SKS Accuracy


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WoodchuckAssassin
February 5, 2014, 06:56 PM
My Grandpa swears up and down that semi-automatic rifles aren't worth anything in the accuracy department, but he's a die-hard bolt action guy, so his opinion might be a little one sided. What have your experiences been out to 75-100 yards?

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hso
February 5, 2014, 07:39 PM
The answer to his contentition is "depends".

Plenty of high priced national match semis will outshoot run of the mill bolt guns, but there are also plenty of bolt guns that will outshoot semis.

It is an empty argument to make claims about ultimate performace/accuracy unless you're focused on that area of shooting.

The important question is what type of shooting do you want to do and what sort of firearm is best suited for it.

LRShooting
February 5, 2014, 07:45 PM
I have a mil-surp sks. Im assuming Japanese or Chinese based off the writing engraved in the gun. With iron sights, I can shoot about 2 inches at 100 yards pretty easily. That's not great, but its good enough for hunting. That being said, I have bolt guns that shoot worse than that, and way better than that. A lot of that may be solved with simply matching ammo with the guns though.

ArchAngelCD
February 5, 2014, 08:31 PM
My Grandpa swears up and down that semi-automatic rifles aren't worth anything in the accuracy department, but he's a die-hard bolt action guy, so his opinion might be a little one sided. What have your experiences been out to 75-100 yards?
In general your Grandpa might be right especially if he has shot some war time manufactured semi-autos. Like mentioned above, try and tell me a National Match M1 Garand isn't accurate because they are at the top IMO.

As for the SKS, I own one and it's fairly accurate, more so than my AK-47 for the most part. It's a well made semi-auto that has some weight to it and it's a longer rifle so it's easier to shoot well. How about the FAL? Those are very accurate rifles as are other "well made" battle rifles. (I focused on battle rifles because you mentioned the SKS)

Ar180shooter
February 5, 2014, 08:34 PM
I have a mil-surp sks. Im assuming Japanese or Chinese based off the writing engraved in the gun. With iron sights, I can shoot about 2 inches at 100 yards pretty easily. That's not great, but its good enough for hunting. That being said, I have bolt guns that shoot worse than that, and way better than that. A lot of that may be solved with simply matching ammo with the guns though.
It would be Chinese, the Japanese never made SKS's.

And 2" with an SKS and open sights is pretty good.

Cee Zee
February 5, 2014, 08:37 PM
My Norinco SKS is pretty accurate out to 100 yards. Shooting off hand I can do 3" groups probably. Off a rest is better of course. But the ammo doesn't seem to fly straight past 125 yards or so. I can hit a 12" group at 250 yards or so if I'm having a good day. The trigger can make a big difference. Most of their triggers weren't put together right. If you have them fixed by someone that really knows them you can get much better accuracy.

PlayTheAces
February 5, 2014, 09:25 PM
I had a Russian SKS that was far from accurate. However, that was just one rifle. Most semi rifles I've owned have been more than satisfactory, shooting above my abiliity. Depends on the gun.

On the other hand, I'd give the edge to bolt actions overall. Just my opinion.

theshephard
February 5, 2014, 09:28 PM
I used to shoot a Russian SKS back in the 90s out to 200 with irons, reliably hitting a 4" gong. They're not tack drivers - they weren't ever made to fill that expectation - but those suckers are far more accurate than most give them credit for, and enough to 'get the job done' at a decent range. 75-100? Easy!

As for the general action comparison, I think it's hard to do that without understanding more about the requirements of the task at hand. I shoot a semi-auto at 200, 300 and 600 yards and know that if I do my job, it does its job really well. However, semi-autos usually need sloppier tolerances to accommodate a violent and imprecise action, along with an expectation of dirt, oil, and other rough operating conditions. The best bolt-action, made for the pristine bench environment with classical music playing in the background, is going to outperform a semi-auto in a pure tack-driving exercise all day long.

So, I think your grandpa's right, in a vacuum. The rifle itself may be more accurate, but perhaps not as "effective" in different conditions as a semi-auto or lever action.

tahunua001
February 5, 2014, 11:52 PM
there are many generalizations that cause a lot of rumors to be interpreted as fact.

yes there are a lot more moving parts on semi autos which can affect how the ammunition reacts and some semis are just not made to the same standards as others. now a lot of AR15s made today are more than capable of 1 inch groups and there are bolt actions that can't do better than 3 inches at 100 yards.

now since you specifically referenced the SKS in the title I will tell you my personal experience. MY sks is a lot more accurate than most people think. my older brother and brother in law grew up in a time where SKS cost about $90, the ammo was cheaper than 22LR is now and everyone and anyone that owned one slapped on some plastic dragunov stock, bolted on a scope to a non-stable part of the rifle, threw in a modified AK47 magazine, and expected good accuracy, and decent reliability from them. most were disappointed when they were making 3-4 inch groups and jammed every other shot. this lead them and all their friends with the cheap commie guns to assume that all SKS were inaccurate and unreliable.

fast forward about 12 years and I bought my SKS for $240. I tried to keep it a secret from them since I didn't want to deal with the ridicule and sure enough they found out and I haven't lived it down since. however the sights on the SKS are not easy to shoot accurately with and the stock on mine was unserviceable due to shrinkage so $160 later I had an SKS with a different set of sights and a very nicely fitted stock. my brother in law brought out some tannerite a few weeks back. after filling a number of medication bottles with tannerite, he asked me to grab a rifle that could hit a pill bottle at 75 yards that had a velocity of at least 2000 feet per second. he was irked when I grabbed my SKS but I stuck with it and since he doesn't have the combo to my gun safe he had to just deal with it. every shot hit each pill bottle and with every pull of the trigger another explosion rang out as the tannerite ignited. he has since, not said a single word about my inaccurate, piece of junk SKS, I think he is starting to see that there is a difference between a well accessorized SKS and a well configured SKS.

primalmu
February 5, 2014, 11:58 PM
Not all semi-autos are inaccurate. Check out this 5 shot group at 100 yards from my Rock River Arms Varmint A4.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v104/insignia100/11-19-131_zps6bfc9085.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/insignia100/media/11-19-131_zps6bfc9085.jpg.html)

d2wing
February 6, 2014, 12:19 AM
If your standard of semi auto accuracy is a SKS, then yes a bolt action will be more accurate. I owed a few and shoot a lot of guns, and am certified expert. 2-3 inch offhand groups with a SKS are pure bull. On the other hand a good AR makes it a whole 'nuther story. A former sniper that writes an online military magazine, "Kit Up", says that new semi auto sniper rifles are on par with bolts and offer better firepower. So pick your words carefully.

bullseyebob47
February 6, 2014, 07:08 AM
i always thought i am fairly good at shooting. i spent 7 hours at the range with .22s, 12 ga, a russian sks, and a chinese sks. all iron sites and bench rest. as far as the sks, i found the chinese and wolf fmj where the best combo. at 100 yards i get 4" or 5" groups at best. my russian sks isn't as good and tula ammo isn't as good. at 150 yards i managed to get 9 hits out of 15 shots on a standard poster board. LARGE GROUPING. i quit at that point.

