kimber 10mm target ACCURACY


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Christy Rutten
April 1, 2004, 08:12 AM
I've shot about 500 rounds now through it and at 15 yards it is perfect but when I get out to 20,30, and40 yards it really spreads out. I have left the factory adjustable sights on it and put the bright sights paint on them orange in front and green in back. Do you guys think I can improve my longer range shooting if I put on a front night sight tritium which would would have the .180 dot instead of just the big block in front. I want to hunt this fall with this piece and 30 to 40 yard accuracy is very important so all suggestions are welcome.

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Sean Smith
April 1, 2004, 09:56 AM
Consider this: most high-precision shooters use black-on-black sights (or optics). Dots and so forth are nice for shooting quickly at shorter ranges, but aren't real helpful for hitting at 25+ yards. If I was you, I'd wash the paint off and just practice more. Being precise at 25+ yards is hard.

MP-5
April 1, 2004, 10:06 AM
I dont think the sights are the issue if they are the target type sights offered on stock Kimbers. As long as they are giving a good crisp sight picture they should be fine. I have Wilson adjustables on my 10mm and they are basically bor-mar knockoffs. The 10mm can be very accurate but like every gun/caliber combo one must get the combo that is the most accurate. If the 180's are not shooting accurate try a different bullet weight.
My Caspian 10mm groups within 2 inches at 50 yards. I handload and the Caspian is fitted very tight. Ive had great accuracy with a variety of ammo including 200 grain projectiles. Winchester Silvertips which are 175 gr. are a nice load that can be a great hunting load. Try different loads in your gun and see what works best. You have put some rounds through your Kimber, what exactly did you try? Also are you shooting from a bechrest? A nice sandbag can make all the difference in testing different loads.
Offhand, I would limit my range to the distance I could hold all my shots into a 8 inch paper plate. That should be your max hunting distance with that particular weapon. Handgun hunting can be very challenging and a whole lot of fun. The 10mm is great on whitetail and I too am going out this fall. Good Luck!
:cool:

Sean Smith
April 1, 2004, 10:08 AM
Another thing to consider: if you are trying to hit out to nearly 50 yards, the accuracy of the hardware becomes a real factor in how accurate you can be. In recent gun tests in magazines Kimbers have grouped around 3.5" @ 25 yards. For most uses that is pretty good, but for really high-precision shooting that is kind of crappy... that works out to 7" @ 50 yards, at best. Put another way, the gun is patterning over half a foot before your "wobble" and any wind are even factored in.

Variation is additive; if you have 5" of wobble at 50 yards, and the gun would group 7" @ 50 yards from a machine rest, what you will actually shoot on average is a 12" group. Conversely, with the same 5" wobble at 50 yards, and a gun that would group 1.5" @ 50 yards , what you would actually shoot on average is a 6.5" group.

So you might want to shoot your gun off sandbags, or better yet a ransom rest, at 25 yards to see how accurate it actually is, independent of your shooting ability. Because no matter how good you are, you can't shoot better than the gun is capable of; you can only reduce how much inaccuracy you add to that.

caz223
April 1, 2004, 10:13 AM
Ageed, three dots are for fast recovery, and basic black is better for 25+ target shooting.
My razorback does pretty well at long ranges even with blazer ammo.
My G20 (Which is very accurate, BTW.) is just not as good at long ranges because of the crappy sights.

agtman
April 1, 2004, 01:19 PM
I agree with what's been said thus far, but would emphasize the point about the bullet & load combo. It depends on what your gun likes - all other things being equal. What factory load are you shooting that you're getting these groups? (Can't speak to handloads).

My Delta, with its hand-fitted Bar-Sto barrel, really prefers the 155gn, 165gn & 200gn HPs for the tightest groups out to about 25yds, assuming I've done my part, but is generally less accurate with the 170gn/175gn & 180gn HP bullets.

The 135gn HPs fall somewhere in between. Go figure. :scrutiny:

Old Fuff
April 1, 2004, 02:51 PM
I think you probably have a good gun, but if hunting - especially deer hunting - is your intended purpose you might be better off with a revolver, rather then a pistol, in .41 or .44 Magnum with at least a 6 inch barrel. This will provide you with a longer sight radius and (likely) a better trigger pull. Both can be important factors with hand-held accuracy. While the revolver has six or so chambers to line up with the barrel, the barrel doesn't float in the slide, and both the sights and the barrel are fastened to the frame.

Christy Rutten
April 1, 2004, 03:53 PM
I have shot the remington umc 200gr, AE 180gr and Blazer 200gr all in a fmj and the hornady xtp 200 gr jhp. Out of the fmj's shot I thought the blazer being the cheapest priced shot the most consistent. The reason I'm practicing with the heavier loads is because I do plan to carry the 10 for deer this fall and many have told the that the 200gr xtp is the best option. I will not be doing any reloading so this seems to be my best route unless you guys think I can drop a white-tail at 40 yards with a lighter load that MIGHT shoot more accurately "open to all suggestions" I know that practice practice practice is crucial but can get quite spendy.

Not much said about a different front sight so for now I'll stick with whats on and spend that $50 on more rounds.

I've been just leaning on the tailgate of my truck w/o sandbags because I dont have any, Is this pretty important to sight it in with the sandbags?

caz223
April 1, 2004, 03:59 PM
Going from a full-size 10mm 1911 to a smith 657 with a 7 1/2" barrel would be an improvement, but not as much as you'd think.
The 10mm will get the job done, with a little practice.
Practice with paper plates out at the 50 yard line, and if you can keep all your shots on the plate, you'll be fine.
Now, a nice .41 magnum N-frame or ruger blackhawk with a trigger job and a red dot on it would be the best for hunting, but you gotta work with what ya got sometimes.
Never hunted with a 10mm pistol, not legal in my state (too much ammo capacity.).
I'm sure my smith 610 would suffice, but I've got better tools for the job.
Like that N-frame and blackhawk.
Don't forget to zero your sights to your hunting load at your optimum range before you get in the woods. You don't want to lose your game.

