Public Shooting Range Dress Code?


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Kynoch
February 5, 2014, 09:27 PM
If you owned a shooting range or was otherwise responsible for all policy and operations, which was open to the public, what garb/equipment requirements should be mandatory or prohibited? Thanks.

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Sam Cade
February 5, 2014, 09:30 PM
Eye protection and hearing protection required at all times that the range was live.

jerkface11
February 5, 2014, 09:31 PM
I'd require pants too.

SilentScream
February 5, 2014, 09:34 PM
Eyes and Ears..... Clothing optional.

JRH6856
February 5, 2014, 09:36 PM
Shoes. No flip-flops! I hate watching someone with a loaded gun dancing with a hot case stuck between their toes.

silicosys4
February 5, 2014, 09:37 PM
If you are looking to limit your personal liability, eye/ear protection, and closed toed shoes. Other than that, no profanity on shirts.

Those would be my rules.

jerkface11
February 5, 2014, 09:39 PM
If you require real shoes I'm staying home. Ive never had hot brass get stuck in my flip flop. If it hits your foot just kick and it's gone. Oh and I didn't mean long pants in my other post shorts would also be fine.

Racinfan83
February 5, 2014, 09:44 PM
Eyes, ears, and no gang attire. The rest of it is personal preference. If I don't mind hot brass touching various parts of my body - then that should be my choice...

Kynoch
February 5, 2014, 09:45 PM
As a little addendum, I suspect some companies that provide insurance to shooting ranges actually require eye and ear protection and perhaps closed-toed footwear.

oneounceload
February 5, 2014, 09:46 PM
Eyes and ears, nothing more is required

Kynoch
February 5, 2014, 09:54 PM
Shoes. No flip-flops! I hate watching someone with a loaded gun dancing with a hot case stuck between their toes.
The inability for some to maintain muzzle discipline while trying to clear hot brass from their open-toed footwear is another reason for possibly requiring closed-toed footwear.

MErl
February 5, 2014, 10:02 PM
Eyes & ears are a damn good idea but I'm not gonna complain if someone is shooting on the BLM land without em. I wouldn't even complain if they did it at the members only range (though I would offer em a loaner pair of glasses and some free plugs).

Someone wants to risk their eyes or damage their hearing that is not my problem.

RPRNY
February 5, 2014, 10:04 PM
Eyes, ears, tweed breeks , jackets (linen in the summer months one supposes) and a bloody tie. No need for scruffians to be about! ;)

Deltaboy
February 5, 2014, 10:11 PM
I wear Cargo Shorts to the out door range in the Summer Time.

taliv
February 5, 2014, 10:17 PM
there's a big difference in saying i wouldn't wear something vs saying others should be prohibited.

generally speaking, you should let people do whatever they want unless your insurance requires otherwise or you have a very good reason. if they want to wear shorts and flip flops, that's their business. heck, i still wear shorts and sandals. sometimes i catch a piece of hot brass. big deal. geez people. harden up.

Kynoch
February 5, 2014, 10:20 PM
Eyes & ears are a damn good idea but I'm not gonna complain if someone is shooting on the BLM land without em. I wouldn't even complain if they did it at the members only range (though I would offer em a loaner pair of glasses and some free plugs).

Someone wants to risk their eyes or damage their hearing that is not my problem.
Original question:

"If you owned a shooting range or was otherwise responsible for all policy and operations, which was open to the public, what garb/equipment requirements should be mandatory or prohibited? Thanks."

smalls
February 5, 2014, 10:21 PM
If I owned the range? Eyes and ears are required, that's it. Wear whatever floats your boat, you're signing a CYA waiver, anyway. I want their money, not to give them fashion tips.

Gang colors? An LA Laker's jersey is in Latin Kings colors, how are you going to tell the difference between a gangster and a basketball fan? I have friends in MC's that wear cuts, but they're in no way criminals. How many of you even know what colors your local bangers even wear?

Kynoch
February 5, 2014, 10:23 PM
there's a big difference in saying i wouldn't wear something vs saying others should be prohibited.

generally speaking, you should let people do whatever they want unless your insurance requires otherwise or you have a very good reason. if they want to wear shorts and flip flops, that's their business. heck, i still wear shorts and sandals. sometimes i catch a piece of hot brass. big deal. geez people. harden up.

I don't think it's as simplistic as that. Insurance matters are very important. No question there. While insurers might well mandate eye and hearing protection and closed-toed shoes, they might not care about (for example) gang attire or clothes with offensive graphics or verbiage on them.

However such garb does offend others -- it even causes anxiety for some, keeping them away from shooting. So there is not only a possible monetary impact to the range owner (potential loss of patrons wearing gang or otherwise offensive attire, vs. those driven away by such attire), there is also a potential image issue for ranges and the gun culture in general, especially when kids are around.

USAF_Vet
February 5, 2014, 10:28 PM
If I owned a range, it would be eyes and ears, and they would be provided so there is no 'I left them at home' excuses. Closed toed shoes would be recommended, as would long pants but I'm not.making it mandatory.

taliv
February 5, 2014, 10:29 PM
why not? it is around here. i'm a member of several ranges. not a single one has a dress code.

HammsBeer
February 5, 2014, 10:31 PM
Eyes and ears only.

If you want to wear a speedo and flip flops / mall ninja tactical attire / baggy pants half down your butt thats fine.
So long as you have proper gun handling and muzzle awareness.

I would consider some sort of footwear requirement, just so somebody doesn't end up with a brass casing piercing the bottom of their foot!

WestKentucky
February 5, 2014, 10:34 PM
Along with flip flops...hot brass down the crack makes for scary dances. No sagging allowed.

grimjaw
February 5, 2014, 10:36 PM
No shoes, no shirt, no service, but whatever kind of those somebody wants to wear is fine with me.

Kynoch
February 5, 2014, 10:36 PM
why not? it is around here. i'm a member of several ranges. not a single one has a dress code.
So what if they don't have dress codes. Exactly what does that prove in all sincerity?

Arkansas Paul
February 5, 2014, 10:46 PM
I'm with taliv.
I would stress safety, not dress.
You sign a waiver saying you are responsible for yourself.
You don't want to wear eye and ear protection, its your eyes and ears, knock yourself out. I wouldn't shoot without it but I'm not a big fan of telling adults what to do. I don't think seat belts and motorcycle helmets should be mandatory either, though I do wear my seatbelt and would wear a helmet if I gave a crap about riding motorcycles.

I would probably make a rule where people 18 and under had to wear eyes and ears. Once you're old enough to vote and go to war, make your own decision.

As far as shirts and stuff with offensive sayings, whatever. Don't care about that.

MErl
February 5, 2014, 10:47 PM
Original question:

Same response still. Unless required by law or by insurance I would not require anything.

Kynoch
February 5, 2014, 10:49 PM
If I owned the range? Eyes and ears are required, that's it. Wear whatever floats your boat, you're signing a CYA waiver, anyway. I want their money, not to give them fashion tips.

Gang colors? An LA Laker's jersey is in Latin Kings colors, how are you going to tell the difference between a gangster and a basketball fan? I have friends in MC's that wear cuts, but they're in no way criminals. How many of you even know what colors your local bangers even wear?
That's not a simple question to answer. Around here, law enforcement provides intelligence to business owners and event promoters on gang colors and other affectations. The businesses do have dress codes based in part on this intelligence.

If I actually "...owned a shooting range or was otherwise responsible for all policy and operations..." I would make use of this intelligence. In the specific case of bikers and their cuts, it would be easy enough to leave them in their vehicles. I would do that simply because I didn't want other patrons to feel uncomfortable around the bikers in the setting of a shooting range so it can be viewed as a monetary concern (people staying away.)

In the case of some cuts (eg. Hell's Angels) sporting the cuts pretty much means you're violent trash and most people don't want to be around them. The last thing I would want is for a range I was responsible for to become known as a hang-out for such people.

Better to just leave the cuts in their vehicles/range bags.

2bfree
February 5, 2014, 10:49 PM
My clubs only rule is eyes and ears on the handgun range, ears only on all other ranges. Clothing is any thing you want. I am fine with that.

Kynoch
February 5, 2014, 10:50 PM
I'm with taliv.
I would stress safety, not dress.
You sign a waiver saying you are responsible for yourself.
You don't want to wear eye and ear protection, its your eyes and ears, knock yourself out. I wouldn't shoot without it but I'm not a big fan of telling adults what to do. I don't think seat belts and motorcycle helmets should be mandatory either, though I do wear my seatbelt and would wear a helmet if I gave a crap about riding motorcycles.

