[mountain_cowboy]

Look at these pictures. The story behind them can be found at Drudgereport.com. Several Americans were killed in a bomb attack in Fallujah. The citizens of the city pulled the bodies out, drug them down the street, and hung them up on a bridge.

I try to be reasonable and respect the civilians in the US's conflicts, but I'm finished feeling sorry for the Iraqi's, or any of the other Arab citizens. This is the work of savages. I know that's a horrible way to be, but I'm judging by their actions. The phrase, "Kill 'em all, let God sort'em out," comes to mind. I may feel differently later, but right now, I'm too p*&&ed off.

http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news/?p=Fallujah&ei=UTF-8&=&c=news_photos

Mods, please move to wherever you feel is appropriate.

[Preacherman]

Moving to Legal & Political.

[Sean Smith]

This is a straightforward issue to deal with. Identify the people cheering in the photos, hunt them down, and slit their throats while they are sleeping.

And here I thought Legal & Political was for the hard questions. ;)

[Mac Attack]

I support our President and our Armed Servicemen and Women who are in Iraq. But when sh*t like this happens it really pisses me off :banghead:and makes me question 'Why the F**k are we trying to help these people if they don't want us there?" :cuss: I know that the people who are causing the problems are small when compared to the rest of the population but frankly if this is the way they want to act then I say Screw Them :fire: and Let's bring our Servicemen and Women home!

Let the Iraqi people govern themselves and the next time they start complaining about inhumane treatment from a cruel dictator we can just turn a blind eye and say 'We told you so!" :neener: :mad: :evil:

Mac

[Waitone]

Somolia Parte Deux

Right out of Osama B. Laden's playbook. Create a photo-op and let American press do what it does so well. Last time the play was run the CinC cut and run.

New CinC second time around. We will see what happens.

Hey, Dubya! You watchin', Buddy? This is a direct challenge to you.

[Declaration Day]

Words cannot express how angry I feel about those photos, whether the victims are Americans or not. Only savages would do such a thing.

[Tamara]

I'm beginning to think that the last person to have a coherent Middle Eastern policy was Vespasian. :scrutiny:

[longeyes]

Back before life became one great photo-op manipulated by either greed- or agenda-driven media entities situations like these were dealt with as they must be dealt with.

[Eskimo Jim]

Tamara,
I think that I'd have to agree with you although I'm not familiar with Vespasian. If I'm on the right track then Vespasian would have dealth harshly with harsh conditions or harsh actions?

Sean, too time consuming for my taste I'm afraid. Sounds to me a MOAB moment is in order.

The Iranians did this in 1979 and the Somalis did this during the 1990s. The result was that the US didn't send troops into Iran and withdrew our interestes in Iran and the US pulled out of Somalia as well. Both events occured while a Democratic president was at the helm. Hmmmm???

I suppose this raises the question, can a peaceful democracy successfully replace a blood thirsty tyrant when the tryant's people utilize the same tactics as the tyrant?

-Jim

[Antlurz]

Earlier, the comment was made to "Bring Them Home". I think that would be a bad mistake. I think this it far different than the common feeling across Iraq, and should be treated completely differently than in other parts of the country.

Treat the ones who respect us with respect. Treat THESE clowns with extreme prejudice. The current climate in Iraq is NOT "one size fits all" throught the country. They haven't had the benefit of 24/7 mass communictaion, so that pockets of their citizens see things far differently from one another, as opposed to the way things run when they have wall to wall "news" like we are exposed to here.

Ron

[longeyes]

Vespasian had the right idea: an iron fist combined with the introduction of public urinals.:D

[tiberius]

What bunch of pigs! I only hope that they will be dealt with appropriately. I am also glad that we do not have the kind of President who would pull out of an operation because of something like this.

[Joe Demko]

Why does everybody seem more upset by corpse mutilation than by the killings?

[Eskimo Jim]

Golgo,
I'm appalled by the killings of unarmed civilians. I'm also appalled by the killing of American soldiers through terrorism and guerillas.

I am appalled at the descretion of dead bodies because that cuts across political, social and economic lines. Every culture has shown some sort of respect towards the deceased throw burying, entombment, cremation etc. To brutally treat a corpse is repugnant to all civilized people.


-Jim

[longeyes]

Why does everybody seem more upset by corpse mutilation than by the killings?

I'm not sure they are. But the comportment underscores the difference between civilized values, hard won over the centuries, and tribal barbarism. This is a distinction--that some cultures are less "functional" than others, that reason is better than unreason--that is considered too un-pc to take note of in these increasingly decadent times.

[hapafish]

Vespasian's sons Titus and Domitian (also Flavian Emperors) would have also done a good job. But I think the people who had the best Mideast policy initiatives were, bar none, the Mongols.

Meanwhile, that blight on the human landscape known as Fallujah continues to exist. :barf:

[feedthehogs]

Wrong as it is, these along with many other nations still live as though they were still back in the 12th century. They really have not developed much beyond those savage instincts that most of us have learned to control, not outgrown.

If anyone has spend anytime in the middle east they will know what I am talking about.

You cannot deal with these types of people with diplomacy, they do not understand it.

You either have to just leave them alone to their own corrupt dictator governments or if you decide to intrude upon them then you have to go in with the mentality of; if they kill one of ours, we kill a thousand of theirs.

Thats what they understand. That's why these police actions never work.

Either surrender or pull off the gloves and get down in the dirt and get busy.

[longeyes]

It goes way, way back: you don't desecrate the dead. Achilles got it in the heel for that. And that was a while ago...

[Lone_Gunman]

Remember most of the Iraqis are our friends and are glad we are there, or so we are told.

I know I would love to have an occupying army in my country, wouldn't you?

[Eskimo Jim]

Lone,
If a tyrant was running my country and denied me basic human rights, then I'd be glad that a foreign army invaded my country and was fixing things.

If the master of my house was abusing me, you can sure bet that I'd be happy to see my neighbors come in and take the tyrant out, then stick around to help me back on my feet again.

-Jim

[Heraclitus]

I'm beginning to think that the last person to have a coherent Middle Eastern policy was Vespasian.LOL. Good post! However, it seems to me that his mania carried over to the Flavian amphitheatre. As an intern, you'd certainly need to win the hearts of the crowd -- before they literally got yours on the turn of a thumb.

mountain_cowboy,

those pictures were enough to ruin my day. I hope the perpetators of such barbarism get their just reward -- in a sulphurous jacuzzi! :mad:





~ Heraclitus

[fix]

Waitone nailed it.

[Lone_Gunman]

Eskimo Jim,

If they are so glad we are there why is stuff like this happening?

[only1asterisk]

Golgo-13,

You asked why people are more upset with the descretion than by the killing. The Americans in those pictures chose to go to Iraq. They either volunteered or had the right to refuse. They knew the risk and took it. Everyone dies. I feel for their families.

No person is so vile that they deserve to be mistreated after they are dead. No OBL, not Bill Clinton and certainly not some young driller from west Texas or pipefitter from Arkansas that needed the money to put his kids through school. To dance and sing you smash corpses with a shovel, is to invite your own destruction as far as I'm concerned.

Either these people do not understand the restraint and care they have been treated with or they understand all to well that we lack the will to unleash upon them the terrible destruction that they deserve.



David

[pax]

My first reaction to the reactions on this thread was that we are all hypocrites.

Don't get me wrong, I'm as outraged and appalled as the rest of you.

But am I the only one who remembers the emails that were flying around awhile back, urging that all dead terrorists have their bodies desecrated with pig fat and be displayed to their families and friends in such a condition?

The impulse to do this sort of thing to the enemy exists in every one of us.

I am ashamed for the human race.

pax

It's silly to go on pretending that under the skin we are all brothers. The truth is more likely that under the skin we are all cannibals, assassins, traitors, liars, hypocrites, poltroons. -- Henry Miller

[warmi]

"Either these people do not understand the restraint and care they have been treated with or they understand all to well that we lack the will to unleash upon them the terrible destruction that they deserve."


They understand perfectly and that is why they are doing this sort of stuff.
They know we are "civilized" and will not lash out at them- this is precisely why I think the west is in danger of loosing the battle with islamozoids.
We cannot attempt to be civilized and fight a "clean" war against people who don't give a damn about any rules and will use every mean available to get at us.

The level of response after 9/11 was pathetically weak by the standards of previous generations and yet even that was enough to split the country into two opposing camps.
Our society is resembling Rome circa 200-300 AD... The legions are still strong, the barbarians aren't all that powerful but the spirit is already gone.

[Delmar]

Oh, so there's a few who want to send a message? Fine, lets import some hogs, make a pig stye, take all those who were cheering and lock them up in the stye. Slaughter the pigs and all but one or two of the savages. Let them go forth and spread the word.....

[ojibweindian]

Level the F***ING town. Kill every living being that cannot be immediately identified as an American, then raze the sh*t hole.

If GWB backs off because of this...

[tiberius]

But am I the only one who remembers the emails that were flying around awhile back, urging that all dead terrorists have their bodies desecrated with pig fat and be displayed to their families and friends in such a condition? I remember, but are you so sure its the same people making both comments? If so, they are hypocrites...not the whole community.

[Joe Demko]

Okay, let us assume for the sake of discussion that this was done by a few people. Do you suppose that the actions of that population will be influenced by us engaging in activities like ritual befoulment of the dead with pigs? Do you really think that will dissuade them from further activity? How do you think the muslim-population-at-large, who I am given to understand by some members of THR welcome our presence in Iraq, would react to the news (or even the claim) that we had done such a thing?
Finally, I am not an expert on Islam by any means, but I very strongly doubt that Muslims believe that they will be barred from Paradise because of actions beyond their control e.g. somebody smearing their corpse with hog blood. AFAIK, the major religions, to include Islam, hold you responsible for what you do, not what is done to you. Even if that is not the case, would it really take more than a "Don't worry, you shall still see Paradise!" from one of the local Imams to free them from that worry?

[Delmar]

It seemed to work when Pershing did this in the Phillipines.

[pax]

tiberius ~

My point was, the impulse exists in every one of us.

So far, Americans have shown ourselves able to restrain that dark impulse. But it may only be because we, as a whole, have a less chaotic social structure than the Iraqis do and (more importantly) because most of us simply do not have access to the enemy directly.

pax

The last quarter of a century of my life has been pretty constantly and faithfully devoted to the study of the human race -- that is to say, the study of myself, for, in my individual person, I am the entire human race compacted together. I have found that there is no ingredient of the race which I do not possess in either a small way or a large way. When it is small, as compared with the same ingredient in somebody else, there is still enough of it for all the purposes of examination. In my contacts with the species I find no one who possesses a quality which I do not possess. The shades of difference between other people and me serve to make variety and prevent monotony, but that is all; broadly speaking, we are all alike; and so by studying myself carefully and comparing myself with other people, and noting the divergences, I have been enabled to acquire a knowledge of the human race which I perceive is more accurate and more comprehensive than that which has been acquired and revealed by any other member of our species. As a result, my private and concealed opinion of myself is not of a complimentary sort. It follows that my estimate of the human race is the duplicate of my estimate of myself. -- Mark Twain

[Joe Demko]

Pershing and the pigs (http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pershing.htm) is, at best, unsubstantiated.

[ojibweindian]

The whole pig fat thing is simply too much work. I'd prefer to level the town and every living being in it.

[Joe Demko]

I'm honestly not trying to be inflammatory here, but I have a question or two for all you "kill'em all! level the town!" enthusiasts:
1. Are you willing to shoot a woman holding a baby while you look her in the face?
2. Are you willing to crush the baby's skull with your rifle's buttstock?
3. Are you willing to put the muzzle of a pistol behind an old man's ear and blow his brains out?

Unless you are willing to do these things with your own two hands and accept that you have done them, don't call for them to be done. It's easy to sit on our behinds here in safety and scream for blood when we aren't the ones who have to shed it. If you wouldn't do the things I've described, don't try to shift it onto some poor soldier or airman to do it for you with his tank, howitzer, or jet.

[longeyes]

No need to raze or annihilate. We just put everyone in the Sunni Triangle under a strong hypnotic on an open-ended prescription. :D

[clubsoda22]

Somolia Parte Deux

Exactly what i was thinking. Now bush will leave this mess for john kerry and kerry will catch the crap for it, just like daddy left somolia for clinton.

[Brian Dale]

pax, why be "ashamed for the human race?" I think that Henry Miller was wrong. I believe that we all have the capacity to become "cannibals, assassins, traitors, liars, hypocrites, poltroons"—but very few of us do. That record speaks well of humankind.

We knew when we invaded Iraq that the country had a lot of ordinary people being oppressed by vile, ruthless, torturing, thieving, murderous scum. The difference a year down the road is that most of the ordinary people in Iraq are now out from beneath the iron boot of Saddam and these goons. The vicious have gone to ground, and they no longer display their might in parades, but there was never any chance that the individuals who've spent their lives perpetrating atrocities would ever change.

This last-ditch atrocity, apparently committed to grab media attention in hopes of swaying the West, suggests that the perpetrators (1) have realized that they're about to lose, completely and for the rest of their lives, and (2) do not understand whom they're dealing with.

Stay the course.

[ojibweindian]

Golgo

Yes.

[Joe Demko]

ojibweindian :


Yes

Then why are you here? Why are you not there doing just those things?

[Daniel T]

ojibweindian :

Yes

That's great. Then you can spend all enernity comparing notes with them, since you'll end up being neighbors in the afterlife.

[ravinraven]

Anyone care to comment about the wonderful, peaceloving religion of Islam???

rr

[Brian Dale]

Side note: a bunch of the scum have now put their faces on camera. That's a good thing. Those photographs will be available to their countrymen when the time comes, and our people will have the photos and other evidence in the meantime. Hunt them down.

Eskimo Jim,I suppose this raises the question, can a peaceful democracy successfully replace a blood thirsty tyrant when the tryant's people utilize the same tactics as the tyrant?I expect that we'll find that the answer is "Yes."

[Heraclitus]

Stay the course.I second your motion, Happy Bob. Vile as humans are on the whole, we Americans have the best record by far.

The war is not against humans; it's against those whose actions make them inhumane.




...

[longeyes]

They look, from the tape, like the usual run of hyperkinetic teenage boys on a rampage. This is Crips and Bloods and 18th Street stuff. And requires the same solutions.

"1. Are you willing to shoot a woman holding a baby while you look her in the face?
2. Are you willing to crush the baby's skull with your rifle's buttstock?
3. Are you willing to put the muzzle of a pistol behind an old man's ear and blow his brains out?"

So I ask you:

Are you willing to let the woman with the baby blow herself up and kill you and your fellow citizens? Are you willing to let the baby grow up to kill your grandchildren? Are you willing to let the old man preach hatred to two or three generations who will do their best to destroy everything you believe in?

The moral and philosophical dilemmas were well presented by Dostoevsky and others. Either you believe in your values, in your cause, or you don't. Either you will do what's necessary to survive or you won't.

[Joe Demko]

Are you willing to let the woman with the baby blow herself up and kill you and your fellow citizens?

No. Neither am I willing to kill her on the basis that she might do such a thing in the future.

Are you willing to let the baby grow up to kill your grandchildren?
Neither am I willing to kill the baby on the basis of what he might grow up to be.

Are you willing to let the old man preach hatred to two or three generations who will do their best to destroy everything you believe in?
As an American, I am supposed to believe that we were all endowed by our creator with certain inalienable rights. One of these is the right to free speech. All of us. Not just those I like. Not just those I agree with. Not just those who had the incredible good judgement and common sense to choose to be born in the US.

Either you believe in your values, in your cause, or you don't. Either you will do what's necessary to survive or you won't.

If I discard my values in pursuit of a cause, then I am not displaying any real belief in those values.

[Brian Dale]

I hope this isn't too OT for the thread. It's from one of the photos in the Yahoo story linked by threadstarter mountain_cowboy. Page 3 of the photos has a picture of outgoing CG Swannack of the 82nd in Fallujah:

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040324/capt.bag10703241422.iraq__bag107.jpg

What's the AK-ish rifle that the soldier on the RH side of the picture is carrying? I see what looks like hair at the back of the helmet, too. Is this a female paratrooper?

Now back to your regularly-scheduled thread.

[El Rojo]

Thank you Golgo-13 for being a voice of reason and reality during these hard times. I too tire of the beating of the chests and obviously "low road" solutions we hear on here from time to time. I have found all of your points right on.

As bad as it is to see this happening to these bodies, we understand that we are in a difficult position here. You can't convince a people of your mission if you attempt to kill them all. Our country must remain on the high road. That doesn't mean we can't try and track down those responsible and arrest them or kill them. Leveling whole cities? Killing babies because they "might" kill my grandchildren. Come on, that is so absurd I don't even know why one would post such a thing. Try to use logic and reasoning here instead of shooting off to emotions. Isn't that one of the principles of our lives that we so often chide the liberal left as one of their weaknesses?

[longeyes]

Golgo and Golgoites everywhere:

Listen up, carefully. No one said kill 'em all. But your high-minded stance is, well, awfully self-serving, not to mention a tad naive. I'm not talking about suppositions. I suggest you pay attention to what your enemies are actually saying--about you, about yours, about your culture, about your nation. Then you will have a clearer, if less warm and coddly, view of what they have in mind for you. Let's not sentimentalize the horrors of what's really going on.

I suggest you try answering your own questions.

[fix]

Happy Bob,

Looks like a Polish troop to me.

[warmi]

Happy Bob:

Look at the arm badge. It looks like Polish flag and the gun he is holding looks like a standard Polish battle rifle "beryl".

http://hem.passagen.se/dadkri/Beryl.htm

[Cool Hand Luke 22:36]

clubsoda22:

Exactly what i was thinking. Now bush will leave this mess for john kerry and kerry will catch the crap for it, just like daddy left somolia for clinton.

The events leading up to Klintoon's removing US forces from Somalia occurred in August-September 1993.

You are saying that after being in office for 9 months, Klintoon's failure to anticipate the Al-Queda attack on Americans in Somalia was the fault of the preceeding Administration.

So then by your logic the failure to prevent the 9/11 attacks by Al-Queda in NYC must have been the fault of the Klintoon Admin and not G.W. Bush, who was only in office for 9 months when they occurred.

Of course, the important difference is in the response to the Al-Queda attacks. Contrast Klintoon's feckless non-response/retreat, which Bin Laden cited as encouraging him to plan future attacks on Americans, with G.W. Bush's policy of taking the fight to the terrorists and thereby discouraging future attacks.

[Drjones]

No! Wait!

We just need to understand them!

This was all just a misunderstanding!

Islam is a peaceful religion, remember???

Understanding and harmony will find a solution to all of this!

Just take a class on tolerance and another to learn about how peaceful islam really is. The compassionate understanding you will gain in those courses will help you to see that more violence is not the answer!!!

Hey, where's the UN? Let's see what they have to say about this!

[Joe Demko]

Longeyes:
No one said kill 'em all.

ojibweindian:
Level the F***ING town. Kill every living being that cannot be immediately identified as an American, then raze the sh*t hole.

feedthehogs:
then you have to go in with the mentality of; if they kill one of ours, we kill a thousand of theirs.

warmi:
We cannot attempt to be civilized and fight a "clean" war against people who don't give a damn about any rules

The facts would appear to contradict your statement, Longeyes. I think you already know my answers to my own questions. I even took the time to answer yours. What exactly is a "golgoite?"

[Sean Smith]

Exactly what i was thinking. Now bush will leave this mess for john kerry and kerry will catch the crap for it, just like daddy left somolia for clinton.

Or like Clinton left the Al-Qaeda mess for Bush?

Oops! :neener:

Of course, Clinton radically changed the mission of the troops that Bush #1 sent to Somalia, with disatrous results. So his problem was of his own making, not Bush #1's. Certainly, Clinton's utter gutlessness following the Battle of Mogadishu was not Bush #1's fault.

On the other hand, Clinton's near-total inaction against Al-Qaeda for 8 years does rather dwarf anything Bush #2 did or didn't do in the 8 months preceeding 9/11.

But you knew that, right? ;)

[Declaration Day]

Don't forget about all of the Iraqis who were on Saddam's payroll. Life was good for them- nice homes, nice cars, the best food, all at the expense of the impoverished citizens whom they terrorized. I am willing to bet that most of the Iraqis who don't want us around were among those ranks.

[Cosmoline]

Where's a thirty MM cannon when you need it?

