Goex vs Swiss targets with Lyman 535 from MEHavey


February 8, 2014, 06:35 PM
Went out to the range today and shot some loads I had worked up for the 45-70. I used the 405 gr bullets with 70 gr of Goex 2F and 65 gr of Swiss 2F again. Groups were getting a bit better with the best being about 3 inches using Swiss 2f and Fed 215 primers. I also tried each combo with Win LR. I had no misfires or FTF like I did last time using CCI LR. Then, I tried two five shot groups with the Lyman Postell bullets MEHavey sent me. Mike, you were right on the money. Using 70 gr of Goex 2F and 65 Gr of Swiss 2F, two .030 veggie wads, 0.200 compression with a Winchester Large Pistol primer this is what it looked like. Guess I'll stick with the Swiss and try to get better.

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February 9, 2014, 01:21 AM
Great shooting!!! Excellent group on that second target.

How far are you going to take her out? 100 yards, 200 yards, farther? Your rifle lends itself to a lot of application, hunting, target shooting, competitive shooting, can't beat that. :)

February 9, 2014, 01:30 AM
Before you commit to Swiss why not try Olde Eynsford? It's much cheaper than Swiss, but gives very similar results.

February 9, 2014, 11:04 AM
My plan is to get the 535 gr mold and cast some of these bullets. Then I want to go back out to the range and shoot from 125 to 200 in 25 yd increments. I can mark the settings on my soule sight or write them down. That way I'll have a good idea of the drop as I go along. 200 is about the max distance I have on my hunting lease and all of the distances are marked by flagging tape. I have a feeling the total drop from 100 to 200 could be as much as 6 feet with this big ol bullet. As for powder, I'm down to less than half a pound of Swiss 2F. I do have some Swiss 3F and Goex 3F I'll probably try for grins. It might work. My 50 flinter loves it. Everything else , C&B revolvers, perc rifles, smoothbores, all like Swiss 2F. Its time for a re-order and I'll probably be doing that from Powder Inc. I can mix and match with no problem. At first I was gonna try 3 lbs of Swiss 2F, 3 lbs of Swiss 1.5, 3 lbs of OE and a pound of Goex 4F for my flinters pan. That would make a 10 lb order. with better prices than a 5 lb order. I'd like to find what works and stick with it. I think the Swiss 2F works. I haven't even tried a 1.5 granulation ever before. Do you guys really think there would be a lot of difference in 2F and 1.5F? In OE and Swiss? By the way, I had three rounds left loaded with Swiss 2F and the 535 bullet. As I started to leave the range I fired three off hand shots at the 100 yd bad guy silhouette. This time I aimed for the head as opposed to center mass like the other day. All three went into the forehead. This rifle does like this bullet! I also have to be realistic. My eyes are 62 years old and not getting younger. Can I really expect a lot of improvement in a group?

February 9, 2014, 11:38 AM
Not at 62 I'm afraid. And not over iron sights. But, given those results, I think your rifle is telling you, "Give me some more of that" :)

Don McDowell
February 9, 2014, 12:12 PM
That postell bullet is not a good choice for hunting. But having said that I can tell you it will take approximately 15 minutes of elevation ( 3 big marks on the sight staff) to go from 100-200, wind ,light, mirage, humidity, and temps can all mess with that a couple of minutes here and there tho.
If you are going to the heavier bullet than the 405 gr. I would suggest the 500 gr government bullet, or the 480 gr flatnose that Lyman offers for hunting bullets.
You will likely find the 3f goex shoots similar to the 2f Swiss. Likewise when going to the OE the screen sizes are the same as Swiss, so it's pretty much a simple thing to just replace one for the other.

:what: 62 oh my god and you're not in a nursing home...:confused: Good lord look at the Quigley match results and the number of "white buffalo" (72+) entries and their scores. Shooting with irons is more a matter of setting your mind to do it, and getting away from the got to have a scope thing engrained into folks heads.

February 9, 2014, 01:56 PM
From the few posted results I've seen online where Swiss, Olde E, and Triple 7 have been compared they were all very similar in performance volume to volume. Typically it seemed there was slightly less variance with Swiss compared to the others, but it wasn't tremendous. It's also not a solid observation as I've seen one in which the Olde E was slightly better, but that wasn't the norm.