I would probably make a rule where people 18 and under had to wear eyes and ears. Once you're old enough to vote and go to war, make your own decision.

As far as shirts and stuff with offensive sayings, whatever. Don't care about that.

You might if it impacted the income of the range you owned or managed.

MagnunJoe
February 5, 2014, 10:50 PM
No pants down your crack or no underwear above your waist would be nice.

Kynoch
February 5, 2014, 10:53 PM
No pants down your crack or no underwear above your waist would be nice.
Now THAT should be a federal law! ;)

gdcpony
February 5, 2014, 10:54 PM
While I know that liability would keep me from what I wish, I would allow them to decide for themselves. Safety for kids would be required though.

grimjaw
February 5, 2014, 10:56 PM
Around here, law enforcement provides intelligence to business owners and event promoters on gang colors and other affectations.

I guess gangs are pretty bad where you are in CA. I've lived in five different states: AR, MS, NC, OH and WA. In none of those places was I concerned about what people wore, even if it did make them look thuggish. It would be the guy in the next stall wearing glasses/muffs/collared shirt/loafers, because he'd be sweeping the entire line with the muzzle of his handgun with his finger on the trigger. Attire you find objectionable, offensive or frightening won't kill you. This might as well be the "guns don't kill, people do" argument but worded differently.

taliv
February 5, 2014, 10:58 PM
well, you edited post 18 after i responded, but my answer is the same. if you want to discourage and make certain elements unwelcome, then do it through your interaction with them. not by targeting stereotypes and making a list of rules.

say you reserve the right to restrict access. in the range agreement say you must submit to NICS check (you don't have to do it, just let them know that if they can't pass a background check, they can't shoot)

Kynoch
February 5, 2014, 10:58 PM
Around here, law enforcement provides intelligence to business owners and event promoters on gang colors and other affectations.

I guess gangs are pretty bad where you are in CA. I've lived in five different states: AR, MS, NC, OH and WA. In none of those places was I concerned about what people wore, even if it did make them look thuggish. It would be the guy in the next stall wearing glasses/muffs/collared shirt/loafers, because he'd be sweeping the entire line with the muzzle of his handgun with his finger on the trigger. Attire you find objectionable, offensive or frightening won't kill you. This might as well be the "guns don't kill, people do" argument but worded differently.

Actually they are not. However they have not yet been eradicated and using this sort of intelligence is a tool to do just that.

Arkansas Paul
February 5, 2014, 11:01 PM
You might if it impacted the income of the range you owned or managed.

Maybe.
I don't think it would come into play though.

Most things aren't an issue until someone makes them an issue.

Kynoch
February 5, 2014, 11:03 PM
well, you edited post 18 after i responded, but my answer is the same. if you want to discourage and make certain elements unwelcome, then do it through your interaction with them. not by targeting stereotypes and making a list of rules.

say you reserve the right to restrict access. in the range agreement say you must submit to NICS check (you don't have to do it, just let them know that if they can't pass a background check, they can't shoot)
Now THAT is some good input! I would largely agree too (except for the eyes, ears and closed-toed footwear) if I could be assured that the entire staff of the range would be uniform in its application.

That's a world away from the "whatever, I don't care" or the "mind your own business view, is is 'marica' " projected by some.


NB: I only "edited" it so I could read your comments as I typed.

Hardtarget
February 5, 2014, 11:12 PM
The "eyes and ears" rule for 18 and under works for me. If an adult doesn't care...well.

Some wording on SOME clothing...if I'm there with my family(wife/kids) I should have some input on that being covered up. If its that bad, they should leave...not me.

Open clothing? If it burns and you do the "dance" and sweep every one...you leave. If the girls don't want to protect "the girls"... well...just don't sweep the line!

Shooting CAN be a dangerous sport and hot brass is part of the catalyst for unsafe action. There are several things we can do to make that dangerous part less likely.

Mark

.455_Hunter
February 5, 2014, 11:15 PM
One of the last times I was at large public range, the young guy at the next station was dressed in a manner many of you would describe as "thuggish". His weapons of choice- a fine collection of vintage S&W .38s (M&Ps, Model 10s). His shooting put most of the OWGs "old white guys" to shame. ;)

grimjaw
February 5, 2014, 11:17 PM
Actually they are not. However they have not yet been eradicated and using this sort of intelligence is a tool to do just that.

Well, that's useful for them, I guess, but I agree with taliv.

If the range owner thinks his place of business is being used as a practice ground for drive-by shooters and cap-poppers, there are other ways to discourage it than a dress code. If he's just trying to court a select customer base, I can tell you right now that any dress restriction past eye and ear protection will keep me from frequenting the business and it's not b/c my pants have to be pulled up every five seconds. The one range I do frequent locally has a bunch of rules, but they are all related to safety (when the line is cold/hot, when you can handle your firearm, etc). I'd hate to think that in barring people, especially young people, because of their attire that we also drive them into the arms of anti-2A types.

Big_E
February 5, 2014, 11:47 PM
I would definitely require Eyes, Ears and closed-toe shoes.

All of the other stuff I don't really care about. People should be allowed to dress however they want as long as it isn't over the top.

Gang related wear? Well I am in Idaho so no real issues with that. I've been to concerts and other events that prohibit such attire. Unfortunately, what defines gang attire is entirely subjective. I had a buddy who went to an event wearing a basketball jersey and they wouldn't let him in. Disappointing.

My point being that people shouldn't have to feel like they need to dress in a particular way to enjoy shooting. Unless you are opening an upscale range where you want to promote a certain dress code for your target customers. However, I assume we are talking about an average range.

Heck, I'd be lenient on the shoes thing too. Just coming from a dude who has spent a lot of time in science labs, shoes and eye wear are good for safety.

As for the "Rambo" crowd. Let them dress that way. They spent the money on it, why shouldn't the rest of the range-goers have some entertainment.

All this being said, I shoot in the desert and woods so I don't really concern myself with dress codes ;)

wally
February 6, 2014, 12:39 AM
Other than ear and eye protection the rest are potentially problematic in some regards.

It gets really hot here, requiring long sleeved shirts and pants would cut down shooting hours for me. The hot brass issue is best fixed with walls/screens or adequate distance between shooting stations instead of dress codes.

As to "offensive" who gets to decide? Free speech and all that.

As to gang colors and signs, who is the authority? Some "gang signs" I see flashed on TV sure look like "hook 'em horns" that you see at UT football games in Austin. Crips vs. Bloods, are you gonna ban red and blue? Maybe "prison tattoos" should be on the list.

Again, over the top Rambo wear, who decides what is "over the top"?

Kynoch
February 6, 2014, 12:43 AM
I would definitely require Eyes, Ears and closed-toe shoes.

All of the other stuff I don't really care about. People should be allowed to dress however they want as long as it isn't over the top.

Gang related wear? Well I am in Idaho so no real issues with that. I've been to concerts and other events that prohibit such attire. Unfortunately, what defines gang attire is entirely subjective. I had a buddy who went to an event wearing a basketball jersey and they wouldn't let him in. Disappointing.

My point being that people shouldn't have to feel like they need to dress in a particular way to enjoy shooting. Unless you are opening an upscale range where you want to promote a certain dress code for your target customers. However, I assume we are talking about an average range.

Heck, I'd be lenient on the shoes thing too. Just coming from a dude who has spent a lot of time in science labs, shoes and eye wear are good for safety.

As for the "Rambo" crowd. Let them dress that way. They spent the money on it, why shouldn't the rest of the range-goers have some entertainment.

All this being said, I shoot in the desert and woods so I don't really concern myself with dress codes ;)
That's not always true. In certain locales, certain colors have very strong meanings with respect to gangs. So do wearing bandannas in a certain way, or specific types of hats or jewelry.

There is an Elks hall not too far from where I live. They had a problem with members/guests wearing head-to-toe Oakland Raiders garb and then acting like jerks.

They passed a rule -- no gang garb and in their case it included sports teams garb. Pretty drastic I think, but it absolutely extinguished the problem.

Arkansas Paul
February 6, 2014, 12:58 AM
Kynoch, reading stuff like that makes me glad I live in the backwoods of Arkansas.
No worries about that mess out here.

janedoedad
February 6, 2014, 01:33 AM
Those who think that gangs are not in their area; High probability that you are incorrect. Maybe not in your neighborhood, but almost certainly in your town.