[Paco]

Gentlemen, I too am shock as to what has happened to those people who got mutilated. I must say though, that some of what is being said here is very frightening and on-par with the same single-minded mentality and projected viciousness of our supposed "enemy". Lest we forget, the main religion of this country, Christianity has caused such blood flow as to make me ashamed of my religioin's heritage. Ofcourse, it's conveniently 'in the past' so we Americans don't allow ourselves to be weighted under that moral burden. The true enemy we fight here, is not a bunch of simple farmers, but the ideology spread by a few to infect the many. An attitude or idea can't be bombed or shot into oblivion. It must be undone or overshadowed by another greater ideology. If you think you can match hate for hate, violence for violence and expect that to solve the problem, then I would say to you that we have left the happy days of conventional warfare back in the dusty past. One can't force democracy-that is an act of hypocrasy. I would also like to point out: it's their country. Just because we think we have a right to go over and attack (and the US is divided deeply in this), that doesn't mean they should see eye to eye, especially when we've wipe out ALOT of the citizentry. Take the first gulf war, only 12 years ago, and this war and do the math. I don't like making it into a numbers game, but. Maybe they don't want democracy, maybe they're not ready, maybe it isn't the only way to run things. We, as a people, are very violent and the only thing that keeps us on the top is not moral superiority, but might. I love this country, am an avid gun owner (keep 'em at my father's in NJ), 2nd amend-god-given-right lover, I was in NYC when the planes struck and live here, and knew friends who died and all that stuff, but let's keep our wits about us. Golgo-13: right on. Stay strong for the rest of us.

-Paco

[Oleg Volk]

Islam is a peaceful religion, remember???

You might want to be just a little less sweeping in your sarcasm, given that this forum only exists through the efforts and the initiative of a Moslem man (who is, in addition, an American veteran, and has my respect and appreciation). Don't go off picking on a whole religion over the actions of a few nutcase adherents. All of the Moslems I know personally, support RKBA and other human rights, and none of them show a fraction of your intolerance for them.

[fix]

I agree Oleg, this is more of a regional problem than a religious one. Although I must admit, Derek and others like him do seem to be in the minority worldwide. My theory is simple, even though it is probably flawed. 90% of Muslims living in free countries seem to be good folks. So it is really an issue of the acceptance and appreciation of freedom that distinguishes "our" Muslims from the others.

[longeyes]

We, as a people, are very violent and the only thing that keeps us on the top is not moral superiority, but might.

I've heard this exact view from liberal friends. It's unfortunate that you don't see that our "moral superiority" resides in an adherence to reason, to trade, to law, to equity, to science, and to art that accounts for our dominance. As for our "might," that didn't come out of a vacuum; it arose from the particular attributes of our culture: efficient social organization, self-discipline, openness to ideas, technological prowess.

The next time you take your guns out, I suggest you consider where those weapons came from, how they came about, what they represent. Then think about the Second Amendment and ask yourself whether that qualifies as "moral superiority."

[Drjones]

Oleg and Derek:

Please accept my profuse and humble apologies if I have offended you.

I harbor absolutely no ill will towards islam nor any of its followers.

I tend to get a *little* concerned when followers of said religion declare jihad on me for no reason other than because I am not muslim.

That's when I tend to break out the big guns.

If its going to come down to a fight between islam and no islam, islam is going to lose.

That is how THEY are framing it, BTW, NOT me.

I make comments like what I made because, as fix pointed out, men like Derek and the ones that you know, Oleg, definitely seem to be in the minority.

[Oleg Volk]

I tend to get a *little* concerned when followers of said religion declare jihad on me for no reason other than because I am not muslim.


When someone declares a war on me or wages it sans declarations, their motivations are of little interest to me. Their location may be of interest for my arty buddies.

[longeyes]

It's a little more than a "regional problem." There's a reason why Orthodox Churches in Kosovo now have to be surrounded by barbed wire and NATO troops.

[El Rojo]

But your high-minded stance is, well, awfully self-serving, not to mention a tad naive. I'm not talking about suppositions. I suggest you pay attention to what your enemies are actually saying--about you, about yours, about your culture, about your nation. Then you will have a clearer, if less warm and coddly, view of what they have in mind for you. Let's not sentimentalize the horrors of what's really going on.
High minded stance? I think everyone in here is united in finding the people who are making these attacks and arresting them or if they resist, killing them. No one has proposed we give them a slap on the wrist and let things lie as they are. We are paying attention to what our enemies are saying about us. They don't like us. They never have and probably never will. However, what are the differences between what they have in mind for us and what many on this board have in mind for them? Absolutely nothing.

I am a firm believer in brutal, deadly violence. There should be no such thing as a fair fight. However, I am not in favor of killing whole cities. I am not in favor of slaughtering humans in pig guts and pig feces. I am not in favor of terrorizing civilians. There apears to be many "high roaders" on here that are mirroring the exact same attitudes our enemies have of us. So I have to ask what the difference is between the insurgents of Fallujah and many people here in the United States? It is the same hate, the same disrespect, and the same desire to kill and desecrate the norms of society. So much for the High Road.

[Paco]

El Rojo,

BINGO!

[Joe Demko]

Well said, El Rojo.

[Paco]

Longeyes,

Why must you stratify everything. Who cares if I'm a liberal, republican, muslim, or christian: all that should matter is that one is a part of this nation in a time of crisis. It's exactly that I understand the Constitution and the Bill of Rights that makes me quake at some of the commentary here. And besides, I'm being a patriot, as much as you or anyone, because I support and use the rights given to me by this country. Let's leave the supposed name-calling to the side, as though I should be deeply offended at being called a liberal. It's just a term, and a loose one at that. Some of the most gun-totin' folks I've met were Southern State liberals. So? What keeps me up at night is that we as a people are soooo divided in thought and now we are actually calling other Americans such things as communist or wanting to kick them out cause of religion. THIS will be the downfall of our way of life, not some bombs that kill people. Fear will do nicely. By the way, Shhhh... here's a secret: we aren't the only civilizied nation in the world, and there's no such thing as the 'most civilized' nation. That's between you and me.;)

-paco

[longeyes]

So I have to ask what the difference is between the insurgents of Fallujah and many people here in the United States?

No, El Rojo, you're exactly right, there is no difference between the crazed mobs of Fallujah and the people in this country who in self-defense would use the appropriate means to contain or destroy them. I'd say you and Paco have won today's bingo jackpot! Enjoy.

[Paco]

Therein lies the problem Longeyes: what is the 'appropriate' thing to do. I think all of us are in agreement that things need fixin'. By the way, believe it or not: I'm on the same side as you.

-American Paco

[longeyes]

Paco,

I'm not "stratifying" anything. I believe, as you do, in the Constitution and civil liberties. I also believe that we are at war and not just with "terror." Lines are being drawn over fundamental values, in this country and globally. My hope is our differences will be resolved peacefully, although, to be honest, I have my doubts.

No, we're not the only civilized nation, but if you value the right to keep and bear arms, with all that implies about free men in a free society, your list will be pretty damn short.

[longeyes]

Paco,

Well, we're on the same forum, that's a start. I don't question your motives or your patriotism. Let's not go there.

The appropriate thing to do, in my opinion, is to first get very clear about what it is that we believe in, here, in America, that is worth preserving, fighting for, and dying for. Which values, which principles, which beliefs. Then we can assess where and how those values are threatened, by whom, and what we need to do about it.

E pluribus unum.

[Paco]

You've set my mind at ease Longeyes. You said the 'P' word. That's all. I just wanted to know that you or any of the other "THR"'ers here are folk of reason that weight out all options and try to go with the best choice and reach it in a civil, efficient manner. I'm not being sarcastic either. A one track mind is a dangerous mind, sometimes for good, but mostly for bad when it comes to war. In my eyes, you are now three-dimensional again. I know my approval doesn't matter to you, but I thank you anyway. I don't care if anyone agrees here, all I care about is that Freedom loving Americans use reason, logic instead or instinct and emotion. There's a 'reason' we're above the animals. Peace.

-paco

[Sean Smith]

When someone declares a war on me or wages it sans declarations, their motivations are of little interest to me.

Actually, their motivations should be an object of great interest. We should make every effort to understand their underlying motives. But not so we can try to arrange a group hug with people who hate our guts. Rather, understanding your enemy allows you to defeat him more completely.

"Know the enemy and know yourself." - Sun Tzu

[longeyes]

Agree. THR is a great place. Ten thousand's a beginning. Remember Thermopylae.

Reason is the word. Our heritage is that of the Enlightenment. A good thing to remember.

[pax]

some of the people who posted after me, who really proved the point of my first post.

ojibweindian, feedthehogs, warmi ~ thanks for illustrating my point with such acidulous piquancy.

Golgo, Paco, Rojo ~ good job, guys. America needs voices such as yours.

DrJones ~ some of the folks calling for Americans to do the same, or worse, to Iraqi civilians, are self proclaimed Christians. Shall we blame their religion for their thick-headed inhumanity?

pax

Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. -- Nietzsche

[Eskimo Jim]

I agree with Rojo for the most part.

One important difference between our troops and the terrorists is that our troops are not intentionally waging war on civilians and non-combatants and desecrating them or humiliating them, either alive or dead.

The terrorists have and continue to wage war against civilians and non-combatants. Such tactics are cowardly and repugnant to civilized people.

The call for levelling the village where this appalling behaviour occured is merely matching one disgusting action with another. This not the right decision.

However, strong action must be taken against this sort of barbaric behaviour. What that strong actions is probably left to the generals and people with more information on the situation than me.

-Jim

[El Rojo]

No, El Rojo, you're exactly right, there is no difference between the crazed mobs of Fallujah and the people in this country who in self-defense would use the appropriate means to contain or destroy them. I'd say you and Paco have won today's bingo jackpot! Enjoy.I am having a really hard time following you. I think you are trying to refute something I have said, but your statements are so vague and unclear I am literally not understanding your point. Are you saying that the people of Fallujah are acting in self-defense? I guess I could go along with that. If some foreign army invaded my country, I might try to kill them too. So then the people of Fallujah are justified in killing American civilians who seek to opress them.

Then you make the comment that the people of Fallujah are using the appropriate means to contain and destroy them [I guess you mean Americans by them]. I guess here is where I disagree with you. Taking your enemies burnt bodies and dragging them through the streets, hanging them from highway bridges, and cutting them up with hoes and shovels does not appear to be a wise "containment" strategy to me. Yeah they got the destroy part right, but I don't see how the body dragging is furthering their cause for freedom.

However, you seem to think that this behavior is justified by the people of Fallujah and we need to counter it in our own way. So I guess we can look forward to killing some of the local Iraqi population here in America and then dragging their charred bodies through our streets, hanging them from highway bridges, and chopping them up with hand tools. Damn this is exciting! We are going to show those Iraqis who the top dog is. They will kneel at our feet and beg for forgiveness after we are done with them. All in the name of Democracy!

Any and all Iraqi people living in the Kern County area please contact me immediately so I can come committ barbaric acts against you! In this way you will end the war against your people early because they will realize after seeing me dragging your charred bodies through the streets of Bakersfield that I am a worthy opponent and the Iraqi people will lie down and cower at my feet. Oh wait, what is that you say? Oh, you are going to keep trying to kill me in the same way I kill you? Hmmm. That does throw a kink in my plans. I guess this war won't be over until one of us makes the other extinct. Oh well. FOR DEMOCRACY! Die Iraqi pigs! Jesus' Will Be Done!

Ok, back to reality. We need to establish some order in Iraq and then let them take care of themselves. However, to say we need to adopt the same strategy some of the Iraqis have towards Americans is absurd. That would be a great way to continue the process of killing and hate. If establishing order means going after these insurgents and killing them, that is fine by me. We do need to take care not to inflict harm upon innocent civilians and we must show that we seek to help their country, not occupy it and run it ourselves. This process is by no means easy and it will cost lives on both sides. I don't think we should pull out now, but I also think as soon as we can establish some peace, we ought to let them take care of themselves. The only problem is can our democratic style work in the Middle East? With only a bad example of leadership in the Iraqi people's memory do they have the ability to have effective representative government? I don't know. I do know we don't need to have a 51st state in Iraq. I also know we can't lead by example using the tactics that so many people on this board advocate. Yeah hunt down enemy soliders and capture or kill them. Drag their bodies through the streets or kill innocent civilians. Not a good example.

[Antlurz]

I am a firm believer in brutal, deadly violence. There should be no such thing as a fair fight. However, I am not in favor of killing whole cities. I am not in favor of slaughtering humans in pig guts and pig feces. I am not in favor of terrorizing civilians. There apears to be many "high roaders" on here that are mirroring the exact same attitudes our enemies have of us. So I have to ask what the difference is between the insurgents of Fallujah and many people here in the United States? It is the same hate, the same disrespect, and the same desire to kill and desecrate the norms of society. So much for the High Road.

El Rojo....

I hesitated putting this in quotes, but it was far enough back on the thread that I did it for clarity.

You ask what the difference is? Might it not be "who started what" as opposed to who is going to finish it? I say that similar or exact same actions may or may not be comparible depending on the stance and position of who started it.

And no, some things like the dragging of bodies and mutilating of bodies isn't justifiable, so don't mistake my meanings..;)

Ron

[Brian Dale]

Antlurz, I disagree that "who started it" matters. Both the ends and the means must be justifiable, to the populations of our country and theirs, under the principles that both we and the ordinary, decent people in their country hold.

[El Rojo]

So the Iraqi insurgents started dragging bodies through the streets and cutting up bodies with garden tools. I guess we are justified in being the last ones to drag bodies through the streets and cut up their bodies with garden tools. Again, is that taking the High Road?

I am not advocating doing nothing. I am advocating meeting these threats with the level of force necessary to stop these actions. If that requires deadly force, blow them away! The more firepower the better. However, that doesn't mean we drag them through the streets, that doesn't mean we put their bodies in pig feces, that doesn't mean acting as barbaric as they do, that doesn't mean we target civilians. We must set the example of just behavior.

And I don't blame the insurgents of Iraq for trying to kill Americans. They are doing what they think is right. They think we are an invading army. I don't take it personal. That doesn't mean I wouldn't kill some Iraqi that was going to try to kill me or my buddies. That just means I am not going to drag his body through the streets and cut him up afterwards.

And no, some things like the dragging of bodies and mutilating of bodies isn't justifiable, so don't mistake my meanings. ;)
You edited that in!!! Based on that comment, we are in agreement. Terrorists started the war. Yes, we can finish it. I am not advocating a do nothing approach. I fully understand that force is power and who ever uses more force is going to win when it comes to combat. On 9/11, the only way to take back those planes was with violent, deadly force. There comes a stage where talking will not help. However, there is a time for talking and diplomatic means to an end. You can't use force all of the time. As you stated, you most certainly can't do barbaric acts and still claim a higher moral authority or purpose.

[Rebel Gunman HK]

Can somebody tell me what these people were doing without military escort? Has any action been taken?

[warmi]

So the Iraqi insurgents started dragging bodies through the streets and cutting up bodies with garden tools. I guess we are justified in being the last ones to drag bodies through the streets and cut up their bodies with garden tools. Again, is that taking the High Road?

Nobody advocates senseless murder but there needs to be some sort of strong and meaningful response to this kind of savagery. Doing otherwise would simply send a wrong message . We need to understand that majority of these people couldn’t care less about our systems of laws and rules and would simply take a “strong statement of condemnation issued by the Allied Military Command” as sign of our weakness.

These teenagers jumping on the charred bodies are supposed to be their future leaders and people responsible for implementing democracy in that sorry place.
I do understand that , as far as Iraqi population goes, they are the minority but we cannot let this go unpunished for their actions will have a very negative influence on the rest of the population.

[fix]

Rebel,

The four civilian contractors were...ahem...not "contractors in the construction sense." I suspect (pending positive ID) they were better qualified to do the escorting than most military personnel. I also suspect that there will be some serious payback coming.

[Heraclitus]

Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. -- NietzscheAlas, a quote born from the same pen that wrote "A daring and ruler race is building itself up.... The aim should be to prepare [the road] for a particularly strong kind of man, most highly gifted in intellect and will. This man and the elite around him will become the 'lords of the earth'."

Couldn't he follow his own advice? :confused:

[warmi]

fix:

Well, it looks more and more like Mogadishu circa 1993.

[fix]

Except that these are civilian contractors who have the means to extract a little payback of their own.

[Waitone]

The US had better extract a cost for this behavior or there will be more and worse.

Isn't this the same area where the 82nd Airborne left and Marines entered? If so, I wonder if this is the Sunni's way of demonstrating whose big and bad. Wonder what the Marines have in mind.

Any how, my comment remains the same. A cost for that behavior better be imposed or we won't see the end of it.

[Paco]

why does 'strong'= kill? A strong response doesn't mean necessarily to kill. How about accessing the situation and figuring out what's the best thing to do. Iknow, I know: that might take more than a minute; too much time passes and the iron will cool. You said that they don't care about our laws and have no regard for us yet you would 'educate' them with a 'strong' response. Does anyone believe shooting the folks responsible and otherwise making examples of them will help? IMHO, I believe you don't understand partisanship and mind-set of an invaded people. I do believe those folks responsible should be brought to justice and given a FAIR trial because that is what our Constitution and Bill of Rights says: that would be American. Call me old-fashion. Call the Constitution and BoR outdated but we must go thru due-process, or run the risk of becoming exactly what we are fighting against.

-paco

p.s. Pax:thanks for the shout-out. I'm fighting for air here!

[warmi]

How about ending infrastructure and services repair in Fallujah for a time being ?
Something that will make locals realize they have a stake in this process and indiscriminate killing and sabotage does carry some consequences.
The problem is not the insurgency itself but the fact that people in this city seem to be supporting it.

[pax]

Heraclitus ~

"I shall never be ashamed of citing a bad author if the line is good." -- Montaigne. ;)

As for your parting question, obviously not. Most people can't.

pax

The only thing to do with advice is to give it away. It is never any use to oneself. -- Oscar Wilde

[Heraclitus]

pax,

Did you say most? I think I'd hate running into the few that do. :what:



:cool: Cheers,

~ Heraclitus

[Paco]

Warmi,

Your suggestion and assesment sound much more viable than the traditional 'strong' response. It gives the townsfolk a sense of empowerment and say in their future and that will do way more to do away with these crimes than any 'example-making'. Exhibit A: Vietnam. My uncle served three tours there as a lieutenant colonel and has some interesting viewpoints as to what is effective and what's not. Empowerment to the countryfolks at our hands has the potential to bridge the massive chasm of our different cultures: help them get themselves on their feet, and try even in the light of this atrocity, to be benevolent but firm. Ahh idealism! Good Luck US!

-paco

[hops]

Careful in your thirst for the blood of others - you may end up spilling more of your own instead.

Those who committed the barbaric acts need to be found and liquidated. However, we must not indescriminately 'punish' the general population even if it is just the Sunnis in that region, just as we should not condem an entire people or region for the barbaric acts of a few.

We must not make the same mistake the Soviets did in Afghanistan - which eventually turned the entire population against them - when it was not so in the begining. Cechzechlovakia '42 and Ukraine late '42 are other lessons in what not to do.

Otherwise - we might as well pack up and leave - or even better - we should not have gong in there in the first place. Taking the High Road is the more difficult path, but it is also the more rewarding path. Or as the bible says' you reap what you sow.'

[pax]

Antlurz ~

You ask what the difference is? Might it not be "who started what" as opposed to who is going to finish it?
If only it were that simple!

See, here's the problem: America is better than this. We don't drag hacked-up pieces of people's dead bodies through the streets, tearing off souvenir body parts. We don't desecrate dead bodies. That's not the way we do things.

There's a reason we don't do things that way, and it isn't because we don't sometimes feel like it (see the posts earlier in this thread for a good example). Everyone in the whole world sometimes has the urge (as Mencken pointed out) to hoist the black flag and commence slitting throats. So it is not a lack of desire.

Nor is it a lack of power. Hey, we're Americans. The world's superpower, right? We can do anything we durn well want to do, and the rest of the world really can't stop it. The best they can do is to whine about it over their cheese-tasting parties at UN conventions, and pass endless resolutions that have no power over us whatsoever. It isn't as though world opinion ever has or ever will hold us back from doing whatever we really want to do.

It isn't sheer wussiness, as some would like to claim. The fact is, back when Men Were Really Men, we still didn't do things like this. We didn't bash the brains out of other people's babies or urge our soldiers to do so on our behalf. We dropped bombs on civilian populations who were clustered around military objectives, but we followed it up with food, medical supplies, and humanitarian relief. We treated our prisoners of war with as much mercy and compassion as we were able, and sent them home healthier than they came to us. That is the proud record we share as Americans, a record few countries in the world can equal and none can better.

Of course, we messed up sometimes. Ask the villagers in Mai Lai what atrocities Americans are capable of! But those soldiers weren't lauded for their horrific acts; they were rightly condemned for going beyond the pale.

So why don't Americans do things like this? Why shouldn't we retaliate in kind? Why shouldn't we desecrate the bodies of the killers we kill? Why shouldn't we raze entire cities to pay for the actions of a few?