im just not that good or other posters here have that internet exaggeration going on. or they used match ammo they didn't mention?

i figured a scope on the sks would improve things but i'll get a bolt action or break open rifle with scope for long distance.

bullseyebob47
February 6, 2014, 07:24 AM
and during my 7 hour stay quite a few "hunters" came through with their bolt actions and big scopes. most where shooting no better than my sks and they never try beyond 50 yards. one ar15 guy with peep sites shot worse than my sks at 50 yards. im sure its the shooter and not the gun. another ar15 guy had all bullet holes touching at 25 yards but it all went to <deleted> at 50. this guy with a h&r 45/70 break open had bullet holes touching at 25 and 50 yards. he would not try 100 yards no matter how much i suggested it.

sansone
February 6, 2014, 07:53 AM
grandpa is sorta correct but not really :rolleyes: in general maybe you can say bolts are more accurate, but there are many exceptions..

I had a mini-14 and a BAR that were very disappointing @ the bench. likewise I've never seen a SKS or AK that did any better.

I just sold a Ruger M77 because my AR10 shot MUCH tighter groups :what:

chicharrones
February 6, 2014, 08:18 AM
Every bolt gun I have will punch tighter groups than my Norinco SKS at 100 yards. That is even using open sights to keep it somewhat even with my SKS.

Small group paper punching just isn't what my SKS was built for.

Delmar
February 6, 2014, 08:39 AM
Back when you could get a brand new Norinco SKS in the packing grease for under $100, I sprung for one and took it to the range. From the bench I was getting 3-4 inch groups with the open sights and thought the rifle would do better. Bought a file to fit receiver cover with a scope rail and fitted it. Went back to the range and the same group lol. Took the scope off and used it for deer at no more than 125 yards give or take. It did the job, but nothing worth bragging about.

tahunua001
February 6, 2014, 09:56 AM
A person could also point out that these are military surplus arms. they were designed for no more than hitting a man at 100 yards. compare this to the accuracy of many military bolt actions such as the enfield number 1 and 4 rifles, the Many different renditions of the Mosin Nagant, the French MAS, the Italian carcano and the groups are really quite similar. keep in mind that Vasille Zaytzev and Simo Hayha found themselves some accurate mosin nagants and Lee Harvey Oswald showed the USA that there was at least one accurate Carcano so just remember that there are always outliers among all models. some bolts are not very accurate as a whole but have some accurate examples, and the same is true for semi autos. also there are gun models that have reputations for being very accurate that have inaccurate examples.

as for the guy that lives in a place devoid of marksmanship skills, I feel sorry for you. many of the people where I'm from won't shoot less than 100 yards unless they are just trying to get their gun on paper. I normally shoot from sandbags while I'm at my local range since they require you to shoot from the bench and very few of my rifles are incapable of less than 5 inches at 100. now shooting freehand that is all a different story but that is not a representation of the rifle's accuracy but rather, mine.

wally
February 6, 2014, 10:24 AM
What have your experiences been out to 75-100 yards?

At this short a range my experience has been anything that is safe to shoot is fine for about anything other than bragging about how small your group sizes are off a bench rest.

Cee Zee
February 6, 2014, 12:49 PM
2-3 inch offhand groups with a SKS are pure bull

I love it when people assume things they can't know. You weren't there the last time I shot my SKS at 100 yards. At least I didn't see you there. Were you hiding in the weeds?

You and your "certified expert" opinion obviously don't know what an SKS is capable of doing. Unless you're shooting one with the trigger fixed to factory standards you won't shoot groups like that. But that trigger makes a huge difference. I've been shooting off hand all my life. Maybe I'm not certifiable like you but I can shoot a rifle. I have the record to back that up too since we're dragging that stuff into the discussion. Where do you live? Maybe you can stop by and I'll give you a demonstration.

tahunua001
February 6, 2014, 01:59 PM
I will also point out that the difference between most experts and morons is that the experts will never say they are an expert...

be careful with that slippery slope.

stubbicatt
February 6, 2014, 04:32 PM
A good shooter can shoot any rifle as well as it can be shot. We have many contributors who are good shooters.

I think that over the past decade, maybe two, great strides forward have been made in the pursuit of extreme accuracy. Semi automatic AR15 type rifles have reached a level of potential that their M16A1 progenitors could not have imagined. They have become quite accurate.

But then progress has not exactly passed bolt actioned rifles by either... Here in the last couple decades we have the introduction of some fantastic rifles capable of the 0's or low 1's. A BAT or Stolle Panda, or any of several other bolt actioned rifles can be an amazing experience.

It may be talking out of school, but I have not yet seen a semi automatic rifle capable of that kind of accuracy consistently. So, while accurate rifles have become more accurate, whether bolt actioned or semi automatic, and the bar has been raised consequently, I hazard to say that OP's grandfather is probably right.

Cee Zee
February 6, 2014, 04:38 PM
I wouldn't dream of claiming an SKS is as accurate as your average bolt action rifle these days. They aren't. Not even close. Even entry level rifles will shoot MOA or better now. You could never get an SKS to do that. But an AR is another story. If you build them the right way they can shoot very accurate.

MyRoad
February 6, 2014, 05:24 PM
It seems as though there are two discussions bifurcating here, one about semi-autos vs. bolts, and another on the inherent accuracy of an SKS. Both are wide open and subject to apples and oranges comparisons.

SKS's come in all kinds of conditions ranging from unfired to shot out, and from various countries with varied build qualities. I have a 1951 Russian that will shoot 1.5" groups @ 50 yards (with HORNADY ammo, from a bench) all day long and effortlessly, and I had a "paratrooper" Norinco that had lived a long hard life and shot 4-5" patterns at 50 yards, no matter what you fed it. So there is so much variation within SKS's, that just trying to determine "how accurate is an SKS" is an endless discussion all by itself.

So the closest thing to a reasonable comparison would be to specify an SKS country of origin and year of manufacture, and then attempt to find a comparable (quality and use) mil-surp in a bolt action from a similar year and country of origin, and then see how their accuracy compared. Otherwise, we're just throwing stuff at the wall.

MyRoad
February 6, 2014, 05:30 PM
...but specifically to the OP, the limiting factors with most SKS's is the iron sights and crappy Russian ammo. You won't know what your SKS can do until you *properly* scope it, and use quality ammo. Ammo is the single biggest factor, in my experience.

T.R.
February 6, 2014, 07:08 PM
My friend has a Russian built SKS carbine that shoots Winchester soft tip ammo into 2.5 - 3 inch groups at 100 yards. But foreign made ammo is not as accurate which shoots 4 inches or so.