So far as range dress code goes: Eyes, Ears Mandatory. Highly recommend that women do not wear V-neck or low-cut tops. I have seen a few brass in the bra dances. While somewhat entertaining, muzzle discipline tends to be forgotten. :what:

fiftybmg
February 6, 2014, 02:27 AM
The question of dress code would not need to be raised if everyone was sensible about it.

People that walk around in their underwear with pants hanging off their thighs by default don't have enough IQ to be on a shooting range, so for their safety, they should stay home.

Inebriated
February 6, 2014, 02:44 AM
Sign a waiver saying I'm not liable, and I don't care what you do or do not wear.*


*I don't know how "tight" a waiver is in actually absolving you of liability, and would look into it before actually opening a range.

Kynoch
February 6, 2014, 03:04 AM
Kynoch, reading stuff like that makes me glad I live in the backwoods of Arkansas.
No worries about that mess out here.
What "mess"? Gangs? The only way gangs would impact me personally is if I dressed like a wannabe banger and then tried to enter some clubs or other activity venues that forbid such garb.

Kynoch
February 6, 2014, 03:07 AM
The question of dress code would not need to be raised if everyone was sensible about it.

People that walk around in their underwear with pants hanging off their thighs by default don't have enough IQ to be on a shooting range, so for their safety, they should stay home.
Very, very true.

And whether some want to admit it or not, being in the presence of someone dressed and looking like a gang banger in line at the grocery versus next to them on the firing line is quite different.

fiftybmg
February 6, 2014, 04:44 AM
Wearing clothes at the range is a safety thing, more than a fashion statement, or lack thereof.

Range safety comes first.

A piece of hot brass in your sandal or slip slop, down a woman's cleavage, or between the vest and a man's chest, will produce a reaction, and that reaction may not be safe for the other people there, because there is the very real chance of being muzzle-swept or of an AD that may not be downrange.

Not wearing the correct basics may or may not harm the shooter, that is the shooter's problem, but if it may harm someone else, then that is the range's problem, so the range is entitled to insist on a dress code.

It's very possible to encounter shrapnel or a ricochet at a shooting range, a lack of clothing and protective wear doesn't help with that either.

rhinoh
February 6, 2014, 04:57 AM
Gang colors? In SC the State Fair last fall banned entry to anyone wearing camouflage as it was deemed gang colors!
Uuuh...half the people in SC wear camouflage all the time, which I thinks looks stupid*, but that is a different debate...


*especially when pants/shirt/jacket/hat are 4 different patterns:p

allin
February 6, 2014, 05:19 AM
If you owned a shooting range or was otherwise responsible for all policy and operations, which was open to the public, what garb/equipment requirements should be mandatory or prohibited? Thanks.
Eyes & ears. I see a lot of voting for restricting offensive graphics and sayings on shirts. Careful!! many people feel that anything related to firearms is offensive. Some people think my Jimmy Buffett shirts and ball caps are offensive (they are so completely, irrevocably, unequivocally, WRONG!) if you don't like JB you are a sick puppy. IMHO.
Good rule of thumb, safety important, censorship be careful, very very careful.
Just sayin

Kynoch
February 6, 2014, 06:27 AM
Eyes & ears. I see a lot of voting for restricting offensive graphics and sayings on shirts. Careful!! many people feel that anything related to firearms is offensive. Some people think my Jimmy Buffett shirts and ball caps are offensive (they are so completely, irrevocably, unequivocally, WRONG!) if you don't like JB you are a sick puppy. IMHO.
Good rule of thumb, safety important, censorship be careful, very very careful.
Just sayin
Like it or not there are some things that are objectively offensive. Shirts with curse words or sex scenes printed all over them. The sort of garbage that should never be worn around kids. Has absolutely no place at a public range.

Allowing that sort of garb damages the pro-2A image.

bannockburn
February 6, 2014, 06:33 AM
Eyes and ears protected; closed toe footwear recommended.

beatledog7
February 6, 2014, 07:07 AM
If a piece of hot brass goes down your shirt or into your shoe and you start doing the owie dance, how's your muzzle control?

Safety sometimes trumps freedom, else why mandate eyes and ears?

MagnunJoe
February 6, 2014, 07:13 AM
No sandals because a hot spent cartridge can fall between your toes and that hurts like hell.

1911 guy
February 6, 2014, 07:14 AM
I voted for eyes and ears, closed toe shoes and prohibit gang attire. I thunk trying to regulate more than that would be both cumbersome and restrictive to potential clients.

Like a lot of things in life, I have an opinion but it's not my place to force it on others. I won't wear an offensive T-shirt in public, but to toss out a shooter because I deem it so may cause more problems than it would potentially solve.

On An Island
February 6, 2014, 08:34 AM
Eyes, ears and no gang colors. The gang colors to be defined by talking to my local LEOs about what is and isn't. Other than that, I'd hope customers would come in, enjoy the range and socialize with fellow shooters.

jerkface11
February 6, 2014, 08:36 AM
It sounds like some of you have never worn flip flops while shooting.

bearcreek
February 6, 2014, 09:04 AM
If I owned a range the only rules regarding clothing or safety gear that I would consider would be about offensive sayings or pictures on clothing. If a person wants to ruin their hearing or burn their cleavage, then that's their business, it doesn't harm anybody else. If they're going to piss other customers off with offensive t shirt graphics, that's my business. Even then it would probably be somewhat dependent on the normal customer base. Now, if burning their cleavage causes them to endanger other people then that would be handled like any other unsafe handling incident. Don't care what caused the unsafe action.

zdc1775
February 6, 2014, 09:24 AM
Assuming this is an outdoor range I would have a sign requiring eye and ear protection for insurance purposes but would probably loosely enforce it on any adults. Kids would actually be required to wear them. An indoor range and I would actually have someone to enforce the eyes and ears, otherwise just basic range rules. I would however have both adult and child sized hearing and eye protection at either in case someone forgot and wanted to use it.

oneounceload
February 6, 2014, 09:49 AM
but would probably loosely enforce it on any adults.

So when a yahoo has some powder flash back into his eyes or a ricochet or he has hearing problems and decides to sue you, what then?

Eyes and ears are mandatory, whether shooting, using a weedeater, power washer or anything loud where something might spray back into your face

buck460XVR
February 6, 2014, 09:57 AM
It's bad enough we have to suffer with Grammar Nazis on internet gun forums, we shouldn't have to endure "dress code Nazis" at the range. Eyes and ears need to be protected, but one needs to focus on their own target and not what someone else is wearing.

Arkansas Paul
February 6, 2014, 10:09 AM
What "mess"? Gangs? The only way gangs would impact me personally is if I dressed like a wannabe banger and then tried to enter some clubs or other activity venues that forbid such garb.

Yes, I was talking about gangs in general. We don't have those kinds of problems in the backwoods. :)
I was just saying I'm thankful for that.

Shirts with curse words or sex scenes printed all over them.

I've never seen a sex scene printed on a shirt, but if you owned a private business I certainly wouldn't blame you for prohibiting that.
I've certainly never witnessed firsthand offensive clothing at the range. I think instead of making blanket rules that make you look like a "dress code nazi" like buck460XVR mentioned, I would personally take it on a case by case basis. I really think the likelyhood of it being an issue is slim. Just deal with it if and when it becomes necessary.

Carl N. Brown
February 6, 2014, 11:25 AM
eye and ear protection required, otherwise come as you are

I voted for:
o Eye protection required.
o Hearing protection required.

I did not vote for:
o Hat or cap required. I have problems fitting muffs over my cap.
o Collared shirt or jacket required. I would recommend but not require; physical discomfort can distract from mental attention to safety.
o Long pants required. I would recommend but not require.
o Closed-toe footwear required. I would recommend but not require.
o Sleeveless shirts/tops prohibited. I would recommend but not require; physical discomfort can distract from mental attention to safety.
o Offensive graphics or verbiage on clothing prohibited. What people find offensive is subjective.
o Gang attire prohibited. To pacify the crips and bloods, all blue and red clothes would have to be barred.
o Over-the-top camo/Rambo-wear prohibited.Some people's opinion on over-the-top is over the top.

In other words, I would require hearing and eye protection and recommend most others but there allow freedom of choice based on individual preferences. I would recommend that brass catching cleavage, bosom or butt, should be covered.

