9x19 vs .45ACP visual


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Glock19Fan
February 15, 2014, 12:01 AM
Im not sure if I have posted this before but I figured with new members and with many that dont visit everyday this could be interesting for them to see. If its the wrong forum, I apologize.

These are some blocks that I shot a little over a year ago. I wanted to see side by side how my two favorite full size carry handguns did concerning terminal ballistics. The handguns used were a Rock Island 5' 1911 .45ACP and a Glock 19 4" 9x19mm. I tested two different types of ammo. In the first test I compared FMJ in each caliber (124 grain NATO and 230 grain WWB) and in the second test I compared Speer Gold Dot JHPs (124 grain +P and 230 grain +P).

This picture shows a single 9mm FMJ and .45 FMJ entering from the right. Both passed completely through. The 9mm is the one on the bottom.
http://i.imgur.com/LoaM50P.jpg

This picture shows a single 9mm GD fired from the left, and a single .45 GD fired from the right.
http://i.imgur.com/lsmkbeK.jpg

You can draw your own conclusions on the test, but I just thought it would be interesting for people to see side by side a somewhat fair comparison of the two most popular handgun calibers. I carry either with confidence, occasionally with a P32. :)

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zoom6zoom
February 15, 2014, 01:27 AM
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g180/zoom6zoom/gun%20stuff/guns008.jpg~original

LKLive13
February 15, 2014, 01:52 AM
Nice comparison and those Gold Dot JHPs stayed together nicely.

Glock19Fan
February 15, 2014, 01:57 AM
Zoom- As you can see from the test above, recovered expanded bullet diameters dont always represent terminal performance. It is obvious from the block that the .45ACP expanded larger than the 9mm but it doesnt mean the damage it created was proportional.

And thanks LK, I have always prefered the Gold Dot and it has proven over and over again it is a great choice for self defense! :)

jimbo555
February 15, 2014, 11:20 AM
It looks like the 45 expanded more and penetrated deeper and you say that doesn't matter?

forindooruseonly
February 15, 2014, 12:01 PM
And it never ends.. Either the 9mm is fine, or it isn't. An ocean full of ballistic gelatin and all the expanded bullets in the world aren't going to get people to change their minds from one camp or another.

jimbo555
February 15, 2014, 12:23 PM
230 grains of 45 caliber bullets make me feel warm and fuzzy. If 9mm works for you i'm fine with that.:)

stogiegila
February 15, 2014, 12:26 PM
Nice pics..Thanks

All I know is that I wouldn't want to get shot with either :scrutiny:

MCgunner
February 15, 2014, 12:42 PM
I carry either with confidence,

Yup, me too. The .45 is for the belt, the 9 is for the pocket. It carries 11 rounds, so it carries more firepower than my .45 on the belt. That's the 9s best quality. I don't consider terminal performance of the two worth the argument.

vamo
February 15, 2014, 01:06 PM
For such similar looking results i'll take the one I can shoot for half the price thank you very much. Flame on :evil:.

HellTrain
February 15, 2014, 01:15 PM
I like and own both but prefer a 357 sig. Different strokes for different folks

Strahley
February 15, 2014, 01:27 PM
http://www.policeone.com/police-heroes/articles/6199620-Why-one-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/?source=newsletter&nlid=6198334

strambo
February 15, 2014, 01:28 PM
The point is the terminal performance is very similar and comparing a G19 to a 1911, you can create 2 separate 9mm wound channels for every 1 .45 ACP which is also a factor.

I like both calibers and feel well armed with either (at least as well-armed as I'll ever feel with just a handgun instead of a carbine).

Skribs
February 15, 2014, 01:40 PM
Well no wonder the .45 performed better, it was shot out of a five-foot barrel! Ignoring that typo ;), the barrel was still 25% longer for the .45.

I am not surprised by this at all. The .45 is bigger and has more momentum. It imparts more recoil onto you, so it makes sense it would have more energy to cause damage in the target.

The 9-vs-45 debate has never been which one is stronger. It's about the trade-offs. 9 rounds vs. 7 in a 1911. 17 vs 13 in a Glock. 17 vs 7 in a comfortable carry platform for those who can handle double-stack 9 and single-stack 45. Cost of ammo. Recoil and how fast you can shoot again (or if that's a factor). These are the benefits of the 9mm, which are not shown in this test.

That said, the benefits of the .45 are shown in this test.

CDW4ME
February 15, 2014, 02:17 PM
In other testing...

45 HST appears to cause more damage to the gel than 9mm HST and the recovered diameter is more impressive:

http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWW2Y-IZpyE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COVoBwR1oww

MCgunner
February 15, 2014, 02:18 PM
I carry the REAL .357 a lot, the .357 magnum loaded with a HOT 140 grain Speer JHP. Beats either of these from its 3" barrel, 600 ft lbs. Does have more recoil, but I'm a big boy and used to it. :D

I am not surprised by this at all. The .45 is bigger and has more momentum. It imparts more recoil onto you, so it makes sense it would have more energy to cause damage in the target.

