Pistol caliber rifles in Ohio?


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1911 guy
February 8, 2014, 11:52 PM
I read a story in the Cleveland Plain Dealer that discussed a possible move by Ohio Fish and Game that would allow pistol caliber rifles to be used in the upcoming deer season.

Does anybody here have actual information or an inside track to the progress of the discussion withing the game commission?

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Grumulkin
February 9, 2014, 07:26 AM
ODNR News (http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Home/News/NewsReleaseArchives/tabid/19075/EntryId/3381/Ohio-Wildlife-Council-to-Consider-Proposed-Deer-Hunting-Dates-Bag-Limits.aspx)

As noted in the above article, open houses will be held to discuss the proposal.

There is also an unpublicized proposal to allow suppressors for hunting which I suspect will go through.

The_Armed_Therapist
February 9, 2014, 01:22 PM
That would be GREAT! I moved here from a rifle state, and have a Marlin 1894 .44mag that I would LOVE to take out next season. Hopefully this passes. Frankly, it only makes sense.

weblance
February 9, 2014, 03:00 PM
As noted in the above article, open houses will be held to discuss the proposal.

There is also an unpublicized proposal to allow suppressors for hunting which I suspect will go through.

I like the idea of both proposals.

matrem
February 9, 2014, 03:33 PM
I'd love an excuse to buy a new .444 lever gun or maybe even a .50 Beowolf upper.(not thinking either would offer a real advantage at putting venison in the freezer to what we have now though)

But we could actually have rear stocks on our deer "killin" handgun rounds.

Lets hope the opinions at these "open houses" don't get too awful technical..

Grumulkin
February 9, 2014, 04:01 PM
The allowance of rifles would also motivate me to load up some 45-70 cartridges for my Encore barrel that I've never shot.

1911 guy
February 9, 2014, 08:49 PM
Seems the Farm Bureau is on board. They are a main driver in deer control policy here in Ohio.

I expect that within a decade, we'll be like Virginia (where I lived decades ago). Rifles will be allowed on a county by county basis. I'm talking "high powered" rifles, not the pistol calibers being discussed now. The theory of the "super-dangerous high powered will travel forty miles and less dangerous than a shotgun slug" has been thoroughly debunked by Army Ordnance.

Anyway, I may start cruising for another .44 levergun soon. Had a Model 94 when they were a dime a dozen and sold it. Been kicking myself ever since.

dstegjas
February 9, 2014, 09:20 PM
I have been waiting on this for a long time. I have a .357, 44 mag. and a 45/70 just waiting for the change to take a deer. From what I hear the only snag is how to limit the magazines to 3 rounds like the shotguns.

I am planning on attending the meeting in March to find out what they decide.

Jim

Grumulkin
February 10, 2014, 09:05 AM
I can't see that there would be any need to limit magazine capacity. For handguns, there is no limit on magazine capacity so why should there be for rifles?

MARKMALL
February 10, 2014, 01:45 PM
There has been talk of this for years. I hope it goes through this time.

dstegjas
February 10, 2014, 07:28 PM
I can't see that there would be any need to limit magazine capacity. For handguns, there is no limit on magazine capacity so why should there be for rifles?
Grummulkin, then why did they just recently limit the number of rounds in a shotgun magazine. We have been able to hunt with a 6 round revolver for around 20 years now. I am not saying I understand their logic, I am just repeating what I have heard. For what it is worth, I do agree with you. I never understood why they plug a shotgun to 3 rounds.

Jim

Grumulkin
February 10, 2014, 09:12 PM
The number of rounds in a shotgun chamber/magazine has been limited for years I believe. Federal law for migratory bird hunting, mandates the use of shotguns holding no more than 3 rounds total. I would suspect the reason for limiting the cartridge capacity for deer hunting with shotguns is to have less ambiguity in enforceing waterfowel hunting laws. As for why the feds limit shotgun capacity; I don't know but assume it's aimed at conservation by limiting the number of birds taken.

I think it's the same sort of thing as the rule against hunting groundhogs during deer gun season; not that I've ever seen a groundhog out at that time of year. They don't want people out with rifles hunting deer who would claim, when questioned, that they were hunting groundhogs.

Hyrulejedi86
February 10, 2014, 10:20 PM
I hope both pass, I'm in Ohio and have been waiting for this to go on my first deer hunt since I finished college. I just can't find a good side eject lever in 357mag. I think the big question is how do you plug a lever action not so much why are they doing it? Any ideas?

dstegjas
February 10, 2014, 10:25 PM
It actually started in 1999 as per the news release I found below. It's hard to believe it's been 15 years. I know we were allowed to hunt with pistols prior to that, but I couldn't find anything that tells us what year that was. If you can find something on that let me know. I would be interested in knowing.