The local gun club expelled a bad actor by calling him out for his bad acts (temper tantrums like a golfer but on a shooting range).

Gang attire. We had a father and three people arrested on a "murder trip" because the mother sent the son to visitation with the dad, the son wearing a blue shirt and the dad, a Blood, saw red and threatened murder, blue being a Crip color. The father and three companions were busted on the way to the mom's home, with a loaded gun in the vehicle accessible to the passenger compartment. Then my green shirt could be seen as supporting IRA by someone.

Collars. I got a piece of .45 hot brass caught against my neck by a collared shirt; I ignored the burn till that stage of the match was complete. The scab took a week to fall off. An uncollared shirt would not have caught it.

Offensive clothing. Ideally we could adopt the "no graven images" doctrine and allow only abstract graphics and no words, but that would violate secular law on seperation of church and shooting range, or something.

Long pants. They once spotted seven copperhead vipers at the rifle range during a repavement of the firing line, and I encountered one returning from a target check. On the mountain at the old family property, copperheads and rattlers are a concern. I always wear long pants outdoors, with boot tops almost to my calves.

Camo. I get peeved at people who object to any military camo. When a family friend (Master Sergeant) was deployed to Afghanistan and had to replace his woodland camo with desert camo, he asked my son if he wanted his bdus (bought and tailored on his own coin) for utility/hunting clothing as long as he removed all unit, rank and name insignia. I wear one (stripped of all insignia patches) as range/mountain wear because it is durable, not too hot in hot weather, holds in body heat when it cools, has lotsa pockets.

TRX
February 6, 2014, 11:30 AM
If you own the range, it's your right to set a dress code, I guess. But some of those suggestions are, in my opinion, over the top.

As long as their clothing doesn't violate local ordinances, what do you care if they get hot brass down their shirt or between their toes?

You might as well make them buy your official range uniforms and sing the range song before they move to the bench.

Warp
February 6, 2014, 11:31 AM
If you owned a shooting range or was otherwise responsible for all policy and operations, which was open to the public, what garb/equipment requirements should be mandatory or prohibited? Thanks.

Eye and ear protection for anybody on the firing line or in the "hot area". If it's a hot/cold range this would only apply when the range is hot.

I don't think I would require anything else. Recommend, sure, but not require.

The only thing I can think of that I would be even remotely inclines to possibly consider as a requirement is closed toe shoes. But I know Appleseed IITs who routinely wear sandals and flip flops to shoots and it works perfectly fine for them. Brass on your feet isn't probably any worse than brass in your glasses or down your shirt or on your leg but I'm not going to go full retard and require everybody where pants, long sleeve collared shirts, gloves, and full brim hats.

If a person is not capable of keeping the muzzle in a safe direction, that will be dealt with.

zxcvbob
February 6, 2014, 11:44 AM
Eyes and ears. I also voted shoes, but that's way down the priority list and I almost didn't select it.

"Hearing and eye protection required, closed-toe shoes or boots strongly suggested" (the eyes and ears requirement is actually more for any spectators close to the line) Let them figure the rest out, I'm not their mom.

MyGreenGuns
February 6, 2014, 12:18 PM
If I was the one paying for the insurance, it would probably be restrictive to the point it was not fun. (Eyes, Ears, Coveralls, Boots Required. As a matter of fact, I can't trust you with that. You go sit over there and watch ME shoot your guns.)

If a range wanted me to come back, it wouldn't require anything but eyes and ears.

Most ranges I've been to make the 1st time shooter sign a waiver.
The waiver basically says: If you get hurt, its your fault. If you hurt someone else, its your fault.

It sounds like some of you have never worn flip flops while shooting.I've been shooting barefoot. :cool:

*-*-*-* HOW I VOTED *-*-*-*

What garb/gear should be made mandatory or prohibited at shooting ranges?
Eye protection required. YES
Hearing protection required. YES
Hat or cap required. (Hot brass.) NO
Collared shirt or jacket required. (Hot brass.) NO
Long pants required. (Hot brass.) NO
Closed-toe footwear required. (Hot brass.) NO
Sleeveless shirts/tops prohibited. NO
Offensive graphics or verbiage on clothing prohibited. NO
Gang attire prohibited. NO
Over-the-top camo/Rambo-wear prohibited. NO

Eyes and Ears should be required. You probably wont get insurance without it.

Hot brass has never really bugged me. I've gotten the occasional burn but I've never danced around wildly because of it. If you're going to require all that, you might as well rent out coveralls.

I wear t-shirts that some people may consider offensive. If I'm going to a place that is primarily for "kids", I'll flip it inside out. If its not, then you can deal with it.

My t-shirt that reads, "NO, I don't know what's wrong with your computer!" was once referred to as "Gang colors". (I was asked to leave.) So I don't agree with that one. If you have a problem with gang members hanging out, give free coffee to LEO in uniform.

As for banning Rambo, Why? He'll most likely have the head-to-toe coverage you're looking for. Does a MOLLE vest make him more dangerous? I don't get it.

ngnrd
February 6, 2014, 12:21 PM
What does my opinion matter? Like every other private business transaction, if I can't live with your rules, I won't patronize your establishment. While others may do so simply because of your rules.

Although, I can't see how anything beyond the 10 rules of safe gun handling would be necessary - unless there were other requirements imposed by your insurance provider.

From the NSSF website (http://www.nssf.org/safety/basics/):

1. Always Keep The Muzzle Pointed In A Safe Direction
2. Firearms Should Be Unloaded When Not Actually In Use
3. Don't Rely On Your Gun's "Safety"
4. Be Sure Of Your Target And What's Beyond It
5. Use Correct Ammunition
6. If Your Gun Fails To Fire When The Trigger Is Pulled, Handle With Care!
7. Always Wear Eye And Ear Protection When Shooting
8. Be Sure The Barrel Is Clear Of Obstructions Before Shooting
9. Don't Alter Or Modify Your Gun, And Have Guns Serviced Regularly
10. Learn The Mechanical And Handling Characteristics Of The Firearm You Are Using

And, I think rule seven may even be a little much... My eyes, my ears, my choice. It's the same way I feel about requiring helmets to operate a motorcycle. Is there no personal responsibility left in this country?



ADDED: Tell me - do you think a collared shirt, or any of your other proposed 'dress code' restrictions would have prevented this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxQXBueF4Bc

Kynoch
February 6, 2014, 01:18 PM
If I owned a range the only rules regarding clothing or safety gear that I would consider would be about offensive sayings or pictures on clothing. If a person wants to ruin their hearing or burn their cleavage, then that's their business, it doesn't harm anybody else. If they're going to piss other customers off with offensive t shirt graphics, that's my business. Even then it would probably be somewhat dependent on the normal customer base. Now, if burning their cleavage causes them to endanger other people then that would be handled like any other unsafe handling incident. Don't care what caused the unsafe action.
Your insurance carrier would likely have something to say about this.

Kynoch
February 6, 2014, 01:23 PM
eye and ear protection required, otherwise come as you are

I voted for:
o Eye protection required.
o Hearing protection required.

I did not vote for:
o Hat or cap required. I have problems fitting muffs over my cap.
o Collared shirt or jacket required. I would recommend but not require; physical discomfort can distract from mental attention to safety.
o Long pants required. I would recommend but not require.
o Closed-toe footwear required. I would recommend but not require.
o Sleeveless shirts/tops prohibited. I would recommend but not require; physical discomfort can distract from mental attention to safety.
o Offensive graphics or verbiage on clothing prohibited. What people find offensive is subjective.
o Gang attire prohibited. To pacify the crips and bloods, all blue and red clothes would have to be barred.
o Over-the-top camo/Rambo-wear prohibited.Some people's opinion on over-the-top is over the top.

In other words, I would require hearing and eye protection and recommend most others but there allow freedom of choice based on individual preferences. I would recommend that brass catching cleavage, bosom or butt, should be covered.

The local gun club expelled a bad actor by calling him out for his bad acts (temper tantrums like a golfer but on a shooting range).

Gang attire. We had a father and three people arrested on a "murder trip" because the mother sent the son to visitation with the dad, the son wearing a blue shirt and the dad, a Blood, saw red and threatened murder, blue being a Crip color. The father and three companions were busted on the way to the mom's home, with a loaded gun in the vehicle accessible to the passenger compartment. Then my green shirt could be seen as supporting IRA by someone.