For me it's both performance as well as cost. Even if Olde E isn't quite as consistent it still provides great performance, is much more affordable than Swiss, and is an American product. But I'm also not competing for prizes or a name in lights. I'm not that good anyway, and likely wouldn't be able to tell much difference without using a micrometer.

February 9, 2014, 02:23 PM
Can't explain the difference in the two groups with the 535 gr bullets. Everything was exactly the same as much as I could make it. I had shot 6, 5 shot groups with Swiss and Goex and the 405 gr bullet. The best I did was a 3.5 to 4 inch group with the Swiss 2F. I wiped between each shot the same way and cleaned thoroughly between 5 shot groups the same way. The barrel never got too hot to hold. Cleaned again and pulled out the 535's. Shot the Goex first, wiping after each shot. I wasn't impressed. Walked back to the bench, cleaned the rifle and shot the Swiss group. I even forgot to wipe after the first shot. Walked down range and I was shocked. Such a difference from the Goex. So was the guy who was shooting with me. I like this performance but who is to say that 5 grains more or less powder, a different primer, different compression, different brand of powder, etc. wouldn't have the 405 grains doing the same? 5 more grains or 5 less could have had the Goex shooting where the Swiss was. Guess the combinations are endless. Thats what makes this fun!

February 9, 2014, 04:38 PM
You just wait and see the "continued betterness"* when you use
the same volume (~0.15 - 0.20" compression) of Swiss 1 ! ;) :D

(My Haigism du jour) :neener:

postscript: As to the 405's, its the bullet (mis)alignment upon exiting the case
and making the long unsupported jump through the throat before hitting the
true bore that gets you in trouble. Jacketed bullets (BHN ~100+) can get
themselves straightened out in the bore without significant shape/base damage.

Being ~10x softer, lead cannot. :( It's got to hit the bore perfectly, hence the
benefit of the long-nose 'bore-rider' design which keeps the bullet aligned during
that critical transition.

Don McDowell
February 9, 2014, 05:04 PM
The first time he hits one of those little southern deer with that postel and it just pencils thru , the deer runs off ,... probably won't be to many grins going on....

February 9, 2014, 06:49 PM
But don't forget Don, that they are so damn accurate that you just shoot 'em right in the head... Barrel ladder sight with narrow post front insert.

This was my 535 BACO Creedmoor this year at 60 yards off my knee...Frontal Brain Shot, BOOM!.:evil: Caught him in the dark timber while elk hunting. Had a bear tag in my pocket. He had such a great color, I figured "Might as well":D

February 9, 2014, 07:06 PM
I posted this on your other thread, but this is Olde E behind a 520 BACO M3 Money...at 300yards prone off the X-Stix, a couple weeks ago. MVA XLR Buffalo Soule rear and small cirlce apeture front.

I wouldn't use this bullet hunting because it has to be real hard, to maintain its' shape...but the 20 or 30:1 Creedmoor/postel should do fine.


Don McDowell
February 9, 2014, 07:16 PM
Wes it's all about shot placement.
Plus a good bit of real experience thrown in for good measure. A fella that I used to guide on a regular basis, came out with a BC in 45-70 when they first came out. After we got his deer , we took that bc out of the box and went to work on seeing about making it shoot. Ended up loading him two boxes of cartridges. 1 loaded with the postell and the other loaded with the rcbs 82084. When he got back to Mississippi he took that BC out for the primitive rifle season. He took the postel loads.Shot 3 different deer thru the ribcage, lost 2, found the third one, and that one indicated that that bullet made precious little wound channel...
There's a reason that bullet shape wasn't used for hunting until the advent of expanding jacketed bullets, smokeless powder and high velocity.

February 9, 2014, 07:33 PM
Yeah now that you mention it...I'm sure you could loose a little whitetail in the thick briars back east.

But out here (MT) the country is bigger and we ussually have snow.

I have never lost an animal shot with the Sharps because it is so easy to shoot extremly well. I have no idea of how many whitetails I have shot in the head with mine. Shot a lot of heads off grouse with it too:D

I have shot a lot of critters with this Sharps and even the big wide nose flat point 450gr cast just penciled through the bull elk I shot with it about 12 years ago.

You could see the bullet go in (and hear it THUMP) into his ribs. He just trotted off about 100 more yards and stopped and looked back. My buddy with me (had 7mmRUM) said "You need some help:uhoh:"... I said, "Just leave my elk alone." And I fired another big FP into his ribs. This bullet hit about 4 inches behind the first and he bolted out of sight.

