Enough gun, definition.....


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H&Hhunter
February 11, 2014, 01:31 PM
I am not trying to school or lecture anybody here. I am simply proclaiming what my definition of "enough" gun is.


The answer is it depends on the circumstances, the terrain, and conditions you are hunting in and of course what animals you are likely to encounter in the area you are hunting.

With that in mind here are my thoughts based on my experiences. Lets also keep in mind that I am talking about "Enough" which to my mind means more than adequate it means plenty of gun to provide a level of comfort and confidence. Adequate in my mind simply means that it is capable of doing the job if everything goes well.

1. In dangerous game country where close range elephant attacks are a real possibility such as the jesse bush of the Zambezi Valley or tropical rainforest/jungles or the long grass. Pretty much anywhere wild free ranging dangerous game hunting is conducted in sub Saharan Africa.

Your rifle, caliber and bullet combination should be sufficient to fully penetrate a large bull elephants skull from a frontal brain shot IE be able to stop a charge from close range. In addition your caliber choice should be heavy enough to turn that charge if your bullet does no find the brain of the elephant. Not a guarantee but possible with the right bullet and caliber combo.

With that in mind the rifle should be set up for fast handling with either a low power optic or good fast acquiring iron sights such as a shallow V and bead or better yet a good ghost ring set up with a large aperture and a white line square front post. You should be inanimately familiar with the rifle and able to shoot reload and operate the rifle without looking at it while on the run.

With the advent of really good modern bullets we have a wider selection of caliber choices now days HOWEVER in wild elephant country there is no substitute for a heavy large caliber bullet. My choice for a minimum comfort level in these specialized conditions are one of the various African specific.416's and up with a preference to the various .458's, .470's and if I was making a career of it in those conditions I'd be carrying a .500 NE double or a .500 Jeffery or .505 Gibbs in a bolt gun. Once you step up to the .500's there is markedly and drastic difference in how a big game animal such as an elephant reacts to being hit as compared to even a .470 or a .458.

Bell and countless elephant culling agents have proven that in the right hands with proper experience and numerous kills a 7x57 or a .308 with proper solids is an adequate tool for killing multiple elephants. I am not that guy and I will never be that guy. I, like most professional hunters I know like to have a bit more safety pad thus the larger heavier calibers for elephant.

2. Hunting areas that have dangerous game up to and including cape buffalo and big cats but no elephant. A .375H&H'ish power level gun with quality controlled expansion bullets is just fine with me.

3. Hunting in Alaska in big bear country, such as the Alaska Peninsula. To me enough gun in those areas is something in the .338 WM, .375H&H range and even one of the various .416's with good bullets isn't over doing it. I want something that is going to leave an impression on a mature bear at close range if the need arises. Up North in the tundra or inland grizz country a .30 cal such as a .30-06'ish level caliber with 180 gr or heavier controlled expansion style bullets works for me.

4. In the Lower 48 for elk it simply depends on your style of hunting. Adequate depends on your style of hunting. Enough gun however, to meet my definition should be able to get the job done under any circumstances including longish range say out to 300 yards but more importantly it should be able to get the job done comfortably in the thick stuff at close range too where a snap shot is a real possibility. And if you are hunting in those conditions where a snap shot is a possibility you need a round that is going to reliably penetrate to the vitals from less than perfect shot angles.In those conditions a .338, .35 Whelen, 9.3, or a .375 become a very useful tool and have enough penetration and momentum to reliably get the job done.

If your style is to glass and spot and shoot at longer ranges as is becoming popular, the caliber choices above aren't best choices. That is a specialized type of hunting that takes specialized gear and is the polar opposite of the way I like to hunt elk. While I enjoy having the skill and ability to make long shots it isn't the reason I hunt and I don't purposely strive to do so like we see so often on the hunting shows now days.

5. Deer hunting, once again it simply depends on how you like to hunt or are able to hunt as defined by your local circumstances. If you hunt deer primarily like I do which is in big wide open country you'll like something that has some reach and ability to provide a clean kill when it gets there. My deer hunting rigs trend to be something in the .270 to .308 diameter range and capable of making clean kills to about 400 yards as a maximum. the .270 or the .30-06 are plenty enough gun for deer under those circumstances. As would be many choices such as the 6.5 MM's, 7mm's you name it ther is a large list in this category. IMO the .243 is starting to get on the skinny side past 300 yards on deer HOWEVER lots of folks use it with no issues. It's just not my choice especially for big bodied western mule deer. Is the .243 an adequate deer round? You bet it is! But as per my earlier definition it doesn't qualify for "enough" gun under all circumstances for my purposes.

