[BeLikeTrey]

Well, I met a guy, training with my company to go and run a training center in Scotland. After reading the many threads on this board, I decided to mention to this guy, that while he was in the US, he should take advantage of one of our freedoms. I was extremely nervous in mentioning it, (as we yanks have a reputation as gun wielding "Wyatt Earps" over there) and cautiously mentioned we should visit the local range. I was really amazed to hear that he had never seen a firearm up close or touched one before.
He seemed very enthusiastic about it, so we went. I took his US training counterpart with us and I instructed him in proper safety and handling. I took a P22, S&W sigma, and my FEG PA63 in .380. He took really well to the fundamentals and was 10 ringing it at 10 yrds with the P22. In between shooting, we chatted about firearms and how, as a PROPERLY used tool, they can be an extremely effective defense. The guy was in total agreement and mentioned how as any other tool it could be mis-used. It was refreshing, as I was very afraid that he would share the demonizing view of firearms. He also mentioned that he was disappointed in firearm laws and how it nueters the lawful and empowers the lawless. He even made a statement as to the ease of obtaining firearms illegally over there. Hear that? It is common knowledge on how to get firearms for those who care not about the law. So to those of you out there who seek to legislate us into a mirror image of the UK.... We'll still have guns and gun crime. The only difference is we'll have to submit to criminals.

Anyway I'm off the soap box now. I just wanted to let you guys know, that the things we talk about are true on guns over there. They can be had by criminals still, and the lawful public is neutered. Hopefully I made an impression on this guy and he'll take his knowledge back to the UK. I was glad to dispel some myths he had about our "Dirty Harry" image and his given misconception on how rude and intolerant we are supposed to be. He told me he was refreshed by how nice everyone was to him here (he was told to expect rudeness) and how great our hospitality was. He told me he also was glad to have his chance to get a more accurate perception of firearms. And to the Rangemaster at Shooter's Choice, thanks for the help and words of wisdom to our visitor. Glad we could correct some ill gotten perceptions and strengthen the good ones...

Perception, how long has it been since guns were banned over there? A word of caution to all of us.... If guns were to ever get heavily legislated over here, as it is there, we (in my opinion) would have one generation to get our rights back on track. After that, a generation would exist with no memory of what a firearm was really like and what it's proper use is. Propoganda and criminals would be all that is left for subsequent generations to go on. Guns would then be viewed as they are there. What a legacy! There is no slippery slope. This is a cliff that we teeter on, and all that separates us from the bottom is one generation. Just my .02 cents (did I get on the soap box again?!?!) Take someone to the range with you! It may just pay off someday!

[TimRB]

Excellent job! I'm sure your friend will go back and enlighten at least a few others. Also, your "one generation" theory is interesting. I never thought about it that way, but you may be right. I did hear one gun-grabber on TV say that he thought gun control would have to be a multi-generation effort.

Tim

[XLMiguel]

:cool:

One brick at a time, good on ya!

[Tamara]

Back when Marko and I were roommates, a standard itinerary item for visitors from foreign parts was a trip to the local range to rent an MP-5.

"Psst! Kid! Here ya go; first dose is free!" ;) :D

[twoblink]

I talked guns with my friend from Belgium. He thinks it's a great idea to own guns to protect yourself. He can't stand the "Socialistic Slim Rhetoric" that is smashed into your brains like what use to happen to your PBJ Sandwich when you found it on the bottom of your bookbag..

[SodiumBenzoate]

how long has it been since guns were banned over there?

The total handgun ban was in 1996. They can still buy single or double barrel shotguns, but anything that is a firearm and not one of those is very hard to get permission for. I believe all centerfire rifles are banned, also.

[Baba Louie]

The total handgun ban was in 1996. Possession of a handgun which has a barrel less than 30 centimetres in length or is less than 60 centimetres in length overall is prohibited. http://www.wfsa.net/Intl_Leg/Leg_UK.htm
Might be an old link... but I thought that was the reasoning behind Taurus and S&W's 12" barrelled wonders (or maybe S&W isn't doing that) along with a wrist support. Makes for some awkward holstering I bet... but then again, that's not sporting old chap, wild west, red indians and all, eh what?
Somewhere I ran into some photos of those long buntline wrist rocket type of revolvers. Gotta do a search.
Sure would be nice to really know what the laws really are over there... not that it'd do me any good to know other than just knowing when & where we'll need to cut off similar laws at the knees before they get legs, as it were.

[LAR-15]

Bolt action rifles are still legal for "deer stalking".

Interesting too is that collectors can own actual grenade launchers or so I've been told. Don't think they can own the grenades though.:rolleyes:

[PATH]

When my cousin comes over from the UK I always take him to the range. He really enjoys himself.

[WonderNine]

Bolt action rifles are still legal for "deer stalking".

What? I thought everything was banned over their except for .22's...

They're even working on BB gun and toy gun legislation....

[LAR-15]

Saw a guy on tv hunting red deer in Scotland with a bolt action centefire rifle of some type.

