pistol grip question?


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NewGuy1911
February 6, 2014, 12:24 PM
Have large to very large hands and I find the thumbs forward somewhat unconfortable and my thumb rubs against the slide of the 1911. Been gripping the CZ 75 Compact and not riding the safety feel natural, much prefered.

Just read somewhere that the pistol should recoil strait up, not left or right. I tend to shoot the 1911 45 acp Kimber Pro Carry HD low and left with factory 230 gr fmj. The recoil goes up and left maybe 1:30 to 2:00 o'clock.

Have not been to the range in about two years and trying to change that for the New Year.

Many Thanks

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hardluk1
February 6, 2014, 01:36 PM
This maybe of no help at all but its what I do and I had to grab a few handgun types to be sure.

I am use to shooting small heavier recoiling pistols like a airweight with +P loads or my cm9 with +P loads and heavy hitting revolvers. Pull that point your thumbs trick with a revolver and you may loose some skin at the very least from a thumb or two. My strong hand thumb is ether curled in to the frame or grip or over my weak hand and tight to the frame depending on handgun and one or two handed grip and the weak side thumb is land on my idex finger and in to the frame. Not pointing down range or on a safety or where ever except for a old colt huntsman and that do as much to the grip design as anything.

Larger or heavier mild recoiling hanguns allow for a less controled grip that can let you get away with more and still shot well.

Some time you just do what works for you. Watch a some shooter using one hand only with a weak side eye dominance and see that they may hold a 15* to 30* tilt to shoot and do it very well.

I have been that way for 35 years and just never noticed the tilt till a few years ago. A buddy as why I did that. Easier to see the sights and takes some tension out of your arm when shooting one handed. Just gota find what works for you sometimes depending on the handgun.

Hurryin' Hoosier
February 6, 2014, 02:05 PM
So, you're saying that you hold the pistol tilted-over to one side - kind of a semi-"gangsta" style? Do you tilt it to the left or to the right (assuming that you're right-handed)?

David E
February 6, 2014, 02:36 PM
Whoever told you it should recoil straight up is wrong. The gun will twist up and left (usually) due to the direction of the rifling. You really can't stop that and it really doesn't matter. What does matter is having a technique that brings the gun back to the same place quickly, shot after shot after shot.

If you're hitting low left, that's the classic sign you're flinching.

Thumbs forward shouldn't be touching the gun anywhere.

ATLDave
February 6, 2014, 03:05 PM
I'm with David E. The precise route of the recoil is unimportant. I have heard/read some very good shooters even describe the front sight describing a small loop or even a figure 8 as they track it through recoil. What matters is whether the front sight returns to the center of the notch and does so quickly and without much/any conscious effort.

David E
February 6, 2014, 03:42 PM
I don't track my front sight during recoil. I don't care where it's going, since there's nothing up there I want to shoot.

I just want to see the front sight "lift" at the shot and I want it to come back exactly where is was microseconds before, quickly and consistently.

mljdeckard
February 6, 2014, 04:18 PM
Also realize that the 1911 is somewhat modifiable for the trigger length, grip thickness, backstrap bump, grip thickness, and the style of the thumb safety.

ATLDave
February 6, 2014, 04:22 PM
I don't track my front sight during recoil. I don't care where it's going, since there's nothing up there I want to shoot.

I just want to see the front sight "lift" at the shot and I want it to come back exactly where is was microseconds before, quickly and consistently.

Yeah, I wasn't really pitching the importance of tracking the sight, just that those who can/do have reported it moving in various ways pretty different from straight-up-and-straight-down.

JTQ
February 6, 2014, 04:25 PM
Here is Doug Koenig showing his 1911 grip this National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF) video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDzC6djUQxM

RetiredUSNChief
February 6, 2014, 05:05 PM
Whoever told you it should recoil straight up is wrong. The gun will twist up and left (usually) due to the direction of the rifling. You really can't stop that and it really doesn't matter. What does matter is having a technique that brings the gun back to the same place quickly, shot after shot after shot.

If you're hitting low left, that's the classic sign you're flinching.

Thumbs forward shouldn't be touching the gun anywhere.

A great explanation. Most people, being right handed, don't notice this too much. However, switch hands from right to left and you'll immediately notice a difference.

Right handed, the pistol grip will torque into the palm of the right hand. Left handed, the pistol grip torques away from the palm and into the fingers wrapped around the grip.

Try it.

NewGuy1911
February 6, 2014, 05:49 PM
David E, "If you're hitting low left, that's the classic sign you're flinching.
I try very hard not to flinch, use to have strong hands and can grip, tried both gental and tight grips. May stay with the death grip until some shows me a way.better.

Thumbs forward shouldn't be touching the gun anywhere." Probably correct, large hands and a tactical safety, thumb rubs slide.

I did buy a lowered thumb safety, not installed yet. Also have a wide thumb safety that I would like shaped, thought these would help.

Was shooting left about 7 to 8:00 o'clock from a rest trying to let the trigger surprise me. Believe the Kimber Pro Carry HD has a nice trigger.

Thanks Guys

David E
February 6, 2014, 09:04 PM
On a 1911, thumb rides on top of the safety. It may touch the slide slightly, but it shouldn't cause problems for you or the gun. Left thumb shouldn't touch a thing.

Grip the gun with fingers parallel to each other, inside knuckles of left hand overlay on the outer knuckles of the gun hand. Consider that junction the hinge point.

Exert a clamshell grip on the gun. Imagine you're a teenage girl doing breast enhancement exercises ("I must! I must! I must increase my bust!")