Now hunting from a stand/over a bait/overlooking a field IE "stand hunting" in general with known distances and a lot of time to pick your shots and wait for the perfect shot? That widens the field considerably and brings my comfort level way down in caliber. This is a situation depending on the conditions such as closer range and if it is legal, that I have no problem using a .22 center fire such as a .223 for deer. It is a simple function of having some control over your shot opportunity environment. And stand hunting is about the most controlled environment you'll encounter while hunting.

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d2wing
February 11, 2014, 03:11 PM
I pretty much agree with everything, except in my opinion a .300 Win mag with proper bullets is best all around for elk, just my opinion. But you are right, it is better to have too much than too little. A person needs to know the limitations of what they are shooting and the conditions of the hunt.

buck460XVR
February 11, 2014, 03:25 PM
But you are right, it is better to have too much than too little.

^^^I agree, and always thought this was the just of Ruark's book. The story of shooting the Baboon(I think) with one of the new high velocity light weight calibers and it then eating it's own intestines because the wound was so superficial, has always haunted me.

saturno_v
February 11, 2014, 03:36 PM
Pretty much agree on everything with the exception of the Alaskan peninsula.....even big coastal grizzlys are not match for a 30-06 with the proper load/bullet and I would have included the 45-70

The big 30 cal are fine in Africa too up to the big cats, I totally agreee that when we start talking about cape buffalo it's better to step up in power.

Arkansas Paul
February 11, 2014, 03:43 PM
Well, I think you're full of it H&Hhunter.

After all, Bell killed 8947590782075209475-9024309-724387548972045x487394 elephants with a 7x57 mauser. ;)

H&Hhunter
February 11, 2014, 06:23 PM
except in my opinion a .300 Win mag with proper bullets is best all around for elk, just my opinion.

d2wing,
I would have to say that is definitely a solid contender for one of the top spots.

even big coastal grizzlys are not match for a 30-06 with the proper load/bullet and I would have included the 45-70

I can't argue with you there. I just like the warm happy feeling a .375H&H gives me in big bear country. And confidence in your rifle is 9/10th of the deal really. A .45-70 is a fantastic bear defense gun as well.

ZeroJunk
February 11, 2014, 06:23 PM
Seems to be a traditional opinion. The new trend of using cartridges on the light side to be an enlightened hunter makes no sense to me.

H&Hhunter
February 11, 2014, 06:26 PM
Well, I think you're full of it H&Hhunter.

After all, Bell killed 8947590782075209475-9024309-724387548972045x487394 elephants with a 7x57 mauser.

Arkansas Paul,

You sir are seriously in need of some education Bell killed 8947590782075209475-9024309-724387548972045x487394.01 elephants with his 7x57. I expected more from you sir..............:evil:

saturno_v
February 11, 2014, 07:26 PM
Seems to be a traditional opinion. The new trend of using cartridges on the light side to be an enlightened hunter makes no sense to me.


....so according to you a 30-06 is "on the light side" against grizzly or a lion?? Maybe you should have a talk with Caribou, he actually hunts big bears up there with a Mosin....

Even on a charge situation (and at charge distances) the right 30-06 pill can reach the CNS (the only real charge stopper) of a Grizzly from any angle...if you cannot deliver the bullet where it needs to be the problem is you not the cartridge used and a bigger caliber is not going to help, actually it may make things worse...

saturno_v
February 11, 2014, 07:32 PM
H&Hunter a question for you from yoru experience vintage point.


I actually heard that some African hunters like the small and fast rounds on the big cats like the 7mm Magnum, 300 WM, 300 Wby, 30-06 up the the 375 better than the big and slow cannons....some says that these thin skinned animals "react" better being hit with high velocity rounds...what is your take???

Jason_W
February 11, 2014, 08:21 PM
The new trend of using cartridges on the light side to be an enlightened hunter makes no sense to me.

I don't think it has anything to do with wanting to be enlightened, I think people just really want to hunt medium with firearms they enjoy shooting. Modern bullet technology is allowing them to do so for the first time.

ZeroJunk
February 11, 2014, 09:15 PM
....so according to you a 30-06 is "on the light side" against grizzly or a lion?? Maybe you should have a talk with Caribou, he actually hunts big bears up there with a Mosin....

Even on a charge situation (and at charge distances) the right 30-06 pill can reach the CNS (the only real charge stopper) of a Grizzly from any angle...if you cannot deliver the bullet where it needs to be the problem is you not the cartridge used and a bigger caliber is not going to help, actually it may make things worse...

I've killed 400 pound hogs with a 22 LR. A bunch of them actually. So ?

I'm not likely to hit a charging grizzly in the brain. Only internet hunters do that reliably. And, although it in non existent on the internet hunters make bad shots. A lot of them. The notion that switching to some light for the task cartridge is going to turn them in to nail drivers or the newest bullet advertising is going to turn a bullet in to something twice it's weight is just silly.

If you can hit everything exactly where you are aiming good for you. I don't suppose it makes much difference what you shoot.

