South Carolina Govenor signs new gun law


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SC Shooter
February 11, 2014, 04:46 PM
Today, SC Govenor Nicki Hailey signed into law a bill that allows you to carry a concealed weapon into restaurants and bars so long as the establishment does not generally ban weapons. Thank you Govenor Hailey. This is another example of why it's a great day to be in SC.

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oneounceload
February 11, 2014, 05:04 PM
so long as the establishment does not generally ban weapons

Does that mean then, that a restaurant can just post a sign and eliminate what the Governor just signed?

Bubbles
February 11, 2014, 05:10 PM
Owner's property, owner's rules. I can choose to eat elsewhere.

JERRY
February 11, 2014, 05:21 PM
private property owner to decide is better than the state doing so. now if SC would quit being so cheap about reciprocity....

Sam1911
February 11, 2014, 05:27 PM
Does SC have separate rules on being in a bar, or having a drink while carrying, or does this eliminate that kind of thing?

dbp
February 11, 2014, 05:49 PM
This is a change in the existing SC law that now allows CWP holders to carry into any establishment - restaurant, bar, etc. that serves alcohol for consumption on premises as long as the person does not drink.

The establishment has the right to post no CC allowed. As you would expect, the bill has raised a considerable amount of animosity from the anti-gun crowd.

I actually feel that a good many of the restaurants will post no CC. I hope I am wrong about this.

Those of you in other states -- do the national chains such as Applebees, Ruby Tuesday, Outback, etc. allow CC?

NavyLCDR
February 11, 2014, 06:17 PM
Those of you in other states -- do the national chains such as Applebees, Ruby Tuesday, Outback, etc. allow CC?

In Washington it is legal to open or concealed carry in any restaurant, except in that portion of the establishment that is off limits to <21 years of age. The only signs I have seen at any restaurant have been the required ones at the entrance to the bar.

We can even enjoy a cold frosty amber beverage with dinner in the restaurant while carrying and we have no issues in WA state.

RetiredUSNChief
February 11, 2014, 06:26 PM
Here's what the bill says:

AN ACT TO AMEND SECTION 16-23-465, AS AMENDED, CODE OF LAWS OF SOUTH CAROLINA, 1976, RELATING TO THE PROHIBITION ON THE CARRYING OF A PISTOL OR FIREARM INTO A BUSINESS THAT SELLS ALCOHOLIC LIQUORS, BEER, OR WINE TO BE CONSUMED ON THE PREMISES, SO AS TO PROVIDE THAT THE PROHIBITION DOES NOT APPLY TO PERSONS CARRYING A CONCEALABLE WEAPON IN COMPLIANCE WITH A CONCEALABLE WEAPON PERMIT UNDER CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES, INCLUDING THAT THE PERSON MAY NOT CONSUME ALCOHOLIC LIQUOR, BEER, OR WINE WHILE CARRYING THE CONCEALABLE WEAPON ON THE PREMISES; TO PROVIDE THAT THE BUSINESS MAY CHOOSE TO PROHIBIT THE CARRYING OF CONCEALABLE WEAPONS ON ITS PREMISES BY POSTING NOTICE; TO REVISE THE PENALTIES FOR VIOLATIONS, AND TO MAKE TECHNICAL CHANGES; TO AMEND SECTION 23-31-210, AS AMENDED, RELATING TO DEFINITIONS FOR PURPOSES OF THE ARTICLE ON CONCEALED WEAPON PERMITS, SO AS TO REVISE THE DEFINITIONS OF "PICTURE IDENTIFICATION" AND "PROOF OF TRAINING", TO DELETE THE TERM "PROOF OF RESIDENCE", AND TO MAKE CONFORMING CHANGES; TO AMEND SECTION 23-31-215, AS AMENDED, RELATING TO THE ISSUANCE OF CONCEALABLE WEAPON PERMITS, SO AS TO REVISE THE REQUIREMENTS THAT MUST BE MET IN ORDER TO RECEIVE A CONCEALABLE WEAPON PERMIT, TO ALLOW PERMIT APPLICATIONS TO BE SUBMITTED ONLINE WITH SLED, TO PROVIDE THAT A PERSON MAY NOT CARRY A CONCEALABLE WEAPON INTO A PLACE CLEARLY MARKED WITH A SIGN PROHIBITING THE CARRYING OF A CONCEALABLE WEAPON, TO PROVIDE THAT A PERMIT IS VALID FOR FIVE YEARS, TO REQUIRE SLED TO SEND A RENEWAL NOTICE AT LEAST THIRTY DAYS BEFORE A PERMIT EXPIRES, AND TO MAKE CONFORMING CHANGES; TO AMEND SECTION 16-23-20, AS AMENDED, RELATING TO THE UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF A HANDGUN, SO AS TO ALLOW A CONCEALABLE WEAPON PERMIT HOLDER TO ALSO SECURE HIS WEAPON UNDER A SEAT IN A VEHICLE OR IN ANY OPEN OR CLOSED STORAGE COMPARTMENT IN THE VEHICLE; AND TO AMEND SECTION 16-23-10, AS AMENDED, RELATING TO DEFINITIONS FOR PURPOSES OF THE ARTICLE ON HANDGUNS, SO AS TO REDEFINE THE TERM "LUGGAGE COMPARTMENT".