[Standing Wolf]

Let's hope freedom is contagious!

[Quartus]

The usual trend is the other way, I'm afraid.


Liberty takes courage and work. Did someone say something about eternal vigilance?


Liberty is not for the faint of heart nor for the lazy.

[sterling180]

Hopefully something good will come out of the 1997 Firarms Ammendment Act,(No2)which prohibited handguns,as the Conservatie government has promised to abolish it,so that training of small-caliber pistols for the Olympics,is possible over here,but the antis from the Gun-Control Network will kick up a big stink though.A quote from one person:"What do you want,medals or murder'.

The 1988 firearm Ammendment Act will not be abolished at all I don't think.This act effectively banned centrefire semi-auto&pump-action rifles,plus riot-guns,with skeletonised-buttstocks&pistol-grip only shotguns,like the Ithaca Stakeout &Mossberg Cruiser.Though its exempt in Northern Ireland&yet that country was more unstable than the UK mainland.

[gkdir]

If ya don't think the "one generation" concept has any basis--ask your twelve year old what his opinion is of "black and white TV's."

[Nico Testosteros]

When my uncle and his wife were visiting from the UK, a buddy and I took them to the range.
My friend took his M4 and XDsc and I took my Model 317 kit gun and my Model 681.
My uncle had a great time! He is ex RAF and shot a High Power and Sterling as a cadet. He is keen on skeet shooting as well and didn't have much good to say about the near total ban on firearms over there.

[DammitBoy]

I took a college kid from the Netherlands shooting at an indoor range. He was of the typical mindset that guns are evil and americans are pistol toting crazy maniacs.

He had a blast shooting seven different pistols I brought to the range - his first time ever shooting. He seemed impressed with the safety precautions employed at the range and the information I gave him about the background of each type of firearm we shot.

Afterwards he said he was disappointed that I didn't live up to his impression of being a redneck hillbilly John Wayne gun nut.

[AirForceShooter]

My neighbor is from the UK.
He once noticed there is a gun safe in my office and asked if I had guns.

Told him yes and was he interested. He says yes.
I pulled out a Hi-Power for him to hold.
You would have thought I had handed him a burning branding iron.
Poor man just about freaked.

Strange

AFS

[Nushif]

I took a guy from france to the quarry with a shotgun and some revolvers and he said it was one of the things he's been wanting to do during his time here, as well.

I think most people who come here and aren't used to guns could use a good range trip just to complete their picture of our lifestyle.

[Calibre44]

WonderNine wrote: What? I thought everything was banned over their except for .22's...


It’s a common misconception. Simplistically speaking all handguns are banned except Long Barrelled Revolvers (LBR in .357 and .44 mag and .22) and muzzle-loading pistols.

Semi-auto centrefire guns are banned except .22 rimfire. You can still own traditional semi-autos like AK47, AR15 etc but they must have the semi auto-function disabled and reconfigured to a straight-pull arrangement whereby you have to manually pull back the bolt to eject and reload a shell from the mag.

Everything else is okay from .17 to .50 cal so long as you can show good reason and have secure storage (gunsafe). Typically good reason would be target shooting, hunting and pest control. There are no restrictions on mag size. All guns except air guns have to be held on a Firearms Licence (FAC), which are issued by the local Police Force.

You can own as many shotguns as you like including pump and semi but there is a mag restriction placed on these. Shotguns require a Shotgun Licence, which again, are issued by the local Police Force.

The main difference between a Shotgun Cert and a Firearms Cert is that you have to show the Police just cause for owning a firearm (ie hunting, target shooting etc) whereas the Police have to prove that you aren’t fit to own a shotgun - so as long as you have safe storage most people can own one. Once you have a shotgun certificate however, you can buy as many as you like in all gauges, configurations and actions.

Both certs have to be renewed after 5 years.

Nothing like your freedoms but that’s excessive gun control for you

[Bobarino]

ya'll realize that this thread is 6 years old, right?

[DammitBoy]

Not any more, right?

[Zoogster]

If guns were to ever get heavily legislated over here, as it is there, we (in my opinion) would have one generation to get our rights back on track. After that, a generation would exist with no memory of what a firearm was really like and what it's proper use is. Propoganda and criminals would be all that is left for subsequent generations to go on. Guns would then be viewed as they are there. What a legacy! There is no slippery slope. This is a cliff that we teeter on, and all that separates us from the bottom is one generation.

I have said something similar before and used current gun laws which have been in place 10-20 years as an example. Once a generation is raised with something having always been in place since they could remember, that is normal.
That generation can then not imagine having that restriction removed, even if they agree with still existing freedoms.
Our Federal Assault Weapon Ban almost fell into this same lost forever pool.
Only because it sunset (and fortunately in 2004 when certain people were in power) did it avoid becoming permanent, normal, and with even many gun owners shocked anyone would advocate removing it.
It was scheduled to be renewed permanently, and would have been if the other party had been in power at the time.

