or Winchester or such, something I can post a link to as proof this is what the experts use. Otherwise it leaves the door open for contention.

I know they use slugs as I've read it. I also know that no one would suggest buckshot for brown bears, and possibly not for black bears either.

Tom Held
January 28, 2014, 10:27 AM
The park ranger I know in Alaska carries a 454 Ruger Casull not a shotgun. Considers this his gun of last resort.

Torian
January 28, 2014, 10:42 AM
The park ranger I know in Alaska carries a 454 Ruger Casull not a shotgun. Considers this his gun of last resort.
Sidearms are a last resort / final contingency. A rifle or shotgun should always be the primary weapon system.

.454 is plenty powerful, but I'd only be reaching for it after I emptied 5, 3 in magnum slugs into that charging bear.

rodwha
January 28, 2014, 12:50 PM
For me, as this discussion there was about backpacking long distances, as well as being along the Appalachian Trail where there are only black bears, I'd really on bear spray with a .45 cal revolver as my final defensive weapon.

A long arm would be quite heavy along with my pack, and would possibly get hung up on my backpack when I needed it most. A pistol makes more sense to me as it weighs much less and is much handier.

Were I in brown bear territory I'd rethink my strategy a little as my pistol wouldn't be as powerful as I'd like.

DM~
January 28, 2014, 04:38 PM
+1
Shotguns are close range, so getting charged is a reality. A hard slug will go through bone. Knocking out a bears shoulder will discourage a continued charge.

Good luck with THAT thinking! I've shot/killed a few brown bears, seen a lot more shot too. I've seen a shoulder blown out and useless, and other than the bear looking like he stumbled, kept on like a freight train!

Anyway, here's an interesting buckshot chart,

http://www.fototime.com/5C187BAB0EF0FD4/standard.jpg

DM

200Apples
January 28, 2014, 06:04 PM
.
.45ACP and 00 buck FTW. Don't pwn any 9. (Most .45ACP JHP is 185 gr.; the ball stuff is 230)

So when the bear claw swipes a gnarly gash through the 3/4" ply sidewall of my teardrop trailer, I can squeeze off a few rounds from my 1911 while my wife positions my 870... is that what that chart is telling me?


:-)

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