Art Eatman
February 11, 2014, 09:19 PM
Keep in mind that when it's Big Beasties With Teeth, there is "hunting" and "stopping". They are not the same.

I'd hunt a big bear with my '06, but I figure I'd be shooting an unsuspecting critter. If the situation gets out of hand, I'd maybe come to believe the '06 is "marginal". :)

As far as the smaller cartridges, the R&D in bullet design, these last fifteen or so years, has changed things considerably. Ideas of limits on utility which were common and correct in the period, say, 1950-1995-ish, are often no longer valid.

.22 centerfires, for example, or even the .243.

H&Hhunter
February 11, 2014, 11:43 PM
H&Hunter a question for you from yoru experience vintage point.


I actually heard that some African hunters like the small and fast rounds on the big cats like the 7mm Magnum, 300 WM, 300 Wby, 30-06 up the the 375 better than the big and slow cannons....some says that these thin skinned animals "react" better being hit with high velocity rounds...what is your take???

Saturno,

Lets define "big cat" first off. When speaking of leopard your information is correct cats react to shock and fast expanding bullets out of high velocity rounds that is one school of thought. Of course lets now define "high velocity". Most of the African PH's I've spoken with consider anything over about 2400 FPS to be "high velocity". With that in mind lots of folks say the .270 is a sensible minimum on leopard and lots like the .300 mags. But I've never met one who wouldn't be very happy with a nice soft point out of a .375H&H. The .375H&H is seldom the wrong answer. A .375H&h pushing a 270gr soft point bullet at 2800FPS is a seriously devastating round when it hits a light critter like a cat.

Now lets talk about lions. I've never met and spoken to any PH who recommends anything short of a .375H&H for lion and many recommend a fast .40 cal like a .416 Remington with expanding bullets. Once again 2400 fps seems to be the magical desired MV on lions too. There is a saying about lions, you can play about a bit with a buffalo, elephants can be turned, but you do not play the fool with a lion. If a lion gets a hold of you it's a very, very bad situation. A leopard will hurt you severely but most leopard attacks during a follow up are survivable, painful but survivable. A lion is a massive animal if he gets you down and starts savaging you, your chances of survival become very dim very fast it's the difference between flesh wounds and bone crushing deep internal injury. Have you ever noticed that you don't see any nicely posed charges for the camera when it comes to lions unlike buffalo and elephant? There is a reason for that. I've personally not met or spoken to any professionals who recommend lighter than a .375H&H for lion.

H&Hhunter
February 11, 2014, 11:54 PM
30-06 is "on the light side" against grizzly or a lion?? Maybe you should have a talk with Caribou, he actually hunts big bears up there with a Mosin....


Saturno,

Caribou lives up around Kotzebue, I also used to live in Kotzebue and have done a pretty good bunch of hunting up there. The bears caribou hunts are not the same bears as I was referring to in my post when talking about brown bears down in South central and south western Alaska and in fact pointed out the difference.

Here

Up North in the tundra or inland grizz country a .30 cal such as a .30-06'ish level caliber with 180 gr or heavier controlled expansion style bullets works for me.

As Art pointed out as well and I'll just add. If I was hunting an African lion from a blind and had a perfect shot the .30-06 would be an adequate round. If however I was following one up in the thick stuff NO WAY NO HOW would a .30-06 be my choice. I want something with bone smashing, freight train hitting power, something that leaves great big gaping holes all the way through and out the back side and breaks everything in between. This exactly why the British and other colonialists invented big bore heavy rifles during the hey day of African hunting.

Dr.Rob
February 12, 2014, 12:04 AM
H&H where does that .404 fit on your chart of 'enough' these days?

That was a really comfortable rifle to shoot, and fit me almost as well as the 458 Lott. It was certainly a better looking rifle.

saturno_v
February 12, 2014, 12:55 AM
I've killed 400 pound hogs with a 22 LR. A bunch of them actually. So ?

I'm not likely to hit a charging grizzly in the brain. Only internet hunters do that reliably. And, although it in non existent on the internet hunters make bad shots. A lot of them. The notion that switching to some light for the task cartridge is going to turn them in to nail drivers or the newest bullet advertising is going to turn a bullet in to something twice it's weight is just silly.

If you can hit everything exactly where you are aiming good for you. I don't suppose it makes much difference what you shoot.


So if you miss a CNS spot (the only assured stopper) on a charge with an -06 what makes you think you will hit the CNS with a 375 H&H?? Is the larger cartridge going to make you more accurate?? Where is the logic??

Keep in mind that when it's Big Beasties With Teeth, there is "hunting" and "stopping". They are not the same.

I'd hunt a big bear with my '06, but I figure I'd be shooting an unsuspecting critter. If the situation gets out of hand, I'd maybe come to believe the '06 is "marginal".