Collars. I got a piece of .45 hot brass caught against my neck by a collared shirt; I ignored the burn till that stage of the match was complete. The scab took a week to fall off. An uncollared shirt would not have caught it.

Offensive clothing. Ideally we could adopt the "no graven images" doctrine and allow only abstract graphics and no words, but that would violate secular law on seperation of church and shooting range, or something.

Long pants. They once spotted seven copperhead vipers at the rifle range during a repavement of the firing line, and I encountered one returning from a target check. On the mountain at the old family property, copperheads and rattlers are a concern. I always wear long pants outdoors, with boot tops almost to my calves.

Camo. I get peeved at people who object to any military camo. When a family friend (Master Sergeant) was deployed to Afghanistan and had to replace his woodland camo with desert camo, he asked my son if he wanted his bdus (bought and tailored on his own coin) for utility/hunting clothing as long as he removed all unit, rank and name insignia. I wear one (stripped of all insignia patches) as range/mountain wear because it is durable, not too hot in hot weather, holds in body heat when it cools, has lotsa pockets.
"Graven images" are three dimensional statues... :(

Arkansas Paul
February 6, 2014, 01:27 PM
Your insurance carrier would likely have something to say about this.

I suspect there will be differences on a state to state basis regarding this. Obviously most ranges make you sign a waiver. I know I have to sign a new one and turn it in every year with my yearly dues.

Like I said, it will vary from state to state as to whether the waiver releases the business from any liability. If the business would still be held liable, then of course your insurance company would require it and no one could blame them. If your state would hold you liable even in the event of a waiver being signed, then it would be prudent to have the rule even if insurance didn't require it.

While I'm not a fan of rules, you have to look out for yourself. You can't risk your business.

Kynoch
February 6, 2014, 01:29 PM
Yes, I was talking about gangs in general. We don't have those kinds of problems in the backwoods. :)
I was just saying I'm thankful for that.



I've never seen a sex scene printed on a shirt, but if you owned a private business I certainly wouldn't blame you for prohibiting that.
I've certainly never witnessed firsthand offensive clothing at the range. I think instead of making blanket rules that make you look like a "dress code nazi" like buck460XVR mentioned, I would personally take it on a case by case basis. I really think the likelyhood of it being an issue is slim. Just deal with it if and when it becomes necessary.
So? A huge amount of CA is also rural, sans the problems of places like Los Angeles -- or Little Rock.

.455_Hunter
February 6, 2014, 01:39 PM
If its above 60 deg and I am not at work, I am wearing flip flops or Chacos, so that might cause a problem for me going to the range...

zdc1775
February 6, 2014, 02:30 PM
So when a yahoo has some powder flash back into his eyes or a ricochet or he has hearing problems and decides to sue you, what then?
Everyone would be required to sign a release of liability waiver before being allowed to use the range.

Eyes and ears are mandatory, whether shooting, using a weedeater, power washer or anything loud where something might spray back into your face
And I completely agree with that for me, but I will not force another full grown adult to use them.

buck460XVR
February 6, 2014, 02:40 PM
And I completely agree with that for me, but I will not force another full grown adult to use them.


I have two of my own private ranges. One on my son's property and the other on my brothers. Everyone that shoots at either one uses eye protection and ear protection or they don't shoot. I also give out ear plugs to those that just want to watch. Don't wanna use 'em go somewhere else and shoot. No skin off my back.

Midwest
February 6, 2014, 03:02 PM
Four requirements. Eye and ear protection,waiver and $$$.

jdietz
February 6, 2014, 04:16 PM
Having neuropathy in my feet I would be sad to have to miss shooting if closed toe shoes were required. I feel the best in sandals. Not flip flops. sandals with open toe and heal straps

Cee Zee
February 6, 2014, 05:23 PM
Dang I can't believe so many will vote to control what others do so easily. It's America people. Freedom is the key word. Hearing protection is a given because of lawsuit potentials and eye protection too. If I was having problems with gangs at a range I might vote to limit gang related clothing but a lot of the stuff people consider gang related totally isn't where I live like bandanas etc..

I have to say I've never been to a range with a dress code and if I went to one I wouldn't go back.

herkyguy
February 6, 2014, 05:54 PM
I recall an outdoor range in Florida where some knucklehead with a beer gut dressed up in his G.I. Joe outfit of army digital camo and boots to match then walked around telling people how to shoot better groups, including me. he actually picked up my shooting bags and tried to rearrange them while the line was cold and told me i'd shoot better.

rule 1: don't play dress up if you're a grown man.

rule 2: don't touch my stuff if you're not the range officer.

Warp
February 6, 2014, 06:17 PM
I recall an outdoor range in Florida where some knucklehead with a beer gut dressed up in his G.I. Joe outfit of army digital camo and boots to match then walked around telling people how to shoot better groups, including me. he actually picked up my shooting bags and tried to rearrange them while the line was cold and told me i'd shoot better.

rule 1: don't play dress up if you're a grown man.

rule 2: don't touch my stuff if you're not the range officer.

People can dress however they want. Who are you to tell people not to wear camo or not to wear boots? Seriously man, come on.

Separate the actions from the clothing.

justice06rr
February 6, 2014, 10:34 PM
Eyes, ears, and pants and shirt.

Ladies can wear bikinis at their own risk :D

Cee Zee
February 6, 2014, 10:48 PM
dressed up in his G.I. Joe outfit of army digital camo and boots to match

I would think it's a really bad idea to dress like that at a range. If you happen to be downrange and they decide to go hot again because they don't see you then you'll probably understand why it wasn't a good idea to walk out on the range with clothes on designed to hide you. I still wouldn't ban it though.

silicosys4
February 6, 2014, 11:02 PM
The key word here for me is "private" range.
Hey, if you want to shoot without ear/eye protection, wearing no shoes, and cuss words all over clothes of known gang affiliation, that's great, its America, and there is plenty of public land on which you can do that. You are also free to open your own range where you can shoot however you want.

I voted mandatory eye/ear protection, no open toed shoes, no gang affiliated clothing, and no cuss words on clothing.
Why?
I personally would prefer to keep my personal establishment family friendly, as safe as reasonably possible, and inviting to all newcomers who can keep their appearance and attitude respectful.

I'm not taking your brass. I'm not telling you what you can and can't shoot. I'm not limiting magazine capacity. I'm not doing one of a thousand things that actually limit your freedom and ability to enjoy yourself, but dang people are getting bent out of shape.

There used to be a time in this country when you wouldn't have to request people not wear cuss words on their clothes when in public, and it will never be a-ok to me.
If you live in an area where gangs are a problem, I'm pretty sure you'd be saavy to what constitutes gang attire.

I wouldn't mind missing out on your business if you can't be safe and respectful. I'm no nazi about it, as I would gladly and politely refund your money and point you to the door if you insisted on absolute freedom, and invite you to shoot on public land where you are absolutely free.
I'm not claiming my business would be successful.

I think a lot of people on here just want to do what they want to do as a shooter, and aren't really considering all the nuances of owning and running a successful business that has to appeal to many different types of people, and cover as many bases as reasonably possible with concerns to safety.

I mean really. How hard is it to pick close toed shoes that morning and grab eye/ear protection, and make sure you aren't wearing a shirt with cuss words on it? If that's too hard and asking too much of you, I wouldn't want your business.

grimjaw
February 6, 2014, 11:44 PM
I think a lot of people on here just want to do what they want to do as a shooter, and aren't really considering all the nuances of owning and running a successful business that has to appeal to many different types of people, and cover as many bases as reasonably possible with concerns to safety.

I don't know. I've been to privately-owned open-to-the-public ranges across the US (although in in CA, where apparently donning a certain color or clothing article alters your mental state), and I've never seen one with a dress code past eyes and ears. Most of those ranges were successful (and in looking at the ones I can find online, most are still in business). Does that mean those business owners are all wrong?

mrvco
February 6, 2014, 11:52 PM
Eyes, Ears and a Tweed Jacket.

silicosys4
February 6, 2014, 11:54 PM
Hey, its personal preference. I prefer not to look at profanity and gang clothes and that none of my patrons have to either in order to enjoy my private establishment, and that my establishment not be open to liability from people wearing flip flops and who decide they are too "...." for safety precautions that they personally feel are horribly unreasonable. (Just because you won't sue because of a blister between your toes doesn't mean someone else won't)
You prefer the option of shooting in flip flops and wearing whatever you personally feel appropriate. You have seen other ranges with the same attitude, cool beans.
Nobody's wrong, but in this case you would be invited to leave my personal range, and referred to another range if you insisted on wearing something that was against policy.