The big bull was piled up just out of sight. He probly went 250 yards total.

You could eat right up to the hole....but my buddy shot my bulls partner with his big 7RUM and he had the throw out both shoulders and most of the backstraps...but his bull did drop instantly at the shot...:confused:

Ater this I just went back to the soft cast Creemoor that shoots well and have had no problem...even coyotes seem to just get blown off there feet as the big soft bullet crashes into them.:evil:

Don McDowell
February 9, 2014, 07:40 PM
The creedmoor bullet has a better shape for killing than the postel, but neither of them can hold a candle to the traditional Sharps or Remington designs.

February 9, 2014, 07:41 PM
What bullet brought that great beast down??

Don McDowell
February 9, 2014, 07:44 PM
One like this one.

February 9, 2014, 07:45 PM
Nice!! ^^^^They sure make a loud THUMP! sound when the Big-Soft crashes into them doesn't it:D

Don McDowell
February 9, 2014, 07:47 PM
Yep, sounds like dropping a watermelon on the grocerystore driveway...

February 9, 2014, 08:34 PM
I was looking at some BACO molds. Some have "tapered first bands" or reduced size first bands. What is this all about?

Don McDowell
February 9, 2014, 08:46 PM
Those are so you can seat the bullet out a little further for more powder capacity, or less compression. It exposes grease grooves, sort of an alright thing for target shooting, probably not the best for hunting conditions.

February 9, 2014, 08:56 PM
I see..and I agree with your opinion of my not grinning when I lose a deer. Happened to me twice in my life. Sickening feeling. I gave up the traditional behind the foreleg shot years ago. I shoot straight on shoulder shots, a bit high even, if I can get em. Seems not to matter what shape the bullet is. If it is heavy enough and it breaks both shoulders, odds are they may hobble off slowly, but they ain't gonna run. Been my experience anyway. Today at the range a friend gave me a few of the 500 grain big ol round nose Govt bullets to try. They are .012 shorter than the Lyman Postells and have a larger less sharp) front profile. I like the looks of them too and will try to get some loaded and on to paper this coming weekend. Hope they do well. They are sized 459 and weigh 513 -515 on my scales.

Don McDowell
February 9, 2014, 09:37 PM
Those government bullets were designed to tear flesh ,smash bones, and penetrate. Everything a person wants for a hunting bullet.

February 10, 2014, 10:00 AM
The Lyman 457125 (500gr Gov't) has the long parallel-sided nose required get
the bullet aligned in the bore before leaving the case -- especially important
in long-throated chambers like the Pedersoli. Same principle as the Postell,
but somewhat blunter nose. Both, however, operate by the same principle
at BP terminal velocities: They punch a large hole through lungs and
other organs.

I may even have a mould somewhere.....

February 10, 2014, 07:47 PM
I did, I did, I did have a 457125. `Use it with the 458 Win
cast w/ Lyman#2 at 1,400 fps (BP pressures) over AA5744

1" groups@100yd in a rifle notorious for a long throat that's
death on cast bullets.

Theory wins again.... :evil:

Jim Watson
February 10, 2014, 08:39 PM
If I were going deer hunting with a .45-70, I would borrow a friend's Lyman 457122, the Gould Express 330 gr hollowpoint. Of which Mr Gould said "Loaded with 85 grains of Hazard's Ducking Powder, it shoots practically as flat as a .45-90 and with greater accuracy."

February 10, 2014, 11:17 PM
But it's got to shoot accurately, first & formost. Unfortunately my 45-3 Sharps and my 45-90 rolling block are long throated -- a trait apparently shared by the OPs `78 Lyman w/ another Pedersoli chamber/barrel. I've got targets from back in the early-mid 80s that utilize the whole target backer with 300gr holes. :banghead:
No matter, That's a traditional design for traditional repro's.

On the other hand, my 45-70 Marlin Guide Gun likes 405 Flat points -- hot. ;)

Don McDowell
February 10, 2014, 11:31 PM
That gould bullet gets mixed reviews, but be that as it may the OP's rifle already shows a dislike for the lighter bullets with that 18 twist, so he's going to have to stay on the heavy side of 1.1 inch bullets to get the thread the needle accuracy.

February 11, 2014, 10:59 AM
This (+1)

Gibbs' Rule #73: Feed the rifle what it likes.