Actually, +P .45ACP is capable of 100 ft lbs more energy, nearly, than is +P 9. Energy is about the same in standard pressure loads. The 9 is available in a LOT handier firearms than is the .45. I mean there's the XDS, but it holds what, 3 rounds or something? :D

Stevie-Ray
February 15, 2014, 02:20 PM
I'd likely be upset if I couldn't have both.;)

jimbo555
February 15, 2014, 04:58 PM
Xds holds 5+1 in 45acp. 7+1 with extended mag.

eldon519
February 15, 2014, 05:41 PM
For whatever reason, 124 became the 9mm typical weight and 230 for the .45. If you compare 147 to 230, 124 to 200, and 115 to 185, the SD for each is nearly identical and the penetration depths are very similar for each.

Marlin 45 carbine
February 15, 2014, 05:59 PM
it's all good.
sort of apples vs oranges
not to hijack but some years back I shot .357 rn, 9mm fmj and .45acp fmj straight on at a piece of 18ga sheet welded each side to a couple of sharpened 1x1" L driven into the ground. around 30'. the .45 dimpled the steel deeper makeing a small crack in a couple of hits.
the .357 was just perceptibly deeper dimple than the 9mm.
the .45 was out of a 5" colt the other were from 4" bbls.

rswartsell
February 15, 2014, 05:59 PM
Now look my friend,

Your screen-name advertises your bias for all to see. I believe the agenda was set before the gel in the blocks. Are there some very effective 9mm loads available now? A resounding yes.

Do you need to somehow convince the masses of 9mm superiority? Are you OK if some of us prefer .45 ACP and stay with it?

Glock19Fan
February 15, 2014, 08:07 PM
Eldon519 For whatever reason, 124 became the 9mm typical weight and 230 for the .45.

The reason is those are the standard weights for each caliber as designated by the military as well as many law enforcement agencies. Thats why I did this comparison in those weights.

rswartsell Your screen-name advertises your bias for all to see. I believe the agenda was set before the gel in the blocks. Are there some very effective 9mm loads available now? A resounding yes.


Im not sure if you are serious, or if you read my OP but the advantage here was given to the .45ACP with a 25% longer barrel. There is no agenda, I like them both. Just a fair comparison of two commong loads in two common platforms.

Skribs I am not surprised by this at all. The .45 is bigger and has more momentum. It imparts more recoil onto you, so it makes sense it would have more energy to cause damage in the target.


It is all up to individual interpretation, but IMO the 9mm did more damage in both tests. The permanant cavity is wider and extends slightly further.

kilibreaux
February 15, 2014, 10:32 PM
You can present data that show the two cartridges deliver identical terminal performance and the bias of individuals will still prevent them from accepting it.

This is WHY the only true and scientific method of determining ballistic performance is "kinetic energy" because it ignores all the "pseudo-science" that has been introduced over the years.

In Milspec loadings the .45ACP and 9mm are so close to identical in terms of kinetic energy as to be statistically indistinquishable despite the fact that one achieves its numbers by virtue of a heavy slug and the other by virtue of a fast moving bullet. In non-expanding form the 9mm will easily penetrate much farther due to having less total surface area, but this means even a non-expanding .45ACP is imparting more KE into the subject per unit of time.

Now, if you start deviating from the "standard" loadings things change quite a bit. The 9x19 is capable of being boosted to around 500 lb-ft of KE which is right at the base of the .357 magnum and equal to it from short barrels. The .45ACP is capable of even greater kinetic energy - pushing 600 lb-ft of KE with so-called +P loads. Here it is worth noting that a +P .45ACP load is still a very LOW pressure load compared to the 9mm. For this reason the ACP can be loaded "hotter" still...which is where the .45 Super comes in and the .460 Rowland which is much like the .451 Detonics that paved the way for truly HOT .45 ACP based loads. But when we move into that energy level we move beyond the standard "1911."

Most so-called "performance" loads for either caliber fall around 400 lb-ft of KE - again, despite hyperbole as to which is superior to the other.

The fact is, if POWER were the deciding factor neither would cut the mustard compared to the 10mm, .41Mag, .44Mag nor even the .357Mag from a barrel over 4".

A good analogy is two Somalis arguing over who's boss of the stolen lifeboat, when just outside the door sits a Navy Destroyer with highly trained Seals peeking through optical sights at each Somalis' head...Between the two there is an "argument" as to who rules, but OUTSIDE the two, neither is anything special.