Because we're Americans, that's why not. Our heritage is worth more than that and our freedom is more precious than that. We're the Last Best Hope for human rights on this planet (who is doing better -- and which country inspires their attempts?). If the candle goes out here, it goes out everywhere, and for a long time to come.

It isn't enough to say, like a five year old caught giving his brother a bloody nose, "He started it!" It doesn't matter who started it. We're civilized, and we'll stay that way. We're human beings, not animals, and we won't fight like animals. We'll fight like men, and die like men if we must. But we won't stoop to that level.

So hunt down and kill the perpetrators. Wipe them out without mercy, without pity, and without remorse. But do not desecrate their bodies, do not slay their children, do not rape their women or pillage their homes. This isn't for their sake, but for ours. Because we're better than that. We're Americans, and we'll live and die by what America stands for.

pax

And man, whose heav’n-erected face
The smiles of love adorn,—
Man’s inhumanity to man
Makes countless thousands mourn! -- Robert Burns

[Nightfall]

Hunt down those who were involved with this. Kill them in their sleep. When the town wakes up to find the perpetrators of this act lying in a pool of their own blood, I'm sure the message will be clear to any with thoughts of a personal jihad.

Holding an entire town responsible for the acts of a minority of radical individuals would be no more right than denying me my RKBA because some criminal shot somebody in my own town.

[PATH]

Great discussion! My solution is simple. Kill those involved in the slaying of the Americans. Plain and simple eloquent message. Don't get angry or spew venom. Just find them and kill them. \

Burying cowards in pig fat is a waste of good pig fat! By the by I have relatives who are Muslims. Remember to take people on a person by person basis! My .02 cents!

[Sean Smith]

DrJones ~ some of the folks calling for Americans to do the same, or worse, to Iraqi civilians, are self proclaimed Christians. Shall we blame their religion for their thick-headed inhumanity?

Obvious counter:

Our "thick-headed inhumanity" consists of a few people getting mad and making some posts on this forum that sound mean, and other people condeming them for it.

Their "thick-headed inhumanity" consists of a bunch of people actually murdering people and mutilating their bodies, and a bunch of other people cheering them on.

Quite a gulf, eh? ;)

EDITED TO ADD: And for the sake of clarity, I consider the assorted ranting about mass retaliations pretty ridiculous. Killing people who don't need killing is counter-productive, ethics notwithstanding. The Nazis were great at killing lots of people, but bad at winning.

[Drjones]

Thanks, Sean. :)

[pax]

Sean ~
Their "thick-headed inhumanity" consists of a bunch of people actually murdering people and mutilating their bodies, and a bunch of other people cheering them on.
You cite "cheering them on" as being nearly as reprehensible as the disgusting act itself.

Is it, or isn't it?

pax

So let us be judgmental, for Heaven's sake! That equipment up between your ears, which was provided you by God, is there to make judgments. There are such things as good and evil. Think about them. There are such things as right and wrong. Think about them. If you do not make judgments about such matters, you are a moral blob, fit only for jobs which are better handled by robots. -- Jeff Cooper

[rock jock]

But am I the only one who remembers the emails that were flying around awhile back, urging that all dead terrorists have their bodies desecrated with pig fat and be displayed to their families and friends in such a condition?
I certainly never advocated desecrating their dead bodies.








Afterall, a nuke doesn't leave much of a body to desecrate in the first place.:D

[hapafish]

Against my better judgement I'm tossing my pennies into this thread.

Whilst going to international school overseas, I grew up reading about Averroes and Avicenna, Persian poetry and the battlefield courage of Saladin. I had Singaporean, Malay, and Pakistani friends. Over curry we'd discuss with my mostly European classmates the merits of cricket, the latest F1 stats, and compare our religions. The fact that I was Buddhist or my classmates Christian did not bring tumult or hate into our relatively quiet lives.

After I joined the service, I kept an evenhanded view of the American perspective vis-a-vis the Muslim perspective. After all, it is far too easy to descend into the realm of perjoratives and uninformed hatred. Being mindful of the Japanese-American experience of forced incarceration during the Second World War, I kept quiet. There is absolutely no reason to condemn an entire civilization for the errors of a few, and certainly no reason to brutalize anyone solely on the grounds of race or religion. This is what I thought, even after 9/11.

After crossing the Kuwaiti frontier in March 2003 and spending my first year in Iraq, I can say that everything I learned in my life before that was brought low. The brutality of these people against each other, even in the face of our onslaught, was sickening. The complete lack of honor amongst the Iraqi fighting men, the orgy of looting and destruction the Iraqi people visited upon their own schools, hospitals, and critical infrastructure made me despise them. I expected better. My grandfather's generation in Japan, would never have broken fighting the Americans, nor visited such chaos upon their homeland.

I expected an honorable enemy. For a year I waited for an enemy that would fight with true determination, like that of the NVA my uncles faced in Vietnam. None were forthcoming. So I went out and talked to the locals. Not that I had much problem in doing so, as the people all thought I was a Japanese soldier on loan from the UN (!) most of the time and had no difficulty in opening up, even with my sparse knowledge of the local language.

The same stories came out, over and over: How they wanted to be rich like the Japanese, how they wanted to rebuild, but how hopeless it seemed and how they lamented their own lack of patience. And then the undercurrents came out. The cult of the strongman, power won through guns and drugs, the feuding, the tacit acceptance of violence as the arbiter of every dispute. You don't like your neighbor? Throw a grenade at his sheep. You beat your wife so ditches you for another guy? Fire an RPG at her wedding. Bored and have nothing better to do? Get really drunk and fire an AK at your nieghbor's house. All of that happened on my watch, and more.

I came to the following conclusion: This is a thousand year war. The chasm between the West and the Mideast is over a millennia old. The savagery of the way of life in Iraq today is not going to vanish thanks to some cosmetic diktat. Only difference is that the extremists have enough military technology and the Western nations are so open that for them to strike us is like trying to tag a parked UPS truck with a snowball at five yards or less. Whoever thought that Iraq was going to submit like Germany or Japan was nuts to begin with. One was a Western nation to begin with, the other had a martial tradition that encapsuled rational submission to victors.

We may never, ever see the Iraqis break the cycle of violence within our lifetimes. The way I see it, the only we do now is by being there, we keep as many of the bad guys tied up over there as humanly possible. The more insurgents we clip, that's once less terrorist who is going to come stateside. After 9/11, it should be clear that they're going to keep on coming, no matter what. For me, keeping them away from American shores is good enough. I would rather fight the Iraqi insurgents and their foreign mujahid allies over there, not at home.

I would like to talk about values, and culture, and civilization at depth, but when I think of what it was like over there I can't even begin to say any more without feeling like an idiot. Somehow, somewhere, this all became us vs them, a fight to the death, where only one civilization and its way of life is going to walk away from it. Somehow, I don't think that there's any urgency in the general public here stateside about it.

That doesn't matter to me. All I want to do is go back to theater. And if I get to smoke a few insurgents, like the ones that we're talking about in this thread, I'll consider it all worth the effort.

Peace out.

[Drjones]

Thank you for your serivce, sir hapafish, and thank you also for the very valuable insight.

[pax]

hapafish ~

Thanks for posting that. And thank you for serving.

pax

The three greatest scourges of the 20th century Nazism, Japanese militarism, and Soviet Communism were defeated through war or continued military resistance. More were killed by Hitler, Stalin, and Mao outside of combat than died in World Wars I and II. War, as Sherman said, is all hell, but as Heraclitus admitted it is also "the father of us all." Wickedness whether chattel slavery, the gas chambers, or concentration camps has rarely passed quietly into the night on its own. The present evil isn't going to, either. -- Victor David Hanson

[hapafish]

Drjones, thank you for the compliment, but I'm not an officer. I'm an enlisted man ... that's what I say to everyone who calls me "sir." Old habits die hard.

Thanks to everyone over here at THR who makes it worth being back stateside.

[Russ]

We could always bring back the good old days of carpet bombing population centers. Frankly, if the mnilitant Islamists want to act like this, they deserve it. After all, they will all go to paradise anyway. Why prolong the journey?

[feedthehogs]

Pax,

You’re trying to think and reason in conventional wisdom, which does not apply here.

These are people who are willing to use men, women and children to be human bombs that kill.

Its easy to sit back with a pacifist view if you never saw one of your buddies try and give some candy to a kid to make them feel good and that kid releases the handle on a grenade and blows the both of them to bits because they were taught by an older person who was too cowardly to do the deed themselves that US soldiers are evil.

They are not fighting to win or to keep from being killed they are fighting to die and kill as many people with them.

[Brian Dale]

Thank You for posting, hapafish, but more than that, Thank You for serving. Please permit one you're protecting here, Stateside, to tell you that we're proud of you.

[R.H. Lee]

Paco said

I do believe those folks responsible should be brought to justice and given a FAIR trial because that is what our Constitution and Bill of Rights says: that would be American. Call me old-fashion. Call the Constitution and BoR outdated but we must go thru due-process, or run the risk of becoming exactly what we are fighting against

Paco, Paco, Paco.......

I'll give you a pass because you're still young and idealistic, BUT- you need to understand that the U.S. Constitution applies ONLY to U.S. citizens. How's that for a novel concept?!

The fact is WE ARE AT WAR WITH ISLAMIC TERRORISM. War is not handled by the criminal justice system. :rolleyes: The correct response to war is to meet your enemy with overwhelming force and destroy him. That means we kill them before they kill us. We cannot, and we should not, seek "permission slips" from the U.N., the 'World Court', or any other "intenational consensus" bureau before we move to defend ourselves.

We Americans are for the most part, fat, dumb, happy, and insulated from the brutal realities of the real evil that exists in this world. 9/11 is not the first time we have been caught napping, and it won't be the last. If our .gov continues to acquiesce to the appeasement crowd, the body count will resume on American soil. I'm wondering how many dead American civilians it will take for us to get the message. 10, 000? 50,000? 100,000? What is the number?

[pax]

feedthehogs,

Thing is, the current enemy is always the Most Evil Enemy The World Has Ever Seen.

I am no pacifist. While I had my doubts about this war before it started, I absolutely believe we should stay the course and do what needs to be done. There is no room for half-measures, for negotiated withdrawals, for nondecisive nonvictories. Now that we're there, we must win overwhelmingly.

Perhaps arguing that we should retain our humanity while doing so is too conventional or too conservative for folks who want to become just like the scum we are fighting. That's too bad. I don't want my soldiers to return to America as baby-killers or worse. I want them to return with their heads held high with American pride. I want them to bask in parades, cheering crowds, and all the worship a grateful nation can heap upon them.

And I want them to deserve it.

pax

Inhumanitas omni aetate molesta est. -- Cicero

[Sean Smith]

You cite "cheering them on" as being nearly as reprehensible as the disgusting act itself.

No. That's an assumption on your part. It is, however, more reprehensible than making disgruntled posts on THR. ;)

[Sean Smith]

I came to the following conclusion: This is a thousand year war. The chasm between the West and the Mideast is over a millennia old. The savagery of the way of life in Iraq today is not going to vanish thanks to some cosmetic diktat. Only difference is that the extremists have enough military technology and the Western nations are so open that for them to strike us is like trying to tag a parked UPS truck with a snowball at five yards or less. Whoever thought that Iraq was going to submit like Germany or Japan was nuts to begin with. One was a Western nation to begin with, the other had a martial tradition that encapsuled rational submission to victors.

We may never, ever see the Iraqis break the cycle of violence within our lifetimes. The way I see it, the only we do now is by being there, we keep as many of the bad guys tied up over there as humanly possible. The more insurgents we clip, that's once less terrorist who is going to come stateside. After 9/11, it should be clear that they're going to keep on coming, no matter what. For me, keeping them away from American shores is good enough. I would rather fight the Iraqi insurgents and their foreign mujahid allies over there, not at home.

I think that pretty much says it all. The failed societies that produce these terrorists are more backward, self-deluded and depraved that most Americans are even capable of grasping. Forget the terrorists for a second, and look at what they come from. Platitudes about how all cultures have equal merit and so forth are pure bull once you've seen them firsthand. That doesn't mean that American society and culture is the only right answer; quite the opposite. That just means that there are definitely wrong answers out there. The Middle East is full of them... abject failures passing themselves off as countries, with unmerited pride in their backward, brutal institutions, fueled by self-pity and reflexive, unthinking hate... mostly of us and the Jews.

Blinding Glimpse of the Obvious: Millions in the Middle East want all Americans and Jews to die, even if they personally don't want to do anything about it themselves. That doesn't mean we should nuke them all, but it is something to be borne in mind when contemplating making nice with them over tea and crumpets.

I think that is something that people need to come to grips with if they want to have the slightest clue about what is going on.

[TBeck]

Impossible. Islam is a religion of peace. These news reports are the product of a consiracy between the imperialist/zionist American criminal President and the decadent, unbelievers of the American media. :rolleyes:

Well at least I got that very last part right. :D

All we really have to do is wait. The people mutiliating the corpses are Sunni muslims, about 20% of Iraq's population and the top dogs under Saddam. When we turn things over to the "government" of Iraq those people will no doubt be ethnically cleansed by the majority Shi'a. Their bodies will probably be mutiliated too. The irony here is that the people most likely to ensure the safety of these Sunnis are the very people they are enraging right now. Us. Living well really is the best revenge.

Just like Somalia and Afghanistan, what the Iraqis really want is to be left alone so they can get back to the important business of slaughtering each other. That's tribalism. The Arabs will never amount to much until they can overcome it. We can't change it. Only they can; and most don't want to.

As I see it the point of the Afghan and Iraqi wars was not to bring democracy to people who wouldn't know what to do with a representative republic if it threw up on them. The point was to send a message to the tyrants and despots who make up the pinnacle of Arab "civilization" that their support of the enemies of the US (not to mention attempts to assassinate former US presidents) will result in their personal discomfort. Saddam is in prison, probably soon to be executed, and Mullah Omar is squatting in remote mountain huts with his buddy OBL, moving every few hours to avoid the Predators. It's GOOD to be the King, right?

This message was not lost upon the dictators of Libya, Jordan, and Syria, or the weirdbeards running Iran. They will be held personally responsible for the actions of their governments, at least until Kerry is elected.

[pax]

Sean ~

Sure. But you know that cheering on such acts is evil too -- or you wouldn't have cited it in your post as an additional reason to condemn the atrocities.

The posts above which urge us to throw away our humanity and become like the people we loathe either mean something, or they do not.

If they mean nothing, we can ignore them. But in a democracy, the most dangerous assumption a good person can make is that the voices around him mean nothing at all.

pax

Etiam capillus unus habet umbram. (Even one hair has a shadow.) -- Publilius Syrus

[Sean Smith]

Sure. But you know that cheering on such acts is evil too -- or you wouldn't have cited it in your post as an additional reason to condemn the atrocities.

And you were the one who equated posts on this forum with actually going out and mutilating corpses. ;)

But I think us arguing is silly, insofar as neither one of us has advocated indiscriminate nuking of a-rabs.

[Brian Dale]

All right, play nice. :scrutiny: Set an example.

[pax]

Sean ~

You misread.

My exact words were: "The impulse to do this sort of thing to the enemy exists in every one of us." And I cited the posts here as proof of that very thing.

Have you seen anything on this thread that would indicate otherwise?

pax

We seem to have a compulsion these days to bury time capsules in order to give those people living in the next century or so some idea of what we are like. I have prepared one of my own. I have placed some rather large samples of dynamite, gunpowder, and nitroglycerin. My time capsule is set to go off in the year 3000. It will show them what we are really like. -- Alfred Hitchcock

[Paco]

um RileyMC, my age has absolutely ZERO to do with my beliefs. It's called 'rational judgement' not to say that yours isn't but please don't attempt to dilute my argurment with the very patronizing patt on the head by my elders...

The Constitution and BoR apply others in the world because they help dictate OUR ACTIONS. You're right in saying that our laws don't apply intrisically to them but they do apply to them through the contact they have with us. We give them a fair trial not because they're Americans, but because we're Americans. As for the whole 'kill the enemy off' bit: sounds way too much like Hitler and killing off the Evil Religion/Race: Jews. Don't let us stoop to a religion war/race war or try to dehumanize them to make killing them easier. "They're evil, they're backwards, they sub-human" blah, blah, blah. Again, very Reich. Like someone else said, going the Highroad is harder but our soldiers and the American people will be able to hold their heads up high at the end of the day. We should only put the lives of our soldiers in a situation that WE would be determined to see through-morally speaking- and that means ONLY to destroy the opposition, not the people.

-paco

[Waitone]

Civilization has always been a thin, fragile veneer on human savagery. During time of war the veneer is thinner and more fragile. As best we try to keep it in tact it will at times tear. We as a society will pursue those responsible and exact justice. War in general will tear the veneer despite our best efforts.

Then there is asymetric warfare which is the nature of the war we fight against islamofascist terrormongers. Asymetric warfare is a tactic designed to use one side's overwhelming strength against itself. It involves tactics "civilized" societies refuse to officially take. It causes the veneer of civilization to become even thinner to the point of disappearing. And it will disappear completely when the opposition continues to make war on those we refuse to make war on. When the opposition blows up malls and schools, and theme parks, and sporting events; sooner or later the public will demand to know what advantages accrue to us for playing the good target while we chase ghosts. At that point there will be a failure of civilization and the full horror of a technological war machine will be apparent to all.

I don't like the picture I just painted but my abiding belief in human nature forces me to conclude we (Americans) are morally capable of inflicting horrendous damage on a foe. We may think we are better than others but the fact of the matter is our veneer is only marginally thicker than those we battle.

Moral Equivelence? Nope! Just human nature. Are we at that point today? Not hardly. It will take the loss of a city or catastrophic loss of children. Barbarism we saw today is merely a graphic picture of the nature of this war. Get used to it.

[Brian Dale]

Waitone,We may think we are better than others but the fact of the matter is our veneer is only marginally thicker than those we battle.That's the reason to keep up the hard work of maintaining it.

[Powderman]

I saw the pictures, and they made me physically ill. Not because people died--there is a war going on, and some will pay the price for that war.

Death in combat, honorably fought, is to be expected. But, this goes beyond the deaths of these Americans. This is a direct slap, spit-in-the-face challenge.

I have the perfect solution.

These people thought they saw shock and awe before? Tell the B52's to fire up. These murderers need a good old-fashioned air raid, to the same intensity as Schweinfurt and Dresden during WWII.

And, if after that occurs, more mutilations and atrocities take place, then special attention is in order.

A W80 gravity bomb, set for about 25-30 KT, at 2500 feet AGL will do nicely.

Moral of the story:

If you want to be an animal, prepare to have the leash strapped around your neck.

[longeyes]

I see things are jumpin' while I was away.

For the record, I never advocated, at any time, committing atrocities or punishing all for the crimes of a few. Did anyone? So much for straw men.

I too believe in the advance of civilization and keeping to human standards. I also believe in garbage removal.

[Joe Demko]

For the record, I never advocated, at any time, committing atrocities or punishing all for the crimes of a few. Did anyone? So much for straw men.

Do I have to post quotes from this very thread for you again?

[Paco]

As to the Baron on the other forum, here's one to the Powderman:

Matthew 7:1-5


and for those who hope for a better future, and to be reminded that our forefather were God-fearing men of deep belief:

Matthew 5:38-48

God Bless,
Paco

[longeyes]

Golgo,

I was referring to my own posts.

I'll admit I do find the unction about the desire for payback a bit much. From where I sit America's current problem is too little righteous anger, not too much. Will history reward us for our restraint? Well, that depends on who's left to write the history books and whether they're written in English or Arabic.

[R.H. Lee]

Well, Paco, I really don't know what that rambling rant was about.

Just a suggestion. Learn to communicate in paragraphs rather than one long rambling sentence following another long rambling sentence without any coherence in between.

Also, ad hominem attacks such as drawing the corollary to Hitler are not helpful. There is no moral equivalence.

I think you make my point regarding the insulation the average American has to the realities of the world. We just don't understand there are those who would kill us. I expect my government to find them and kill them first.
That is not immoral. It is self defense.

[Antlurz]

Pax....

A couple pages back, you responded to a post I made. It seems as though you based your response on my agreeing with the responses of that attack. I agree only in that our response (s) should be overwhelminly agressive and even brutal, but when one gets to the point of brutality, the definition of brutality comes into play. I use the term brutal only to define that our response should be extremely painful to the opponent. Punishingly painful, even....but degradation and mutilation have no place in that generally speaking.

Ron

(I'm definitely gonna have to learn that this forum moves fast. :D )

[Paco]

RileyMc,

I'm sorry that you have trouble understanding my writings, but don't assume there's something wrong in what I wrote. Crazy thought: maybe you didn't understand because you refuse to understand. Don't run behind that tired wall of self-righteousness.