Again, where is the logic?? If an -06 is adequate for hunting a grizzly, it becomes suddenly inadequate in a charge situation (which by the way imply shorter distances)??
At these distance a heavy for caliber 30-06 bullet can reach a CNS from every angle....if you miss it you are going to miss it with a 375 too...

saturno_v
February 12, 2014, 01:03 AM
I've never met and spoken to any PH who recommends anything short of a .375H&H for lion and many recommend a fast .40 cal like a .416 Remington with expanding bullets.

I met quite few old African hunters (one we did talk about before from ex Rhodesia living in Vancouver BC) that said that a 303 British was a quite effective lion stopper in their days...

Obviouly I'm not disputing the awesome 375 H&H (on my short list of next purchases by he way) but a 200 gr. Nosler out of a 30-06 is a very impressive bone smasher and quite the drill bit especially at short distances on thin skinned animals....and you can load up to 240 grainers...

H&Hhunter
February 12, 2014, 01:29 AM
I met quite few old African hunters (one we did talk about before from ex Rhodesia living in Vancouver BC) that said that a 303 British was a quite effective lion stopper in their days...


And most countries have or had a minimum caliber restriction of .375H&H for dangerous game hunting, lions most definitely included. Of course a farmer in the bush of Rhodesia had a better than good chance of having a .303 in hand and I'm sure multiple lions met their demise to that caliber very effectively.

If I was using the .30-06 for bear or lion the 200 or 220 gr Nosler would be one of my top picks. And it still wouldn't be anywhere near my top ten picks for purposely hunting African lions. Of my rifles my first choice would be my .404 Jeffery stoked up with 347gr Woodleighs at something just over 2400 FPS. Followed very closely by one of my .375H&H's loaded with 270 or 300 gr Woodleigh soft points or Noslers. A wounded lion in the thick stuff is one of the most terrifying and dangerous situations that can be imagined. I like some extra horse power when it comes to killing machine like male African lions.

H&Hhunter
February 12, 2014, 01:34 AM
H&H where does that .404 fit on your chart of 'enough' these days?

Rob that is the smallest rifle I'll confidently take anywhere and do anything in the world with. Including elephant. With a modern action and modern loadings it is identical in power and performance to the various .416's Rigby, Remington, Ruger ETC ETC...They push a 400 gr bullet at 2300 to 2400FPS. I push a 400 gr bullet of slightly larger diameter .423 vs .416 also at 2300 to 2400 FPS. Virtually identical for all intensive purposes.

saturno_v
February 12, 2014, 01:38 AM
A wounded lion in the thick stuff is one of the most terrifying and dangerous situations that can be imagined. I like some extra horse power when it comes to killing machine like male African lions.


I do not doubt it...and I think in these conditions you do not really care much about bone smashing as much as having a CNS hit.....I heard stories of enraged wounded lions that soaked up elephant rifles bullets like candies, unfortunately in the wrong spots...in one particular case I read of a lion being hit squarely in the face by a bouble blast of 470 NE out of a double rifle and still managing to wound the hunter which luckily survived because in the process the lion got his jaw busted by the above mentioned double blast....the only sure thing in these thorny situations seems to be a brain os spine hit...

saturno_v
February 12, 2014, 01:42 AM
H&H do the 416 cartridges (for example the 416 Rem) have a real range advantage in terms or flat trajectory compared to the "classic" .45 cal & up???

It is true that the 416 Rem shoot almost as flat as a 375 H&H???

ZeroJunk
February 12, 2014, 10:13 AM
So if you miss a CNS spot (the only assured stopper) on a charge with an -06 what makes you think you will hit the CNS with a 375 H&H?? Is the larger cartridge going to make you more accurate?? Where is the logic??


Do you really think there is no difference between the stopping power of a body shot from a 30-06 and a 375 H&H ?

H&Hhunter
February 12, 2014, 10:18 AM
and I think in these conditions you do not really care much about bone smashing as much as having a CNS hit.

Actually both. If you don't make a CNS hit you want to inflict as much damage as possible for two reasons. One so if the critter does get to you he's as badly hurt as he can be and two you don't always have to make a CNS hit to turn a charge and the harder you hit him the more likely he is to change his mind. But here is the crux of it. I can shoot a heavy rifle just as accurately and just as fast as a .30-06 so why in the world would I be using the 06 in the above mentioned situation?

H&H do the 416 cartridges (for example the 416 Rem) have a real range advantage in terms or flat trajectory compared to the "classic" .45 cal & up???

Maybe a little bit depending on the .458 cal we are talking about. As compared to a .450 Rigby or a .460 Weatherby not so much. As compared to a .450 NE or a .458 WM yeah a bit. The main advantage a .416 has over the .458's is shoot ability. They tend to recoil a bit less making them easy for some folks to shoot yet still deliver a very hard blow to heavy game.

It is true that the 416 Rem shoot almost as flat as a 375 H&H???