The support hand should account for 70% of the total grip strength. This allows the support hand to deal with the kick whilst your gun hand is free to simply press the trigger straight back.

Arms out, just shy of being locked. You're "driving" the gun with the static tension of doing a wall push up. (Yes, go do a few. Lock elbows on the last one, break them and hold ten seconds. Note what muscles you're using to hold your body there. THOSE are the muscles you'll use to drive the gun)

Weight on balls of feet, but heels still touching.

Try that next time out.

orionengnr
February 6, 2014, 10:56 PM
...but heels still touching.
The ground...not each other.

NewGuy1911
February 6, 2014, 11:56 PM
Can I lock my arms, not afraid of the recoil. Probably need to work on some indurance

BCRider
February 7, 2014, 12:00 AM
I find that with two of my 1911's that the oversize thumb safties dig in hard on my right hand thumb. I'm a right hand shooter. The other gun has a small trim and well rounded thumb safety that is very much like the small military style. I find that one is easy to use but fits neatly into the soft tissue of my right hand thumb with no issue with the normal two hand hold. At this point I've modified one of the over size safeties to copy the military style and the other is on the "To Do" list.

Even with bigger hands than most I found I didn't like being forced to lay my thumb ON the safety as though it was some sort of shelf. It just didn't feel right and it tended to lift the pressure of my strong hand off the rear strap safety and lose the supportive contact that should be present around the upper portion of the back strap.

Even with the bigger hands thing going on keep in mind that the thumbs don't really press in. They are simply laid over each other and pointed forward to park them somewhere until needed for something.

Perhaps try consciously relaxing them or even actually pointing them slightly outwards for a short while until it feels more natural to not have any thumb pressure contact?

Or get a CZ97 with the inner slide rails and high frame sides?

David E
February 7, 2014, 12:46 AM
Can I lock my arms, not afraid of the recoil. Probably need to work on some indurance
When you lock elbows, the kick transmit more thru the bone, which isn't what you want. Despite what some claim, you cannot eliminate recoil. We are not looking to eliminate it, just to manage it quickly, efficiently and consistently. That's what this stance allows.

Feet slightly more than shoulder width apart, gun side foot trailing by 6"-8" or so. Weight forward. Heels in contact with ground. Knees shy of locked, not crouched.

BigBore44
February 7, 2014, 03:52 AM
I would bet a dollar to doughnuts your squeezing the trigger incorrectly. It's exaggerated when you anticipate the shot (flinch). You need to do some dry fire exercises and focus on pulling the trigger straight back. No matter which part of your index finger you use, focus on straight back consistently every time.

You can also check yourself during the dry fire exercise. Put slight pressure on the trigger. Then squeeze the last bit, quickly just like someone who is flinching. Watch your barrel when you do this. It WILL go left, and probably down also.

David E
February 7, 2014, 01:39 PM
If you have large hands, you might be putting way too much finger on the trigger.

Place the middle of the trigger in the middle of the finger pad , 1/2 way between the end of your fingernail and first joint of the finger finger.

Never go past the first finger joint.

NewGuy1911
February 7, 2014, 11:15 PM
Thanks guys. I will print this up and take it to the Range. Have not been to the Range for about two years. Hard on the ego when you're not a good shot (and you have an expensive pistol). I do and did dry fire a bit, front sight bearly moves. I also work the slide. Been dry firing the CZ 75 Compact double action, need to improve that (the trigger).

Jim K
February 7, 2014, 11:51 PM
"Right handed, the pistol grip will torque into the palm of the right hand. Left handed, the pistol grip torques away from the palm and into the fingers wrapped around the grip."

Depending on the direction of the rifling twist.

Jim

Field Tester
February 8, 2014, 04:39 AM
Thanks guys. I will print this up and take it to the Range. Have not been to the Range for about two years. Hard on the ego when you're not a good shot (and you have an expensive pistol). I do and did dry fire a bit, front sight bearly moves. I also work the slide. Been dry firing the CZ 75 Compact double action, need to improve that (the trigger).
Where are you located?
Did you have access to a .22LR pistol to work on that trigger control and flinch?

NewGuy1911
February 8, 2014, 11:32 AM
Yes. Marvel II bought used. The good and bad; the conversion unit has problems. Could be because I mounted it on a Kimber Carry Pro HD (main spring?). Got a lot of practice clearing jams! My thumb does rub against the slide also, just a bit. I should stick with the conversion, however it does not hold my attension.

Would like to have the 22 lr conversion for the CZ 75, just way to much $$$. CZ should sell these as a complete pistol.

I'm planning on taking shooting instruction, saveing ammo for that.

Many,Many Thanks

Vern Humphrey
February 8, 2014, 11:45 AM
Just read somewhere that the pistol should recoil strait up, not left or right. I tend to shoot the 1911 45 acp Kimber Pro Carry HD low and left with factory 230 gr fmj. The recoil goes up and left maybe 1:30 to 2:00 o'clock.
One Thirty to Two O'clock is up and right. That's what you should expect, regardless of hold.

The advantage of thumbs forward is that it puts the base of the left hand more firmly against the grip panel, and aids a quicker recovery. The disadvantage is as you said -- you can drag on the slide or accidentally activate the slide lock.

Your grip does not affect point of impact -- that's a matter, as others have said, of improperly manipulating the trigger.

NewGuy1911
February 8, 2014, 01:56 PM
"Your grip does not affect point of impact -- that's a matter, as others have said, of improperly manipulating the trigger."

Hard to understand, but I got it.

Tomac
February 9, 2014, 04:25 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/Tomac/targetA.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Tomac/media/targetA.jpg.html)

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