As for not understanding my mortality: I've been at gunpoint twice, I've been assaulted and had to defend myself, I'm not from this country (though I'm a naturalized and happy American) and I've seen great death and suffering, and appalling poverty in my short years so I'm not sold on you're whole 'dillusioned' thing and I hardly doubt that I'm magically backing your argument. Let's not make assumptions.

As for no corollaries between WWII and now, well atrocity is atrocity. Hate is hate. One -dimensional thinking speaks for itself. We can still learn a tremendous amount by understanding the psycology of anger that was present on all sides in WWII. Look RileyMc as far as the war goes-the very fact that we THRers are so split, even with the amount of common ground we have, should give us all a moment of pause. I'm trying to remind myself that we're supposed to be on the same side.

Let's keep things civil. Peace:)
-paco

[Paco]

BTW, self-defense is always justified once a situation can be defined as such. That's the crux of this problem: I really don't think we're doing all that much anymore to defend ourselves. We got Saddam. We got, or at least made Osama run. What in the heck do we think is gonna be solved with bombs now? Rileymc, you say that this isn't a police thing? Well, then what is it. Tell us where we need to bomb? Who do we kill? When will we know when we have attained peace?

-confused paco:confused:

[Brasso]

Some folks just need killing.

Now....is the above just chest pounding, or is it the turth?

I know some Muslims who are good, freedom loving, religious tolerant people, but, and this may just be my impression, they seem to be the great minority of the world population of Muslims. Let's face it. If most muslims really were about peace and tolerance then these attacks would not be happening. Whether it's a matter of religion or culture, a large portion of the people of the middle east only know force. Most of their societies are based on it. In their eyes, might makes right, all moral imperatives be damned. Could I pull the trigger on a mother and her child, or an old man? No, I could not. But if I knew the town was full of only radical islamists, then it would cease to exist. I also believe that people have a moral obligation for their own government. These people let themselves be governed by a murderer. Iraq's soldiers knew who they were fighting for. I will not give them a free pass, as they have the freedom to choose what is right and good just as our forefathers did. If I were the President, my initial instinct would have been to obliterate the entire region. I hate that they turned my emotions to such hatred. Whether I could tolerate to see the blood myself or not, it is unfortunately the only viable choice these barbarians offer us. Whether we come down to their level or let them continue to murder us is the only question. It's a shame that a race of people let a mad man convince them that he went into a cave and recieved revelation telling him to kill everyone on earth who would not give up their religion and join him. Perhaps some day they will recognize who God really is.

[Paco]

Dear Brasso,

Not an attack, just a thought:

I know some Muslims who are good, freedom loving, religious tolerant people, but, and this may just be my impression, they seem to be the great minority of the world population of Muslims. Let's face it. If most muslims really were about peace and tolerance then these attacks would not be happening. Whether it's a matter of religion or culture, a large portion of the people of the middle east only know force. Most of their societies are based on it. In their eyes, might makes right, all moral imperatives be damned. Could I pull the trigger on a mother and her child, or an old man? No, I could not. But if I knew the town was full of only radical islamists, then it would cease to exist. I also believe that people have a moral obligation for their own government. These people let themselves be governed by a murderer. Iraq's soldiers knew who they were fighting for. I will not give them a free pass, as they have the freedom to choose what is right and good just as our forefathers did. If I were the President, my initial instinct would have been to obliterate the entire region. I hate that they turned my emotions to such hatred. Whether I could tolerate to see the blood myself or not, it is unfortunately the only viable choice these barbarians offer us. Whether we come down to their level or let them continue to murder us is the only question.

replace:
Muslims with Americans
Iraq's with America's
radical islamist with Staunch Christians
Middle East with North America

-I bet they say the same thing about us... We gotta stop the propaganda on both sides and try to figure this thing out. This is a new one and we're gonna have to go down different paths and come up with different solutions. That. or bring our people home and start some housekeeping here starting with beefing up the borders even more.

-paco

[Rebar]

I have to say this incident hardens my view of Islam as a cruel and barbaric religion, and most practitioners as backward, tribal, and primitive peoples.

The few exceptions to this rule regardless, it's time to stop being so friendly and openhanded, and to treat the Iraqis as a hostile population, and to really act as the occupiers that we're being accused of being.

The sooner we can hand off to the new Iraqi government the better, so they can go back to killing each other.

[hapafish]

I'm throwing another two cents in ...

I personally don't believe that just shooting down rioters in the streets is the way to go. The reason I don't agree with what happened at My Lai and No Gun Ri is because those knee-jerk reactions are done with no regard for the consequences and no aim. Turning Fallujah into a smoking crater is more an act of weakness than strength, however viscerally satisfying it may be. It is a complete admission of failure to secure Iraq, a complete abandonment of even a veneer of wanting to help the Iraqis, and and a complete bankruptcy of the American way.

That having been said, this is a war to the finish, and those burning bodies of American citizens on tape should be sufficient reminder of the futility of admitting this is anything else. It is nice to say that we are "above" atrocity and "targeting" civilians, but pulling punches on PC grounds is not the way to go. War is dirty. Peacekeeping is worse. I can't even begin to describe how filthy I felt doing peacekeeping duty and do it justice. Anyone who has done it probably has the

The best and only real form of mercy America can administer to Iraq, Afghanistan, and every other nation we fight from now on is to terminate hostilities from a show of absolute strength. To shy away from anything less is collective suicide. If America take the hard steps to end hostilities with Japan by incinerating Hiroshima and Nagasaki with all its civilians, I fail to see why we should shirk away from doing the modern-day equivalent provided the need is real and the promise of a conclusive end to hostilities is also real.

If I, born overseas, can see that this is a war for the very survival of America's way of life, and understand that now, like back then in 1945, these extreme times require extreme measures, I fail to see why any American would shy away from doing what is necessary. I grew up on stories about how the American fighting man was brave and implacable in battle, just and compassionate in peace. Why in these times the people of the United States bend over backwards to accomodate those who kill its citizens is something I will never accept nor understand.

I pray that President Bush will never have to face the same hard choices as President Truman on whether to drop the bomb, but this war is real. Quibbling over whether innocents would die is not a choice the average American has to face. Given the choice between the deaths of millions of American fighting men and the salvation of an entire generation, President Truman chose to destroy two Japanese cities, and all their innocents. And I absolutely believe he did the right thing.

This war has to be brought to a finish. It never ended, and all the nation-building and peacekeeping in the world is not going to change that one iota. Without a conclusive, overwhelming victory to bring everything to pure standstill, we will fight this war forever. If civilians have to die, that is what it will take. That is why America tries to elect men of conscience to sit in the Oval Office who think things through and know what needs to be done.

But there was no real final victory, no enemy who will stand and fight, and the enemy is great in number. What really ticks me off is that the rioters you saw in the streets don't have the balls to pick up arms and fight like the VC or the NVA, but let the foreign mujahid and a small number of insurgents do all the fighting, if hit-and-run can be honored by such a word. I'd know if I was one of them, I would be hitting the "occupiers" every single damn day. These people are cowards. Filthy, disgraceful cowards.

Since we're all in it for the long haul, let's stay long enough to destroy all the ones who want Americans dead. There's no other real choice available, unless you want us to all pull out like in Somalia and prove without a shadow of a doubt that America is now a nation of cowards, ripe for the killing. Send me and my buddies back and let us really fight. If a price has to be paid for peace, let us pay it - out of their hide. America is worth nothing less.

Peace out.

[Paco]

hapafish,

Here's the thing man: I think the fellas in the Oval Office know that it can't be so easily solved by giving a very powerful definitive blow like in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. We knew Japan was tetering and getting ready to push its civies into the last desperate act of trading their lives for as many American soldiers as possible. This is a bit different. No bomb can solve this.

Honestly I don't know what will except that I disagree about the whole pulling out thing and becoming weak thus easy pickings. After we pulled outta Vietnam, no nations came to our door to pick a fight. We smacked Iraq around in the first Gulf War and in the Desert Storm broke some military records as to how fast we got to their capital. AND we caught their leader. I highly doubt if we pulled out we would be considered cowards. We're the only super power left on the earth and I don't think that a group of nations could take us down.

Pulling out is a perfectly viable option, and not a cowardly one. My uncle who, as I've said before, was in Vietnam for three tours and just because he was ordered to come back doesn't mean he's a coward. Anycase, now that we've got lots of folks going back-n-forth on this, what would you SPECIFICALLY do to end this? Seriously, if your were the man or woman in power, what would you do specifically?

-paco

[Brasso]

If you want a serious answer from me I'll give it. And this is not just "chest pounding", because I have believed this for many years.

I would drop a nuke on one middle eastern city for every act of terrorism committed until it stopped. I would advocate Israel driving every last palestinian out of the region so that we would not have to be involved with the matter any more. Maybe I'm just not presidential material, but that is seriously what I would do.

Until the radical islamists and the muslim population as a whole who support them by not standing against them catch up with the rest of the civilized world that is all they offer their enemies.

What makes them such cowardice little bastards is that they prey on our compassion, knowing that we are not as capable of the same level of evil as they are, and at the same time proclaim themselves the chosen people of god.

Sorry if the little "god" offends anyone, but I do not believe they worship the same God as the God of the Bible. That is my personal belief, right or wrong.

[Paco]

which city do you drop it on. 16 outta the 19 9/11 terrorists were Saudi Arabians and that's a fact. Do we drop in on Bush's good friends? It's also a fact that the Saudies and the Bush family have close ties. Again, it worked in WWII but how do you direct your attack. And I have a sneaking suspition that the bombing would fuel evrlasting hatred from more than just the Arabs and we would eventually would have to bomb most of the world. Ha! No thanks, but what do I know. Keep the 'solutions' coming!

-paco:p

[Paco]

Brasso,

You added some goodies! If you are a Christian then I say:

Matthew 7:1-5
Matthew 5:38-48

I gotta believe that Americans are good hearted people and that they can stay that way even if they are getting abused. I hope we can maintain our humanity through this one: too many ghost stories from both my uncles about Vietnam.

[R.H. Lee]

My hat's off to you, Paco. You are a master of verbal equivocation.

As to your question "when will we know if we have attained peace?".....

War cannot become peace without victory. One side must destroy the other. There is no other way.

Is it inevitable that many lives will be lost on both sides? Maybe not, but I'm not hopeful as regards radical islamofascism. They are not a rational enemy. They are eager to blow themselves and their children up to kill us.
We cannot reason with them. We cannot negotiate or even co-exist with them. They will not be satisfied with anything short of Islamic world domination.

They are not, for example, anything like the former Soviet Union. There were enough nuclear weapons between the U.S. and the U.S.S.R to destroy the entire planet many times over. Yet in 50 years, it never happened. Why? MAD-Mutually Assured Destruction prevailed. Each side was more interested in its OWN survival then in the others destruction.
Eventually, we non violently defeated the U.S.S.R and it is no longer a superpower nor a threat to our existence.

Israel has at one time or another offered the so-called 'palestinians' everything they asked for. In response, Israel suffered more terrorism and murder of its citizens, and that continues to this day. Make no mistake, THIS enemy is consumed with hatred for us.

Where do we attack? Afghanistan and Iraq are a good start. The U.S. is in a strategic location in the middleast to project power quickly and decisively to Syria/Iran/Lebanon or anyone else who may need some good medicine.

[EchoSixMike]

After we pulled outta Vietnam, no nations came to our door to pick a fight.

Wrong. The USSR went into Afganistan, and there was all the communist fun happening in Angola and elsewhere in Africa being fought by proxy as a direct result of American failure in VN. Same with Cambodia for that matter. That nobody mad a play for the CONUS was only due to the fact that people like Curtis Lemay put us so far ahead early in the game that a few years of stupidity didn't sink us.

You fight the war until the enemy tries to surrender, and then you keep fighting him a little more until the desperation sets in, and he realizes that he has no choice save to surrender and pray that we are merciful. IN this case, I would suggest that I MEF surround Fallujah(it's a city of about 1 million, and it's about 25 Sq km looking at the map right now) and we need to go through the whole stinking place and kill those who need killing without mercy. Some will resist and ID themselves for killing, that is my hope. More will be ID'd by our intel assets for later interogation and elimination. This will result in more than a few dead Marines, probably some guys I know, guys I was E-mailing and phoning only recently. But it is the right thing to do, balancing the need to do things the right way, and the need to win the war. Something similar would be fine as well. To let it go without any serious action to to admit defeat, as in Somalia, Beirut or Yeman.

To depopulate the region via nuclear or chemical weapons would be fine with me, personally for I'm rather cynical about any future for Iraq(or the middle east in general), but that's only me being hopelessly unrealistic. I have no doubts that America would easily survive doing so and remain America, as we are now, and have always been a nation unwilling to break others to our will militarily. We are a nation that is strangely bipolar, being both assured that our way is right, and at the same time completely unwilling to impose that way upon others. That is why I see no long term harm to the national character coming from cauterizing the ME, as it would an historial anomoly. I do see long term harm coming to America from the insane steps we would take in the name of security following a nuclear or severe bio attack on America, as the restriction of liberty in the name of security has been a long running trend in America and the rest of the world, for that matter. Thus,while I see genocide as a failure on our part, it is the lessor of two failures if the alternative is the self destruction of the US by conversion into a police state in the aftermath of a severe WMD attack that sends the sheeple into panic. The US lashing out would cause the US to restrict it's government. The US being attacked would cause the US to restrict it's citizenry. Thus the rational for my position.

MadDog posted an interesting thread back on TFL regarding the historical implementation of genocide. Sad and interesting reading. Sad choices.

To forstall the noise about me not doing my part, being an uninvolved nutcase, etc etc, I'll be in the Iraq AO in about four monthes, give or take a few weeks. Say what you will, but I'm not noncommital. S/F...Ken M

[w4rma]

FYI, it appears that they were mercenaries. There are probably *alot* more mercenaries being killed in Iraq, but they don't add to the American soldier death count. It is my understanding that this is the primary reason that they are being used.

4 Killed in Iraq Worked for N.C. Firm

Wed Mar 31, 6:22 PM ET
By EMERY P. DALESIO, Associated Press Writer

MOYOCK, N.C. - The four civilians who were killed and dragged through the streets of an Iraqi town Wednesday worked for a North Carolina subcontractor that is providing security in a hostile area of Iraq.

Blackwater Security Consulting provides security training and guard services to customers around the world. It is one of five subsidiaries of Blackwater USA, based in northeastern North Carolina about a half-hour's drive from the world's largest naval base in Norfolk, Va.

The company referred calls to a spokesman in suburban Washington who declined comment beyond a prepared statement that said Blackwater was a government subcontractor providing security for the delivery of food in the Fallujah area.
...
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040331/ap_on_re_mi_ea/civilian_deaths&cid=540&ncid=1480

[capt. Nemo]

Someone a while back made reference to a philosophy of sorts: Kill the terrorists but not the people.

I think some are missing something very obvious to me...the people ARE the terrorists. I don't understand the view of several on this board that this is a police action and each terrorist needs a trial and justice and protection as provided by our Constitution and Bill of Rights. Damn, some posts have approached condemnation of our existance in the world and justification of the attacks on us. We've been compared to Hitler. We've been censured for referring to Muslims as anything but a great, peaceful, benevolent religion. It was said that we "owe it to foreigners" to make access to our country as easy as possible. Is the the next step to say that our country belongs to everybody except us?

If we delude ourselves into thinking that we can win the war - or even prevent another domestic attack - with a limited, politically correct, kill'em-with-kindness-justice-compassion approach, then we have already lost.

I don't see many Mullahs or Muslims condemning these atrocities. Guilt by omission may be as bad as guilt by commision.

I'm not racist, bigoted or cruel. I'm just an American.

Just my two cents worth...

Buck

[Paco]

capt. nemo,

woah there! No one said anything about America being another Nazi culture. I, me myself, I said that to use the argument of religion as an excuse to wipe out an ENTIRE people is awful close to the Fuhrer. If the shoe fits, fine, if not it's just an observation on a phylosophy approaching another known and corrupt phylosophy- No one here on this board strikes mean as a Nazi, just some of us have some serious anger and feel that their anger justifies statements of racial anger or religious anger.

-paco

[warmi]

" Blackwater was a government subcontractor providing security for the delivery of food in the Fallujah area."

Well, looks like they don't care for our food ...

[Paco]

Dear echosixmike,

How is Afganistan or Cambodia 'knocking on our door?' As for genocide vs police state, well, I think it's too easy to say it's just one or the other and a great way to justify a futile war. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but you would wipe out EVERY terrosist out there, meaning ALL muslims? How about home-grown terrorists like the oklahoma bombers?

How about instead only surgical strikes to the leaders- that's what I would propose. Get our specialists to do a quasi-Brasso suggestion/ thing: kill their terrorist leaders for every time they attack us-just like the idea in Afganistan. I know, I know: easier said than done- but that's what I'd propose while hurrying to set up their gov. and then split. I have no interest in making Iraq a state, or Afganistan for that matter.

What branch of the service are you going in as? Do you know what job they are giving you? What do your friends over there think of the situation?

-paco

[gunsmith]

A guy I used to know worked for a company called dyncorp guarding places in Qatar,he quit because he wasn't allowed to carry weapons off duty.
I have not heard yet if these poor folks suffered the same dumb pc rules.

[Paco]

p.s. rileymc, I mean no offense but you sound like a conspiracy theorist or a hold over from the communist-red fear days. Do you really think those fighter/terrorists/peasants want to subjegate the WHOLE world? Yeah, yeah, I know what some of their fundamentalist leaders say, but guess what: I've heard similar talk from fundamentalist christians saying that christianity MUST be spread to all corners of the world... So much for freedom of belief.

BTW, I'm just as pissed at the terrorists as anyone, but that's just it: I'm pissed at the terrorists, not the mothers, fathers, brothers, and sisters they are associated with. Stay civil!;)

[warmi]

Yeah, they were.
I read that there were some weapons found inside of their burned out cars.

I don't think it mattered here much since they were ambushed by rpg wielding thugs.

[capt. Nemo]

Hey Paco,

I didn't intend to start a side-discussion, but, you're the one who brought up the "H" word (gotta be PC):" 'kill the enemy off' bit: sounds way too much like Hitler".

What does one do to an enemy during wartime? I'm not being a smartass...I'd really like to know.

Mods, I know this is OT and if there's any follow up on this particular theme, we'll take it up with PM's.

Buck

[gunsmith]

eh, why not!
Probably not gonna happen, though they were (are)certainly asking for it.
If (as "paco" suggest) the Saudi's are such good friends of GW,why are they raising the price of gas during an election year?

Paco what is "spujegate"

The Islamic nut job terrorist either want to kill or convert the entire world to their brand of Islam,they believe that will bring world peace.

[Delmar]

I would guess there are peaceful people in Iraq-otherwise, we would be at war with the vast majority of them. That does not seem to be the case, at least not at this time.

I do not advocate killing wholesale, but those caught and known to be on the wrong side of this fight should be dealt with in the harshest possible terms.

Truman used an atomic bomb because it did the maximum about of damage and pretty much "out of the blue". Nobody would have thought a lone bomber could cause so much devastation, and it was a violent appeal to the empire to give up. Two bombs later, it worked. Not by itself-the USSR was chomping at the bit to get their booty, the rest of the allies had fought a long, bloody and no-quarter battle to get close.

Our "nuke" of the modern era are precision guided weapons. They fall out of the sky at altitudes where they cannot be seen by the naked eye. I don't think its a useful weapon at this stage of the war-not unless the bad guys dig a few buried tank divisions out of the sand.

The only thing which is going to do this is to find the bad guys and fight them toe to toe, and help the saner ones establish some kind of a sensible government, help to feed them and assist in helping them establish some kind of a working economy.

As others have mentioned, in the end-its their fight to win or lose. We won't be there forever.

[pax]

I don't see many Mullahs or Muslims condemning these atrocities. Guilt by omission may be as bad as guilt by commision.
Capt Nemo ~

Marko Kloos' post at http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=193009#post193009 should lay that canard to rest.

pax

All languages carry in them a portrait of their users and the idioms of every language say over and over again, 'He is a stranger and therefore a barbarian.' ... It is the only joke that God ever repeats, because its humor never grows stale. -- Robert A. Heinlein

[hapafish]

-pacoWe knew Japan was tetering and getting ready to push its civies into the last desperate act of trading their lives for as many American soldiers as possible. This is a bit different. No bomb can solve this.