And no matter what, I will do always support someones rights to be on public land wearing a tutu and stiletto's if they want, shooting whatever the heck they want from the hip, hopefully full auto. It's America.

Personal preference.

Edit: you know, hot brass isn't the only reason flip flops could go wrong....they have terrible traction and have the tendency to ....flip...and flop.... things that could cause you to lose your footing easily, and hence, your muzzle control.

RBid
February 7, 2014, 12:17 AM
I'd require pants too.


This. I'm a big fan of pants. I wear them 4-5 days/week.

RPRNY
February 7, 2014, 12:55 AM
Dumbfounded! Can't you see that a jacket and tie requirement would keep any hot brass from getting close to, let alone under, one's skin! :rolleyes:

silicosys4
February 7, 2014, 01:17 AM
Wow, sounds like some people need to update their wardrobe if wearing a shirt with no profanity and shoes is such a big deal, or do some laundry, lol

Anyways, What could go wrong with....flip flops. Hot brass aside,
They flip, they flop, they have terrible traction, and they are barely attached to your feet.
Hey, they are extremely comfortable, but if I had a range, I wouldn't allow shoes that are barely attached to your feet. I've seen people fall out of their flip flops too many times to think its a safe enough thing to wear with a gun in your hand. I personally don't like flip flops and sandals because I've had occasions when I've had to actually do things while wearing them, like running or lifting things, and couldn't because they weren't actually attached to my feet and kept sliding around....or had them fall off my feet at inconvenient moments and trip me. My personal experience leads me to feel they are unsafe to wear while firing a gun because of how much easier it is to trip, and probably lose muzzle control.
But that's just me, I'm a klutz, and my range is imaginary.
but if it weren't, I think it would be a nice place to shoot.

Field Tester
February 7, 2014, 04:10 AM
Safety sometimes trumps freedom, else why mandate eyes and ears?

Your post sickens and saddens me. Mr. Benjamin Franklin would have something to say about it.

Field Tester
February 7, 2014, 04:29 AM
It is amazing how many 2nd Amendment supporters feverishly fight tooth and nail for our RKBA and so easily toss the 1st Amendment aside at the drop of a hat.

What constitutes gang colors? Who decides? I love wearing my local sports teams logos, if that happens to be gang colors are you going to toss me out, even if I'm obviously not a gang member? How about if I wear my hat slightly differently than you?
Are you going to ban CASS members? Because they fit the very definition of a gang.

Offensive images? I'm offended quite often by the Left this day in age. Who constitutes what is offensive? To many an image of a firearm is offensive. What if you are only a bolt action hunter, can I wear my AR T-Shirt to your range? People need to stop being so afraid of offending someone else. I try daily to be polite and respectful, but I know there is no way to please everyone, and better yet I don't want to try.

As long as the person is following the law, not a danger to others and my property, I say have at it, enjoy your range session and come back soon! Don't forget to tell your friends that we won't Tread On You.

We give up our rights too easily folks. What are we leaving our children? Seems like a stretch to connect something like this to our Civil Rights, but it's not. It's all about the frame of mind.

silicosys4
February 7, 2014, 05:23 AM
Yup,
Look at these guys expressing themselves.
They must all have similar tastes in blue bandannas.
But hey, i guess since its America, its my duty to let them into my place of business, no questions asked. No profiling. Heaven forbid.
Just so long as they wear muffs, glasses, and close toed shoes.

It's amazing how many people fight tooth and nail for gun rights, but have no problem throwing property/business owners under the bus for exercising theirs

:rolleyes:

Reloadron
February 7, 2014, 05:30 AM
Went to my local indoor range yesterday and here are the range safety rules:


Safety Regulations:

1. Hearing & eye protection must be worn at all times while on the range.

2. Keep muzzle pointed down range at all times.

3. When taking out or putting away firearms, keep muzzle pointed in safe direction.

4. Keep you finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.

5. Handle all firearms like they are loaded at all times. (Every gun is “Always” loaded.)

6. Use only the correct ammunition for your gun.

7. Be courteous and mindful of your fellow shooters’ safety.

This is a range open to the general public offering yearly membership or hourly rates. I would venture a guess here that some of these clearly posted rules are defined by the insurance company. The above are only the basic range safety regulations. Other range regulations include but are not limited to:

Range Regulations:

1. We reserve the right to deny use of the range to anyone appearing to be impaired by Drugs, Alcohol or otherwise.

2. Anyone under the age of 21 must be accompanied by someone 21 or older.

3. No One is permitted down range at any time for any reason.

4.No smoking, food, drink or chewing gum on range.

5. No more than 2 shooters are permitted in a stall at one time.

6. You must shoot only at your own target, No cross stall shooting
permitted.

7. No shooting at carriers, side walls or items on range floor.

8. Small targets must be on cardboard target head level or below.

9. Shooter may only fire one gun at a time.

10. Do not throw live or defective ammo down range. Please turn it in at the counter for disposal.

11.PLEASE PLACE ALL TRASH IN TRASH CANS PROVIDED.

Pistol, Rifle and Shotgun Regulations:
1.We reserve the right to inspect all cases & ammo.

2.All rifle ammo will be inspected. (Soft point or lead round nose only. No steel core, armor piercing or full metal jackets.)

3. All rifle targets must be shot at 25 yards. (Full length of range.)

4.All rifles and full stock shotguns must be shot from shoulder or bench rested.

5. High power rifles may be shot with soft point or hollow point ammo and 1 round in magazine at a time. Target must be back the full 75 feet.

6. No full auto high power rifle.

7. No steel shot or solid copper slugs.

8. No rapid fire with pistol grip shotguns.

9. Pistol grip shotguns – buck shot or personal defense rounds only!

10. No picking up brass except for your own.

There are several ranges in my area so if you don't like the rules or regulations at one just choose another. It's their sandbox so they get to make the rules. It really doesn't get any simpler.

Ron

silicosys4
February 7, 2014, 05:39 AM
Dang I can't believe so many will vote to control what others do so easily. It's America people. Freedom is the key word.

I don't understand this statement. Are we discussing people being kidnapped and forced to shoot at private ranges, with shirts they don't want to wear and pesky earmuffs? We aren't talking about forming roaming dress code squads to enforce a public sharia-style dress code.

Even if a private range has the most ridiculous dress code that requires sequins and leotards.......nobody is forcing you to go and submit yourself to their "control". And, once there, you are free to leave any time. So I think that's a little dramatic.

As far as I know, you still have every right not to patronize an establishment you do not wish to, and you are free to stay on public land and shoot however you wish, and as a business owner I am free to refuse your business
Freedom is indeed the key word.

Salmoneye
February 7, 2014, 06:24 AM
Eyes, Ears and a Tweed Jacket.

Smoking jacket, and a cravat...

Field Tester
February 7, 2014, 06:43 AM
Yup,
Look at these guys expressing themselves.
They must all have similar tastes in blue bandannas.
But hey, i guess since its America, its my duty to let them into my place of business, no questions asked. No profiling. Heaven forbid.
Just so long as they wear muffs, glasses, and close toed shoes.

It's amazing how many people fight tooth and nail for gun rights, but have no problem throwing property/business owners under the bus for exercising theirs

:rolleyes:
Because gangs are such a massive problem at gun ranges, that we need to make a big enough issue to have me buy a new hat that has no logos whatsoever.

Is the picture you provided a group of men from your local range? Were they causing issues?

Field Tester
February 7, 2014, 06:44 AM
Smoking jacket, and a cravat...
Dinner jacket required for all lane rentals.

silicosys4
February 7, 2014, 06:56 AM
Because gangs are such a massive problem at gun ranges, that we need to make a big enough issue to have me buy a new hat that has no logos whatsoever.

Is the picture you provided a group of men from your local range? Were they causing issues?

No, this is a picture for everybody who insists that someone who thinks that a group of young men that comes in dressed like this has anything but the best intentions in mind is hating freedom.
I believe in profiling. People usually are who they present themselves as. If you don't want to be profiled as a gangster you shouldn't dress like one, get tatted up like one, and roam around in a pack acting aggressive and flashing signs.