SKS carbines were designed as sturdy combat rifles. Expecting target grade accuracy is unrealistic.

TR

AK103K
February 6, 2014, 07:14 PM
I dont care what kind of rifle you have, or how accurate you say it is, you will always be at the mercy of the ammo youre using. Most military ammo is spec'd at around 2-3moa (and thats a "mean" radius figure, not diameter). Im not saying you wont get lots here and there that will shoot better, you usually do, but overall, you will get more lots that live up to it.

I have an AR that has literally shot one holers on more than one occasion at 100 yards, and usually will shoot 0.25-0.50 groups prone of a bipod 99% of the time, when using my reloads that it likes. If I switch to USGI issue ammo the very next mag, 2-3" groups would be a "good" average of what to expect, and no matter how hard you try.

Ive had similar experiences with a Remington 700 Varmint in .308. Reloads tuned to the gun shoot 0.5" or better, GI ball, 2-3" the very next target.

Ive seen it as well with my .308 Springfield National match M1A's, and in 30-06 and .308 out of my NM M1's. "Match" grade ammo, or precision reloads, tuned to the guns, normally shoot better than factory or issue ammo.

Rifles of known accuracy potential, dont live up to that potential, with ammo that isnt loaded to their capabilities. No matter how bad you want different, thats just the way it is. If youre if your using random/unknown ammo, and not using ammo/loads tuned to the gun, that have a history with that gun, you really cant make a claim to accuracy.

Oh, and as far as "skills" go, you do have to wonder sometimes about some of the claims you often hear. 100 yard 2" offhand groups are a challenge for accomplished shooters with match grade rifles, and doing so on a regular basis with something like an SKS, AR, AK, etc, shooting standard grade ammo, or even reloads matched to the gun, is something Id have to see to believe.

Id be willing to bet that "most" people couldnt do it with their favorite rifle "on demand". Then again, you usually dont see what most claim they can do, if you ask them to do it "right now". What you might have done once isnt a true example of what you and the gun can do. What you can do on demand, is, and thats what you have to live with.

LRShooting
February 6, 2014, 07:24 PM
It would be Chinese, the Japanese never made SKS's.

And 2" with an SKS and open sights is pretty good.

Yea, well that tells you how much I actually know about the gun lol. I just have one and know its military. As far as grouping, I think its more of a gun capability than having iron sights. A good rest with consistent use of sights will provide good results as long as the gun will do the rest. The only way to really test accuracy of the actual gun would be off a vice I am assuming...Don't take my word for it though. I don't have any experience doing it.

grimjaw
February 6, 2014, 07:56 PM
Personally, I do not do well with the stock sights on the SKS. My eyes aren't that great. The best I could reliably do, using plain old imported, bulk ammo was 4-5 MOA from a seated rest. With a peep sight mounted at the rear of the receiver or an optic bolted to the receiver and not the receiver cover, I could move that up to maybe 2-3 MOA at best.

For awhile, I had a CZ527 in 7.62x39 that would outshoot any SKS I'd had (or would eventually have), using the same ammo. There'd usually be a guy on the line with a tricked-out AR15 type that could print a quarter inside my group, and a guy with a match rifle in .22 that could stay inside a dime. It is probably easier to find a more accurate bolt action that it is to find a more accurate SKS.

Cee Zee
February 6, 2014, 10:38 PM
You won't know what your SKS can do until you *properly* scope it, and use quality ammo. Ammo is the single biggest factor, in my experience.

I totally agree about the ammo. You get a set amount of accuracy from the Russian ammo. There are better types of ammo around that didn't come from the US though. The old brass case ammo from the 90's seems to be a lot more accurate than the steel case stuff.

Scopes are another matter. It's very hard to scope a SKS and do it well. About the only choices are replacing the rear iron sight and mounting a scout type scope. Or you can drill holes in the side of the receiver and mount a scope there. But that makes it very hard to get a good cheek weld since you're trying to aim down the side of the rifle. Neither option is great IMO and the dust cover mounts are never going to stay in place. So I wouldn't bother trying to put a scope on an SKS. They're built for fast action shooting anyway IMO and a scope defeats that purpose.

There is certainly a wide variation in the quality of the SKS's out in the real world. I based my opinion on an SKS in top condition and one that was built as close to the original design as possible. And it has to have the trigger in good condition. That's the kind of SKS that can shoot a fairly tight group (for the type of rifle it is). So basically I'm talking best case scenario here but there are lots of models around that fit that bill.

cougar1717
February 7, 2014, 03:17 PM
I once shot a friend's russian SKS. The only thing He did to it was put an aftermarket front sight on it. Rested, with Wolf ammo, it shot 6" at 50yds. I'm glad to hear that not all of them are like that.

futurerider103
February 7, 2014, 05:50 PM
I shoot mine iron sights off a rest on a 12 inch plate at 550yds no problem. At 50yds I can touch holes in 5 shot groups

Hollowdweller
February 8, 2014, 10:41 AM
I have a Yugo M59 that shoots well (out of about 5 SKS I own) but no where near a bolt action.

Lj1941
February 8, 2014, 12:07 PM
My Russian SKS shoots a good shotgun pattern at 100 yards.I am not the worlds greatest shot but it is horrible with cheap Russian HP ammo. I have some soft point boxer primed ammo that I haven't tried yet. It will no doubt shoot better than the Russian ammo. How much better I really don't know.I have dies but no loadable brass. I am sure some good handloads will improve the accuracy. It is on my list of things to do to shoot the reloadable ammo and see if I can get it at least passable in accuracy.:banghead:

montanaoffroader
February 8, 2014, 05:29 PM
My Norinco SKS is capable of 2-3 inch groups with decent ammo. I've logged a couple of 1.5 groups but that is certainly not the norm. The Yugo 59/66 shot a bit bigger group, usually in the 3-4 inch range.

I didn't spend as much time trying to shrink the groups on the Yugo as I let a friend talk me out of it.

I've seen plenty of SKS rifles in action, some shoot really well and some don't. One of my friends picked up a $79 model (pinned barrel, stamped guard) and it regularly shot 2 inch groups with Bear ammo. Another friend with the same type rifle had trouble getting 4-5 inch groups.

dprice3844444
February 8, 2014, 05:33 PM
http://www.kivaari.com/ sks trigger jobs

d2wing
February 8, 2014, 06:06 PM
It is amazing how well some guys shoot on these forums. They should get over to Russia quick and show the World Champions how to shoot.

AK103K
February 8, 2014, 06:25 PM
It is amazing how well some guys shoot on these forums.
Since we're discussing SKS's/AK's, maybe its a metric conversion thing. 10cm's = 1" right? ;) :D

The_Armed_Therapist
February 8, 2014, 06:42 PM
Many have sworn 2" groups at 100 yards with the SKS. Mine did 8-12" at 100 yards. LOL... Most semi-autos are just fine 1-3" at 100 yards, which is not bad. The SKS and AK are probably the most likely to stray beyond the 3" mark. Never shot a Mini-14, but I've heard many of those aren't so great, either.