On the contrary, I don't believe this is any different. The enemy won't yield an inch. They think this is a continuation of the Crusades our part, and they are perfectly willing to throw themselves at us forever, until the Judeo-Christian civilization they so despise is eradicated. I've listened to enough of their crap. In Al Hillah it was "Jews bad, Jews bad" and they had some choice words for some of my African-American friends. In Ash Shurah it was "Islam good, Christians bad" and this was coming from the damn Iraqi cops. In Hamman Ali they had enough contempt for us to throw translated extremist literature to us for "understanding" ... stuff which clearly stated "If you are not Muslim you are going to Hell." I'm not advocating indiscriminate use of nuclear weapons. My point in bringing that up was to tell the people who believe that America is "so much better than hurting innocents" that there have been times that it has been necessary for the nation to do precisely that to survive. If the nation can commit to the "ultimate acts of inhumanity" in Hiroshima and Nagasaki and thus preserve a generation of American fighting men from slaughter and the entire Japanese nation from extinction, then how in hindsight can anyone say there was any reasonable alternative? We don't have to use nuclear weapons, but the victory must be just as shocking, just as through, just as final.

-pacoHonestly I don't know what will except that I disagree about the whole pulling out thing and becoming weak thus easy pickings. After we pulled outta Vietnam, no nations came to our door to pick a fight. We smacked Iraq around in the first Gulf War and in the Desert Storm broke some military records as to how fast we got to their capital. AND we caught their leader. I highly doubt if we pulled out we would be considered cowards. We're the only super power left on the earth and I don't think that a group of nations could take us down.

No, we showed in Vietnam that with our hands tied behind our backs, we could be persuaded to quit the field and abandon our POWs to the communists. We hit Iraq hard in the First Gulf War but left the job unfinished, even with a much larger Allied force and a mandate that could have let us and the world do a far better job of the peacekeeping mess we're stuck in now. In the Second Gulf War we broke records on how quickly we shattered the Iraqi military, but we let their troops take their weapons with them and melt into the population to pursue this insurgency. I seriously doubt if we pulled out and the world witnessed Iraq become a charnel house that we would NOT be considered savages who came just for the oil, got what they wanted, and were ousted by "victorious mujahideen" as befits such "infidels." Hit enough of us, and we will leave - just like in Vietnam, or Somalia - that is the wrong message to send. I don't consider your uncle, or my uncles, cowards for leaving Vietnam when ordered, and I said no such thing. I still believe in the courage of the American fighting man - far better men than I who I have the honor to work for. However, war is a total effort, and the resolve of the people and the government is what counts. Pulling out is no viable option as things stand now. Failure to keep a promise to rebuild Iraq makes every future nation-building effort on our part suspect. Failure to pacify Iraq leaves one of the world's largest oil-producing nations a smoking humanitarian disaster. If this is what a "superpower" does, then America needs to take lessons from the Romans or the Mongols. Even that would be better.

-pacoAnycase, now that we've got lots of folks going back-n-forth on this, what would you SPECIFICALLY do to end this? Seriously, if your were the man or woman in power, what would you do specifically?

In all seriousness, I would like to see us first of all take a through census of the areas we control. We don't know who is living where, or what sort of population movements there are out there. Relying on the Iraqi cops to help us out is probably a really bad idea; the guys I saw in several towns were useless, lazy, and made me think of the ARVNs. Cowards wouldn't go out at night without us to hold their hand, or more correctly, "push them in the right direction." We should also go for total disarmament of the entire populace. No rational reason why we should let "every household" have automatic weapons, especially since they shoot them off everywhere with no regard for public safety. Martial law, and 100% curfews after sundown. No one should have any business outside after dark. We cut a deal wherever possible with the peshmerga and cooperative local militias to take the load off of our guys on patrols and site security. We can achieve our objectives, so long as we're allowed to be aggressive enough in large enough numbers. Note that I don't advocate unilateral pullout, on the grounds of "our poor troops our suffering, bring them home." Like it or not, America is committed to this endeavour, so the only choice left is to finish it right.

We can pull out. But that won't end this war. 9/11 should have made that clear. We can turn away from Iraq or Afghanistan now, and get a knife right in the back later when some extremist decides to "punish the Great Satan." I hardly think so-called "superpower" status matters to fanatics very much. In the end, we have to stay. We can either find a way to bridge the chasm between the West and the Islamic world, or we can fight to bloody ruin. We can bleed them and they can bleed us, forever. I prefer to find a lasting solution. I know it's possible, but now that the battle lines are drawn and the enemy is not interested in leaving us alone or screwing around, whatever needs to be done to ensure the United States survives better be done.

Peace out.

[longeyes]

I'm sorry but the Muslim world is going to have to do more than merely condemn the terrorist elements, even granting that they have made much effort to do so publicly. They are in the best position to root them out, given their knowledge of the culture and the language. I think we are well within our rights to hold them responsible for reining in their delinquents. At some point, especially if there are more dramatic attacks, the West will tire of dealing with state-abetted terrorism as a law enforcement problem and lay our dead on the doorstep of the people who are behind it all.

[El Rojo]

Thank you hapafish for your comments. It is good to get your perspective.
We should also go for total disarmament of the entire populace. No rational reason why we should let "every household" have automatic weapons, especially since they shoot them off everywhere with no regard for public safety. Martial law, and 100% curfews after sundown. No one should have any business outside after dark.How is this any different than a world with Saddam? Sure you might not get taken away and killed, but do you have anymore freedom under this US martial law than under Saddam? Why should we have the right to keep and bear arms if the Iraqi's can not? Is it only an Anglo (I know you are of Japanese decent) right? I know Hapafish you give us examples of how to keep you and your buddies safe. That is your perspective as the guy who has to worry about getting wacked on a daily basis over there. However, would you want to live the same way? Martial law? No going out after dark? Total disarmanent of the entire population? Do we have enough troops and Iraqi police to ensure everyone's safety? Will the evil elements of Iraq still find access to weapons?

I tell you what, that whole place is a big stinking mess. And the sad thing is under Saddam there was order. Life was predictable. As much as we enjoy our freedoms, it seems the Iraqi's didn't mind their enslavement too much. Isn't it crazy how a few bad apples can ruin this whole thing?

God Bless our troops who have to do the best job they can over there. May you always be proud of your professionalism and the job well done. Even if we pull out and the whole place goes to hell again, you did what you had to do. And I think that sacrifice and dedication is a good thing for the youth of America. We have to find something positive from this crazy situation. I wish there was an easy answer.

[idd]

One important difference between our troops and the terrorists is that our troops are not intentionally waging war on civilians and non-combatants and desecrating them or humiliating them, either alive or dead.

HHmm.....would you believe deliberately destroying civilian infrastructure such as sewage treatment and water purification plants? (http://tinyurl.com/2rw9r)

How about ending infrastructure and services repair in Fallujah for a time being ?

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

[Drjones]

Just a couple random, late-night thoughts:

I don't care who the terrorists are, where they come from, why they hate us, nor what religion they pretend to practice.

As long as there are people attacking and plotting against America, as well as attacking our Armed Forces overseas, we should find out who is responsible, as well as what, if any, countries, governments, or other organizations may be lending them any support, comfort or aid of any form, and wipe them out completely.

If that takes a nuke, so be it. If that takes xx number of bullets, so be it.

Find who is doing it and obliterate them.

If we find that much of the "civilian" population is encouraging and supporting activities like this, well they aren't really civilians, are they?

Act accordingly. That's why we invented the MOAB and have such a range of delightfully explosive goodies in our arsenal.

[El Rojo]

So where do you draw the line Dr. Jones? What constitutes encouraging and supporting activities like this? Voting democrat? Many of us would advocate they are on the side of evil. I like good old fashioned violence just as much as the next guy; however, if the violence just encourages more violence and the cycle never ends, it might be time to think of another option. Does anyone in here really believe that we can "force" Islamic Militants into realizing their cause is lost? HELLO!!! I value life. I don't really want to die for my cause, I want the other guy to die for his. Islamic Militants are willing to die for their cause! They think dieing for their cause is a good thing. They think they will be greatly rewarded for that. So how is threatening to kill them going to convince them they don't want to fight us? Sure I give you that if we convince those not willing to die that they might die too, they might stop supporting these people. Or they might just lay low and just try to stay out of it.

If we find that much of the "civilian" population is encouraging and supporting activities like this, well they aren't really civilians, are they?
I guess those security guards that were dragged through the streets weren't really civilians were they? I guess anyone who believed in America and our cause for freedom who died on 9/11 weren't really civilians either. So since the Islamic Militants figured we are all part of this war, we are all fair game right? In reality, yes we are. I know a terrorist will smoke me just as easily as a guy in uniform. I make no mistakes about that and know if I ever run into a terrorist who is bent on entering Allah's Kingdom at my expense, I will not hesitate to send Him there without me. However, do we want to be the same as the terrorists? Do we want to disregard life so easily as they do? Do we really believe God will honor our deeds because we sent as many of the heathen Islamic barbarians to their hellish graves as possible? If the answers are yes, then bombs away. Take them all out. Kill them all: men, women, and children. Do it in the name of God, Country, and Glory! I won't be joining you in Hell.

[Drjones]

Does anyone in here really believe that we can "force" Islamic Militants into realizing their cause is lost? HELLO!!! I value life. I don't really want to die for my cause, I want the other guy to die for his. Islamic Militants are willing to die for their cause! They think dieing for their cause is a good thing. They think they will be greatly rewarded for that. So how is threatening to kill them going to convince them they don't want to fight us? Sure I give you that if we convince those not willing to die that they might die too, they might stop supporting these people. Or they might just lay low and just try to stay out of it.


No see, you misunderstand.

When I said "wipe them out completely" and "obliterate," I meant that we should kill them all. (Terrorists, not nuking whole cities.)

I know that these terrorists cannot be persuaded or reasoned with in any way. The only way to defeat them is to kill them, and I'm more than happy to do that.

We have bigger guns and bombs. Let's put them to good use.

I guess those security guards that were dragged through the streets weren't really civilians were they? I guess anyone who believed in America and our cause for freedom who died on 9/11 weren't really civilians either. So since the Islamic Militants figured we are all part of this war, we are all fair game right? In reality, yes we are. I know a terrorist will smoke me just as easily as a guy in uniform. I make no mistakes about that and know if I ever run into a terrorist who is bent on entering Allah's Kingdom at my expense, I will not hesitate to send Him there without me. However, do we want to be the same as the terrorists? Do we want to disregard life so easily as they do? Do we really believe God will honor our deeds because we sent as many of the heathen Islamic barbarians to their hellish graves as possible? If the answers are yes, then bombs away. Take them all out. Kill them all: men, women, and children. Do it in the name of God, Country, and Glory! I won't be joining you in Hell.

You're awfully good at building those straw men.

Nowhere in my previous post did I advocate senselessly and randomly killing civilians.

What I did state is that if a person is aiding and abetting terrorists in any way (this includes the people who murdered our men today), they should be considered a legitimate target.

You obviously forget that among these "people," a woman will kill you just as dead as a man.

[hapafish]

-El Rojo How is this any different than a world with Saddam? Sure you might not get taken away and killed, but do you have anymore freedom under this US martial law than under Saddam? Why should we have the right to keep and bear arms if the Iraqi's can not? Is it only an Anglo (I know you are of Japanese decent) right? I know Hapafish you give us examples of how to keep you and your buddies safe. That is your perspective as the guy who has to worry about getting wacked on a daily basis over there. However, would you want to live the same way? Martial law? No going out after dark? Total disarmanent of the entire population? Do we have enough troops and Iraqi police to ensure everyone's safety? Will the evil elements of Iraq still find access to weapons?

Good sir, I think I am losing all my pocket change in this thread. To be really blunt, I sometimes don't think that there is ANY equivalency between American and Iraqi society other than that the residents of both breathe air and reside on this planet. That having been said, my comments on martial law, curfews, etc. were not just my opinions on how the troops could stay alive, but how the Iraqis could find lasting peace. The Iraqis don't have a constitution - yet. The Arab world didn't go through the sociohistorical process (the Magna Carta, the French Revolution, the Declaration of Independence) that the United States did, so there may not even be RKBA enshrined in it. To give RKBA to all Iraqis at this stage is like giving the right to inmates in an asylum to medicate themselves. If we don't defang the insurgents, they'll just keep on blowing up infrastructure and shooting up the public until everything goes to s%&t.

If I knew that I wouldn't have to worry about my neighbors blowing up my sheep, stealing my crops, getting ripped on booze and shooting up my walls, I would not complain about not having firearms in the house. Especially if justice was swift, certain, and implacable. Right now it isn't, and I don't think the Stryker unit that relieved my Brigade a couple of months back has changed things much. Remember, I've lived overseas in a society that has no RKBA, and extremely low crime rates thanks to a strong police state. The rules are different for Asia and, as I found, the Middle East. I hardly think the people in THR go around using their RKBA to tear up their local PD with "evil assault weapons" and use them to run guns, run drugs, and destroy people. In Iraq, that's a way of life. If you found toddlers beating the crap out of each other with sticks and bleeding each other out, would you not take the sticks away from them and sort them out? Wouldn't you sit them down, explain to them why this was wrong, and ground them for this sort of behavior, and warn them that such behavior would not be tolerated in the future? So why the hell do we let the Iraqis run around with all that damn heavy ordnance, and let them bleed each other and us?

As long as we pussyfoot around we're going to keep on getting hit, over and over and over again. Something happened to the America that was strong enough to do "whatever it takes" to bring an end to the Axis Powers. Now it's all about strangulation through ROEs, bad media coverage, bleeding hearts, and letting terrorists and their sponsors walk. This is bulls%&t. I don't want to have to watch another 9/11 unfold. I've heard enough arguments on how "evil" America is for the sanctions, for its "unwarranted invasion" and for any number of reasons. Better evil than living with having failed the nation and let our families die.

America's technology and way of life do not guarantee it victory. Peasants fought us to standstill in Vietnam, and insurgents with rubber sandals are holding us up in Iraq and Afghanistan. War is dirty, and the quicker it ends the right way with a decisive conclusion, the better. So why not admit this is for better or worse a fight to the bitter end? They dragged those charred bodies around like it was Mogadishu, and they want us to pull out? So we give them what they want, and they hit us, the "Great Satan" for any number of reasons with another 9/11? No thanks. The fight is on their doorstep. Since we're not Romans, Mongols, or the Red Army, and we've committed to reforming the crackheads without burning the whole block down, why not do the right thing and really clean house? Is that really too much to ask? I'll stay in service until it's done. Far better men than I would do the same with no regrets. And maybe, just maybe, this war will end in living memory.

That's enough for tonight. I expect to get royally flamed. Peace out.

[Gabe]

This whole thing reminds me of the French experience in Algeria. The French were killing a lot more Algerian guerrillas than the other way around. So the only thing the Algerians could do was make those French casualties die as barbarically as possible.

They kept uping the ante in atrocities but the French weren't shocked. Finally they kidnaped some French soldiers and skinned them. From then on French civilian population started to say these people are too savage to save and public support dissolved.

My prediction is Iraqi insurgents will follow this route. The attacks will become ever more barbaric as a premeditated technique to dishearten the TV watching public. It's a mind game, reality is the first casualty of terroristic insurgencies.

Fighting terrorists have to be done in a cold calculating way, resorting to kneejerk reaction is the fastest way to lose the war.

[El Rojo]

No I understood you. aiding and abetting terrorists in any wayas well as what, if any, countries, governments, or other organizations may be lending them any support, comfort or aid of any form, and wipe them out completely.So if I speak out in favor of Islam and that the Americans get what they deserve, am I condemned to death? I just "comforted" them. Do Muslims tithe? If any of that money goes from their church and finds its way into a terrorist organization, should we MOAB the church and all of the people in it? No straw men here. I just want to know how far we are going to carry out this pacification of our enemies. I would also like to know if it is even remotely possible we could ever kill all of our enemies and anyone who even thinks about "supporting, comforting, or aiding them in any form". Lets see, there are the Chineese, sometimes our friends, sometimes our enemies. There's a billion we have to wipe out there. How many Muslims are there in the world? My quick goole search puts that between 700 million and 1.2 billion people. Of course not all of the chinese and Muslims hate us, but we still have a lot of people to kill. So lets get started. Lets not worry about a trial or anything, just start killing. The MOAB is such a precision weapon, I am sure no one innocent will get hit. I am sure no target will ever get misclassified (like the Chineese Embassy in Iraq). Lets just start the wholesale slaughter. Forget about the logistics and how many more people we are going to convince to hate us in the ensuing Mêlée. We are Americans! Shoot first, ask questions later!

Ok, here is my deal. I am all for hunting them down. But how long are we going to have to hunt? Can we take them all out? Are we going to do it with our "MOAB and range of delightfully explosive goodies"? How long are we going to have to kill? How do we set our policies concerning who is guilty and who is not? What is considered aiding the enemey? What is not? If we are going to assume that our resolve is so great and we will hunt them forever and the more American's they kill, the more resolved we are going to be, why do we assume they do not have the same resolve? There is going to come a time when we find that all of our resources are going to the waging of war and what good is that? We have to have a balance. I don't have all of the answers, but I do know blowing everyone to hell is not the best solution. Reality, we will never kill all of the terrorists. New soldiers are recruited everyday. So when is this war on terror going to end? Probably the same time as the war on drugs and the war on crime. Damn that sucks.

[El Rojo]

No flames from me Hapafish. What you say makes sense. I just get this feeling that Iraq is this big black hole with no end in sight. Will it all work? We are supposed to give them control as soon as possible. How do you convince the common Iraqi that an oppresive American regime is better than Saddam's regime we just took out? What is the incentive to them to go along with it? Are they capable of living in peace? Someone else brought up the good point that much of this region has been like this forever. Many tribes and groups in Afghan, Somalia, Vietnam, and Iraq hate each other. They would rather die than get along. Then a foreign invader comes along, they kiss and make up, get together and kill the foreign devils, get their country back, then start it all up again. Is there an end in sight for this Iraqi War? Will they ever get along and take up the cause of democracy and representative government? I ask you because I don't know them. You have at least talked to some of them. Do you honestly think absent from a strong dictator or king, these people will ever get along? I wish being of isolationist mindset didn't make you a target.

My brain is fried. I give up for tonight. Everyone take care.

[BamBam-31]

:fire: Aaaarrrggg! Outrage!

Man, I'm glad I'm not calling the shots. It'd be WWIII, only condensed.

[ravinraven]

Hey, Capt Nemo. If you'd just answer YES to your question, I'm sure you could get a job in any college or university running their Anti-Kultural program!

"Is the the next step to say that our country belongs to everybody except us?"

-------------------

I think we have to have a SUPER intelligence service. We have to wipe these birds out from the inside in order to keep atoms and MOABs from being the order of the day. I don't think that we need to care what they believe or how they "worship" as long as the free world is not continually endangered. When they attack us, totally wipe out the area the attackers came from. That way, if you are actually a peaceful Muslim and a terrorist unit sets up shop in your neighborhood, you'll have some incentive to call in your friendly neighborhood CIA team to extinguish the bass t*rds.

This is a bit like cancer surgery. And in the surgical removal of a cancer, some healthy cells are taken with it. Sorry.

rr

[RealGun]

Those pictures were meant to be upsetting. I don't need to see them and give any satisfaction. The question is whether we can handle the truth about what goes on over there. My guess is that, off the record, Marines and Special Forces will exact a price for participating in that picture and incident. On the record, it's a war crime by international law. It ain't over yet.

[ojibweindian]

pax

some of the people who posted after me, who really proved the point of my first post.

ojibweindian, feedthehogs, warmi ~ thanks for illustrating my point with such acidulous piquancy.

Have you seen the pictures?

I really don't care if I proved your point or not. I'm not in any popularity contests, I'm not PC, or very sensitive to damn near anything said or done by anyone to me. It does, however make me extremely pissed to see Americans killed and and their bodies desecrated in such a fashion while a huge group of miscreant bastards gleefully watch and cheer.

Those people in Falluja have a good idea as to who these guys are, and they're not doing too much to help our troops catch them so as far as I'm concerned, they're all guilty, and they should all die.

If you, or anybody on this board, thinks that to be an extremist POV, all I can say is TS and be glad I'm not CinC.

[Eskimo Jim]

Idd,
Interesting link, however can you prove that this policy was carried out?

If you don't have concrete, detailed and irrefutable proof of this then you're making some very heavy allegations that aren't true.

-Jim

[BeLikeTrey]

When we turn it over our job is done. We need to stick it out until then. We also need to clearly state our objectives DAILY! We need to sound like a broken record. “Our objective is…. And …. And ….” Once those objectives are complete, we claim victory.

[Joe Demko]

ojibweindian:I really don't care if I proved your point or not. I'm not in any popularity contests, I'm not PC, or very sensitive to damn near anything said or done by anyone to me.

You are, however, still here instead of on your way to Iraq to actually do anything besides impotently squeal for revenge that you want someone else (i.e some kid in the army) to take for you.