Yeah I guess if we compare apples to apples they aren't to far off. A .416 firing a 400gr bullet at 2400 FPS is almost as flat shooting as a .375H&H firing a 300 gr bullet at 2500 FPS. In the realm of dangerous game it doesn't really matter but it might give you an extra 50 or 100 yards over a .458 WM when that eland bull pops up unexpectedly.

And of course if we start stepping down in bullet weight to the 350 gr bullets the .416 Rem or Rigby starts to become pretty flat shooting those at 2600 FPS. I knew a guy in Alaska that used a .416 Remington for just about everything shooting 350 gr X bullets. he claimed that it was the hammer of Thor on moose.

Same can be said for the .375 H&H and the various .458's of course. A .450 Rigby shooting a 400 gr Barnes TSX at 2500 or 2600 FPS would be pretty tough on stuff I'm guessing.

Art Eatman
February 12, 2014, 10:23 AM
saturno v, consider that something like a .375 will break more bones and destroy far more tissue than an '06--the much-longer penetration thing. IOW, stopping a charge without necessarily hitting the CNS.

Seems to me it's the usual issue about situation: What's planned vs. what might happen.

Robert
February 12, 2014, 10:56 AM
I am a huge fan of my 375H&H. Once we got the bugs ironed out it is a 375 laser all the way out to 300y, which is the longest I've used it for accuracy. I have hit targets at longer distances but that was a rock... It may not shoot flat as a super mag but I have found the 270g bullet works great in my rifle and scope set up.

And I am not saying that I would ever take a marginal shot but the 375H&H makes less than absolute perfect shots doable. Now if I can just get an elk to stand still in one spot for just a few seconds...

H&Hhunter
February 12, 2014, 11:02 AM
Now if I can just get an elk to stand still in one spot for just a few seconds...

I'm thinking that scent control might be your issue. lay off the MRE's dude!!;)

buck460XVR
February 12, 2014, 12:05 PM
A wounded lion in the thick stuff is one of the most terrifying and dangerous situations that can be imagined. I like some extra horse power when it comes to killing machine like male African lions.

Brought this to mind.......


tEIGqD80N6U&sns

BigBore44
February 12, 2014, 01:07 PM
So the '06 is acceptable, adequate, "enough gun" for the small tundra grizzlies (rarest and smallest species), and many costal brownies have been killed and guides and outfitters prefer their clients have .270-.30-06.

So a 600-1000+lb, thick skinned, heavy boned, with a thick layer of fat, grizzly vs. a 400-600 medium skinned, lean, lion. An '06, .270, 7x57 is enough for the bigger, but not the smaller due to likelyhood of penetration to the CNS..... I'm really curious about that.

Buck460,
I've watched and showed that video a hundred times. Never gets old.
Here's another one:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vNYwusa8xUY
Talk about a brush with death.

saturno_v
February 12, 2014, 01:38 PM
Do you really think there is no difference between the stopping power of a body shot from a 30-06 and a 375 H&H ?


In a charge situation?? Not so much...a 30-06 with heavy for caliber bullets has tremendous straight line penetration.....the 375 H&H by the way is not a big bore african cannon....it is definitely quite more powerful than a 30-06 but it is not like comparing a 243 to a 30-06.....

The 375 H&H was designed as an all around world cartridge capable of taking down heavy thick skinned animals up to elephants as well. It was not intended as a grizzly or lion round.

It is interesting how nowadays the -06 is considered by some almost a pop gun....I saw the devastation that a 200 gr. Nosler pill out of a 30-06 did to a very large elk (pass through)

I bet that if costs come down significantly and if technology will reduce the weight of the rifle the 50 BMG will be considered bare minimum for a bear...

saturno_v
February 12, 2014, 01:41 PM
Brought this to mind.......




.....yes and in that particular situation a 30-06 or a 460 Weatherby would not have made the slightest difference.....lucky brain shot (looks to me)....

saturno_v
February 12, 2014, 01:48 PM
H&H talking about chasing a wounded lion in the bush...what is your take on a 12 gauge shotgun with a 3" Brenneke Black magic??

I don't know if you are familiar with it, it is a non expanding .73 cal extremely hard slug with sharp edges....penetration is truly impressive (at short distances)

It is sold as a dangerous game defensive slug.

gamestalker
February 12, 2014, 04:41 PM
I wouldn't feel comfortable with a 30-06 in grizz country. IMO, a .338 WM would put me at more ease, or course with the right projectile.

I've seen black bears take a clean lung shot from an 06 that lived to see another season. All bears are tough animals and can heal under some amazing conditions.

GS

ZeroJunk
February 12, 2014, 05:20 PM
Yep. I was on a mineral lick between Biggs Flats and Dryden Creek in the Bob Marshall Wilderness. I was bow hunting elk which is more a morning deal during the rut, but I liked to spend the afternoon on that lick to see what showed up. One evening late I heard something coming in so I eased through the small spruce down to the edge of the lick and a grizzly came out the other side about 30 yards away. He looked about the size of Mack Truck. Nothing about that animal said 30-06 to me.