AK103K
February 8, 2014, 07:15 PM
The AK's can do it without to much trouble, the SKS too, if you put the time in to learn how they shoot, and they have ammo they like. From what Ive personally seen, especially around here, most base their skills on what they do of a bench, and would have difficulty doing the same, on demand, from a field position.

This was shot at 100 yards from a cross legged sitting position with one of my AK's with an Aimpoint mounted. Ammo, Barnaul 125 grain SP's. To give a size reference, the "head" on the targets is 6"x6".....

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b7d700b3127ccec27fd338d8fb00000010O00CYuWbdo5bsQe3nwk/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00107947390120070921151739610.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

This one was offhand.....

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b7d700b3127ccec27fedffd82300000010O00CYuWbdo5bsQe3nwk/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00107947390120070921151555948.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

These were 2 second "snap shots" from a low ready, 50 yards right, 100 yards left......


http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b7d700b3127ccec27ec09a39b400000010O00CYuWbdo5bsQe3nwk/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00107947390120070921151943317.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

This was shot at 200 yards with my SAR1 using the (slightly canted) stock iron sights, with Wolf 154 grain SP's. The lower group was fired from a rest to confirm zero, the upper, from a cross legged sitting position at a steady cadence. That lower group is right around 3" at 200 yards, something many will swear is not possible with an AK. Trust me, its not the guns fault if it wont, if it has ammo it likes, and youre a reasonably competent shooter.

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b7d700b3127ccec27ff9e8590e00000010O00CYuWbdo5bsQe3nwk/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00107947390120070921151645922.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Again, the head is 6"x6", if you cant read the rule.

And so you know its not a fluke, this was a target previous while chasing zero....

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b7d700b3127ccec27f705c196600000010O00CYuWbdo5bsQe3nwk/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00107947390120070921151811590.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

The only target I have that was shot with an SKS was this one at 25 yards, again from sitting. The dot is I believe, about 1.5", so you can get an idea as to what to expect at 100.

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b7d700b3127ccec27fa167d89d00000010O00CYuWbdo5bsQe3nwk/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00107947390120070921151811911.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Cee Zee
February 8, 2014, 08:42 PM
http://www.kivaari.com/ sks trigger jobs

Excellent suggestion. People don't realize how much difference having the trigger right on an SKS can make on the accuracy. It cut my group size in half when I had Kivaari fix the trigger on my Norinco.

They should get over to Russia quick and show the World Champions how to shoot.

You're the expert. You said you were anyway. You do it.

AK103K
February 8, 2014, 09:41 PM
People don't realize how much difference having the trigger right on an SKS can make on the accuracy.
Unless you have an odd ball gun that has an unacceptable trigger, I really dont see whats to be gained in doing a trigger job on an SKS, or an AK either, for that matter. They usually have decent triggers, especially when compared to stock AR triggers.

Another issue can be the safety issue that often comes in with "worked" triggers, and you can often end up with a gun that isnt really safe for "normal" use, and one that is relegated to strictly a bench/range type gun.

It seems anymore, the American public is often trigger phobic when it comes down to it, and if for whatever reason its not some super tuned lightweight trigger, its not acceptable. Must be "XBox" syndrome. ;)

From what Ive seen over the years, its not the gun thats usually the issue when there is one, and a "match" grade gun in the hands of someone who isnt a shooter at the level it might make a difference, wont make them one.

You're the expert. You said you were anyway. You do it.
There have been some pretty "distinguished expert offhand" claims made here using SKS's, and I dont think d2wing was to far off in his comment.

If they are in fact shooing 2" 100 yard offhand groups "on demand" with an SKS, they should be shooting in the Olympics. ;)

Cee Zee
February 9, 2014, 09:01 AM
Unless you have an odd ball gun that has an unacceptable trigger, I really dont see whats to be gained in doing a trigger job on an SKS, or an AK either, for that matter. They usually have decent triggers, especially when compared to stock AR triggers.

Another issue can be the safety issue that often comes in with "worked" triggers, and you can often end up with a gun that isnt really safe for "normal" use, and one that is relegated to strictly a bench/range type gun.

You don't see what a trigger working well has to do with accuracy? You and who else? Nobody is modifying the triggers when you send them to Kivaari. He fixes them back to original specs. And as for safety, I guarantee they will be safer after he fixes them. You really should find a good SKS board and learn just how wrong your comments are.

What's with you people who like to make claims about others shooting ability when you can't possibly know what you're saying is true? To begin with I never said I shot 2" groups off hand. That might be a good place for you to re-think your comments.

Just how do you know who should be shooting in the Olympics and who shouldn't? You think there are no great shooters on boards like this? No I'm not a great shooter but I do know some and they do post on boards just like this one.

Just some facts for you. Kivaari does not lighten triggers by modifying them. He does not make them unsafe. In fact he fixes well known safety issues with the SKS. Why don't you go to his website and read what he does for yourself instead of assuming things that are totally wrong? Here's a quote from his site:

"My goal is to improve the safety of as many of the SKS carbines out there as possible for my shooting friends, increase their enjoyment of the rifle, and improve the militia's marksmanship!"

http://www.kivaari.com/SKS%20Target%20Match.htm

If that doesn't satisfy you check out the testimonials on the SKS board at:

http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=a7cb8f5d9573753c9b8c4ac245b589ce&board=62.0

I don't understand why people make comments like yours without doing basic research. Kivaari is one of the most well known people in the shooting industry. His work is almost legendary. Yet you assume he's making triggers unsafe. You obviously don't know that many SKS triggers are unsafe when you get them because they weren't set to specs when they were built. There are known issues with them and Kivaari fixes them. The most well known problem with the triggers is negative engagement. That's a condition where the hammer and sear creep towards the position where they break and strike the firing pin. If they creep too far the rifle can go off with a hard bump. It's not all that common for it to happen but it can happen with rifles with extreme amounts of negative engagement. We all know what a ND can do to someone who makes a mistake on the rules of carrying a firearm. People can die quickly from that situation.

Kivaari has been fixing this problem for many years. There are hundreds if not thousands of testimonials around the net that prove the value of his work. You could have learned that with 30 seconds of research before you posted. Not all of those testimonials are on Kivaari's web site or his section on the SKS board. There are people in this thread besides me that mentioned his work.

So please let's all be civil and not be so quick to make insinuations. There's never been a rider that couldn't be "throwed" or a horse that couldn't be rode. You don't know who you're talking to on this board 99% of the time. To make the kind of claims you made you'd have to see every rifle shot by every shooter. If you notice there are quite a few people here who said they could shoot their SKS accurately. But somehow you know that all those people are wrong. That or you happen to be omniscient.

trueg50
February 9, 2014, 09:40 AM
I can vouch for Kivaari, he is great, and unlike a lot of youtube videos on the subject, he actually makes the trigger safe while improving it (albeit as much as he can given the parts and system).