[ojibweindian]

Guess what I did in the 90s, Golgo? I was a Corpsman. I got to see some stuff. *** did you do for your country? I patched up young men and women. Sometimes they bled all over me and my fellow corpsmen.

Ever see what ruptured steam pipes can do to flesh? I have. Ever see what happens when someone falls from the bridge wing on the O4 level to the pier? I have. Ever see what happens when someone who had a little too much to drink the night before gets into a losing battle with a metal press? I have.

So, I've served, and will continue to serve my country in whatever way fate allows me. You can KMA.

[longeyes]

I'd like to thank you for your perspective and remarks. Your addition to this forum is invaluable. No flames here; the only flames belong in Iraq, under the people who hate and threaten us.

El Rojo said: "Ok, here is my deal. I am all for hunting them down. But how long are we going to have to hunt? Can we take them all out? Are we going to do it with our "MOAB and range of delightfully explosive goodies"? How long are we going to have to kill? How do we set our policies concerning who is guilty and who is not? What is considered aiding the enemey? What is not? If we are going to assume that our resolve is so great and we will hunt them forever and the more American's they kill, the more resolved we are going to be, why do we assume they do not have the same resolve? There is going to come a time when we find that all of our resources are going to the waging of war and what good is that? We have to have a balance. I don't have all of the answers, but I do know blowing everyone to hell is not the best solution. Reality, we will never kill all of the terrorists. New soldiers are recruited everyday. So when is this war on terror going to end? Probably the same time as the war on drugs and the war on crime. Damn that sucks."

I think the answer to how long we are going to have to hunt is: How long do you want to stay alive, how long do you wish to prevail?

As for the "balance," my own personal view is that given the realities of the world we need to shift the balance away from consumer nicety-nice and toward the military. All of the great societies have been "war machine" societies, including those which advanced science, art, and law. There's a reason for that, and it hasn't been repealed. Civilization is a never-ending struggle, fought on all levels. We keep trying to take the word "fight" out of the discourse; that's the legacy of the last forty years of social experimentation. It won't work until and unless the genetic engineers transform human nature--and that's a prospect most of us would feel pretty uncomfortable with.

I think Hapafish raises some issues about RKBA that should be discussed further on this forum. In the end we cannot separate RKBA from the culture and values in which it arises. That's my view, at least.

[longeyes]

You are, however, still here instead of on your way to Iraq to actually do anything besides impotently squeal for revenge that you want someone else (i.e some kid in the army) to take for you.

That's a pretty cheap shot. Save your vitriol for the real enemy.

You do bring up a good point, though: we need everyone in this society to get behind the war effort. That means more than paying taxes. If this is a real war to save the Republic, then we should honor that and mobilize.
we should act as if we understand we're at war, united, and ready to make sacrifices. We've got half this country thinking they're on a never-ending party circuit by entitlement.

[Paco]

Gentlemen, I'd just like to throw this out since the gauntlet has been thrown down:

-We all serve our country. If you're a legal, tax paying citizen of the USA, then you are serving this country. How do people think the military exists: by civies busting there butt at their jobs to pay taxes and giving up their sons, daughters, sisters, brothers, mothers, and fathers to the effort and being there to pick up the pieces when they come back.

-I have GREAT respect for our military personelle even if all you do is push papers or feed the hungry soldiers. Having said that, being a soldier doesn't mean your word should have anymore weight in weighting out the moral or logistical implications of a situation. It does give you insight into human nature, but then a cop or social worker, for example has great insight as well.

-My personal belief is to ALWAYS support the soldiers but to question our politians. If you want to talk about duty-then our duty, for us non-uniform wearing folk is to make absolutely sure that the folks sending our people to war are doing the right thing and to CONSTANTLY stay vigilant and question what they do. This is our duty to our servicemen. From the marines over there who object to the war for instance, they are NOT in a place to practice democracy. It would endanger their own lifes as well as the lives of the folks about them. So, let's get involved, however you feel about the war, but don't go dogging people because they don't see eye to eye with how our military should be used and then say they are not patriotic or American or don't know what they are talking about.

Here to Support the troops with Foresight,
-paco

[longeyes]

Which gauntlet would that be?

If you're talking about my remarks, I said we need to get real and mobilize. If this is a war that will go on for decades, all around the world, then perhaps we should act like it. That's my point. As for the taxes, well, it's possible, you know, that, heaven forfend, the military might actually have to be expanded, at the expense of the consumer, and that more Americans will have to be directly involved in the war effort.

I mean, just if we want to survive, that's all. It's up to us.

We've had forty years of being told that war is not the answer and that we shouldn't hurt anyone's feelings. Is it becoming clear yet that we might have been misinformed?

[Paco]

Not to lighten a serious matter, but I just want to say that EVERYONE has given me a mighty lot to think about. Really. One realizes how this situation is soooo not cut and dry as we'd like it to be. Hapafish-man, as much as I might disagree with what you say, you've got me thinking deep and hard-especially about the whole RKBA thing that is intrinsic in us but maybe not them. Longeyes-I didn't me you. Peace.

-Paco

[fix]

The way I see it, the only we do now is by being there, we keep as many of the bad guys tied up over there as humanly possible.

An important benefit that too many people fail to realize. Islamic radicals will continue to flood into Iraq rather than focusing on coming here, simply because it is much simpler from a logistics perspective. Some may come here, but most will go for the target that is closer to them. Eventually they will concentrate in Iran, so that they can cross the border into Iraq or the Stan to kill Americans. Guess what comes next? A big terrorist sandwich that the Mullahs in Iran will have to take a bite of. Fitting really, when you look at their activities over the course of the last few decades.

[hops]

I just luv the 'that region has been barbaric for 1000's of years' type of thinking, with reference to the middle east.

Seems that most of the Judeo/Christian members on this thread (with apologies to the Athiests and Agnostics) seem to forget that the EUROPE region has been at least, if not more Barbaric for the last 2000 years, too.

I have had the good fortune to have met people from all over the world and have found that I have more incommon with them that I have not.

[Don Gwinn]

This is an important subject that I'd like to have discussed, but there will be no more personal attacks. None. Next one closes the thread.

I hope that is understood by everyone.

[BigG]

I take exception to terming it mutilation. That's the FREE PRESS :rolleyes: trying to inflame the situation. Mutilation would be to living victims. What these dimbulbs did was desecrate corpses. Took no courage or grit whatsoever. They do deserve extermination. :cuss:

[Paco]

Good point Hops. At one point Bagdad was the center of High Civilization. Didn't they invent Algebra and some other very useful and neat things? Didn't Saladin make public bath house, banks that went far and wide, and a public health system? I think they were quite civilized once upon a time and up until the first Gulf War, they were wealthy and educated. Now if one talks about the herdsmen or nomads, well I don't think they've changed at all in a very, very long time, but they've had no need to.

-paco

[Sean Smith]

Taken individually, I think "our" (read: Christian) religious fanatics are just as bad as "their" (read: Muslim) religious fanatics. Fanatics are, essentally, fanatics. However, if you compare the body count in the U.S. in the last, say, 20 years, it is hard to see why they are constantly spoken together in the same breath as if they are problems of equal magnitude. Because, objectively speaking, they aren't. Unless somebody can find, say, 3,000 bodies that some Southern Baptist offshoot waxed when I wasn't looking, I'm hard pressed to see the comparison between kooky Christians and nutty Muslims as anything but an irrelevant distraction.

Yeah, everybody can be naughty. But right now, it is the naughty (self-proclaimed) Muslims that want to kill our asses. Why deny the obvious? When the nutty Lutheran terrorists start racking up a sutibly appalling kill count, I'll be happy to shoot them, too.

[El Rojo]

An important benefit that too many people fail to realize. Islamic radicals will continue to flood into Iraq rather than focusing on coming here, simply because it is much simpler from a logistics perspective. Some may come here, but most will go for the target that is closer to them.This is an interesting point. I don't know how I would feel as a contractor or a soldier about that, but it is seemingly true for us. I don't think Spain and Indonesia would agree. However, it is true, they are softer targets than us and that proves your point that they will stick to what is easiest for them because that is what terrorists do. That is why I don't think we are going to see anymore passenger jets falling out of the skies anytime soon.

Longeyes, All of the great societies have been "war machine" societies, including those which advanced science, art, and law. There's a reason for that, and it hasn't been repealed.Does that include the Soviet Union? How many of those war machine societies are around today? Being a political science major, you need to be careful making a statement that begins with "All". It only takes one example of a "war machine" society that was horrible to make your whole statement false. Anyway, care to list some examples of "war machine" societies that were so great? Maybe Hitler's Germany? They had all sorts of great minds there, too bad they all fled to America during the "war machine" days.

[BigG]

Longeyes, All of the great societies have been "war machine" societies, including those which advanced science, art, and law. There's a reason for that, and it hasn't been repealed.

Interesting point. Here's what another guy had to say c. 1949:

"In Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock." Harry Lime <The Third Man> :D

The Third Man (http://www.epinions.com/mvie-review-5634-E9B6934-38EDFFAA-prod4)

[Paco]

BigG,

It is an interesting point but trading high technology for high morality is the proverbial apple of Eden- knowledge for peace and ignorance. The noble savage against the Corrupt Man of Civilization. For me, we don't need all that high technology especially at the expense of morality or dependence on foreign folk to make our toys for us nice and cheap so everyone can have a 2 TVs, video games, AC, computer, digital clock, 2 cars etc,etc.

Rome essentially borrowed from the lands it conquered: They were like the Borg, or something:D . They assimilated. After WWII, the spoils were the german scientists and prototypes, and blue prints, not the land or resources. Now, it seems that the 'war machine' technology race is no longer useful or desirable. It's capitalism, the open, competeing market, free trade, that spurns us to higher and highe technology IE Buy my car cause it's a little faster than that car AND it makes great apple pie while you drive!

If high technology goes too far ahead of high morality and ability to enforce high morality, then you get into some hot water.

-paco

[longeyes]

El Rojo,

I think I'm on safe ground with that generalization. You'll note that I put "war machine" in quotes; nor was I making a moral judgment about the fact. Advanced war-making capability goes with social organization and technology and can be used for good or ill. Don't blame me, blame our species; this is the way we are. What we do with the power is a whole different issue. My statement, as you aver, isn't false because some of the martial societies were or are rotten or anti-democratic or anti-individualist. Perhaps you can show me an important culture that wasn't, at its core, organized around both self-defense and aggression. When you find one, let me know, and I'll cite that one as "anecdotal." :)

Technology and morality are both at play, Paco, and it's not a choice of one or the other. A lot is happening at once. You know Dickens' line: It was the best of times, it was the worst of times. We are enhancing our abilities to both create and destroy; on balance I believe our own society is far more a creator than a destroyer and that we are, in the main, using our power to advance the light rather than extinguish it.

[Paco]

Longeyes,

Yes you're right: Technology and Morality are both necessary at the same time. I'd like to believe also in equal measure but I think when we grasp some technology that can be used either to create or destroy, we'll usually figure out how it can destroy first-or figure out how it can creat things to help us destroy IE splitting the atom (Iknow, we were at war, but we really let out something special outta pandora's box with that one).

Man is a creature of fear-it's why we conquered the wild world and made extinct numerous animals. That's why we readily slaughter each other for resources even though there's more than enough for everyone in the world, were it properly distributed. One can say its greed or selfishness but I believe the root of it all is fear. Fear of not having-so you take too much, fear of possible injury so you kill too much, just to be sure, and safe. 'I take care of my own and screw everyone else'...

So, since I believe we are a creature riddled with doubt and fear I'd say we need to put more time in our moral stance than our technology. I have great respect for homesteaders out there who make use of technology a notch or two UNDER what's available, and they live fine. They never get to big for their britches and they never grow an appetite for comfort/amenities that is too great and puts a strain on their fellow man or environment.

How does this equate to this thread, well just because we've got the power, or even the fear doesn't mean we have the right. But again I'm not sure what needs to be done-I do know it's not nearly so cut and dry as some folks are painting it to be: Bombs Away and Death to the Islam. Question: has anyone in this thread worked in higher politics-I wonder what's the real take in the inner circles of the White House.

-paco

[longeyes]

And the way to overcome "fear" has been through organization and technology, whether it was at the level of the primitive hunting band or, later, the conglomerated agricultural states. Without the technology to alleviate want and to distribute goods, morality becomes nothing more than a subsistence game to eke out a meager living. Until the last two hundred years the world hadn't really changed much; the standard of living of the average person was pretty much frozen, hadn't advanced in millennia. We need to look closely at where those improvements came from and how. I think we'll find that they emanated from a happy convergence of social, political, cultural, scientific, and religious forces in a relatively small orbit.

I'm not a believer in being "lowly wise," although there's quite a difference between that and willful waste. We don't have to lose our moral bearings because the world continues to offer us more possibilities for our energy and imagination. This forum, with people exchanging ideas instantly from vast distances, is a perfect example of what didn't exist twenty years ago. Had there been no ARPANET we wouldn't be having this conversation now...

[Paco]

I agree, as I type on my keyboard. Obviously I think the lifestyle I live is better than the homesteader, or rather it has more potential, both good and bad. That has alway been the crux of technolgy-greater everything. More latitude, more momentum-kinda like swinging a really heavy bat. That's why we can't let it get away from us and why I advocate CONSTANT vigilance of our gov. while giving CONSTANT emotional support to the fellas in that cauldron of poop over there. Stay the course, but keep checking those bearings.

[ojibweindian]

Just to show everyone what a nice guy Golgo is:

Thank you for your service. As it happens, in the 80's I was a combat engineer. I was also a volunteer fireman for 12 years and have also spent some time as a deputy sheriff. So, unless there is some pressing need to have a dick-waving contest about who did what 10 or 20 years ago, let's confine ourselves to right now.

You're the tough-talking mother????er who says he's willing to kill women, children, and old people in the course of wiping out a city. Go do it. If you're too old for the military, go as a "civilian" contractor or just go on your own. It shouldn't be too difficult for a hard, tough, resourceful guy like you to get in-country, one way or another. In the meantime, why don't you shut the ???? up and stop embarassing yourself and the whole board?

p.s. The dick-waving you felt compelled to do in the thread served no purpose but to make you look more foolish. There is such an overwhelmingly large population of former and present-service military at THR that bragging about military service only makes one look insecure.

From a string of PMs sent to me in the past few hours.

And with that, y'all can do with me what you will.

[Paco]

Aren't PM's supposed to be private and between you and the other person? I'm new here so please let me in on the skinny.

[fix]

:uhoh:

[ojibweindian]

Yep, but the viciousness of this attack by Golgo prompted me to print it. I fully expect to be booted from this site for this (I hope I'm not), but I will not stand for this kind of attack on me by him to go un-noticed.

[Daniel T]

*Self-edited.*

That is underhanded and is not in line with morals you have claimed to hold in the past, namely Christian ones.

[fix]

I would recommend some "self editing" elsewhere, rather than letting this live forever.

[Brian Dale]

Paco,—yeah, that's customary.

jib—I've seen a lot of posts from you that shared real insight. Seriously.

The late gun writer and professional hunter Finn Aagard once wrote, or said, "Why do men fight? They fight because they like to."

[Powderman]

Here's a possible solution--i.e., what I would do if I were the man in charge:

1. Send a message, via all possible media, to those in Iraq. Tell them to pay close attention to their portion of the sky at a specific time. Make sure that it's dark out, as in the dead of night.

2. Notify our NATO allies, and all others in the region.

3. At the specified time, light off an extremely high-altitude nuclear weapon--say, about 100,000 feet up, in the megaton range.

4. Warn the Iraqis that ANY more atrocities against Americans or foreign personnel WILL result in the immediate detonation of one of those (somewhat smaller than that, but don't let them know) devices against the city or region where the attack took place.

5. During the preparation phase for all of this, get every inch of footage that was taken of the mutilation and display of bodies. Obtain still photographs of all possible who were cheering or participating. Distribute those photos to combat units.

6. As a part of the announcement, notify the city of Fallujah that they have one hour to give those participants over to American authorities. If they are handed over, fine. Give them a fair trial.

7. For those who are not handed over forthwith, conduct a house-to-house, room-to-room search of the city. Place a cordon around the city prior to this happening. Anyone attempting to escape other than through established checkpoints will be shot on sight. No quarter.

8. When any who participated in the atrocities are found, they will be taken to the street, shot, and left there. No quarter.

If they want to play, fine! But, from now on, we should make the rules.

[fix]

I say we just tell the Blackwater boys that the interim administration is willing to look the other way for a few weeks, while they go get a little payback of their own.

[Sean Smith]

At the specified time, light off an extremely high-altitude nuclear weapon--say, about 100,000 feet up, in the megaton range.

Somebody obviously hasn't heard of EMP. :eek:

[Powderman]

The effects of EMP can be minimized, as long as all sensitive equipment (anything that is not adequately shielded) is momentarily disconnected before the burst, and reconnected after the burst.

[TaurusCIA]

We have to have a balance. I don't have all of the answers, but I do know blowing everyone to hell is not the best solution. Reality, we will never kill all of the terrorists. New soldiers are recruited everyday. So when is this war on terror going to end? Probably the same time as the war on drugs and the war on crime. Damn that sucks.

So let's just quit and go home. These guys are just too mean to mess with.


Idd,
Interesting link, however can you prove that this policy was carried out?

If you don't have concrete, detailed and irrefutable proof of this then you're making some very heavy allegations that aren't true.

-Jim

Jim, did this really suprise you?

[Waitone]

More details are now available that shed a little more light on the subject.

Seems the US withdrew its presence from Fallujah area. Used to be the 82nd airborne was in the area but since the changeover took place the Marines have not been a constant fixture.

Assuming that is correct, I want to know who the rocket scientist was in the coalition who thought it possible to ignore an open septic tank of bathist goons. Did we come down with a bad case of PC? Did we adopt "Why just can't we all get along. . . "

If any of this is true one more body needs to be hung from the bridge; the idiot who thought it a good idea to remove force from the area.

Again, if true, the blood of those Americans is rightly on the hands of the idiot who issued the orders.

Again, if my assumption is true.

[TaurusCIA]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
An important benefit that too many people fail to realize. Islamic radicals will continue to flood into Iraq rather than focusing on coming here, simply because it is much simpler from a logistics perspective. Some may come here, but most will go for the target that is closer to them.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is an interesting point. I don't know how I would feel as a contractor or a soldier about that

If I was still in I would rather fight them there than have them go to America where my loved ones would be more at risk. Since I have the training and it is my job (the one I signed up for) then I think maybe I should do it and not ask untrained civilians to do it for me at home.

[fix]

There has been no withdrawal of forces. It's merely a case of the insurgents trying to prove something to the "new sheriff in town" while they are in the middle of the turnover. Methinks they will regret that move. The big hammer is about to swing.

[Brian Dale]

The big hammer is about to swing.That's it.

[hops]

Waitone - you are right in that someone on the other side is taking advantage of our shifting of forces. However, I would stop short of blame on the person who issued the orders to shift our forces. Takes time to restablish the contacts made by the former unit - even if there was a good turn over. The new unit still has to learn the ropes of the region. WSJ had a piece on this a month or so ago.

Once the new units get the ropes they'll be able to swing the hammer correctly and get those who comitted the acts, while not being indiscriminate in the application of the hammer.

We are winning in Iraq - slowly but surely. We just do not get to read about it - well the WSJ has done a good job but I can't post all their articles on this subject.

[Hkmp5sd]

Four US mercenaries are torched, dismembered and hung in Iraq

by Ernesto Cienfuegos, La Voz de Aztlan

Los Angeles, Alta California - March 31, 2004 - (ACN) In a scene reminiscent of George Romero's "The Night of the Living Dead", four US mercenaries suffered a horrific and gruesome death at the hands of about 30 Iraqis near the town of Fallujah early this morning. The four US mercenaries employed by Blackwater Security Consulting where traveling in two SUV vehicles when they were ambushed and their vehicles set on fire. A large crowd of angry Iraqis approached the torched vehicles with shovels and rocks and pulled the four charred corpses out onto the roadway. Two of the bodies where dragged throughout the town's streets. The other two were dismembered and one was decapitated. Two of the torsos were then taken to a bridge that crosses the Euphrates River and hung like animals. The crowd, in addition, took one leg and one arm, tied ropes on them with a rock on each end, then swung both of them over electric power lines.

The Pentagon is running out of soldiers and has been forced to hire paid mercenaries it calls "security consultants". A major Pentagon contract is held by Blackwater USA out of Moyock, North Carolina (http://www.blackwaterusa.com). Blackwater Security Consulting, a company of Blackwater USA, has been hired to guard Iraqi oil wells against attack by insurgents and to provide security for the US occupation administrator Paul Bremer. The four mercenaries horribly killed today in Fallujah were employed by Blackwater Security Consulting.

http://aztlan.net/torched_hung.htm

[fix]

aztlan?