Source: http://www.scstatehouse.gov/sess120_2013-2014/bills/308.htm


First of all, let's address the issue of "no guns signs" in SC. In answer to oneounceload's question: "Does that mean then, that a restaurant can just post a sign and eliminate what the Governor just signed?"

Yes. In fact, in SC "no guns signs" have the force of law by state statute Section 23-31-235". The wording of this bill in not to be confused with changing anything about that...private businesses could forbid the carry of firearms in their establishments whether this bill specifically said so or not.

When I say these signs have the force of law in SC, I mean they aren't treated like a "no trespassing" violation. In VA, for example, such signs do not have the force of law...however, if you are asked to leave, then you must or you can be charged with trespassing. In SC if you carry concealed in a place posted in accordance with the law, you can be charged with a criminal violation of the law specifically concerning carrying a concealed weapon. And that means you can lose your CCW license (among other things).


In response to Sam1911's question: "Does SC have separate rules on being in a bar, or having a drink while carrying, or does this eliminate that kind of thing?"

Prior to this bill, the issue of drinking alcohol in such establishments while carrying concealed was a moot point: carrying in bars or restaurants which served alcohol was not allowed, therefore neither was drinking while carrying concealed in them. There are, however, no laws about a person having any drinks at all while carrying, say, at their own house, a friends house, or elsewhere.

This new law specifically says that one may carry a concealed weapon in establishments which serve alcohol but they may NOT consume alcohol while on the premises. No law says that they cannot consume alcohol elsewhere.

LeontheProfessional
February 11, 2014, 06:43 PM
In VA this has been law for quite some time. However posted signs don't carry weight of law and they can only ask you to leave.

Sam1911
February 11, 2014, 07:40 PM
Those of you in other states -- do the national chains such as Applebees, Ruby Tuesday, Outback, etc. allow CC?
In PA it doesn't matter, a sign would have no legal bearing (they could ask you to leave regardless of a sign or no sign), so none bother to put up signs about guns.

Here you can carry in a restaurant, bar, etc., and can drink while doing so.

Al Thompson
February 11, 2014, 07:42 PM
There is also no such thing as a "bar" in SC. If you serve alcohol, you have to serve food. This had resulted in folks thinking they were eating in a non-alcohol serving restaurant when in fact the restaurant had a liquor license, making the SWP holder a potential criminal. :o

Grumulkin
February 11, 2014, 07:44 PM
I actually feel that a good many of the restaurants will post no CC. I hope I am wrong about this.

Those of you in other states -- do the national chains such as Applebees, Ruby Tuesday, Outback, etc. allow CC?

I have not visited the particular restaurants you mention but have been at a lot of others in Ohio since having a concealed carry license and can't remember any that have posted a no concealed carry sign except Pei Wei and that one came down eventually. There were a couple of car dealers I visited while shopping for a new SUV several years ago that had such signs on their door; guess what? They had no chance of selling any vehicle to me so someone else got the $30,000+ sale.

In Ohio, carrying a handgun into a place where a no concealed carry sign is posted is a misdemeanor. You cannot be charged with criminal tresspassing for doing so. If carrying in a place that serves alcohol; you are not allowed to imbibe alcoholic beverages.

dbp
February 11, 2014, 08:06 PM
There is also no such thing as a "bar" in SC. If you serve alcohol, you have to serve food. This had resulted in folks thinking they were eating in a non-alcohol serving restaurant when in fact the restaurant had a liquor license, making the SWP holder a potential criminal. :o
Very true Al. It has happened to me a couple of times that I had no idea the place had a liquor license. I just finished my meal and no one was the wiser.

MedWheeler
February 11, 2014, 08:47 PM
oneounceload writes:

Does that mean then, that a restaurant can just post a sign and eliminate what the Governor just signed?