Bobson
February 12, 2014, 05:52 PM
Nevermind.

saturno_v
February 12, 2014, 06:42 PM
I've seen black bears take a clean lung shot from an 06 that lived to see another season. All bears are tough animals and can heal under some amazing conditions.



There have been deer surviving (meaning lost) to a supposedly clean lung shot out of a 300 WM....if it was a "clear lung shot" that bear would not have survived.


People drop big black bears with a 30-30 like a sack of potatoes all the time

H&Hhunter
February 12, 2014, 06:46 PM
So the '06 is acceptable, adequate, "enough gun" for the small tundra grizzlies (rarest and smallest species),

The 06 is adequate for inland grizzly but is not my first choice. I still like the .375H&H very much. As far as rarest I wouldn't exactly call the inland grizzly rare, I can take you to places in the interior of Alaska that is crawling with them. Grizzly's are more wide spread than brown bears by a long shot simply due to the fact that brown bear is a coastal bear and grizzly is an inland bear and there's a lot more inland than there is coast line.


and many costal brownies have been killed and guides and outfitters prefer their clients have .270-.30-06.

I've never heard one recommend the .270 however. Most that I know "recommend" the .338 WM as a sensible minimum though they won't turn down a client who wants to use his 06. I don't know of too many brown bear guides however that use a .30-06 or a .270 as a back up gun and they are the ones that have to go dig a bear out of the brush if things go wrong. Phil Shoemaker being an exception I've seen where he has used his .30-06 as a back up gun but he also uses a .458 wm, 505 Gibbs, and a .375 Ruger to name a few.

Here is a quote from the Alaska Dept of wildlife and the states recommendation on Brown bear rifles.
What is the best rifle to use for brown bear hunting?

Most experienced hunters consider a .30-06 rifle with a 180 grain soft-nosed bullet to be the smallest effective caliber for Kodiak brown bears. The .300 mag, .338 mag., and .375 mag. are popular and well-suited calibers. A waterproof rifle stock is also beneficial during a Kodiak hunt.


Kind of sounds familiar doesn't it? :D

So a 600-1000+lb, thick skinned, heavy boned, with a thick layer of fat, grizzly vs. a 400-600 medium skinned, lean, lion. An '06, .270, 7x57 is enough for the bigger, but not the smaller due to likelyhood of penetration to the CNS....

Those are some seriously HUGE inland grizzly bear weights and are more inline with a coastal brown bear. 600 lbs is an extremely large inland grizzly though they do get that big, the average male is more in the 400 lb range which is a very big animal capable of killing a human with very little effort make no mistake about it.

As far as your CNS comment if I said that it was a mistake. My point being that if you DON'T hit the CNS you want something with a bigger thump.

So my comment on lion vs inland grizzly doesn't have anything to with which animal is harder to kill. Rather if a follow up is required it's my thought that a lion is more dangerous and more likely to give a determined charge than is a grizzly. And in either case a .30-06 isn't my first choice. Did I mention that I really like the .375H&H?;)

H&Hhunter
February 12, 2014, 06:48 PM
H&H talking about chasing a wounded lion in the bush...what is your take on a 12 gauge shotgun with a 3" Brenneke Black magic??

I don't know if you are familiar with it, it is a non expanding .73 cal extremely hard slug with sharp edges....penetration is truly impressive (at short distances)

Probably would be a very effective choice.

Robert
February 12, 2014, 06:51 PM
Can we please not turn this into yet another bear thread that has to be locked? What is it about bear threads that cause otherwise sane people to lose their friggin minds?

As H&H pointed out in the op, I am simply proclaiming what my definition of "enough" gun is.

It is his definition. It is what works best for him and his style of hunting. Let's not get bent out of shape over what works best for one person or another.

saturno_v
February 12, 2014, 07:33 PM
My definition of enough gun is a cartridge chambering capable to get to the "goodies" (vitals/CNS) even from odd angles at the intended distances

H&H I hope the admin dos not lock the thread because of my reply to your points.


Actually I heard from quite a few people that lived in Alaska or are still in Alaska that an -06 with the right bullet is plenty medicine, tundra or coastal.

There is a joke that says that the caliber required to kill a big grizzly it gets bigger as you getting closer to Anchorage :D

Some of these people have seen big brownie more than some guides.

Some actually prefer for defence an easy handling and loading rifle (a lever 45-70, a pump 12 gauge with slugs or a pump action Remington in 30-06)

Caribou has taken a quite remarkable big one (inland or coastal it was big regardless) when he posted his pictures and he did with a bullet weight that many would not consider ideal... FMJ 147 gr. light weight, non expanding.


