Isreali Draw


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4thHorseman
February 5, 2003, 04:14 AM
I've heard the term mention, "Isreali Draw" in reference to the drawing of a 1911 model. It has something to do with cocking the gun on the draw. Is there a certain technique to it?
Can anyone explain more aboutit please?

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Leadbutt
February 5, 2003, 04:28 AM
From what I have seen in demos,it appears that they carry all the time chamber empty,most don't even use holsters,

As they draw the weapon it is brought up to mid chest held at I would say 90%,with the slide pointed toward the left hand{right hand draw},both hands meet at the mid chest and as the weapon is thrust out the left hand racks the slide and a round is fired asap on target. Maybe a little more involved than this but i was put off by it and didn't get into the shooting part.

Soap
February 5, 2003, 09:07 AM
Leadbutt pretty much got it. Another detail is that they normally stand in a semi-crouching isoceles stance when they do it. Also, the technique isn't confined to just 1911s. Weird. I wouldn't want to go into the West Bank with an unloaded pistol!

Tamara
February 5, 2003, 09:42 AM
The describing of something as "Israeli", be it silly chamber-empty carry or budget plastic holsters, automatically sets the tactical sugarplums dancing in a GSC's head.

Navy joe
February 5, 2003, 10:09 AM
You know, I was just thinking about that last night, Say "Israeli" and suddenly the whole gunshop goes silent out of respect. Gotten worse than tactical. I will grant that the IDF is an incredibly tenacious force that derives a fair amount of military prowess from being constantly on a war footing. They make some neat weapons too. But... They are an army of conscripts, training for most of the rank and file is pretty basic. How has it become that everything they do is gospel to us? I sure know that my Fobus holster wasn't "combat proven", woulda failed miserably. As far as Israeli draw, maybe condition 3 is the safest way to give a bunch of less than ideally trained young troops a pistol. Not for me. If you want to see the ultimate in tactical you ought to see some of the patrol slings they devise for their M-16s. Most I've seen involved the original sling, 550 cord, and healthy doses of tactical tape. Well, it works I guess, so that would be "practical" as recently discussed?

10-Ring
February 5, 2003, 11:49 AM
Seems like a really awkward way of drawing. But, from a video I had seen, those who are properly trained at it are VERY FAST & efficient at it. It's really about the training!

Mute
February 5, 2003, 12:05 PM
The Israeli Draw is just condition 3 carry. Nothing earthshaking or new. I'm drawing from memory, but I believe they use this method not for it's superiority but for uniformity of gun handling, regardless of the type of handgun used.

Diesle
February 5, 2003, 12:08 PM
Leadbutt nailed it

They carry chamber empty. The natural position of the gun as its comming out of the holster is flat out, slide top facing due left. The racking of the slide and firing of the first round is back to back. Click, click, boom in a fraction of a second...

From what I understand, after that first round is fired and the weak hand has had a chance to get in place, they rotate the gun into a upright 2 handed grip stance... So, Click, click, boom, weak hand approaching, gun rotating to upright, 2 hand grip, boom, boom, boom. ;) Chica boom...


Diesle

Hkmp5sd
February 5, 2003, 12:33 PM
The Israeli Instinctive Combat Shooting Method

http://www.americangunsmith.com/productpix/17animsm.gif

9mmepiphany
February 5, 2003, 02:48 PM
that's really cool :cool: ...the video, not the technique. much better then any description i've ever read. i've seen it performed and it is very quick...

the israelis i have come into contact with (high school, college,work) usually have no better grasp of weapon craft then any other nationality. they recieved limited military training as a required part of the culture (so did my last tour guide in the PRC)

i've come to the conclusion that their being in a constant "state of war" has caused them to refine their training with constant discarding of this that "don't work" or "don't hold up". you haven't seen an abused weapon until you've seen an abused israeli weapon...cleaning? what cleaning? :confused:

the technique we are discussing has been around for quite awhile...back when every military service carried with an emputy chamber in their sidearms. given those limitations...it really does work

T.Stahl
February 5, 2003, 04:49 PM
Navy joe, what's the problem with conscript armies?
I'm pretty sure that the average IQ and human ressources of most conscript armies, like those of Israel, Norway or Germany, are higher/better than those of "professional" armies, like those of Spain, the UK, France or the USA.
Some recruits are smart enough to be trained differently. ;)

9mmepiphany
February 5, 2003, 05:08 PM
isn't it interesting that mention of the british army doesn't get the same response...how long have they been fighting the irish. they must surely be the experts in urban warfare...and yet they have little history of gun (CQB) ownership.

they designed their latest bullpup rifle meet their specific demands and i've heard some terrible stories about it from the last "gulf war"

Navy joe
February 5, 2003, 05:43 PM
T. Stahl, no great problem, America had one for a long time. The biggest issue is that by the time you get someone throughly trained they are gone. Of course in Israel they remain in the reserves, but it's pretty much a given that they are not there to pass along knowledge to new troops. Maybe not so in your neck of the woods, but around this country all someone has to say about anything martial is "It's Israeli" and the product or concept is blessed. Witness Krav Maga, the Desert Beagle, Fobus holsters, etc. All have a reputation greater than their actual performance.

Neat video, course if the thing was loaded it would have had about four less movements in it.

T.Stahl
February 5, 2003, 06:25 PM
I agree, there's a big misconception about Israeli = the perfect/best/coolest solution.
It's just that the Israelis have to make do with what they got. When I look at their army's equipment there's some stuff I like, that I'd call great, that I'd like to have myself, that I'd like our own army to adopt (Like that recon-vest). Yet, there's probably just as much stuff I deem inferior to other existing, issued/practised and proved equipment or system (Hey, they still don't have a decent IFV like the Marder, Bradley or CV90).