AK103K
February 9, 2014, 12:29 PM
You don't see what a trigger working well has to do with accuracy? You and who else? Nobody is modifying the triggers when you send them to Kivaari. He fixes them back to original specs. And as for safety, I guarantee they will be safer after he fixes them. You really should find a good SKS board and learn just how wrong your comments are.
What I was referring to was the stock triggers Ive personally shot, on most military type riles, were not at all bad, and I saw no need to modify anything. That goes for SKS's and AK's as well.

Im not sure I understand what you mean by "not working well". Every SKS Ive shot, has had a pretty decent trigger, and worked as it was supposed to. How did yours not?

You say in one breath no one is modifying anything, and in the next, that he is. It cant be both. Im a little confused as to why the triggers would not be in spec, if they were not otherwise modified (from what I read on that website, it sounded like a sales pitch for his trigger jobs to me, just like most others Ive read who do that type work). What makes the trigger unacceptable that they arent shootable?

Im basing my comments on my personal experience with SKS's Ive owned and shot, and none had trigger or safety issues, or at least I didnt find either to be an issue. Sorry, but I was never a rabid SKS fan, so I never followed all the things I was supposed to do to them to try and make then something they werent. I just shot them, more or less how they were meant to be used. Just really how common is the safety issue? This is the first Ive heard of it, and Ive been shooting them since the 80's. Then again, I wasnt looking to really modify them, which probably kept me from wandering into someones sales pitch to know I "needed it".

What's with you people who like to make claims about others shooting ability when you can't possibly know what you're saying is true? To begin with I never said I shot 2" groups off hand. That might be a good place for you to re-think your comments.
"You" made the claims, and now seem annoyed that someone questioned you.

Go back and read through this post, and you do make some claims as to youre personal offhand ability, and 2"-3" was stated and insinuated.

I know this is the internet and all, and everyone is a crack shot, but its just been my experience that when youre at the range with someone, their often stated abilities "usually" dont live up to the hype. Youre only as good as what you can do "on demand" at any given moment, and not what you did "once" when all the stars aligned.

I shoot all manner of things on a pretty regular basis, and have spent a good bit of time shooting HP and military type matches over the years, so I have a fair idea of what realistic and likely. Personally, 2"-3" at 100 yards offhand with an SKS or AK (or most other things for that matter) using their iron sights, even with ammo they like, isnt the "norm", and can often be a challenge, when shot from more stable positions, even a bench.

Just how do you know who should be shooting in the Olympics and who shouldn't? You think there are no great shooters on boards like this? No I'm not a great shooter but I do know some and they do post on boards just like this one.
The ones who made the grade are, those who didnt, were cut. Its as simple as that. If you didnt try, then we'll never know, and it doesnt matter.

There are great shooters everywhere, and Im sure we all know someone who can do amazing things. I know a couple for sure. Some do better under pressure than others, and thats where the difference often comes in. If youre the great shot you think you are, then enter some of the matches, and prove it.

Just some facts for you. Kivaari does not lighten triggers by modifying them.
I did go and read Kivaari's site and info. We must have read or understood things differently. What I read was this....."With my match/target SKS trigger work, you get it all--- safety, clear 2 stage operation, lowered pull, much less creep, smoothness, repeatability, consistency and give up nothing".

Sounds like a "trigger job" to me, and not restoring it to factory specs.

He may well do great work, and Im not, or wasnt saying he didnt, just that "many" trigger jobs, often do put the gun in a category of "not safe for anything but target work", and should not be used as a "working" gun. Lowering the pull weight to me, means you have to pay attention to whats been done, and if that weight is acceptable for real world use. Real world to some is the games or target ranges, and to others, its actual use on and off the range.

So please let's all be civil and not be so quick to make insinuations.
By all means, and lets include "certain claims of accuracy" in there as well, and things will probably go smoother, as uncomfortable questions wont come up. ;)

Cee Zee
February 9, 2014, 04:59 PM
Im not sure I understand what you mean by "not working well". Every SKS Ive shot, has had a pretty decent trigger, and worked as it was supposed to. How did yours not?

You clearly haven't shot a Kivaari fixed trigger. They are not modified. They are set to the original specs. Big difference. And very few SKS rifles are set to actual specs so what you have shot is nothing like a trigger that has been fixed by Kivaari.

Look you think you know everything but you don't even know the issues. You made this wild claim about making rifles unsafe and didn't bother backing down from it. You don't know what you're talking about and you aren't interested in learning. So have a nice day and welcome to my kill filter..

Oh and my EXACT quote was, "Shooting off hand I can do 3" groups probably." There's nothing in what I said about 2" groups despite your pathetic attempt at putting words in my mouth. I didn't uphold what someone else said. I don't know what he can do. I just know what I can do. And you don't. Bye.

back40
February 9, 2014, 05:21 PM
3" groups at 100 yds with a an sks and factory irons is pretty impressive.

i'm sure kivaari's work is top notch, but if you read his site it says nothing of "setting to original specs". it says he basically works the trigger to wring out thefull potential of the design, that isn't achieved due to hasty assembly. pretty much the same thing any smith does with a factory trigger of any mfr. a "trigger job".

AK103K
February 9, 2014, 05:39 PM
You clearly haven't shot a Kivaari fixed trigger. They are not modified. They are set to the original specs.
Maybe you should go read what he says is done to the triggers again and let it sink in. :rolleyes:

If its modified, which it is if its tuned, then its not set to the original specs. He states that in his literature. He even lists it as a "target/match" trigger, and that certainly isnt factory spec.

You made this wild claim about making rifles unsafe and didn't bother backing down from it.
Nothing wild about it, over the years, Ive personally encountered more than a couple of modified rifles and handguns that were either flat out unsafe, or unsafe for "normal" use, due to "trigger jobs". Im sure if you ask around here, you'll find Im not the only one.

You don't know what you're talking about and you aren't interested in learning.
Obviously. :rolleyes:

Oh and my EXACT quote was, "Shooting off hand I can do 3" groups probably." There's nothing in what I said about 2" groups despite your pathetic attempt at putting words in my mouth.
"
Quote:
2-3 inch offhand groups with a SKS are pure bull
I love it when people assume things they can't know. You weren't there the last time I shot my SKS at 100 yards. At least I didn't see you there. Were you hiding in the weeds? "
That was you responding here, right? Not my words.

2", 3", either way, I tend to agree with d2wing's post, even if you dont.

Tell me where you shoot, and Ill hide in the bushes, so you wont feel under pressure to make those groups when you shoot. :D

Better yet, bring that "match modified" SKS down to the next Appleseeed/CMP/HP shoot, and lets see how you do.

I just know what I can do. And you don't.
I only know what youre telling us, and some of us are skeptical.