I am not a waterfowl hunter, so I can't say when they plugged the shotguns for that. I suppose it's possible that it has always been that way. I highlighted the part that tells why they did it for deer gun season.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
March 2, 1999

FEWER SHOTS TO BE AIMED AT DEER DURING GUN SEASON
COLUMBUS - The Ohio Division of Wildlife has proposed a new rule that will limit hunters to a maximum of three deer slugs in their firearm while hunting deer during the statewide gun season.

Current regulations do not limit the number of deer slugs that may be loaded into shotguns. A deer slug is a shotgun shell comprised of a small piece of soft lead generally weighing 1 to 1 ounces. Hunters may also use a muzzleloading rifle of at least .38 caliber or larger, a muzzleloading shotgun capable of shooting a single ball, five specific types of handguns, longbows, and crossbows during Ohio's deer gun and primitive seasons.

High-powered rifles and shotgun shells not containing a deer slug may not be used when hunting deer in Ohio.

The proposal was included among other proposed hunting and trapping rules and season dates presented February 17 to the Ohio Wildlife Council by wildlife agency chief Michael J. Budzik. It is similar to an existing rule that prohibits hunters from taking migratory birds, including waterfowl and mourning doves, with shotguns capable of holding more than three shot shells.

"While hunting is one of the safest of all outdoor activities, we have a responsibility to continue our efforts to reduce property damage and hunter injury incidents," said Michael Budzik, Division of Wildlife chief.

"We review accident reports annually looking for causes and trends that can be addressed by changes in our mandatory hunter education program and by regulation changes. It is our opinion that an increasing number of accidents have occurred over the last five years because the hunters involved had no limits on the number of deer slugs in their firearms. In some cases, this may have encouraged them to continue shooting at deer when the shot selections were somewhat questionable," said Budzik.


The Division of Wildlife estimates as many as 400,000 to 450,000 people hunt deer in Ohio each year. Hunting incidents involve an average of 15 people each deer season.

Another proposal made to the Wildlife Council will amend the current hunter orange rule to require hunters to wear a solid hunter orange jacket or vest during the statewide deer gun and primitive seasons. At present, hunters must visibly wear a hat, cap, jacket or vest colored hunter orange.

"Our goal is to have the torso covered with solid hunter orange. Many hunters already choose to wear more orange than is required and this should make them more visible to each other while outdoors," said Budzik. "A lot has been done over the years to improve and maintain hunter safety nationwide. With the thousands of people who participate in hunting, there will always be a very few cases in which property is damaged or someone is injured. Our proposals are designed to maintain the safety of an activity which continues to rank among the safest of all outdoor activities," said Budzik.


For Further Information Contact:
Dave Wilson or John Wisse
Division of Wildlife
(614) 265-6539

dstegjas
February 10, 2014, 10:26 PM
I hope both pass, I'm in Ohio and have been waiting for this to go on my first deer hunt since I finished college. I just can't find a good side eject lever in 357mag. I think the big question is how do you plug a lever action not so much why are they doing it? Any ideas?
Good question, and I have no idea. It certainly would not be an easy or quick process.

Hyrulejedi86
February 10, 2014, 10:30 PM
Perhaps a very long bumper that the first loaded round touches when loaded at the action. One long enough that will stop anymore than two rounds in the tube. I wonder if snap caps would be allowed instead?

d2wing
February 10, 2014, 10:58 PM
I am a little surprised at what they consider pistol cartridges. Some are pretty big, 50/90 etc.

1911 guy
February 11, 2014, 12:48 AM
What the "official" reason for limiting shotguns to three rounds is/was, I have no idea except the guesses already posited. The actual reason has a lot to do with the once common practice on public land of blasting through several boxes of slugs at first light "to get the deer moving". Put a hundred hunters in a relatively small parcel of land, at least half of them blowing through two or three boxes in the first five minutes of light and it was downright dangerous in some places.

Grumulkin
February 11, 2014, 09:57 AM
I don't see anything in the proposal to prevent you from using a rifle holding more than 3 rounds.

Rather than nameing specific cartridges they ought to just describe cartridge characteristics. They've named a lot of cartridges but have missed some. As it reads, you could use a 500 S&W Magnum but not a 50 AE or a 44 Supermag. A definition similar to what is used currently for accepted handgun cartridges would be preferable.