Towards the end, in 2003, even a significant majority of gun owners supported the AWB. By 2013 had it not sunset I imagine most would have forever supported that restriction.
We need only look to the NFA, and the GCA, and numerous smaller things which have become permanent to see the same thing.
Or look to far more nations than just the UK.
Once they successfully get a restriction placed at the national level for more than a generation the next generation has known nothing different, and is fearful of the results of removing the restriction.


Politicians are very aware of this, and world leaders have acted in Europe to prevent a gun friendly culture:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/29/world/europe/29iht-union.4.8532843.html?_r=1

European Union legislators Thursday overwhelmingly backed tough new gun control rules they said they hoped would prevent Europe from becoming a gun-friendly culture like the United States.


European legislators of all political stripes said the new rules were essential to prevent Europe from embracing the gun culture of the United States, where the right to bear arms is written in the Constitution.


The legislation - which was backed by 588 of the European Parliament's 785 members - still must be approved by national governments, which will have until 2010 to translate it into national law.

Governments in countries with strong hunting lobbies could still face stiff resistance.

All they have to defend their rights are FUDDS! Groups who may defend a right to self defense, or resistance to tyranny, or anything else are not even feared as a legal obstacle.
Just some hunting groups.
Imagine what rights you would have if the only person defending your rights was Zumbo.

Some gun owners cannot even store firearms at home, and leave them at a gun club they must belong to for X number of months to even buy certain types of firearms to use only at the club.




Once a gun ban is in place, or restrictions that equate to one for most people, there is only about 10 years to get it reversed or it becomes permanent.
Like I said, the AWB was basically permanent at the point it was overturned, had the other party been in power in 2004 then it would have been renewed as permanent (which was the plan) and been as constant as the GCA or NFA. (Even many of the Republicans in power at the time were not going to go against it, they just did not want to vote for it and suffer the wrath of some of their constituents. Even G.W. Bush said he would sign it if it made it to his desk. So it simply faded away because everything lined up perfectly.)
However within just a few years of being overturned the types of firearms targeted by the AWB were once again mainstream, and people cannot imagine losing them now.
Just over 10 years, it's all it takes for the sheep to bleat approval, even the gun owning sheep.
In 10 years the current teenagers will be in their 20s, having only known the legislation in place in the meantime, and considering it the norm. Combine that one age bracket with the antis of all age brackets and you can often get a majority, because population trends look like a pyramid. There is typically far more of the newest generation.
Within 20 years it is virtually written in stone.
Just look at how many gun owners today will strongly support the restrictions of the GCA, or even the Brady Bill.


What it proves to me is that in reality people are pretty easy to rule. Even if the population disagrees with a rule you impose, they will agree in time. They just need a decade or two.
Tyranny is actually pretty easy. You just cannot keep passing constantly unpopular rules, and must let the peasants adjust and come to see the previous ones you imposed against their will as normal first.
A two party system where neither typically undoes what the other puts in place has a similar result.
The people just vote one out of power when they get angry with it and elect the one they were angry with before that back to power, and they continue where they left off.
The cycle continues, and each side can generally continue to build on what it did last time, which by then the population has come to view as normal, and is no longer angry about.

[heviarti]

I was always told in England shotguns could only be owned by members of a hunting club with a preserve, and must be stored at same.

I'm in Idaho and volunteering to take people from gun-restricted nations shooting. If they're lucky they'll show when IAWCA has one of their fun shoots.

[Calibre44]

Heviarti wrote: I was always told in England shotguns could only be owned by members of a hunting club with a preserve, and must be stored at same.

Not true, the conditions for owning a shotgun are different than those for owning centrefire rifles, long barrelled pistols and muzzle-loading pistols/rifles.

The main difference is that you have to show the Police just cause for owning a firearm (ie hunting, target shooting etc) whereas the Police have to prove that you aren’t fit to own a shotgun - so as long as you have safe storage (gun-safe) most people can own one.

[metalman8600]

As far as I know, European nations don't even have border guards or a military. The creation of the EU with their twisted logic on how to run a place really messed Europe up. They even control how people think.

It is sad to know that a lot of the firearms we buy were designed and produced in Europe, yet they can't even buy them.

It's like having the Corvette made for export only.

[wnycollector]

Every year when the exchange students come from Germany to visit their "sister" city in the US, I take a VERY willing group of chaperons and fellow teachers to the range and let them shoot a bunch of my guns. Word has spread among the teaching community in their city that one of the highlights is a trip to the US is a evening at the range!

One comment that is a constant with every groups is the wide variety of guns and ammo available to us here in the US. The last trip we shot rifles, shotguns and pistols from, India, Finland, Russia, Czechoslovakia, Serbia, Germany, Poland and of course the US. The ammo we fed our guns with came from USA, Russia, Bulgaria, Romania and Poland.

[Art Eatman]

Between necrothreadia and politics, about the only comment is "Arrrggggghhhhh!"