I think this thing about cond 3 carry is more about the various and different sidearms the Israelis issue, than the IDF being a conscript army.

9mmepiphany
February 5, 2003, 06:59 PM
the IDF were using the beretta (single stack forerunner to the 92) and browning 9mm when they developed their presentation method...rather then cocked and locked, they went with an empty chamber

Thumper
February 5, 2003, 07:09 PM
From what I understand, when the pistol is the secondary weapon, it's Condition 3.

When your long gun is back in the arms room, sidearm is ready to go.

Kobun
February 5, 2003, 07:11 PM
The main reason behind the "Israeli draw" is to give you a fraction of a second more time to react when your gun is snatched out of your cheap nylon holster.
Of course, I would think their enemies are aware of this, and are just as proficient as the Israelis themselves in rackin a slide... :rolleyes:
I'd rather buy a better holster...
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=43854

Leadbutt
February 6, 2003, 05:26 AM
9mm, is right the whole thing was brought about due to the weapons they had at the time,my fathers best friend was a Mossad op in the early 50's and carried the little Beretta in 22,wellup into his 80's and was deadly with it,but never could get him to try just cocked and locked carry

rick458
February 6, 2003, 06:45 AM
I saw an article in American Handgunner, for a Holster, that COCKER and CHAMBERED your pistol upon drawing it. that is just wrong on so many different levels, did anybody else see that?:what:

CMichael
February 6, 2003, 09:14 AM
Navy Joe I think the reason Israel has such a good reputation is because they have had no room for mistakes. One lost war and their country is gone.

Therefore, they have had by necessity to be the best.

As has been mentioned they are also battle hardened and have had constant combat experience.

I think their military has an excellent reputation because they have earned it.

Tamara
February 6, 2003, 09:48 AM
...and therefore every weapon they design is the best, every technique the greatest.

Don't believe me? Take a Tanfoglio CZ knockoff, put a beveled slide and an IMI logo on it and watch the GSCs swoon.

Watch the reaction as the GSC tells everyone (when they make fun of the powdered donut residue on his Death Before Dishonor tee-shirt) "Y'all better watch out! I'm carrying this gun Israeli style, and I'm taking Israeli martial arts!"

One would be a fool to mess with a man of that caliber, obviously.

CMichael
February 6, 2003, 09:58 AM
Tamara if a person or a country has a good reputation for something I think it's a wee bit childish to try and belittle it.

I think if someone is doing well in a particular area it should be a motivator to reach that level as well instead of trying to knock that person down.

Just my opinion.

Tamara
February 6, 2003, 10:06 AM
Where did I belittle Israel?

What I belittled was the "Israeli" marketing nonsense among American gun shop commandos.


Tell you what, if you want to walk around with the chamber on your pistol empty, convinced in your heart of hearts that it's a Super Israeli Tactical Technique, you go right ahead.

T.Stahl
February 6, 2003, 10:42 AM
It's not about belittleing, it's about pointing out the actual reasons behind a behaviour.
I have a lot of respect for the Israelis and what they do, but simply being "the Israeli way of doing things" is not an indicator of high quality. Or does anyone think that the Achzarit is the ideal IFV or that relying on upgraded Centurions and M60s is the non-plus-ultra in MBT technology just because the Israelis do it? ;)
Some people will buy anything that's marketed as "Israeli".
Others will go for "SEAL", "SAS", "DELTA FORCE", "GSG9", ... for similar reasons. :D

Oracle
February 6, 2003, 11:13 AM
I think that it's more about training than anything else. If you've been trained to carry a gun chamber-empty, and then draw and rack the slide at the same time, and you're good at it and can do it quickly, then by all means, do so. If you're trained in another technique, then stick to that one. It's just like much of everything, you makes your choices and you pays your money :).

My wife likes her Star Model B better than any gun she's ever held, it fits her hand perfectly, and it would be the absolute perfect gun if it weren't for one thing: she's left handed, and the 1911-style safety is on the left side of the gun, it's set up for a righty. Now, no ambi safeties are made for the Star Model B, and yes, she could switch to a .45 or even a 9mm Springfield, but she really likes her Star and is comfortable with it. So, she carries "Israeli Style", "Condition 3" or whatever you want to call it, and racks the slide as she draws her pistol (although, she racks it when it's in a McCann/Grover style close retention position at the side of her chest, unlike the "Israeli Style" draw shown in the posted video). It works for her, she's fast with it because she's practiced, and she goes on down the road. She's picked a drawing/loading technique that works for her, and that she's comfortable with, and that is what I think is most important.

CMichael
February 6, 2003, 11:48 AM
Stahl I agree with you. I don't think it's good to carry around the gun with the chamber empty.

This is no doubt thought up by some bureaucrat.

Navy joe
February 6, 2003, 11:58 AM
Reading comprehension??? A common internet problem. Nowhere did I belittle the Israeli fighting forces, paid them a few compliments actually. With something as large as a country and its military you can admire the entity while still seeing it's shortcomings. FWIW, I didn't just get these ideas from reading my roll of toilet paper, I've observed a fair bit of Israeli military troops and hardware up close, talked to a good number too. Yes, they are a good military; no, not everything they turn out belongs up on the altar of tactical holiness.

9mmepiphany
February 6, 2003, 01:10 PM
cmichael - i don't think it is a great idea to carry with an empty chamber either, except...

when the alternative is more dangerous.

the beretta 950 is a great little pocket pistol, more reliable in .25 than .22lr, except it is (1) SA only, (2) has a miniscule thumb safety and (3) a tiny hammer spur

your 3 options were to carry with
1. an empty chamber and rack slide on draw
2. hammer down on live round and thumb cock on draw
3. cocked and unlocked over a live round

i think that might lead to adopting option 1

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