I would expect nothing less from the folks who are planning to start a little intifada of their own. :barf:

[Drjones]

Originally posted by Sean Smith:

Taken individually, I think "our" (read: Christian) religious fanatics are just as bad as "their" (read: Muslim) religious fanatics. Fanatics are, essentally, fanatics. However, if you compare the body count in the U.S. in the last, say, 20 years, it is hard to see why they are constantly spoken together in the same breath as if they are problems of equal magnitude. Because, objectively speaking, they aren't. Unless somebody can find, say, 3,000 bodies that some Southern Baptist offshoot waxed when I wasn't looking, I'm hard pressed to see the comparison between kooky Christians and nutty Muslims as anything but an irrelevant distraction.

Yeah, everybody can be naughty. But right now, it is the naughty (self-proclaimed) Muslims that want to kill our asses. Why deny the obvious? When the nutty Lutheran terrorists start racking up a sutibly appalling kill count, I'll be happy to shoot them, too.

This bears repeating.

[idd]

Interesting link, however can you prove that this policy was carried out? If you don't have concrete, detailed and irrefutable proof of this then you're making some very heavy allegations that aren't true.

Yes. See James Bovard, Terrorism and Tyranny: Trampling Freedom, Justice and Peace to Rid the World of Evil, Chapter 13, "Iraq and the War on Terrorism." See also "The Enemy as a System" (http://tinyurl.com/ys8p3) by Air Force Colonel John Warden III, published in the Air Force's Airpower Journal in 1995.

[clubsoda22]

After i heared these guys were mercanaries i got a whole lot less pissed. I'm still pissed that these people who are so called "religious" would treat a body like that and my heart goes out to the families, but mercanaries aren't supposed to get prisoner of war benefits, they're supposed to be exicuted. I hope these guys knew what they were getting themselves into.

[TBeck]

They weren't "mercenaries," they were private security guards hired by the Occupation Authority. Some or all of them may have been retired or former military, but they were not performing soldierly duties. They were simply there to guard food convoys from thugs.

Just like Somalia; "The infidels are trying to feed our children and improve our standard of living! Kill them all!"

[csmkersh]

HERE (http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/pictures033104.html) are some pics from yesterdays murders in Iraq. They're not for kids or the squemish.

And HERE (http://www.mafhoum.com/press2/63P58.htm) another article that I find appropriate. Pay close attention to the last sentence of the first paragraph.

[longeyes]

I don't care for the nuclear option. Let's save that for "later on."

My vote goes with the Mass Sedation approach. Benign, non-lethal, already battle-tested in the inner city and various prisons. Make everyone in the Sunni Triangle operate in ultra-slow-motion until further notice. Besides, it will generate additional income for our pharmaceutical industry.:D

[TaurusCIA]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Interesting link, however can you prove that this policy was carried out? If you don't have concrete, detailed and irrefutable proof of this then you're making some very heavy allegations that aren't true.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


And we are still waiting. Concrete proof.

Not a theory, not a plan, not a model but hard verifiable facts from a reputable source. Facts that state that the chemicals etc, that have a dual use potential where really withheld as part of the blueprint for genocide against the people of Iraq.


Steps have been taken to assure dual-use items are not diverted, Hall noted; on its projects, UNICEF follows the United Nations' three-tier monitoring system to ensure equipment and supplies are used as they are intended. "I trust that you will factor in the significant improvement in safeguards," he wrote to Albright, "and I urge you to weigh your decision against the disease and death that are the unavoidable result of not having safe drinking water and minimum levels of sanitation."

Link (http://www.commondreams.org/news2000/0628-05.htm)

I personally would not trust a humanitarian relief organization to be able to control what happens to supplies after they are delivered.

[TaurusCIA]

After i heared these guys were mercanaries

Do you always believe what you hear? I normally try to wait for some context to give the information credibility.

They were contracted to help provide security. Would it make any difference if they were contracted to fix oil rigs instead of guard food.

Some folks will do anything they can to spin against our being in Iraq. Consider their motives and methods well before you buy into their spin.

[Gabe]

3 were former Army SF, one was Naval SW. Pretty much all Blackwater consultants are former operators, and usually the ones with the best reputations. They are as professional as they get. There are currently 15,000 security consultants in Iraq, more than the number of British troops in country. Government organizations, private corporations, humanitarian organizations all hire these consultants. There was a recent story that the British SAS is hemoraging men to the private sector.

Blackwater is one of the bigger outfits and provide body guards for Bremer and other VIPs. Their job includes consultation and training for coalition forces and guard duties. Basically they do everything their active duty special ops comrades do except actual combat. But they are armed and fight back when attacked.

They aren't "mercenaries" in the traditional sense. They are employees of the US government. In this case the four men were responsible for doing security for food delivery when they were ambushed.

[Gabe]

Unbelievable, it seems Scott Helvenston was the ex-SEAL killed yesterday. Anybody remember him from "Combat Missions"?

[hapafish]

Gabe, could you provide a link on Scott Helveston's death, and another on the military backgrounds of the four killed? Thanks much.

[El Rojo]

See you get people on here like Powderman who just aren't playing in reality. Threaten to use a nuclear device on a city? Where does all of this bravado come from? Then in his scenario we don't even use it, we go in with troops and don't even follow through. I guess I am expecting some good discussion from the High Road about real possibilities, not what my big egotistical, bad arse self would like to do.

When are we going to get it? We are not like other countries. We try not to indiscriminately kill millions of people to get our way. We have in the past when that was the only means to the end. Now that is not the only means to the end. Plus, will it work? If the US Government decided to outlaw guns and said, "The city of Omaha has one hour to hand over all gun owners or we are going to blow the entire city to hell", how would you respond? Turn in your neighbor? Then once you are done blowing Omaha all to hell, you have to go to Phoenix next. And to every city in America after that. Blowing everyone away in order to get them to comply. How many gun owning American's would respond well to this show of force?

Force is not everything. It is important when used properly. However, you cannot make a people submit by force and expect them to cooperate with you indefinitely afterwards. Sorry, it just isn't going to happen. Ask the Soviets about that one.

You can however kill anyone who took a direct part and kill everyone else who takes part afterwards. You still need to talk to the rest of the populace and try and persuade them that it isn't worth taking that risk. This is pretty similar to what I am advocating against, with the exception that you let people make a choice and then you kill them. You just don't kill everyone and tell them "Tough luck, you shouldn't have lived next to terrorists." That makes all of the families of the innocent people you killed want to kill you. How many people do we plan on killing over there? Based on the ideas of some people here, all of them. I don't want to take over Iraq, if you do, move on over. Otherwise lets think of productive ways we can get the Iraqis to take their damn country back over and get us the hell out of there for the next 50 years until it is time to go back again. :mad:

[clubsoda22]

um, blackwater hasn't released any names....

[hapafish]

-El Rojo See you get people on here like Powderman who just aren't playing in reality. Threaten to use a nuclear device on a city? Where does all of this bravado come from? Then in his scenario we don't even use it, we go in with troops and don't even follow through. I guess I am expecting some good discussion from the High Road about real possibilities, not what my big egotistical, bad arse self would like to do.

This thread is taking a lot of pennies out of my pocket, but since I started the whole Hiroshima-Nagasaki thing I should clarify.

I didn't advocate using the nuclear option on Fallujah. I brought out that whole reference to atomics because I beliebe that America should be prepared to do whatever it takes to end this war for its very survival. This whole "oh but we don't kill innocents" line is bulls%&t. Innocents get clipped in every war. America stands apart because unlike empires of the past, it takes the High Road and puts the preservation of life and human liberty for all, even its enemies, foremost. I don't think any empire before save the Toltecs, who used blunt weapons to stun their enemies in war without killing, has taken that position and enshrined it.

It would be very easy for me to take the line that the "big, bad imperialist Americans" are to blame for all of the world's ills like the rest of the "barbarians" overseas, but I don't because I understand that America has done what it has done because it needed to be done, and no more. America needed to incinerate two cities with atomics because it needed to take those extreme measures to end the prosecution of a ruinous war that would have killed millions. If I, the descendant of mortal enemies, can understand that and accept it, I find it unbelievable that native-born Americans now shy away from it.

Like it or not, this is a "thousand year war." I've heard enough of this being a "Crusaders vs Islam" struggle to know that it isn't going to end tomorrow just because we pull out. Every lack of resolve, every weakness, every unanswered atrocity makes it all the more necessary for America to up the ante to finish the war.

At various points before, given the option to do more with far less, America has backed away from it because national resolve was not up to the measures that were needed. So like malignant cancer, terrorist organizations, nuclear proliferation, and rogue states have spread, and now we're paying the price for decades of letting a%^holes kidnap our citizens, hijack our planes, bomb our buildings, murder our troops, and for us not doing a damn thing about it, except for a show of strength from a strong president here and there. All it took was one bombing raid put Qaddafi out of business, but instead of taking notes from that all-too-brief lesson and meeting threats with overwhelming strength, the American public chooses to show the world that it is totally ok for terrorists to keep on hitting us, because the cries of "bring the boys home" and "don't hurt those poor third world people" will prevail.

For America to have to launch a full-scale invasion of both Afghanistan and Iraq is in itself a colossal failure of national policy. It is a failure born of weak-stomached public opinion, that made terrorists ever since Beirut '83 that if you hit Americans, they would fold like origami, and run. That lesson got reinforced over and over again, until we got 9/11. It took the First and Second Gulf Wars to convince the world that a full-on conventional war with America means death. Every other major enemy, like Communist China and North Korea, notches down its aggressive foreign policy in deference to American strength.

When are we going to get it? We are not like other countries. We try not to indiscriminately kill millions of people to get our way. We have in the past when that was the only means to the end. Now that is not the only means to the end.

No, America is the only nation that has actually killed millions of people for a better end. Every communist killed in Asia, every fascist killed in Germany and Japan, meant that the line held, Fascism died, the Soviets never tried for an open confrontation, and America remained safe. There is a lot about American history that leaves a bitter taste in my mouth, but the sacrifices of American fighting men isn't one of them.

Plus, will it work? If the US Government decided to outlaw guns and said, "The city of Omaha has one hour to hand over all gun owners or we are going to blow the entire city to hell", how would you respond? Turn in your neighbor? Then once you are done blowing Omaha all to hell, you have to go to Phoenix next. And to every city in America after that. Blowing everyone away in order to get them to comply. How many gun owning American's would respond well to this show of force?

That's America. Try that on a nation of freedom-loving, independent-thinking people. If the US Government tried to disarm all of Iraq in the first few weeks during the invasion, it would have been a lot easier than now. When I advocated disarming the Iraqi citizenry, I didn't advocate using the threat of "cordon-and-annihilate" to get compliance. Use enough troops, and I believe that we can still get a good proportion of the caches. A zero tolerance policy, done right, will go a very long way.

Force is not everything. It is important when used properly. However, you cannot make a people submit by force and expect them to cooperate with you indefinitely afterwards. Sorry, it just isn't going to happen. Ask the Soviets about that one.

I recall the various Soviet Republics submitted quite readily to rule from Moscow for the better part of a century, to the point where mass population movements were done without a murmur. I don't recall violent revolution being at the center of the collapse of the USSR. It was more like kids in daycare seeing the door open and making a run for the street.

Force followed by firm and just measures is the only answer we've got. Rational negotiations, speeches, and half-hearted police actions alone are going to reinforce the "Americans are weak" delusion and encourage more hits against us. The state of affairs as it stands is "die Ameriki, die." I hardly think that projecting "what would Americans do?" onto Iraqi behavior is neither appropriate or even remotely realistic. The common language of human relations is force. This is what they understand. They don't understand democracy, they don't understand Western economics, and they certainly don't care about anything other than getting rich and killing us off. Anyone care to discuss how we can make the citizens of Fallujah feel better about life and cooperate with us by going over there to talk it over with them, be my guest.

You can however kill anyone who took a direct part and kill everyone else who takes part afterwards. You still need to talk to the rest of the populace and try and persuade them that it isn't worth taking that risk. This is pretty similar to what I am advocating against, with the exception that you let people make a choice and then you kill them. You just don't kill everyone and tell them "Tough luck, you shouldn't have lived next to terrorists." That makes all of the families of the innocent people you killed want to kill you. How many people do we plan on killing over there? Based on the ideas of some people here, all of them. I don't want to take over Iraq, if you do, move on over. Otherwise lets think of productive ways we can get the Iraqis to take their damn country back over and get us the hell out of there for the next 50 years until it is time to go back again.

Did it occur to anyone that this event was staged just like Mogadishu? You think that camera crew was allowed to be there by those a%&holes so that we'd all see the images and the American public, just like in Somalia, would lose heart for this war, back out, and then we'd get another 9/11 on our watch? Media savviness from terrorists. Nothing new. Think of Hanoi Jane playing fiddle for the NVA.

Since we have all that wonderful footage, let's see if we can snag all those SOBs on tape and hammer them to ruin. Then it's a real, real strong firm hand on the tiller after that. If you think that "persuasion" is the way to go, more power to you. There method of persuasion is killing us overseas, and at home. I think the smoking crater of the WTC I saw on Christmas 2001 on leave was enough of a message. I think the murders we're talking about in this thread of American citizens is enough of a reminder. I really didn't want to take over Iraq and I really don't want to "move on over" but I did exactly that, for a year, because I believed in my C-in-C and I believed in him being strong enough to stay the course and keep us in the fight. I still do. I know better than believe that MOABs and cluster munitions will save the day, but damn, isn't the very survival of this nation worth a little committment to a hard cause instead of saying "let's high tail it out of there, I don't like what I see on TV"?

I expect to get roundly flamed ... still ... and that is enough from me for tonight. For everyone who thinks I am too long on the soapbox, I'm sorry. I really think so too. You all have a good night.

Peace out.

[Gabe]

hapafish,

The fallen are these three gents plus one unidentified. I have no specifics of their service record.

Michael Teague 38
Jerry Zovko 32
Scott Helvenston 38


http://www.ajc.com/news/content/news/ap/ap_story.html/Intl/AP.V8050.AP-Civilian-Deaths.html

[Travis McGee]

Scott Helvenston, Navy SEAL, R.I.P.

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040402/capt.florl20104020252.civilian_deaths_florl201.jpg

[hapafish]

Gabe, thanks for the link. I have nothing else to say.

Prayers for the fallen. Peace out.

[Gabe]

Here's a mini bio from the "Combat Missions" website from 2 years back:

NAME: SCOTT HELVENSTON
AGE: 35
HOMETOWN: Oceanside, CA
EXPERIENCE: Navy SEAL, 1982-1994
RANK: E-6/QM


CAREER HIGHLIGHTS:
Youngest-ever graduate of BUD/S (17 years old)
Deployed four times
Served as Free Fall instructor for four years


He and his wife has a fitness business. He said at the time they were having problems making mortgage payments and signed up for the show to promote their fitness videos. Mark Burnett asked him to do another show which he turned down. It's weird how life turns out


His business website:

SEAL Training (http://www.sealtraining.com/index.php?)

[45 Carry]

This is a direct challange to the USA. We were attacted on 9/11 because they thought we were a bunch of pussies. They (Al-Kida) (sic) had seen how Former President Clinton handled things and expected nothing like President Bush's reaction. They now think thier stuff doesn't stink and they are Allah's gift to the world. We need to react with swift, furious vengence to these attrocities. That will show them who God's gift is. I know this sound like something out of Ezekial or Pulp Fiction.

[idd]

And we are still waiting. Concrete proof.

I gave you the sources. Go knock yourself out.

[joab]

We need to react with swift, furious vengence to these attrocities. That will show them who God's gift is. I know this sound like something out of Ezekial or Pulp Fiction.

USA Today
"We will respond," said Kimmitt, the U.S.-led coalition's top military spokesman. "It will be deliberate and precise and be overwhelming ... We will kill them or we will capture them."



Scott Helvenston was the guy who trained Demi Moore for G I Jane

[TaurusCIA]

idd, I will say it real slow for you this time.


We are still waiting for Concrete proof

Not a theory, not a plan, not a model but hard verifiable facts from a reputable source. Facts that state that the chemicals etc, that have a dual use potential where really withheld as part of the blueprint for genocide against the people of Iraq.


Sling the mud and run.

"Just trust my sources."

[Drjones]

I think this link needs to be re-posted: http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/pictures033104.html

Pay close attention to the smiles and look of sheer joy on their faces as they desecrate the corpses.

I also think that this paragraph from the link csmkersh posted needs to be posted here. Read it very carefully:

In February 1982 the secular Syrian government of President Hafez al-Assad faced a mortal threat from Islamic extremists, who sought to topple the Assad regime. How did it respond? President Assad identified the rebellion as emanating from Syria's fourth-largest city — Hama — and he literally leveled it, pounding the fundamentalist neighborhoods with artillery for days. Once the guns fell silent, he plowed up the rubble and bulldozed it flat, into vast parking lots. Amnesty International estimated that 10,000 to 25,000 Syrians, mostly civilians, were killed in the merciless crackdown. Syria has not had a Muslim extremist problem since.

[Waitone]

Actually the number was closer to 40,000 dead.

[idd]

We are still waiting for Concrete proof

Which part of Chapter 13 from Terrorism and Tyranny: Trampling Freedom, Justice and Peace to Rid the World of Evil was difficult for you?

Oh wait, you haven't even bothered to read it, right? So nevermind.

[Paco]

Are you guys using what happened in Syria as a justification for extermination or a general strike of retribution? 40,000 people, gentlemen. That's a stadium full.

I live in NYC: I saw LIVE the towers go down and the people jumping and then the sounds of their bodies hitting and I don't think the way to honor their memory is to indiscriminately bomb a whole bunch of people and then really think that that will wrap things up in a nice clean package and that our country will be safe.

Surgical strikes gentlemen, that's the key IMHO. It bears repeating that we are fighting an ideology, an attitude and that cannot be defeated conventionally. We certainly can't enact the "Final Solution" as some have suggested. The thought process must be changed and that change can't be forced. In the meanwhile, yes, go and capture/kill those responsible but to punish folks cheering something in their ignorance?

I've seen sooo many picture through out the years of AMericans cheering when we blew up some people or soldiers gloating over their kill in picture of Vietnam or even Klan members, kids and all looking up and smiling at the hanging black man. Picture of German citizentry cheering on the slaughtter of Jews and Allies while reading books made of human flesh. We all know the creepy,sad history of the human race. We're not all that different from these people. Look at all the commentary about the all the cruel things folks wanna do back to those people, and we're the well-fed, well educated, mighty ones...Stay strong, stay the course, but stay on the Highroad.

-paco

[RustyHammer]

Here is a link to the LA Times article on the attack and mutilation of the four Americans.

It also has link to the movie that shows the trucks and bodies and documents much of what happened to them after the news crew arrived. It is very graphic.

(Note: registration, which is FREE, is required on the LA Times site.)

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/iraq/la-033104iraq_lat,1,4269296.story?coll=la-home-headlines


May their souls rest in peace.

[Paco]

Had another thought, before I forget, and I want to bid everyone a safe and prosperous weekend:

-Israel is an interesting case, and their plight definitely gets me thinking about how they handle things and how we might learn off their errors and their successes.

-They've, as a people, been fighting the Muslim hate for essentially a few thousand years. They are very militaristic: ALL people of age serve in the military. They are very well equipped and very well trained with some of the best intel. folk and fighter pilots, and light infantry in the world. They get attacked by acts of terrorism about every month. They are not afraid. They have no qualms about defending themselves. Some say they even have nuclear capacity. Despite ALL this, ya don't see these folks wanting to raze the palistinians to the ground nor any of the other Arab states who have actively aggressed against them in the last 50 years.

-They really, really try to maintain their humanity in the face of appalling hatred. They're learned their lesson and don't forget history. As much as I disagree with a lot of what they do, I've got oodles of respect for them. Let's pray for a quick end to all this crap. See ya!

[Eskimo Jim]

After seeing the pictures that Csmkersh posted a link to, I find it very hard to be concerned about what happens to any native in the town where that happened.

What those 'people' did to those four civilians is dispicable. I don't even care if the four civilians were armed to the teeth etc., what was done to their bodies after they were killed is literally appalling and repugnant.

IDD, I don't care if we did bomb their water treatment facilities anymore.

-Jim

[BamBam-31]

Oh, God. I've seen Scott on TV. Now I feel sick....

[TaurusCIA]

By the end of the 1990s, the infant-morality rate in Iraq was triple prewar levels. Denis Halliday, the UN administrator of the oil-for-food program, resigned in 1998 and denounced the sanctions as “nothing less than genocide.” Seventy members of Congress sent a letter to President Clinton in early 2000 condemning the Iraq sanctions as “infanticide masquerading as policy.” Columbia University Professor Richard Garfield, an epidemiologist and an expert on the effects of sanctions, estimated in 2003 that the sanctions had resulted in 343,900 to 529,000 infant and young-child fatalities.