If the reason for limiting shotgun shell capacity is to keep hunters from blasting away indiscriminately, they've completely missed it with handguns but then fewer hunters use handguns and except for single shots, there is no easy way to limit handgun round capacity.

huntsman
February 11, 2014, 10:38 AM
I believe they'll impose the same 3 shot limit as with shotgun.

Hyrulejedi86
February 11, 2014, 10:42 AM
The first article on the buckeye firearms webpage I saw stated that three round limit would be included in the proposal.

buck460XVR
February 11, 2014, 10:49 AM
Rather than nameing specific cartridges they ought to just describe cartridge characteristics.

If the reason for limiting shotgun shell capacity is to keep hunters from blasting away indiscriminately, they've completely missed it with handguns but then fewer hunters use handguns and except for single shots, there is no easy way to limit handgun round capacity.


I agree. Many places that allow handgun caliber rifles limit them to cartridges originally developed for use in handguns and not cartridges originally developed for rifles. This many times is also limited to calibers that display a minimum of X-amount of power and above. If the naming of specific cartridges is within those guidelines or some other specific guidelines and named specifically just to avoid confusion, then I can understand.

IMHO, the notion that a D.E. with a 10 round capacity is less likely to be shot indiscriminately than a shotgun with a 5 round capacity just doesn't add up. Considering that someone with a 10 shot .44 lever has more range and firepower than a 12 ga. shotgun, I would think the limiting of shotgun rounds would be soon dismissed.

Too many states still define gun safety and bag limits by archaic Mother's tales and misguided beliefs instead of facts and science. Much of this is because the majority of folks in any given state are not hunters, safety experts or wildlife biologists, but still want to be the ones that make the rules for hunting in their state. As hunters and a minority, we will always be on the short stick.

huntsman
February 11, 2014, 10:59 AM
The first article on the buckeye firearms webpage I saw stated that three round limit would be included in the proposal.
+1
when I first read about the proposal I was excited because now I had an excuse to by a .45C lever gun to go with my blackhawk :) then I realized a plugged lever gun would be a hassle so I'm not sure what I'll do yet, I do believe this will pass so props to the BFA guys who worked hard on it.

buck460XVR
February 11, 2014, 11:12 AM
+1
when I first read about the proposal I was excited because now I had an excuse to by a .45C lever gun to go with my blackhawk :) then I realized a plugged lever gun would be a hassle so I'm not sure what I'll do yet, I do believe this will pass so props to the BFA guys who worked hard on it.


While a plug may work for a tube feed, what about handgun caliber carbines like the Ruger 77/357 and 77/44 that use a removable mag? Again, why would they need to be limited, whereas a revolver could hold 6/7/8 and a bottom feeder even more?

For those looking to buy a handgun caliber carbine to hunt with, I would seriously consider the 77s from Ruger. Easier to load and unload than levers, and much safer to handle because of the way they unload and because they have a standard type safety. They also are very accurate and accept optics much better than most handgun caliber carbines.

Hyrulejedi86
February 11, 2014, 11:29 AM
I was considering the ruger 77/357 myself but I just like the looks of a lever too much to pass up. My LGS had a camo 77/44 in stock last month and it was nice, light and smooth bolt. Took bad it want 357 I might have bought it.

bearcreek
February 11, 2014, 11:58 AM
Perhaps a very long bumper that the first loaded round touches when loaded at the action. One long enough that will stop anymore than two rounds in the tube. I wonder if snap caps would be allowed instead?
That is currently how pump shotguns are plugged. It's actually quite easy and I think it would probably be the same for lever guns. Snap caps are not currently allowed for shotguns because the rule is that the gun has to be dissassembled to remove the plug. I'm not sure what the solution would be for guns like the Ruger 77/44. I've never handled one but would it be possible to dissassemble the mag and modify it somehow to hold only two rounds? Don't know. Don't really care too much personally. I gave up shotgun hunting several years ago and started using a muzzleloader during gun season. Way more accurate, cheaper to shoot, longer range, lower recoil. You shouldn't need more than one shot, and if you do you did something wrong. When this proposal passes I'll be using an H&R single shot .44 mag.

bearcreek
February 11, 2014, 12:19 PM
I am a little surprised at what they consider pistol cartridges. Some are pretty big, 50/90 etc.
That term as they're using it is a little misleading. It's actually not referred to as a pistol cartridge in the current reg book, only as a straight walled cartridge. Not sure if you're from Ohio or not but the rule is any straight wall cartridge is legal in a handgun. So, for example, the .50 Beowulf AR pistol and the Thompson center pistol pictured below are legal for deer hunting here but the .44 mag lever action and the single shot 30-30 are not. The .44 lever gun is not legal because it has a shoulder stock and the 30-30 isn't because it's necked down. Not a lot of legitimate logic involved but this is government we're talking about, so thats normal. :rolleyes:

huntsman
February 11, 2014, 02:51 PM
Again, why would they need to be limited, whereas a revolver could hold 6/7/8 and a bottom feeder even more?