Cee Zee
February 9, 2014, 09:21 PM
if you read his site it says nothing of "setting to original specs"

It said that when I sent mine in a few years ago. Things change I guess. It's still essentially what he's doing and it is not just the work of any gunsmith. He is setting the rifle to the original specs according to the design. Not many left the factory set the way they should be because they were essentially built by unskilled peasant labor. It was tricky to get it right in the factory and it still is. He sets things up according to the design specs. To me that's setting the trigger to the original specs and I've seen lots of other people say the same thing.

Most rifles don't require the kind of fine tuning an SKS does the way I've read things. Kivaari is known far and wide for doing a better job than anyone else. I'm sure there are others that can do a fine job but not many have spent the time to learn how to work those triggers the way he has. Tom has been doing this for many, many years. I first learned of his work in the 1990's. It was over 5 years ago I had my trigger worked on by him. I'm sure I would have trouble finding the quotes from that time period that I read but I remember it pretty well.

Anyone interested should read this thread on another board for testimonials and details on what is done. I'm not arguing the point here any further.

http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?topic=2845.0

back40
February 9, 2014, 10:11 PM
what you say he does...
He is setting the rifle to the original specs

what he says he does...
With my match/target SKS trigger work, you get it all--- safety, clear 2 stage operation, lowered pull, much less creep, smoothness, repeatability, consistency and give up nothing, well, a few bucks. Each trigger group is different and each one must be done individually; there are no "jigs" or systems that will allow a sear/hammer to be cut for one that will work optimally for another. These are all done by hand for maximized results.


extracting the potential from the design

not a single mention of original specs. sounds just like what many good smiths do to factory triggers all the time.

no doubt it would benefit the accuracy of the sks, as does any finely tuned trigger to any rifle.

AK103K
February 9, 2014, 10:20 PM
He is setting the rifle to the original specs according to the design.
Hmmm, I wonder what specs all those factories, in all those different countries making them were using when they built them, if they werent the correct design specs?

I wonder why my SKS's, and the others Ive shot that werent mine, all seemed to work fine as they came? Must have been a fluke, eh?

Not many left the factory set the way they should be because they were essentially built by unskilled peasant labor.
So essentially what youre saying is, the SKS is a piece of junk, and you need to dump good money after bad to try and rectify things? Is that the jist of it?


Aww, I see. Youre just funnin us and making all this stuff up, aint'cha?


Most rifles don't require the kind of fine tuning an SKS does the way I've read things.
I would hope not. From what Ive seen personally, the SKS's dont need it either, but hey, we've all tried to get that lipstick and wig to stick on that pig at some point, and tried to convince our buddies, its our girl. ;)

Davek1977
February 10, 2014, 05:47 AM
3" groups at 100 yds with a an sks and factory irons is pretty impressive.


I'd even go so far as to qualify that with "from a solid rest." Offhand, 3 in, 100 yd groups with an SKS is, in a word, amazing shooting. Like most things I find amazing, it would take more than someone simply stating they could do it for me to believe it, especially having owned and shot SKS rifles, and having some realistic knowledge of what the average one shoots like.

chicharrones
February 10, 2014, 12:21 PM
I am curious how the "two-stage" Kivaari trigger feels and what is meant mechanically by the two stages? Are there two angles cut on the sear, or is it just the way the sear drags?

On my Norinco, if you pull the trigger slow enough to feel each step of creep, it had three "stages" originally. That means it went, drag-drag-drag-bang.

Then I did my own trigger work on my Norinco SKS with the Wolff springs, filing, and polishing a few years ago. I always err on the side of safety, but what I ended up with is a two "stage" trigger that goes, drag-drag-bang. It still has positive engagement with the hammer moving backwards before letting go. The downside is the Wolff hammer spring won't set off steel case ammo more than 90% of the time. I really need to reinstall the original SKS hammer spring.

The thing is, I never equated separate SKS trigger drag movements as stages like on other triggers with two stages.

esque
February 10, 2014, 01:05 PM
Chicharrones,
It sounds like you have the 27 lb spring
for commercial soft primmer ammo.
Wolff has a 31 lb spring that works well
for the commercial soft primmer and the
import hard primmer. The original spring
is 34 lb.

Shawn Dodson
February 10, 2014, 03:55 PM
I shoot 3" groups with my 16" SKS Paratrooper from the bench using stock iron sights and Yugo surplus ammo. This particular SKS has a pitted bore.

d2wing
February 10, 2014, 08:37 PM
For clarification, many claims on made on the internet that are unlikely. Group sizes and ranges are frequently misstated and a poster recently caught misstating on another forum.
I will believe some of the stories when I see them myself or are in a well witnessed sanctioned competition. To the person that claims to have beaten me in competition, that is a pure fabrication. I would be willing shoot against you. Currently I am working on a .22 Rimfire.

ColtPythonElite
February 10, 2014, 08:49 PM
3" groups at 100 yards on the internet is usually 3" at 50-75 yards after throwing out the "fliers" in person.....Groups sizes are often shooting fish tales.

Cee Zee
February 12, 2014, 07:05 PM
To the person that claims to have beaten me in competition, that is a pure fabrication.

So it doesn't matter when someone shoots better than you? You still don't believe them? It must be awful to be so negative about the world.

paranoia - 2. baseless or excessive suspicion of the motives of others.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/paranoia

I've proven people like you wrong so often it isn't funny. But they never believe it even when they see it. So I'm not wasting my time with it. Welcome to my kill filter. Have a nice day.

AK103K
February 12, 2014, 07:20 PM
So it doesn't matter when someone shoots better than you? You still don't believe them?
I think what matters in this case, is the fact that "you" claimed to me, that you beat them in a match, and I was told by the person you claimed to beat, that the match never took place, they never shot against you, and they have no idea who you are.

Making stuff up doesnt bode well for your credibility.

I've proven people like you wrong so often it isn't funny. But they never believe it even when they see it.
Probably becasue it never happened. ;)

d2wing
February 12, 2014, 08:55 PM
Thank you AK103, I do not know what your problem is Cee Zee but I have never met you , or shot against you and you have never beat me in any competition as you claim. Are you related to Obama or what? As others have said, you credibility is sadly lacking.

chicharrones
February 13, 2014, 08:16 AM
It's obvious we need a High Road SKS match. I'll put up my lack of shooting prowess against anybody. Especially if they happen to be in my town at a nearby range.

Sorry, can't travel to places like Camp Perry. ;)

AK103K
February 13, 2014, 08:54 AM
It's obvious we need a High Road SKS match. I'll put up my lack of shooting prowess against anybody.
Me too. Sounds like fun.

That would quickly bring reality to a head. :)

How many do you think will actually show up?

shafter
February 13, 2014, 09:22 AM
There are plenty of accurate semiautos out there. AR15's, M1 Garands, and M1A's can all be plenty accurate depending on the ammo and the shooter. At least for all practical purposes.