In effect, this is true in any state. You'd be either in direct violation of a "no-carry law", or of trespassing, at the least. But, no state has any laws forcing restauranteurs or innkeepers to simply "accept" your carrying a firearm.

Cooldill
February 11, 2014, 09:00 PM
Good on Nikki! She's a babe too! :cool:

Plan2Live
February 11, 2014, 09:08 PM
The Bill Governor Haley signed (S308) contained several changes. The restaurant/bar carry part received the most publicity. The Bill is a mixed bag of pros and cons and in my opinion was poorly written.

To start with, the Bill becomes law immediately upon the Governor’s signature. In SC the State Law Enforcement Division (SLED) administers the CWP training program. SLED has not had time to re-write the 50 question exam. So as of today any CWP instructor holding a class has to decide whether they are going to teach the class to the new law and risk having students miss questions on the test which are now invalid or they have to teach to the test which is now wrong. Oops, the Legislators didn’t think about that one.

The Bill guts the existing training requirements. The training element is still technically intact but there is no longer a minimum number of hours required by law. In my opinion, which is backed up by precedent, this will create a “race to the bottom” as Instructors compete to create the shortest possible class. I realize this is a controversial topic even among the pro gun crowd but I still believe training is not only a good idea, I think it is a great idea. On the Pro side, this lowering of standards will probably mean SC will become reciprocal with other States as the lack of training required by other States has been the sticking point on reciprocity, until now.

Speaking of training, the new law permits certain military members to skip the live fire qualifying portion of the training but appears to make it mandatory for them to sit through the legal portion of the class. This is a near reversal of previous statutes pertaining to military members.

The Bill now allows a CWP holder to “secure his weapon under a seat in a vehicle, or in any open or closed storage compartment within the vehicle’s passenger compartment.” Previously, you could not store your pistol under a seat and it had to be in a “closed container secured by an integral fastener” such as a console or glove compartment. The problem with the new verbiage is; what constitutes a “Storage Compartment”? Is a cup holder a storage compartment? I say this is a problem because your average law enforcement officer isn’t up to speed on all gun laws and his interpretation vs your interpretation could create an interesting roadside discussion, or legal fees, or both.

There is some other confusing language regarding online applications, which SLED is not yet geared up to process, but the verbiage is in the Bill so….?? And a few other areas where I feel like the Legislators (most of who are attorneys) could have done a better job but, I guess making laws is like making sausage, right?

And finally, I am disappointed that they didnt take the opportunity to insert some language to cover "momentary and unintentional flashing" if your cover garment blows back or your shirt rides up while you reach for the top shelf. As it is now, that could earn you a ride "downtown" as the coppers used to say.

Oh, and for anyone thinking SC needs to forget all these rules and training and such and be a Constitutional Carry State, that legislation (S115) was introduced this year and is currently in Committee.

dbp
February 11, 2014, 09:35 PM
SLED has not had time to re-write the 50 question exam. So as of today any CWP instructor holding a class has to decide whether they are going to teach the class to the new law and risk having students miss questions on the test which are now invalid or they have to teach to the test which is now wrong.

When I got my CWP in 2010 a change had just been written into the law allowing something previously forbidden -- can't remember what that was now though. As I came to the question I realized the change was now permissible by law. I got up and pointed this out to the instructor and he told the class to mark the question so that it would be correct by the old law, but made sure everyone knew of the change. Problem addressed and handled well by the instructor in my opinion.

TRX
February 11, 2014, 09:38 PM
Pro or con, 46 cents for an attagirl or ***? note would be appropriate:

Governor Nikki Haley
Office of the Governor
1205 Pendleton Street
Columbia, SC 29201

It wouldn't hurt to look up the sponsor of the bill and send a letter to him, either.

Elm Creek Smith
February 11, 2014, 10:13 PM
dpb - Those of you in other states -- do the national chains such as Applebees, Ruby Tuesday, Outback, etc. allow CC?

In the Tulsa, OK, area I have not tried Outback, but I have carried in Applebees and Ruby Tuesday since they are not posted. Due to our most recent changes in the Oklahoma Citizens' Self Defense Act, if we have Handgun License (formerly a Concealed Weapon License), we can open carry or carry concealed. The only restaurant I have seen that had a sign was Los Cabos which has a "No Open Carry" sign. You cannot sit in the "bar area" which has the "over 21" signs.