Some assumptions you can pretty safely make. If I'm wrong, guess I would have lost a few customers....a chance I'd be willing to take.

And yes, gang members have been a problem at ranges before.

Hey, why don't you try it? Call it a social experiment. Go get you some fake prison tattoos, get five or six of your friends to all dress in the same color clothing, and go to a range. Ask to rent some "heat" or "gats" or "strats" or a "nine" . Flash some sign language at each other.
Then fire the gun sideways at the target. Lots of "yea yea's" and "get some!"
I'm interested in hearing exactly how that goes.

Cee Zee
February 7, 2014, 06:58 AM
As far as I know, you still have every right not to patronize an establishment you do not wish to

Gee I would swear that's exactly what I said I would do. There are all sorts of people willing to do all sorts of things with a private business. Nobody's taking their rights. Certainly not me. But requiring specific footwear because you might "trip"? Last time I was at a range (every time actually) there were these things called benches where people sit down and shoot. I don't think I've ever seen anyone trip and fall while sitting down.

Why limit this list of rules to the ones mentioned? Why not keep people from wearing dark glasses because no one will be able to tell where they're looking and whether they look like they might shoot someone for fun. And no jeans. Good grief there has to be some civility.

It's amazing how defending people's rights turns into me being the one taking rights away. Did I say I wanted to pass some law prohibiting ranges that insist on a jacket and tie? Speaking of jackets there was someone that said they should be required even in the summer. I guess heat stroke isn't a concern for some. You wear a jacket in the summer sun where I live and they better have a place to land the helicopters to come after the people falling over from the heat.

I just thought we were a freedom loving bunch. It seems that isn't true. We complain when others try to take our freedoms. If a place tells us not to carry a gun people don't like that one bit. But it seems if they asked you to wear specific clothes we have no problem at all with that. There are actually laws against wearing profane clothing and I have taken a stand against such things in the past. I was about to pull my daughter off the jr. high basketball team because an assistant coach (a high school guy who's dad was head coach) wore a profane shirt. That's all it took to put a stop to that. No rules were needed. Just friendly advice from the league officials. If it's truly a private range those things can be dealt with easily without requiring arbitrary rules. Just exactly what constitutes profanity btw? The Supreme Court couldn't answer that question and I doubt many would agree on the issue here. The SC opinion in that case said you know it when you see it. Defining it is a whole other matter. Who gets to decide? I think those awful Che' shirts are profane. Should they be banned too?

No one is demanding that private ranges do anything they don't want to do. That's what others seem to be doing to a point. At the very least they're suggesting arbitrary rules. But if someone says my shoes aren't up to code I think "control freak" right off the bat. And I don't support such things. I've work flip flops since I was 6. I haven't fell once because of it. I wear them around the house all the time. Going outside in a fairly rugged environment makes it just stupid to wear such shoes. But I know ranges that are as smooth as it gets. You walk up to the bench and you shoot. Again it's hard to trip when you're sitting down.

silicosys4
February 7, 2014, 07:11 AM
Hey, ceezee, if that works for you, cool beans. The question was asked, my answer given, you don't like my terms, you'd be invited off my range, and I'm sure you'd have no problem finding a place to shoot more suitable for you without the annoyance of not being able to wear the EXACT thing you want. I'd have peace of mind and a range free of shoes that stay on your feet via a plastic band wedged between your toes.

Telling someone they are against freedom because you can't come onto their property or into their business and do whatever your heart desires is a little juvenile, IMO.

Why, out of curiosity, do you feel entitled to do whatever it is that YOU want to do, regardless of who's property you are on, when your presence there is completely voluntary?
And why do you feel that I cannot tell you what you can and cannot do on MY property while you are there of your own accord, then facilitate your immediate exit if you don't?

Midwest
February 7, 2014, 07:18 AM
Hey, why don't you try it? Call it a social experiment. Go get you some fake prison tattoos, get five or six of your friends to all dress in the same color clothing, and go to a range. Ask to rent some "heat" or "gats" or "strats" or a "nine" . Flash some sign language at each other.
Then fire the gun sideways at the target. Lots of "yea yea's" and "get some!"
I'm interested in hearing exactly how that goes.
Add ski masks to the list

silicosys4
February 7, 2014, 07:32 AM
Heck yea, no law against that, anybody that doesn't let you shoot sideways while wearing a ski mask on their private range hates freedom.

bikerdoc
February 7, 2014, 07:32 AM
Membership by invitation only solves a lot of problems.

benEzra
February 7, 2014, 07:45 AM
The only two safety rules on that list are ear and eye protection. If I ran a range, ear protection would probably be mandatory unless shooting suppressed with no other shooters around, and eye protection would be strongly recommended (or mandatory if insurance required it).

The rest of the rules on that list are fashion policing, no.

Hat or cap required - no, negligible safety benefit and some safety drawbacks (it gets 100 degrees and 95% humidity here in the summer).

Collared shirt or jacket required - no way. The only nly time I've ever seen someone in real life do the "hot brass down the shirt" dance, it was because the collar of a guy's polo shirt caught a 9mm case and funneled it down his back. A "no collared shirts allowed" rule would be equally justifiable by that rationale, but equally irrational IMO.

Long pants required - no way. How are bare legs going to catch and hold hot brass? Around here, heatstroke in the summer is far more of an issue than hot brass grazing your leg on the way to the deck.

Closed-toe footwear required - no. Sandals are cooler in the summer and no less safe (sneakers can catch and hold hot brass around the ankle - is someone going to require calf socks too?

Sleeveless shirts/tops prohibited - this is just 1950s fashion prejudice with no relationship to safety at all. No.

Offensive graphics or verbiage on clothing prohibited - no, this is not a safety issue whatsoever. However, I might give you a talking to if you wore a shirt disparaging other potential patrons for their religion/ethnicity/whatever. I've never seen an X-rated shirt in my life (never mind at a range), so I don't think those are an issue, but if you wore one I'd give you a talking to as well.

Gang attire prohibited - no, because "gang attire" rules all too often morph into "clothes that urban twentysomethings from different subcultures than me wear." If a range has gang members congregating, their problem isn't what the gang members are wearing, and wouldn't be fixed by mandating they change their shirts.

Over-the-top camo/Rambo-wear prohibited - no, because again, how do you define "over the top camo/Rambo-wear", and why is it in any way a safety issue? There are guys at my local range who often shoot USPSA matches in MOLLE backpacks and BDUs, and most of them are active duty USMC. Would you ban them from shooting unless they changed into civilian clothes, or would you require presentation of military ID before allowing camo, or what? That would be ridiculous fashion policing.

I swear, some of these hypothetical range rules would kick Jessie Duff in full range gear off your range for dressing "unsafely", and that is ludicrous.

http://www.taurususa.com/images/jessie_duff.jpg

I do have to comment on this rule:

5. High power rifles may be shot with soft point or hollow point ammo and 1 round in magazine at a time. Target must be back the full 75 feet.

I would not patronize a range with a "1 round in the magazine" rule.

silicosys4
February 7, 2014, 07:50 AM
Hey, like I said, my range is imaginary, i like to shoot alone, and I doubt the lovely miss Duff would be wearing range gear consisting of shirts with curse words and flip flops. If she was, heck yea she would be off my range unless the shirt came off and she found a real pair of shoes....I'm sure I could find a pair.....for her, lol.
Its not necessarily only about "safety". Its mostly about safety, but The OP asked what my ideal range rules would be. My range rules would address issues other than safety, including fostering an atmosphere that I personally would prefer and that I would think the majority of others would too. If you wouldn't be ok with wearing it in front of your mother, i wouldn't want it on my range. Heck, if its my fantasy range, my mother is probably there shooting most of the time so keep it clean!
On my range it would not be all about YOU and what YOU want. It's MY fantasy, lol
If you disagree, then your fantasy range would look different than mine, or our mothers aren't much alike.
Perhaps a better approach would be to prohibit gang activity instead of attire. Or I guess you could just keep telling yourself "that's the fashion these days", hope nothing comes of it, and watch your clientele slowly change.
It's not about hating freedom, elitism, or putting anyone's neck under the boot...It's a hypothetical.


On another note, I'm fairly sure Miss Duff is in some sort of gang though lol....she looks to be representing something

Ryanxia
February 7, 2014, 08:44 AM
Don't be naked, that is all. If someone doesn't want to wear eyes or ears that's their choice, this is still America. :D

I am a member of a private range with virtually no rules aside from obviously the safety rules (don't point a gun at someone, no shooting when someone's down range, etc).
Full auto, tannerite, we love it all.