February 11, 2014, 11:20 AM
Mr Gould said "Loaded with 85 grains of Hazard's Ducking Powder,
it shoots practically as flat as a .45-90 and with greater accuracy."The 45-90(WinchesterCenterFire) and the 45-2.4" Sharps are identical cases. They are not identical chamberings.

- The 2.4 Sharps presumed a heavy bullet/long throat suitable for single-shot falling/rolling blocks, 1:18 Twist

- The 45-90WCF was designed on the same case using a short/light bullet/short throat suitable for limited OAL lever actions, 1:32 Twist

Always remember Gibb's Rules
It may look like a duck, but isn't

February 11, 2014, 03:14 PM
Exactly guys, it doesn't like short, lightweight bullets. Hopefully this weekend I'll get to try some of the big Govt RN bullets my friend found. His Dad cast them years and years ago before passing away. A hardness test shows them to be pretty much pure lead, ( 8 to 10 BHN). I'm anxious to see how they shoot. We don't know what mold they came from but they weigh 520-30 on his ( my friends) scale. I'm guessing maybe RCBS 45-530. I'll probably end up with that mold or the Lyman 457132. I'm a bit concerned with the RCBS mold because the RCBS's I already have seem to pour a bit shy of the advertised diameter. I've only cast from wheel weights in them for 45LC, 44 and such. I'd rather they pour a tad light than small. Also, I can't thank you guys enough for putting up with my newbie questions etc. Special thanks again to Mi9ke for sending me the postells and educating me on the need for the long noses in my rifle.

February 11, 2014, 03:46 PM
A hardness test shows them to be
pretty much pure lead, ( 8-10 BHN) Actually, that's about twice as hard as lead (4.5-5.0) and probably
cast from wheel weight which have "self-annealed" over time.

Should be `bout perfect as it approximates the 16:1 old-time alloy .
Remember soft lube. ;)

February 11, 2014, 04:03 PM
Yep, you're right. Lead sure is 4.5-5.0. I used a Lee tester and the hole reached almost all the way across the scale. For some reason, I read it as almost pure lead. I'm probably gonna use a 30:1 alloy, at least that is what I have about 20 lbs of left.

Don McDowell
February 11, 2014, 08:04 PM
The rcbs 530 is a postel/creedmoor shaped bullet, not a particularly good hunting bullet either.

February 11, 2014, 08:32 PM
This is the bullet I'm going to try this weekend.

Don McDowell
February 11, 2014, 09:08 PM
That's the 500 gr government bullet.

February 15, 2014, 12:52 PM
Loaded some of those Govt bullets this morning. Funny, I used 65 gr of Swiss 1.5 and also 65 gr of Swiss 2F. I tried one and two .030 wads in different 5 shot loads. In all the loads, after compressing the powder with a die apprx .200, hand seating the bullet, the bullet would creep back up in the case, sometimes as much as two grooves high. Never had this happen before. I then seated them again against the wad and used a lee factory taper crimp die to just barely kiss the rim to hold it in place. What causes this? These are once fired, unsized, Starline brass.

Don McDowell
February 15, 2014, 02:07 PM
Air is trapped under the bullet, and not enough neck tension to hold the bullet in place.

February 15, 2014, 03:36 PM
These are once fired, unsized, Starline brass.

You need resize -- barely -- but you still need to narrow that neck area a bit
before re-belling (also just a bit). Otherwise the compressed air underneath has
nothing to resist it pushing the airtight piston called a greased bullet right back out. :banghead:

February 15, 2014, 06:37 PM
Ok, I'll let the sizer die barely touch the neck. I loaded up 4 groups of the big round nosed govt bullets with the Swiss 1.5. They do shoot! I also took my last five of the bullets you sent to me and loaded them with 1.5. WOW...I increased the powder to 70 gr and removed one wad. Compression is really close to the same. Wish I had kept that target to photograph but we were in a hurry and I forgot it. Anyway. I shot 5 of the govt bullets with 65 gr of Swiss 1.5 and 5 of the Lyman Postells.. All 10 shots made one big ragged hole about 3 inches wide. I also shot three other 5 shot groups of just the govt bullets and they also shoot to a 2.5 to three inch group. I'm not satisfied with that but I am happy with it for starters. I'll keep refining until I find that sweet spot. Probably gonna buy both the 457125 and 457132 molds. Both shoot really well I think.

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