A 1951 Kodiak Bear hunt record....1400 pound...rifle a Winchester boltie in 30-06

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0diBlYy1H0

A 9' 6" grizzly taken a 80 yeards (pass through) with a 30-06 by a 17 years old

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4HfhF4Rv5Q


Outdoor Life article "30-06: The Ultimate Grizzly Cartridge"

"“Anyone who says the .30-06 is not effective on brown bears or grizzlies either has never used one or is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.”
—An Alaskan Bear Guide"

http://www.outdoorlife.com/node/1001308838

That said, obviouly if you lke your 375 and you can fire it as easily there is no reason for you to use an -06

1858
February 12, 2014, 07:51 PM
4. In the Lower 48 for elk it simply depends on your style of hunting. Adequate depends on your style of hunting. Enough gun however, to meet my definition should be able to get the job done under any circumstances including longish range say out to 300 yards but more importantly it should be able to get the job done comfortably in the thick stuff at close range too where a snap shot is a real possibility. And if you are hunting in those conditions where a snap shot is a possibility you need a round that is going to reliably penetrate to the vitals from less than perfect shot angles.In those conditions a .338, .35 Whelen, 9.3, or a .375 become a very useful tool and have enough penetration and momentum to reliably get the job done.

This is good information. I've been thinking about which rifle I'll use this year for elk and was leaning towards the Talkeetna in .375 H&H. The other decent option is a Montana in .300 WSM but I think I'll stick with the .375 H&H and a 270gr Barnes bullet. One of my coworkers was out hunting with his brother last year and the brother made multiple shots "in the boiler maker" on a big bull elk at 300 yards using a .300 Win Mag. The elk didn't want to go down and was dangerously close to heading off/down a ravine or similar which would have made recovery very difficult. My coworker is now rethinking the .308 Win that he's been using for the past few years. I have no idea if a 270gr .375 caliber bullet would have made a difference in that situation.

ZeroJunk
February 12, 2014, 09:39 PM
unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship

Or wittingly commenting on average marksmanship rather than that of the truly talented or the delusional.

saturno_v
February 12, 2014, 10:05 PM
Or wittingly commenting on average marksmanship rather than that of the truly talented or the delusional.


You keep mixing up accuracy and cartridge capability...a bad shot with a 375 is as ineffective as a 30-06 bad shot on an animal where both cartridges can reach full penetration to the vitals even from odd angles

To make an example, on a nice whitetail if you miss the vitals with a 375 the extra power of the cartridge is not going to help you extra power is not and it has never been a substitute for accuracy. that line of thinking is what get peopel killed in thorny situations....

I would be scared to death (and even more) and I do not intend to track a wounded lion or bear but if I find myself in that situation a 375 over a proper full penetrating 30-06 loading would not make me less scared (assuming I could shot both equally well) because all I need is a CNS connecting shot....

An experienced guide said that when you hear often stories of a dangerous animals "soaking bullet like candies" and not going down often is their clients shooting the big boomers all over the place....one in the air, another on a tree another on the guts...


And no, before you say it I would not hunt a grizzly with a 30-30 or a 243...it is done and it has been done but these cartridges could have marginal penetration in some situations....you still have a threeshold where you do not want to go below in every class of game.

ZeroJunk
February 12, 2014, 10:24 PM
a bad shot with a 375 is as ineffective as a 30-06

I just don't believe that.

BigBore44
February 12, 2014, 10:40 PM
So what DO you believe ZeroJunk?

ZeroJunk
February 12, 2014, 10:45 PM
So what DO you believe ZeroJunk?


I believe in laws of physics. And, if you have to go through paragraphs of contortions to try and explain your way around them you are likely FOS.

saturno_v
February 12, 2014, 10:53 PM
believe in laws of physics. And, if you have to go through paragraphs of contortions to try and explain your way around them you are likely FOS.


...so what are the law of physics that justify your thinking??

ZeroJunk
February 12, 2014, 11:38 PM
Linear momentum. Transfer of that energy over a larger area.

There is simply more power in faster fatter bullets to the point you can't stand to shoot them.

Whether one can shoot straight or not is a concern for there well being if they are being attacked by anything.

But, to the extent they can shoot their chances of survival will be better with the larger fire power.

Regardless of how many elephants somebody killed with a BB gun.

saturno_v
February 13, 2014, 12:18 AM
Linear momentum is hogwash if you do not take in consideration energy (which is a factor of velocity and bullet weight) and equally important sectional density....and we are not taking in consideration bullet construction and shape which is another variable and further complicate things.

The 375 H&H is obviosuly more powerful and it penetrates further compared to a 30-06 (actually not that much more when you take bullet of 200 gr. and up in 30 cal) because of its higher energy and similar SD in many bullet weight.