Reloadron
February 7, 2014, 08:51 AM
This forum has rules. The use of foul or abusive language is a rule. When I first found this place in one of my comments I spelled out the word BS. My post was edited and I got a friendly warning from a moderator. The forum administrators and the forum owner have every right to set the rules. While I didn't see the word as a big deal or even really foul or abusive language apparently they did and rightly so. They want to maintain an image for their forum and as a guest here I have a responsibility to maintain that image or the option of going elsewhere. I apologized and got the message.

Ranges open to the public can have their own rules and regulations. As I said earlier it is their sandbox so they make the rules. The rules may be driven by insurance or by the environment the owners want to project and the clientele they want to attract. The clientele is what pays the bills. They have every right to enforce a dress code and I have every right to take my business elsewhere. Again, it doesn't get any simpler.

Ron

Midwest
February 7, 2014, 09:03 AM
"Great Gats for Gangs in da Hood" would be an interesting name for the range.

spottedpony
February 7, 2014, 09:42 AM
So now its only ranges that should be rule free? Society has rules, your employer has rules (and probably a dress code as well), Keeping your (legal) right to drive has rules, (albiet most people seem to ignore anyway). Rules are meant for the good of the majority, not the individual, So why is it there should be NO rules in my place of business, or my home, yet most here would probably impose some sort of rules were I to visit they're place of business or residence?

That being said, I would support manditory eye/hearing protection with all others such as gang colors, offensive clothing/actions, footware and so on being handled on a case by case basis. In other words if it offends other customers or presents other problems you would be asked to change/fix it, or leave. My one other "rule" would be alcohol/drug related. Nothing related to either allowed on the property, and if any level of intoxication is suspected, out you go.

As for waivers of liability, they arn't worth the paper they're written on. My "waivers" would be large easy to read signs posted visibly in promanant visible places that my business was not liable for any customer actions. Don't like it? go somewhere else.

another pake
February 7, 2014, 10:06 AM
Respectfully... This thread doesn't seem to me to be very useful as a poll.

I didn't vote.
I would prefer a poll which included an option for,
No Dress Code Requirements.

Not because I would choose that one necessarily, but because I would want to see what the range of opinions are. If your mind is already made up, why bother with a poll? You might also include an option for,
Other, and find out what people are thinking.

Once again, no disrespect intended to anyone who has responded, but I can easily envision an Anti or even an undecided citizen reading this thread and thinking to themselves,

"See, these guys can't even agree among themselves what constitutes safe gun behavior or why. And that's at a range. Why would we want them all walking around among us?"

If somebody had a mindset like that, more gun control doesn't seem unreasonable.

Tirod
February 7, 2014, 10:21 AM
Petty restricted list of rules, there. Completely ignores advances in technology, and the range would have long term benefits in adopting and promoting an advanced attitude.

1) Suppressors mandatory. They are in Europe.
2) Brass catchers. Not hot brass flying around, none to clean up.

Let's stop looking at this as a retro exercise in behavior control, and step up to the technology that already exists.

How about plexiglass screens with a hole to poke the firearm thru, which would deflect any hot brass and eliminate the need for safety glasses?

Lots of ways around the issue. A range is a lot like the bowling alley. Any reason we can't sell beer at a range, too? Yes, I do get the safety aspects of that, nonetheless, it's done all the time, and definitely in hunting season. People do it on their private range, and if you CCW, plenty of states allow carry and drinking in public places.

That is the attitude of the safety lobby, that no possible tolerance be allowed because some might create a situation. Well, isn't that what the anti gunners are doing? If it only saves one life, it's worth doing?

Follow all the restrictions on what to do and wear at a range, maybe we should just not allow shooting the gun at all. That solves every problem brought up in this discussion. No loud noises, no eyewear, no hot brass, no worries about where the gun is pointed, because, there are no guns at all.

Just show up in your camo swimsuit and flip flops with offensive pictograms and look cool.

There IS a down side to imposing too many restrictions on our freedom. Those suggesting all the above aren't really that far from siding with the anti gunners. It's really about not being able to let other people make their own choices. Basic power grabbing ploy, the masses are too stupid to make the right decisions.

I certainly don't plan on shooting in a Camo speedo and flipflops the next time I go - but I support your right to do so, and served protecting it. Even if I don't see much sense in it. I might decide, though, to not shave for a few weeks, wear a shemagh, black pajamas, and combat boots, and shout "Allahu Akbar" every time I squeeze the trigger.

That meets the dress code, right? Can't possibly be offensive.

Time for some attitude checks. :rolleyes:

anothernewb
February 7, 2014, 10:23 AM
An interesting poll. Rules, by their very definition, are restrictions on freedom. But good rules in and of themselves are designed to protect the individual. Taken into context - they can be quite the conundrum.

Hearing and eye and body protection are all well and good things - hot brass and noise are issues. but where does protection stop and infringement begin? Where do rules circumvent learning processes?

I have a singular advantage (well perhaps advantage is s strong word) of having access to a particular outdoor range that is very much run at the "use at your own risk and under you own recognizance" method. The unwritten rule there is common sense, pay attention, and respect other shooters. It's not often that busy, so there is some perspective leeway here that must be taken into consideration. many times I've been the only one there for an entire afternoon.

However, I've seen people out there with all kinds. from full body protection while shooting a 10/22, to tank top and hot pants and flip-flops (thankfully it was someone who was actually enjoyable to look at in said outfit - but that's another story) I can say, most issues are self regulating. blasting away a .357 magnum without hearing protection, or standing near someone letting fly with a .30 or larger hunting rifle usually sends them running for cover and protection quickly. Likewise getting hit with hot brass. Yes there is the obvious issue of someone doing the brass in my pants dance with a loaded weapon - although I have yet to see anyone hang onto said weapon yet.

That being said, I do agree that some rules should be enforced just to protect everyone involved. However, I am firmly in the camp that says post the sign, if they fail to pay attention, or willfully ignore it. then they are stuck with the consequences. Sadly - in the liticious society we find ourselves living in, personal responsibility seems to be a public consequence.

buck460XVR
February 7, 2014, 10:43 AM
Ranges open to the public can have their own rules and regulations.


Exactly...and just cause one is more restrictive than the other only means they are targeting a different section of the market. In reality, the only items on the OPS list that actually relate to safety are eye and ear protection. The idea that logger boots are safer at a gun range than something with open toes, is subjective, just like the idea of what you're wearin' on your head or legs makes you a better person. Some restaurants require you to wear a tie and long pants....that's their subjective rules. The rule for shoes and shirt are not.


Your range, your privilege to restrict folks to what they wear. Priorities will dictate this in many cases. While we would all prefer our patrons to dress just like us, if we need to get the "Black-Ops wannabes" and the skimpily clad females wearin' flip flops there to pay the bills, guess what our dress code will be?

brboyer
February 7, 2014, 10:46 AM
well, you edited post 18 after i responded, but my answer is the same. if you want to discourage and make certain elements unwelcome, then do it through your interaction with them. not by targeting stereotypes and making a list of rules.

say you reserve the right to restrict access. in the range agreement say you must submit to NICS check (you don't have to do it, just let them know that if they can't pass a background check, they can't shoot)
Even if you could do it, that would be a violation of Federal Law!

Midwest
February 7, 2014, 12:05 PM
say you reserve the right to restrict access. in the range agreement say you must submit to NICS check (you don't have to do it, just let them know that if they can't pass a background check, they can't shoot)

Even if you could do it, that would be a violation of Federal Law!

If the range is owned and run by an FFL. The FFL could theoretically restrict range membership only to customers who buy a firearm.

taliv
February 7, 2014, 12:11 PM
yeah, so substitute any of 1000 background check services, like employers or landlords use.

brboyer
February 7, 2014, 12:26 PM
If the range is owned and run by an FFL. The FFL could theoretically restrict range membership only to customers who buy a firearm.
Yep and reduce you potential customer list by 90%!

brboyer
February 7, 2014, 12:28 PM
yeah, so substitute any of 1000 background check services, like employers or landlords use.
Much better than advocating violating Federal law. :cool:

Robert
February 7, 2014, 12:30 PM
We can go 5 pages on what to wear to the range, but anytime someone asks how to best fight antigun laws in a given state the best we come up with is move. Sad really.

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