The Neocon War on Peace and Freedom, Part 2
by James Bovard , May 2004 (Posted February 20, 2004) Link (http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0405c.asp)

Iraq should not have started the war to begin with and when they lost they should have listened to the US and UN and came clean with their leftover weapons and then the sanctions would have ended. Too hard to follow??


Which part of Chapter 13 from Terrorism and Tyranny: Trampling Freedom, Justice and Peace to Rid the World of Evil was difficult for you?

I think since you a posted alleging genocide that you should at least make a case. Yet you ask me to go by your buddies book and thus support your propaganda with my money. And this to disprove a point that you have yet to prove.

If you want anyone to take you seriously, at least quote the part of the book that lends such great credibility to your position. Heck even paraphrase it. Just give us something to prove the conection here.

Not a theory, not a plan, not a model but hard verifiable facts from a reputable source. Facts that show that the chemicals etc, that have a dual use potential where really withheld as part of the blueprint for genocide against the people of Iraq.


Steps have been taken to assure dual-use items are not diverted, Hall noted; on its projects, UNICEF follows the United Nations' three-tier monitoring system to ensure equipment and supplies are used as they are intended. "I trust that you will factor in the significant improvement in safeguards," he wrote to Albright, "and I urge you to weigh your decision against the disease and death that are the unavoidable result of not having safe drinking water and minimum levels of sanitation."

Link (http://www.commondreams.org/news2000/0628-05.htm)


I personally would not trust a humanitarian relief organization to be able to control what happens to supplies after they are delivered.

[Powderman]

Sure, let's go ahead and let these guys get away with it. Sure, let's seek a "diplomatic" solution.

Why not tell them that we "feel their pain", while we're at it?

GARBAGE!! HORSE MANURE!! :cuss: :cuss: :fire:

Don't you folks get it?

If someone kills a member of your family IN FRONT OF YOUR FACE, and/or is in a position to use deadly force against a member of your family, would you reason with them? Would you wait until the act was committed, then give good testimony to the police?

I would hope NOT!!

You don't reason with ANIMALS!!!

The time for talk is OVER!

Give the residents of Fallujah a couple of hours to evacuate.

Then bomb that city into the Stone Age!

Search and observe each and every resident. If you find ANYONE who was featured in that movie, ESPECIALLY those who were beating and dragging those bodies, BLOW THEIR HEADS OFF ON THE SPOT!!!

We do NOT need to play pattycake with these people.

I took an oath at one time to defend this Nation against all enemies, foreign and domestic. I am still bound by that oath, until the day I die.

If I could, I would personally hunt down these animals, and kill them! With pleasure!!!

Let's see how loud those animals would laugh with about 20 or 30 MOAB's dropped on their city as they watch, followed by about 30 B52 loads of 1000 lb. GP and incendiary bombs.

May the souls who lost their lives on that day rest in peace. My most fervent wish is that they died quickly.

[Waitone]

<Poster's Comment--Tammy Bruce is a hero (heroine) to a lot of RKBA'ers. Talk about messin' with sterotypes. Anyhow she has an interesting historical perspective.>

http://www.frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=12852

Raze Fallujah

By Tammy Bruce
FrontPageMagazine.com | April 2, 2004

The latest reminder of the type of brutality that has ruled Iraq under the thumb of Saddam Hussein is in the action of his supporters, and their al-Qaeda mentors, in Fallujah. The murder and desecration of the bodies of American contractors reminds us that, while the Iraqis everywhere appreciate and support their liberation, there are a few rats who would prefer a return to the hell of Saddam’s depraved tyranny.

Fallujah has remained a hotbed of support for the brutal past regime, and for reasons that can only be explained by political correctness, we have not, up to this point, destroyed that base of murder, terrorism and bestial violence.

I contend it is now time to raze Fallujah.

I’ll remind you of what it took to quell the beasts of Germany and Japan in 1945: complete and total destruction. There was a reason why we bombed Dresden into oblivion. There was a reason why Berlin was not saved. There was a reason why two atomic bombs had to be dropped on Japan after Hiroshima: they still refused to surrender unconditionally.

Beasts of violence and destruction understand one thing: destruction. The media, of course, are comparing the Fallujah horror with Mogadishu. Almost with gleeful hysteria, the Left and their water boys, the mainstream media, seem desperate to cast this as Mogadishu. Why? To make George W. Bush look bad, that’s why. Because they revel in horror. Because they need Americans to be just like them. We must see a pit like Fallujah as Saddam's last bunker. The time for political correctness, worry about inflaming the situation, and restraint, are over. This is war. The people of Fallujah have decided to continue the war, so it should indeed be visited upon them with no mercy.

But consider this inane comment to the New York Times by Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, chief spokesman for the American military command in Iraq, as he tried to explain why American forces have yet to enter the city:

"I think that there was a well-thought-out decision on the part of the Marines that let's not rush headlong into there, there may be ambushes set up a pre-emptive attack into the city could have taken a bad situation and made it even worse."

Really? With this kind of response, if Kimmitt was making decisions in April 1945, perhaps we would have simply put a fence around Berlin in an effort not to inflame Hitler.

Really, now, how can we make a situation where Americans have been murdered, set aflame and their bodies dragged through the streets and hung from a bridge worse?

Let’s be honest here. The violent only understand violence. Gentility emboldens them. Kindness disgusts them. And it should. Even the barbaric have no respect for being handled with care. Even they know they should be destroyed.

Kimmitt is now making noises that we will be teaching Fallujah a lesson. What that would be from the man who didn’t want to make the situation worse I can’t imagine. Kimmitt should be reminded of Dresden, Berlin, Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The brutal respond to and understand brutal might, especially when it is delivered by the decent.

This is a good time to remember, however, the difference between the Clinton and Bush administrations. Bill Clinton was afraid and retreated out of Somalia, which as we know, is what so empowered bin Laden and made him feel Americans would cower when confronted.

We now know bin Laden was behind the Somali warlord in Mogadishu, and when we turned and ran like frightened rabbits, did that help the world situation? Was our cowardice then supposed to help save American lives? While it was supposed to, it did quite the opposite on September 11, 2001. Three thousand Americans died, mostly civilians, because the American military, neutered by a terrified Clinton government, told the beasts that we have no character, no conviction. Clinton, soft and afraid, told bin Laden that Americans were soft and afraid.

For those of you conflicted, ask yourself, would World War II have ended more quickly if we threw up our hands and said, oh let Hitler have it! Yes, of course. And then what? The disease of Hitler would have metastasized to our homeland, replete, no doubt, with smiling German-speaking Frenchmen leading the charge. After all, so many Jews, so little time!

Were we not supposed to know the consequences of showing the Radical Islamist animals our underside? Did we not understand, despite examples through thousands of years, that murderous despots and terrorists are never appeased, they are made more bold by the retreat of the decent?

Of course, we knew, but we are apt to take our President’s lead when it comes to what is right. Even today, we have just learned that Clinton knew of the Hutus "final solution" in Rwanda, and the genocide of Tutsis that took place. For years Clinton denied knowing the scope of the slaughter.

Now, intelligence reports obtained using the U.S. Freedom of Information Act show Clinton knew of the genocide with his senior officials privately using the word within 16 days of the start of the killings, but chose not to do so publicly. Why? Because the president had already decided not to intervene because he remained terrified of "another Mogadishu."

With these reports, it appears the legacy of our first "black president" is that he chose to ignore the murderous slaughter of 800,000 black people.

We must decide what we’re made of because how we handle the barbarians in Iraq will send a message to beasts everywhere. Are we to be like George W. Bush or Bill Clinton? It's an easy question. Just ask Rwanda's surviving Tutsis who they prefer we be like.

I wonder, as Clinton sits around his office with his cigars, Hillary (or some other woman. It really doesn¹t matter, does it?) and John Kerry, does he ever wonder what it’s like to be hacked to death with a machete? Heck, why do I even ask this of a man whose only concern has been with women whose limbs can do him some good?

Today’s Democrats, who are Clinton’s Democrats, still have no stomach to do what’s right. Why not? Because they cannot see beyond themselves and wanting to save their own skin. The malignant narcissists who run the Democratic Party and American leftists who control our culture, feel there is nothing worth fighting for except their own power.

Facing down the depraved takes courage, perseverance and the resolve to put the bad guys where they belong. We did not leave the world to the Germans because we’re better than that. And we will not leave the world to the Islamists, because we are still better than that. No matter how much nihilistic American leftists and the media would prefer us to return to the days of fear and cowardice, we will still refuse to be like them.

[El Rojo]

Powderman. You are not dealing in reality. First you say give everyone a couple of hours to evacuate. Ok, fine, the residents of Fallujah flee, we bomb the hell out city empty or filled with slow people. Great. Now you want to search everyone of the residents in the city of Fallujah to find out who might have been there. Great, most of them have already left the city, but sure lets do that. According to this article (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/EI26Ak02.html), Fallujah has nearly 500,000 residents. So now we have to search what is left of what was once 500,000 residents, but is now about 100K-200K less people because they didn't all leave in time and some of them slipped out of the dragnet. So we have the Marines go and search all 300,000 to 400,000 residents of Fallujah, using the images captured from TV to find all of the people who were present. Now I haven't just spent several months in Iraq, so maybe it is easier for the troops there to easily distinguish by TV pictures exactly who is who and make positive IDs of the people in the photos and on TV. Then those who are "confirmed" get their heads "blown off on the spot". Sounds like a great and fair idea of justice.

WHY AM I THE ONLY ONE TIRED OF THIS NONSENSE!!! Lets wake up and live in reality. The government already said they are going to use a deliberate plan, find the people who did this, and deal with them accordingly. That sounds first of all realistic, fair, and just.

Don't you get it Powderman. No one on here has said lets let them go. No one said use diplomacy. We all think the responsible people ought to be brought to justice. Justice that includes either death in a gun fight or death by firing squad later. What we don't get is why so many people like you throw reality out the window and get all blood thirsty for everyone to die. Yeah those pictures piss me off. I hope the people that did it find justice.

[Jokerman]

"Syria has not had a Muslim extremist problem since."

Well, what also happened "since" makes it obvious to me why they haven't had an extremist problem, without having to look to this action as the cause. They've sponsored Hamas and Hezbollah since. So from Israel's point-of-view, Syria most certainly still has a Muslim extremist problem.

So instead of leveling Fallujah, if the US wants to stop further attacks, we should start sponsoring Hamas and Hezbollah.:scrutiny:

[Jeff Thomas]

Great idea ... and then execute the ba$***** when they show up to collect the check. ;)

Regards from TX

[hapafish]

For the record, I think the American public needs to stop projecting American standards of behavior onto the Iraqis. These people don't understand the burden of responsibility behind RKBA and shoot each other (and us) up quite happily. These people don't care about American notions of justice or anything else you wish to dream they possess. While I understand that there might be some in this forum who are allergic to anything that could be construed as smacking of "racism" or "atrocity" I remind you all that these people play by very, very different rules, and if you have difficulty believing that I suggest you take a trip to Iraq to find out for yourself.

-pace Surgical strikes gentlemen, that's the key IMHO. It bears repeating that we are fighting an ideology, an attitude and that cannot be defeated conventionally. We certainly can't enact the "Final Solution" as some have suggested. The thought process must be changed and that change can't be forced.

I find it highly odd to think "police actions" and limited airstrikes can save us. This is a war for survival, and we should all consider ourselves damn lucky we haven't had another 9/11 in the last three years. Preemption works well enough; we tie down and burn as many of the scumbags as humanly possible on their home turf rather than ours. In case this hasn't occured to some, there are a good many number in that part of the world who want all of us dead, dead, and dead. Which President was at fault is now moot. Of course, a long-standing final victory requires much more dedication and a real plan, but I think it bears thinking that every military casualty we sustain equates scores of potential civilian casualties averted at home. Let us not bemoan the status quo overmuch.

-El Rojo So we have the Marines go and search all 300,000 to 400,000 residents of Fallujah, using the images captured from TV to find all of the people who were present. Now I haven't just spent several months in Iraq, so maybe it is easier for the troops there to easily distinguish by TV pictures exactly who is who and make positive IDs of the people in the photos and on TV. Then those who are "confirmed" get their heads "blown off on the spot". Sounds like a great and fair idea of justice.

Of course, the problem with this is that any police action in Iraq requires the cooperation of the local authorities. The address system in Iraq is Byzantine, and the sheer preponderance of people with beards and similarity of dress is a boondoggle to deal with unless you are Iraqi. There are no census records, and the question of who lives where or what is going to be answered only by the Iraqi police - who are going to distance themselves as far away as possible from such a fiasco in the making. Have I already mentioned the Iraqi police are worthless do-nothings collaborating with the insurgents? Even if the Marines do pull a mass cordon and search, not only will the insurgents most likely be tipped off, the mere act of showing up on the streets is going to draw insurgents and rioters out for battle. I think it bears repeating that the war never really ended, so don't expect this to be an 11 o'clock news item with large crowds of orange monkey suits being led away. Going after the perps in question, thanks to the Iraqi notion of extended family, means pitched battle with the entire freaking city. Good luck to the Marines.

Then there's the entire question of "oh we're a democracy, we don't do such things" etc ... I think the point needs to be made loud and clear that in wartime, such niceties are under suspension. While I hesitate from the comfort of stateside garrison to advocate we go out and raze Fallujah, the more we screw around, the further up the ante goes. While it might be distasteful to think about it, Mongol tactics secured peace in Asia for centuries. The question now is whether to bring the hammer down and solve at least one insurgency problem and possibly bring an end to resistance and some measure of stability to Iraq, or to deal with it after, say, terrorists detonate nuclear weapons of Pakistani, North Korean, or ex-Soviet origin on American soil someday.

But hey, if it's ok for us to lose onesies and twosies to these scumbags forever while they gain momentum, recruit more insurgents (success begets success) and arm themselves further, and possibly bring all of Iraq to a rolling civil war with Sunni vs. Shiite vs. Kurds vs. Turkomans vs. all of us, then we should "stay the course" of weakness. Regardless, I don't make the decisions, so I'll just wait for my next set of deployment orders. You all have a good night.

Peace out.

[Stand_Watie]

I think the point needs to be made loud and clear that in wartime, such niceties are under suspension

Well put.

While it might be distasteful to think about it, Mongol tactics secured peace in Asia for centuries. The question now is whether to bring the hammer down and solve at least one insurgency problem and possibly bring an end to resistance and some measure of stability to Iraq, or to deal with it after, say, terrorists detonate nuclear weapons of Pakistani, North Korean, or ex-Soviet origin on American soil someday.

While I think it's important to note that we are Americans, it's also important to note that we are Americans at war. Yes, it's important to use the least amount of force neccessary to accomplish the purpose...but it's also important to use enough force.

War is hell. But the war that ensues when the more powerfull of the parties is afraid to properly wage a war is a neverending hell.

[longeyes]

If we are to allow ourselves to be undone by our degree of "civilization," then our definition of civilization--and what's at stake--was never sufficiently robust.

The fact that we have unleashed hell in prior wars--and for good reason--has not turned us into devils. We seem to have a hard time, in these decadent days, comprehending that all too obvious fact.

We'd better get straight about what we are facing and what it is going to take to overcome it.

[Powderman]

El Rojo, you seem well rooted in the ideals and values that helped to make our country the best nation on earth. There's nothing wrong with that.

But, there's one thing that you don't seem to understand.

THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE THAT YOU CAN NOT REASON WITH, TALK TO, OR NEGOTIATE WITH.

In almost every war we have fought, there have been atrocities. But the nation from which the soldiers or people came from that committed them made it abundantly clear that these were isolated incidents, and that they were not the norm.

The manner of these people (Iraqi fedayeen, hardcore loyalists to Saddam, etc.) was well demonstrated during the first Gulf War.

When the ballon went up, they did NOT stand--at least for the most part--and fight it out, soldier to soldier. No, they started lobbing Scuds at Israel.

ISRAEL?!?!?

Why? They weren't even involved in the mess at that time!!

Israel showed great restraint by not lobbing nukes back at them.

Now, these people attack Americans with an overwhelming mob. It wasn't enough to kill them. It wasn't enough to light off a few RPG's and a few hundred rounds.

No, they had to be animals. You saw the film.

Therefore, you should know that these ANIMALS can not be reasoned with. Same as a dog with rabies that attacks people--there's only one way to deal with them. Same as when you see one rat in your house--you know there are more.

You deal with it swiftly, with crushing, overwhelming force, and you make it known that there's plenty more where that came from.

When I'm on patrol, there are those that I run into during the night that sometimes want to test themselves. They do so by assuming an aggressive posture, or a combative stance.

With my (and most of the time, my partner's) response, I let them know, without mistake, that the choice they made was VERY poor indeed.

That's the only thing these animals understand--the business end of a firearm, in operation.

The last thing that goes through their minds in this case should be a 5.56mm full metal jacketed bullet.

[El Rojo]

But, there's one thing that you don't seem to understand.

THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE THAT YOU CAN NOT REASON WITH, TALK TO, OR NEGOTIATE WITH. Powderman, I understand that fully. That is why I have said numerous times: Find the people who did this, capture or kill them. I didn't say to negotiate with them. I didn't say talk to them. No one has said any of that. I don't even know what you are arguing about now. Would you please find at least one time in this ten pages of discussion where anyone said we should negotiate with the people who did this? Please, just one quote.

What we have been speaking out against is this constant babble about killing all of these "animals" and anyone who stands near them. This talk about leveling whole cities,: men, women, children, the elderly, everyone. That is what we speak out about. You continue to come up with these crazy ideas that only deal in some sick psychotic fantasy of death and destruction to anyone and everyone who speaks against us. IT IS OLD ALREADY!

When I'm on patrol, there are those that I run into during the night that sometimes want to test themselves. They do so by assuming an aggressive posture, or a combative stance.

With my (and most of the time, my partner's) response, I let them know, without mistake, that the choice they made was VERY poor indeed.So because the animals you deal with on patrol need a good ass kicking, so do the animals in the Middle East right? In fact, anyone who stands up to you is nothing more than a stupid animal because how dare they challenge your power and authority? You are one tough mother. And so is America. We kill anyone who disagrees with us. Because that is all the rest of the stupid animal world understands, the business end of a gun. And we have the biggest guns around. Lets put them all in their places.

Again, I am all for using force when necessary. And when it is time to use force, you don't hold back. It is on. I just can't get into this chest beating and big man display of bravado. I don't see why you guys do it. If all these guys understand is force, then use force. You don't have to act all big and bad. You don't have to advocate killing everyone who gets in the way or fails to get out of the way. In fact, our government seems to be handling the situation quite well without making lame ultimatums and threatening civilians.

The way some people talk here, we are losing the war in Iraq because we haven't killed enough of them. All this talk about how America is weak because we haven't killed enough. Do we need another WWII in order to make progress? Do we have to level whole cities like the days of old to get our missions acomplished? It sounds more and more like it.

[joab]

THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE THAT YOU CAN NOT REASON WITH, TALK TO, OR NEGOTIATE WITH
I might disagree. There have been some public condemnations of the attack coming from Falluja clerics so there may be a chance
What if we distribute pamphlets with photos of the main actors in the attacks offerring a small reward for their capture giving the good people of the town the opportunity to prove that they are sincere. Give them a 3 day time period to turn over the offenders to the American authorities in the area.

At the end of the grace period make 2 surgical strikes in the city at key locations of community. Give them another 6 hours then make a another surgical strike on the most prominent area of town, then give them 2 hours more to turn over the offenders.

At the end of that time period, with an all volunteer assault team made up of Army Rangers, Marines of any flavour, and throw in some Delta and Seal teams and assault the town with a blinding fury that the world has not seen in 60 years.

The plan to me makes perfect sense, you give the people a chance to show their innocence if they fail you show them and the rest of the "rebels" in Iraq the error of their ways. The kid gloves have to come off and an example must be made. The civil rules of war rule don't seem to be working well in this town they are playing by street rules.

If 100 Rangers can fight their way out of a hostile town that size with faulty inteligence no real plan of action, and barely adequate support, with minimal casulalties then a well planned well supported and well motivated strike team 10 times that size should be able to fight their way in and achieve any objective given to them

[greyhound]

Some folks will do anything they can to spin against our being in Iraq

The leftists in general have been having a field day with the "they were just mercenaries" tripe, acting as if its another "gotcha" against the President that these security consultants (i.e. "mercenaries") are there at all.

Some popular lefty blogger "The Daily Kos" posted a "who cares they were mercenaries in the illegal war" screed that has the right wing blogs all in an uproar.

www.rightwingnews.com