As for drinking, you cannot carry while "under the influence," which by state law is considered .08% BAL. While driving you can be charged if your BAL is .05% for driving while impaired. I weigh around 200 lbs, so I can have a beer* with dinner if I choose.

*(NOT in Applebee's "Brewtus" 22 ounce glass!)

ECS

dbp
February 11, 2014, 10:25 PM
These two gentlemen pushed the bill through.

Representative Michael A. Pitts

Republican - Laurens

District 14 - Greenwood & Laurens Counties - Map
Columbia Address

327C Blatt Bldg.
Columbia, 29201

Business Phone (803) 734-2830



Senator Sean Bennett

Republican - Dorchester

District 38 - Berkeley, Charleston & Dorchester Counties - Map
Columbia Address

601 Gressette Bldg.
Columbia 29201

Business Phone (803) 212-6116

Plan2Live
February 11, 2014, 10:29 PM
Quote:
SLED has not had time to re-write the 50 question exam. So as of today any CWP instructor holding a class has to decide whether they are going to teach the class to the new law and risk having students miss questions on the test which are now invalid or they have to teach to the test which is now wrong.

When I got my CWP in 2010 a change had just been written into the law allowing something previously forbidden -- can't remember what that was now though. As I came to the question I realized the change was now permissible by law. I got up and pointed this out to the instructor and he told the class to mark the question so that it would be correct by the old law, but made sure everyone knew of the change. Problem addressed and handled well by the instructor in my opinion. Off the top of my head there are at least 5 questions that are currently incorrect. That's 10% of the entire test. That's a whole lot of "yeah, the test says this but...." The answer should have been; the Governor signed the Bill today and it becomes effective in 30 days or so which gives SLED and the Instructors time to re-write the test, their lesson plans, their student handbooks (for those that actually give students handbooks) their PowerPoint presentations, etc. That's the right way to handle it.

JoeH
February 11, 2014, 10:38 PM
it took affect as soon as she signed it

SECTION 3. This act takes effect upon approval by the Governor.

dbp
February 11, 2014, 10:38 PM
Off the top of my head there are at least 5 questions that are currently incorrect. That's 10% of the entire test. That's a whole lot of "yeah, the test says this but...."

Good teaching moment I'd say. Come on man -- look at the glass as half full and move on.

RetiredUSNChief
February 11, 2014, 11:32 PM
oneounceload writes:



In effect, this is true in any state. You'd be either in direct violation of a "no-carry law", or of trespassing, at the least. But, no state has any laws forcing restauranteurs or innkeepers to simply "accept" your carrying a firearm.

Not quite.

Posting a "no guns" sign in a state with no laws on the books which make it an offense (like the SC statute I cited above) does not automatically mean it becomes a trespassing offense. It becomes a trespassing offense AFTER being told to leave and IF you choose not to leave when told.

I believe I ran across a state where they had a statute on the books with respect to trespassing against the posted proscriptions on a property, however. Bugger-all if I can remember which state it was, though. Esentially, if someone posted their property with signs that said you could not bring guns on their property, then if you did you could be charged with trespassing because you violated the conditions for entry onto the property. In that state, the signs (properly posted) constituted being informed (as opposed to being verbally told).

danez71
February 12, 2014, 12:39 AM
Not quite.

Posting a "no guns" sign in a state with no laws on the books which make it an offense (like the SC statute I cited above) does not automatically mean it becomes a trespassing offense. It becomes a trespassing offense AFTER being told to leave and IF you choose not to leave when told.

I believe I ran across a state where they had a statute on the books with respect to trespassing against the posted proscriptions on a property, however. Bugger-all if I can remember which state it was, though. Esentially, if someone posted their property with signs that said you could not bring guns on their property, then if you did you could be charged with trespassing because you violated the conditions for entry onto the property. In that state, the signs (properly posted) constituted being informed (as opposed to being verbally told).

That's basically how AZ is. They also require a very specific sign that almost no business seems to use.

I walked into a bank one time.... no sign posted at the entrance... got all the way up to the teller only to see a hand written sign on the card board backing of a note pad that said "No Weapons". I LOL'd

Another time I went to a restaurant and was seated in the outside patio area. I was brought in through a little gate to the patio area and not the front entrance. After I paid and left I noticed the proper sign on the front door. That wouldn't hold up either in AZ.

Basically most of the AZ police treat it as when/if they get a call:

Business: We have a person with gun and we dont allow that.
LEO: Did you ask them to leave.

a) Business: No
LEO: Call us back after you tell them to leave.

or

b) Business: Yes.
LEO: Are the causing a problem?
Business: No
LEO: We'll send the next available unit out there.