However the 375 H&H was designed to take down heavy boned thick skinned game up and including elephants. Bruins and big cats are not even near the upper limit of the 375 H&H capability.

In sum it up, the extra power of the 375 H&H compared to a 30-06 is of no consequence against, for example, on an elk at 100 yards....both cartridges are fully capable of bone smashing full penetration on that class of game...a pass through is a pass through....the 375 will just generate a slightly larger wound channel (depending on type of bullet used)

Now if we are talking about rhino or elephant, the 375 H&H expra oomph is fully warranted...

H&Hhunter
February 13, 2014, 01:16 AM
Saturno,

I am not in conflict with your statements. The 06 with the right bullets is a fully capable bear round though it should be considered a minimum. BTW that was Phil Shoemaker who made the comment about the .30/06 and accuracy.

For every big bear killed with a .30/06 post I'm sure we can find one of a big bear killed with a .375 or .338 or 8mm Rem Mag or whatever. It comes down to personal preference and my preference has been developed from having been in the Jesse bush with agitated and aggressive elephants and having spent my fair share of time cruising the alders in big bear country.

The .30/06 is a great round I carry one often. The last elk I killed with a . 30/06 took a 180 gr TSX through the shoulders with a clean exit and it fell over dead in about 3 seconds it was at 233 yards. It wouldn't have died any quicker if it had been shot with a .600NE. My op explains my thoughts on the subject pretty well I thought. If you want to hunt big and nasty stuff with a .30/06 get after it. Have fun take lots of pictures post them here and write a good story.

saturno_v
February 13, 2014, 01:35 AM
Saturno,

I am not in conflict with your statements. The 06 with the right bullets is a fully capable bear round though it should be considered a minimum. BTW that was Phil Shoemaker who made the comment about the .30/06 and accuracy.

For every big bear killed with a .30/06 post I'm sure we can find one of a big bear killed with a .375 or .338 or 8mm Rem Mag or whatever. It comes down to personal preference and my preference has been developed from having been in the Jesse bush with agitated and aggressive elephants and having spent my fair share of time cruising the alders in big bear country.

The .30/06 is a great round I carry one often. The last elk I killed with a . 30/06 took a 180 gr TSX through the shoulders with a clean exit and it fell over dead in about 3 seconds it was at 233 yards. It wouldn't have died any quicker if it had been shot with a .600NE. My op explains my thoughts on the subject pretty well I thought. If you want to hunt big and nasty stuff with a .30/06 get after it. Have fun take lots of pictures post them here and write a good story.


I agree 100% and it is exactly what I was saying as well.

No I'm not planning to hunt nasty creatures that bite back no matter the gun.....I'm too chicken! :D:p

BigBore44
February 13, 2014, 03:52 AM
H&H,
I too agree that you should use what you want. If you want to hunt impala with a .577 I don't care. It's your rifle, your money. Lots of people hunt elk and even moose with a .243. Watched an 11 year old girl kill a +400" bull elk with a .243 at I believe 250 yards. But, it was a great shot with a well constructed bullet. It wasn't luck.

Your opinions are your opinions. And you aren't wrong. They differ from some. The same for others. Would I take my '06 to Africa for cats? If I had any desire to hunt cats (I don't) I would be completely confident in a one shot one kill scenario with it. Would I take it for Dugga boys or elephant? No. Even though they have been taken with that round many times. But I also wouldn't hunt elephant.

I'm not saying anything bigger is a waste. I don't believe that. I'm saying that what were once "perfectly adequate" and "proven performers" are now considered by some as bare minimum. Even though advancement in the last 20 years of bullet construction and performance has improved tremendously.

So what does that say about how and why our way of thinking has changed?

ZeroJunk
February 13, 2014, 08:38 AM
I elk hunt with a 280 most of the time. But, I don't believe I can get away with taking some shots that I might take with 338 Win. So, I don't take them.


If you are in a situation where a big lion or grizzly gets after you and you have a 30/06 and a 375 H&H laying there which one are you going to pick up ? Seriously.

saturno_v
February 13, 2014, 08:52 AM
If you are in a situation where a big lion or grizzly gets after you and you have a 30/06 and a 375 H&H laying there which one are you going to pick up ? Seriously.


I would pick the one I shoot the best...because in a charge situation we are talking about very short distances (100 yards or less) and the right 30-06 load would penetrate a lion brisket to butt.....so it doesn't really matter....

At over 300 yards hunting a lion (just a theoretical example, dangeous game should not be hunted at extreme distances, I'm just trying to make a point) would I pick a 30-06 or a 378 Weatherby?? The latter, assuming I can shoot it right....

ZeroJunk
February 13, 2014, 09:14 AM
So, you are basically saying it doesn't matter whether you have wreck with a Volkswagon Beetle or a Suburban.

Art Eatman
February 13, 2014, 10:21 AM
This has gone into circular mode, round and round and nada nuevo.

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