I don't think SKSs have ever been known for their accuracy but inside of a hundred yards I think it would have enough accuracy for hunting or self defense without a doubt.

powder
February 13, 2014, 09:31 AM
Meh, gramps is kinda correct: SKSs will probably never touch a bolt gun.

However, SKSs are NOT to be grouped with ALL semi-auto rifles, either.

Had a Norinco which was pretty decent cold bore, first 2 shots, and after that it was pray/spray-which is what it was designed for. Not accuracy, but for running lead in a certain direction.

Kayaker 1960
February 13, 2014, 09:40 AM
I'm not going so far as to say that some of you guys exaggerate a lot. I don't own an SKS, AK or AR. I once owned a Mini 14 and sold it because 10" groups at 100 yards is just boring to me. Whenever I've been to a range I pretty much only see people shooting AK's and SKS's at the 25-50 yard line and the groups are nothing that I would brag about with a pistol. If I ever see a 3" 100 yard group in person I'll buy rush right out and buy me one of those guns.

AK103K
February 13, 2014, 12:02 PM
Whenever I've been to a range I pretty much only see people shooting AK's and SKS's at the 25-50 yard line and the groups are nothing that I would brag about with a pistol.
I understand what youre saying here, and Ive seen the same thing. I think a lot of that has to do with how they are shooting them, and more often than not, they arent striving for accuracy. Bump fire and mag dumps were all the rage there for awhile. With most semi "hi cap" guns, "trigger control" often becomes an accuracy issue.

I once owned a Mini 14 and sold it because 10" groups at 100 yards is just boring to me.
I had one of them once too back in the 80's. I got it used, maybe it was yours. :)

The older Mini's were kind of hit or miss. I had one that shot really well group wise, but different lots of ammo would shoot all over the place, and not the same POA.

My buddy has a couple of the new Mini's, and they shoot pretty much like the AR's. They have cleaned up their act a good bit.

I currently have a number of AR's and AK's, and if youre shooting "target" style, the AR's win hands down. No doubt about it, they just make the better "target" rifle, especially the rifles set up that way.

If you compare a "stock" AR and "stock" AK, with a good red dot mounted on them, and shoot them a little more realistically, the hits on people type targets are very similar out to 200 yards or so.

If I ever see a 3" 100 yard group in person I'll buy rush right out and buy me one of those guns.
I dont think 3"-4" at 100 yards, with a resonable shooter, shooting deliberately from a good field position, is an unreasonable expectation with an SKS or an AK, shooting ammo it likes. I think the guns are capable of it. What you feed them, and/or who is doing the shooting, is more of an issue.

Shooting that off hand on a regular basis, is another story, ammo or not.

back40
February 13, 2014, 12:13 PM
Shooting that off hand on a regular basis, is another story, ammo or not.

Seems like more of a tall tale to me. ;)

AK103K
February 13, 2014, 12:23 PM
Hey, a blind squirrel finds finds the bull once in awhile. :)

If he can do it on demand, thats Yoda, or one of my old Sensei's shooting withone hand, while clapping with the other. You know that sound, dont you? :D

Cee Zee
February 13, 2014, 02:07 PM
I don't think SKSs have ever been known for their accuracy

Actually they were. The first time I ever heard of an SKS was on the local tv channel news. A sheriff got shot right between the eyes with one. They went on for 5 minutes about an accurate rifle being sold dirt cheap with dirt cheap ammo to go with it. I went out and bought one not long after that. And lots of people talked about their accuracy at that time.

You know I feel sorry for all these net experts that think they can tell how someone shoots without seeing it. I've proven a lot of them wrong but there's always some guy that thinks that because they can't do it then no one can. It's a waste of time trying to educate you people. You might learn something if you paid attention. I've seen people that haven't been shooting for any time at all telling some of the best shooters on earth they couldn't do what they said they could do. Those shooters generally leave because of that crap. They can't tell the truth because they just get called a liar over and over. I've won a lot of shooting competitions in my life. I'll leave it at that. I truly believe that most of you can't shoot 3" groups at 100 yards even off a rest. Maybe I'll drag out my video cameras and shoot some video of me shooting my SKS when the weather breaks. Until then I'm done with this thread. The people who assume everyone shoots like them aren't worth the hassle. Have a nice day. Goodbye.

One last thing:

Shooting that off hand on a regular basis, is another story, ammo or not.

I think an SKS is about a perfect rifle for shooting off hand. It's short and the weight is back against you allowing you to hold a tighter aim. Then there's the use of a strap and doing that right. Most people have no idea how to use one. Then there's the fact that I learned to shoot off hand and was laughed at by my brothers if I ever tried to use a rest. They still do that. I've seen them shoot things that would make most people's heads spin around like in the Exorcist. Shooting off hand is something that is learned over many years of practice. If you want to be a successful hunter you must know how to shoot off hand. I've shot bats flying through the air off hand. I've shot very small birds the same way. No I don't shoot birds unless they are a nuisance and that bird was one. Most of these people have never shot anywhere near the number of rounds I've shot in my life and most of my shooting was off hand. If you can hit a running squirrel in the head off hand then you'll know what I'm talking about. I don't doubt there are some good shooters around. But most of the ones here are range shooters. I was 55 years old before I ever set foot on a range. I grew up a hillbilly and the first thing a hillbilly has to know is how to shoot off hand. Let's talk about what shotgun shooters do when they shoot clays. I grew up on a trap range. Not only is that all off hand but it's point shooting. And I've seen video of guys shooting clays at 100 yards. Yes that's the same distance we're talking, with a shotgun, at a flying target that's 4" across and of course it's all off hand.

Too many people are limited in their thinking around here. Just remember the fact you can't do it is not evidence no one can do it. I certainly can't shoot clays at 100 yards. Not many can. But my targets aren't flying through the air either.

chicharrones
February 13, 2014, 02:13 PM
I truly believe that most of you can't shoot 3" groups at 100 yards even off a rest.

You're right. I've never had the success of shooting groups like that at that distance with my SKS off a rest. Off a rest with other guns, it's not usually a problem to beat my Norinco. But, I only have that one SKS and a Yugo SKS (a friend of mine has) as a sample pool.

fteter
February 13, 2014, 02:33 PM
Speaking strictly from my own experience - not a super soldier or expert marksman, just a run-of-the-mill shooter.

My SKS is Chinese. Under ideal conditions, the accuracy is all I could ask for out to 150 yards. 2 - 3 inch groupings. Misses are typically the fault of the shooter rather than the rifle or the ammo. Just shooting Tula...nothing special. Iron sights, bench rest.

I also shoot a Mosin Nagant M44. Past 150, the bolt-action Mosin is much...and I mean MUCH...more accurate than the SKS. Shooting Russian milsurp in the Mosin, again nothing special. My Mosin groupings match those of the SKS at 150 yards. Longer ranges really point out the differences. The Mosin holds 4 - 6 inch groups out to 250 yards (after that my eyes crap out). Again, iron sights and bench rest. I'm just happy to hit paper with the SKS at that distance.