Midwest
February 12, 2014, 07:36 AM
We are trying to get some things changed here in Kentucky.


http://www.local12.com/news/features/top-stories/stories/kentucky-bill-allows-guns-bars-8251.shtml


"A state Senate committee passed a bill Tuesday that would allow gun owners with concealed carry permits to bring their loaded weapons into bars as long as they're not drinking. "

TRX
February 12, 2014, 09:14 AM
> These two gentlemen pushed the bill through.

Thanks, dbp! I'll send three letters, then.

My usual note is short, along the line of "the rest of the country is watching what you do, and thank you for setting a good example for others."

You don't have to be effusive with such a letter, just mentioning the bill number and your congratulations will do. They probably aren't going to sift through someone's lengthy screed on RKBA, particularly from a non-constituent.

edit: written, printed, envelopes addressed; they'll go out this afternoon

flphotog
February 12, 2014, 10:07 AM
This is good news, now I can actually eat when driving through NC.

tomrkba
February 12, 2014, 10:10 AM
FINALLY! I found vacationing in South Carolina to be quite annoying in that respect. Why carry if you cannot go anywhere? Restaurants are in the top three locations people go to when they go out. Sheesh.

SLED could have been proactive and had someone update the tests in advance. It is not like they did not know the governor was likely to sign it.

ClemsonAl
February 12, 2014, 12:59 PM
Gov. Haley can now carry her Christmas present (Beretta Px4 Storm) to the restaurants. Thanks Governor!!

dbp
February 12, 2014, 01:50 PM
This is good news, now I can actually eat when driving through NC.
That's South Carolina my man -- not our good neighbors to the north.

oneounceload
February 12, 2014, 02:26 PM
Originally Posted by dbp View Post
Those of you in other states -- do the national chains such as Applebees, Ruby Tuesday, Outback, etc. allow CC?

No issues in Florida - state preempts. You can be asked to leave since it is private property and if you do not, then you get charged with trespassing. Just sit AT the bar in those places, but consuming is no big deal

SMMAssociates
February 13, 2014, 06:21 AM
Just happened to think - I haven't been in SC since 1992 or thereabouts.... The former day job had a plant in Anderson, which is over by Atlanta. Great place to visit....

OH picked up essentially the same restaurant carry law in October 2011. Before that, if the place served alcohol, we had to stay out, or leave the gun in the car.

The usual "blood in the streets" bleats from the anti's, but nobody's been out there mopping anything up :D....

The local Ruby Tuesday's isn't posted, btw. The manager's a shooter, and his daughter is with a local PD. We share components sources :D.... The only restaurant I've seen posted is a mom & pop that doesn't serve anyway. A "Longhorn" WAS posted, back when we couldn't carry in there anyway, but that sign vanished.

I missed all the fun in OH when the new law took effect. The wife and I were in El Paso TX that weekend. I did get to tell her the story of the TX laws, though, as we drove by a Luby's....

Hope the SC folks enjoy the recognition of their freedom!

(Want a laugh? I've been to TX about five times in the last ten years, and the only sign I saw was an "If you don't have a license" sort of thing. Until February 2012, when I noticed what seemed to be a genuine TX 30.06 sign in an Applebees. INSIDE THE STERILE AREA at DFW! Federal-looking sign across the way at an airline gate. Makes you wonder....)

Regards,

rhinoh
February 14, 2014, 07:01 PM
Prior to this bill, the issue of drinking alcohol in such establishments while carrying concealed was a moot point: carrying in bars or restaurants which served alcohol was not allowed, therefore neither was drinking while carrying concealed in them. There are, however, no laws about a person having any drinks at all while carrying, say, at their own house, a friends house, or elsewhere.



Don't forget though in SC you must have permission to enter another's residence while carrying, drinking or not;)


SECTION 23-31-225. Carrying concealed weapons into residences or dwellings.

No person who holds a permit issued pursuant to Article 4, Chapter 31, Title 23 may carry a concealable weapon into the residence or dwelling place of another person without the express permission of the owner or person in legal control or possession, as appropriate. A person who violates this provision is guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction, must be fined not less than one thousand dollars or imprisoned for not more than one year, or both, at the discretion of the court and have his permit revoked for five years.

RetiredUSNChief
February 14, 2014, 10:43 PM
^^^^

True, that. That applies to anybody's house other than your own...friends or family.

TRX
February 15, 2014, 10:27 AM
"Concealable" and not "concealed"?

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