I believe the policy is any long gun will be limited capacity for deer hunting, I can only guess that it's a range thing(compared to handguns)

I've been chasing Buckeye Whitetails for over 40 years and the laws have never made any sense to me. IF safety was the underlying issue for the cartridge limits why haven't they allowed buckshot?

When this proposal passes I'll be using an H&R single shot .44 mag.

I'm leaning toward a single shot .45/70 but would love something in .45C

buck460XVR
February 11, 2014, 03:13 PM
I believe the policy is any long gun will be limited capacity for deer hunting, I can only guess that it's a range thing(compared to handguns).
I've been chasing Buckeye Whitetails for over 40 years and the laws have never made any sense to me.



Things like this is why I made this statement earlier.....







Too many states still define gun safety and bag limits by archaic Mother's tales and misguided beliefs instead of facts and science. Much of this is because the majority of folks in any given state are not hunters, safety experts or wildlife biologists, but still want to be the ones that make the rules for hunting in their state.


My .460 Revolver shoots a 'ell of a lot farther than either of my .44 mag carbines, and in DA can shoot just as fast if not faster . Again, sheer non-sense. Rules made on emotions and not facts. Glad I don't have to contend with what you folks do, but at least now you can enjoy using some kind of long gun. I just wish they would let us use all handguns during muzzle loader season here.

matrem
February 11, 2014, 06:00 PM
Lets hope the opinions at these "open houses" don't get too awful technical..

And I this one.

C'mon guys, think about the typical firearm knowledge of folks who'll actually be deciding this.

Less words involved in regulation is usually better.

dstegjas
February 11, 2014, 08:00 PM
I was thinking a little more about plugs for rifles. In the past when we were restricted to three rounds. The manufactures had already made the plug and it either was delivered with the gun when purchased, or it could be purchased later. It was at least already available. So I am starting to think they would have a hard time with a restriction like this. No one that I am aware of makes them. So how can they expect a hunter to buy something that does not exist.

Jim

bearcreek
February 12, 2014, 07:59 AM
So how can they expect a hunter to buy something that does not exist.

Jim
It doesn't take anything fancy for a pump action or lever action. I've used pencils or just a smooth stick, dowel rod etc. Anything thats long and thin enough to fit inside the magazine spring.

Grumulkin
February 12, 2014, 08:48 AM
My prediction; your agonizing about how to plug a gun to hold only 3 rounds will have no relevance because I doubt you'll be required to do it.

huntsman
February 12, 2014, 10:14 AM
^I've been following this issue for awhile and I forgot about this thread.

http://forums.buckeyefirearms.org/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=10500

"Many people may argue that rifles or carbines are not needed in Ohio due to safety concerns. All the surrounding states allow some form of rifle hunting with little difference in safety issues. In some of these states, much of the terrain and population densities are very comparable to Ohio. Range and accuracy are similar to firearms currently legal for deer harvest in Ohio, with accuracy being a little better in some cases. So what is the hang up? Capacity seems to be the sticking issue for the ODNR. Due to an accident back in the early 90's, Ohio enacted a three round limit for shotguns. The plugging does not apply to handguns. The argument is that someone shooting at a running deer does not pay attention to what is down range while following that deer in their sights. However, this regulation has created a new safety issue, when those wishing they had a fourth shot, take their eyes off the target to hastily reload their firearm. Reacquiring that target for a quick follow up shot can lead to the exact same problem. Where do we draw the line?."

Lehman explains the Division of Wildlife concerns, "It's the plugging issue that is our greatest concern. We have seen various proposals in the past. Most compare the rifles to the handguns since handguns are not plugged. However, handguns are self-controlling due to the skill set required to successfully harvest deer using them. Handguns are used at much closer ranges and the use of handguns is very limited. We realize the rifle carbines may be popular to hunt deer. The Division must ensure there are no safety issues. There may be some things we can do. We are continuing to evaluate the options to ensure whatever may be done doesn't open up more controversy."

bearcreek
February 12, 2014, 10:46 AM
My prediction; your agonizing about how to plug a gun to hold only 3 rounds will have no relevance because I doubt you'll be required to do it.
I hope you're right. I guess I can't imagine though why they would make us plug shotguns but not rifles, especially since it's so easy to do in many cases.

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