Dobe
April 1, 2004, 04:49 PM
Variation is additive; if you have 5" of wobble at 50 yards, and the gun would group 7" @ 50 yards from a machine rest, what you will actually shoot on average is a 12" group. Conversely, with the same 5" wobble at 50 yards, and a gun that would group 1.5" @ 50 yards , what you would actually shoot on average is a 6.5" group.

Sean,
I believe that the shooter will actually be shooting a 8 1/2" group. You don't really add the two together. The shooter's wobble is 5". On the perimeter of the 5" that then becomes the center of the next circle of measurement. In this case that would be the 7" group.

Since 3 1/2" of that group will overlap the 5" wobble, you are ok there. It is the 3 1/2" that extends beyond the wobble that becomes the additional cause of accuracy problems.

Good Shoot'n

Dobe

Dobe
April 1, 2004, 05:08 PM
If you consider that you must get within 35 yards of your target, you should not have a problem. Bow hunters do this, and many of us have taken white tails at this close-a-range.

I will be taking my Kimber 1911 .45 ACP this year. I will be sporting a 7mm-08 rifle as a primary, but if the close shot presents itself, I will take it with my 1911. This has worked for me in the past. Just remember your limitations. You are not shooting a scoped T/C.

My preference for a hunting front sight is that it be "slightly" luminous. Many deer are killed in lower light conditions. I personally do not like flashy colored sights, but a small dot can help in low light (early morning / late evening shots).

Good hunting

Dobe

Gunhead
April 1, 2004, 05:45 PM
"Do you guys think I can improve my longer range shooting if I put on a front night sight tritium which would would have the .180 dot instead of just the big block in front."

Forget about the paint and the tritium sights, none of these will make you a better shooter. You can improve your long range accuracy by - guess what - shooting!

You can use any big bore handgun for this purpose (even a 9x19mm) to save some money on the ammo. Start training at 27 yards only, and if you can put 3-5 rounds into a 2-6" circle offhand consistently you can move back further... The 10mm is a flat shooter so you will have no accuracy problem at 50 yards after you learn how to keep your groups tight at 27 yards.

Sean Smith
April 1, 2004, 06:22 PM
I believe that the shooter will actually be shooting a 8 1/2" group. You don't really add the two together. The shooter's wobble is 5". On the perimeter of the 5" that then becomes the center of the next circle of measurement. In this case that would be the 7" group.

See the attached picture. :)

The small black circle is the point of aim. The large dark green circle is the shooter's wobble about that point of aim. The small green circle represents where, in a worst-case example, the shooter actually lets off the shot. The light green circle in turn represents the gun's dispersion at that point. Hence the distance of a worst-case shot from the point of aim is 2.5+3.5=6". 2 worst-case shots in opposite directions give you a group size of 12".

And yes, the picture is not to scale. :p

Small point: when measuring a real group, you'd subract the caliber of the bullet from the group size. That is, you measure the group center-to-center from the most distant 2 points, rather than edge-to-edge.

Dobe
April 1, 2004, 07:04 PM
Sean,
I like your diagram. But actually, it does prove my point. In order to have a 12" group (outside to outside). The shooter would need to wobble more.

The extreme of the wobble is at the end of the radius. Assuming this is where the trigger breaks, the remainder of the inaccuracy (that wihich belongs soley to the firearm), will be dispersed within a theoretical circle (the seven inches). That puts half of the group in the area of wobble, and the other half outside.

Therefore, the greatest possible inaccuracy would be the area of wobble plus 1/2 of the inaccuracy of the firearm.


Thanks,

Dobe

Dobe
April 2, 2004, 07:51 AM
Sean,
As soon as I posted my last post, I realized my error. My wife was dragging me away toward an evening event. Therefore, I had no time to correct myself after the post, until this morning.

My error was that I wasn't seeing the forest for the trees. What I described is correct. The problem is that a group is a collection of shots, not a series of isolated events.

What you posed is correct. The wobble would take the shooter from one extreme to another over a course of a string of shots. This leads to what you have already stated: (area of wobble + area of inaccuracy of firearm) = total area of inaccuracy.

Thanks for the education.

Sean Smith
April 2, 2004, 10:01 AM
No problem. I confuse myself all the time. :D

The bad thing about an inaccurate weapon is that you can get lucky, and get a small group out of it, then get unlucky and get a HUGE group out of it, and you can't tell how much of the variation is you, and how much is the dang gun's inconsistency. All you know for sure is that, averaged over time, your accuracy sucks and is inconsistent as hell.

Christy Rutten
April 2, 2004, 03:04 PM
shawn and dobe should exchange emails with each other!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BUSTER
April 2, 2004, 09:07 PM
sean & dobe great posts that stuff is not in chapter 1, thanks for the lesson:D

Christy Rutten
April 2, 2004, 10:53 PM
hey buster do you have anything to say about the topic or are ya just kissin up to the fella's

Christy Rutten
April 2, 2004, 10:58 PM
By the way whats it like in purgatory you fruit:fire: :banghead: :evil: :cuss:

BUSTER
April 3, 2004, 07:40 AM
"christy"
i dont need to kiss up to anyone i thought they were informative posts and said so , fyi purgatory is between heaven and hell. i personally dont have to ask advice on how to shoot a gun past the 7yd mark:rolleyes:

Stephen A. Camp
April 3, 2004, 09:03 AM
Name calling is against the rules here at the High Road.

I have never understood why some feel this is necessary.

I do understand how to lock a thread.

I strongly suggest that it stop.

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