Can't speak for all bolts versus all semi-autos. But, in terms of accuracy, my experience has been that the bolt-action M44 is much more accurate than the SKS at ranges exceeding 150 yards.

BTW, I agree with Cee Zee that the SKS is a real hoot to shoot off-hand. Fun, fun, and more fun! Great for moving and shooting as well.

AK103K
February 13, 2014, 03:19 PM
I think an SKS is about a perfect rifle for shooting off hand. It's short and the weight is back against you allowing you to hold a tighter aim. Then there's the use of a strap and doing that right. Most people have no idea how to use one.
"You just keep talkin Butch...." That hole is getting deeper and deeper. :)

Since youre the expert match shooter, I would have thought you'd know that a sling isnt permitted in the offhand stage. Your skills are based on free hand shooting, with no supplemental support.

The SKS's front sling attachment point, like the AK's, arent the best for sling shooting in general, and their slings dont generally work out well for practical/hasty sling type shooting, in most all the positions. They are basically just carry slings, and dont work like our 1907 type, or our M1/M14 web slings, which do work well for shooting use.

As far as weight distribution, I believe if you ask any target shooter that knows their stuff, youll find they prefer a barrel heavy rifle for offhand shooting, and for obvious reasons.

Since you claim to be a hillbilly, I would again had thought you knew that, from holding and shooting those old traditional PA type muzzle loading rifles every hillbilly learns to shoot on. ;) :D

Too many people are limited in their thinking around here.
I dont think its limited thinking thats the issue, far from it really, as I think most of us want to, and are willing to learn. What I think the real issue here is, and more and more as you type, is limited believing. ;)

d2wing
February 13, 2014, 03:20 PM
Shooting clays at 100 yards? With what kind of shells? I shoot competitively sporting clays and trap, and hunt extensively with a shotgun. And I am a certified instructor. I have never seen a load that will reach 100 yards in any shotgun. Some of what is said makes sense but the level of exaggeration and outright fabrication makes the whole story a load of bs.but then we are talking about accurate SKS's.
I like the idea of a match. I have a Saiga and an AR and a 7400. I would love another trip to Texas but I don't know if I can go that far for a match.

Cee Zee
February 13, 2014, 05:18 PM
OK wing ole boy. You asked for it. Now admit you're wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Teixm6JMw_k

Looks like you'll have to eat crow on this too. That's just the way it is with you people who like to call others liars. Tell us again how "you" are the expert. You're certified alright. But at what?

I wasn't coming back here but you need to learn some manners. When I say something it's true AFAIK. Where do you live? Do you live close to Ohio or Kentucky? I'll be glad to demonstrate some things for you. Well it wouldn't do any good so what's the use. Just remember. I just showed that you're full of misinformation. Bye.

And you AK boy. I wasn't born 100 years ago. I've never even seen a real PA rifle in the field. Never. You people keep talking and you keep proving how little you really know about shooting. Who said I was shooting match type off hand shootign? 99 people out of 100 would call what I do with an SKS off hand. I guess there's one in every crowd. I just wonder if you realize how ridiculous you sound. You have called a dozen people here liars. You think you know things you can't possibly know. There's a word for what you're doing but this is the high road. My word is bye.

chicharrones
February 13, 2014, 05:47 PM
Maybe I'll drag out my video cameras and shoot some video of me shooting my SKS when the weather breaks.

OK wing ole boy. You asked for it. Now admit you're wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Teixm6JMw_k

I had my hopes up that you went out and filmed a dual camera video of you and your SKS when you linked that video. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-confused001.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

chicharrones
February 13, 2014, 05:52 PM
Chicharrones,
It sounds like you have the 27 lb spring
for commercial soft primmer ammo.
Wolff has a 31 lb spring that works well
for the commercial soft primmer and the
import hard primmer. The original spring
is 34 lb.

Thanks for the tip, by the way. :)

AK103K
February 13, 2014, 06:21 PM
Who said I was shooting match type off hand shootign? 99 people out of 100 would call what I do with an SKS off hand.
Well please do enlighten us. Even a pic will do, you dont have to get the 8mm out.

I've never even seen a real PA rifle in the field. Never.
Really? You should get out more. They (original guns) are fairly popular in some crowds here, and the boys I knew who shot them on a regular basis, are true off hand shooters. The guns are .45 and .50 caliber muzzle loading rifles, simple open sights, and the targets are eggs (and some other equally small targets) hanging by a string at 50 and 100 yards. (Bucks County Fish and Game was the place they shoot (I havent belonged there for awhile now, so Im assuming they still do), if you want to come check it out ;))


You have called a dozen people here liars.
No, I just questioned some things I find doubtful. (Hey, Im was trying to be diplomatic too. :)). I simply said I doubted "most" could do 2"-3" with an SKS (or most other things) shooting off hand, "on demand", and I still stick by that.

You keep telling stories like you have been, and we can upgrade things though, if you'd like. Hey, I tried giving you the benefit of the doubt, but you just keep at it, diggin that old hole just deeper and deeper.

Perhaps you'd like to share that story you told me about repeatedly whooping d2wing's butt in matches with the rest here. If you forgot what you said, I can cut and paste it if you like.

d2wing
February 13, 2014, 09:51 PM
Wow, I watch the video. I would not have thought the shot would hold any pattern at that range. I am impressed and apologize to you CZ. Learn something new everyday. I don't know if you know about the army quick kill program. It is training I went through during Vietnam on how to point shoot an M-14. You asked about me, I shot expert in the Army with several weapons and was with the AMU. I was also trained as a shooting sports instructor for several weapons and am certified by NRA, DNR gun safety, and the state for marksmanship for 4-H. I also have shot in competition. Yeah I am a cranky old vet and I call them like I see m. I wasn't interested in this thread until you started telling lies about me behind my back. If you can figure out how to tell lies and not expect to be called a liar you must be a democrat politician.

Casefull
February 13, 2014, 10:04 PM
There are obviously a lot of posters on this thread who have no idea how far 100 yds is or what a 3 inch group is. More than likely 100 ft with 3 holes out of 20 that qualify as a 3in group. Come on guys, you are so full of it. And then throw in 'offhand' to boot. This sounds like a group of high school boys bragging about there prowess with the opposite sex.

txcookie
February 14, 2014, 04:03 PM
I am thinking about an SKS as well. I do not exxpect accuracy and to compare them to a rem 700 is just plain dumb IMO. I want an sks for plinking and hog shooting all shots would be within a 100. If I need to reach out and impress someone I already have a rem in 270 that is abnormally accurate.

txcookie
February 14, 2014, 04:05 PM
Casefull

I could not agree more. Its nice to see people claim to shoot 3 inch groups offhand at 100 with iron sights of milsurp wirfles. Its like they have a sign around their neck!!

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