Having said this I own quite a few 9mm's and .45 ACP 1911's and I absolutely LOVE the feel and sense of "comfort" just grasping a 1911 brings to one's personal harmony with the Universe. I also "love" the 9mm because it's inexpensive and just ONE will take care of business which gives it the edge in terms of being able to carry a LOT of rounds for little weight.

chuckpro
February 15, 2014, 10:43 PM
I carry the REAL .357 a lot, the .357 magnum loaded with a HOT 140 grain Speer JHP. Beats either of these from its 3" barrel, 600 ft lbs. Does have more recoil, but I'm a big boy and used to it. :D



Actually, +P .45ACP is capable of 100 ft lbs more energy, nearly, than is +P 9. Energy is about the same in standard pressure loads. The 9 is available in a LOT handier firearms than is the .45. I mean there's the XDS, but it holds what, 3 rounds or something? :D

I agree and carry the real .357 in a wheel gun or a real 10mm load in semi. If you are a ballistic gelatin or Foot Pownd junkie these are better cartridges. Or better yet lets talk about a .44 or 500 s&W. :)

In reality shot placement is the most important thing and even then unless you sever the spinal cord, nothing is a guarantee to immediate stop a threat.

chuckpro
February 15, 2014, 10:55 PM
kilibreaux

I think we were typing at the same time. I like the 45 and while i don't carry my 1911 much i do carry a 45 and like the comfort of it. The 9mm will get the job done and enjoy the higher capacity. I love shooting my 500 and .44 but they are not very practical for a defensive tool on thin skinned attackers. ( is that Politically correct?)

481
February 15, 2014, 10:56 PM
Im not sure if I have posted this before but I figured with new members and with many that dont visit everyday this could be interesting for them to see. If its the wrong forum, I apologize.

These are some blocks that I shot a little over a year ago. I wanted to see side by side how my two favorite full size carry handguns did concerning terminal ballistics. The handguns used were a Rock Island 5' 1911 .45ACP and a Glock 19 4" 9x19mm. I tested two different types of ammo. In the first test I compared FMJ in each caliber (124 grain NATO and 230 grain WWB) and in the second test I compared Speer Gold Dot JHPs (124 grain +P and 230 grain +P).

This picture shows a single 9mm FMJ and .45 FMJ entering from the right. Both passed completely through. The 9mm is the one on the bottom.
http://i.imgur.com/LoaM50P.jpg

This picture shows a single 9mm GD fired from the left, and a single .45 GD fired from the right.
http://i.imgur.com/lsmkbeK.jpg

You can draw your own conclusions on the test, but I just thought it would be interesting for people to see side by side a somewhat fair comparison of the two most popular handgun calibers. I carry either with confidence, occasionally with a P32. :)

Looking at the test block that had the 9mm and .45 FMJs shot through it, I would have thought that the .45ACP FMJ made the bottom -and more significant- permanent cavity. The 9mm's permanent cavity is slightly larger/wider all the way across the block especially at the left side where it appears to have tumbled.

Both the .45 and 9mm JHP's produced nearly identically sized permanent cavities which is all the more impressive given the improvements of the last 30 years.

Thanks for the illuminating test.

CoalTrain49
February 16, 2014, 12:43 AM
Looks about the same to me.

It only really matters to the military, everyone else shoots what they want.

kilibreaux
February 16, 2014, 06:00 AM
Chuckpro: I think you're on the right track. My everyday carry gun is a Glock M20SF loaded with Underwood 155 grain 10mm that I have personally chronographed at just over 800 lb-ft of kinetic energy! They are simply BEYOND anything a 9mm or .45ACP can even pretend to deliver, more powerful than any .357 Mag from a 4" or shorter barrel, and basically running neck and neck with a short barrel .44 Magnum! Plus, the G20 carries SIXTEEN of them compared to just SIX from a revoler!

While it takes a bit of dedication to carry concealled on the person, I often carry an S&W M500 Magnum 4" with speed loaders in my car "just in case." My "logic" is simple...when a human is hit with just ONE round of 7.62x51 they GO DOWN and the damage to tissue must be SEEN to be believed! Well, the M500 - even in 4" barrel delivers 2,000 lb-ft of kinetic energy with a 440 gr. (over one ounce of lead) hardcast SWC that equates directly to a hit from a high powered rifle! While people can and have taken multiple hits of 9mm and .45ACP and were still walking and talking, just ONE solid torso hit from a .500 Magnum IS INDEED a "one-shot-stop" with no BS hyperbole.

jimbo555
February 16, 2014, 07:57 AM
Even if you miss with that .500 magnum, the wind should cause a knockdown! Seriously, any caliber that has enough penetration to hit the vitals will work!

Lj1941
February 16, 2014, 09:09 AM
If is isn't broken,don't fix it. I own both. The 45 is more accurate in my hands so I carry that more often.

Carne Frio
February 16, 2014, 09:35 AM
I have both, but prefer the 10mm.
http://24.media.tumblr.com/436291aeb9672e29b5b5caec8d6f4a66/tumblr_morcmwP9XU1s6y8k6o1_r1_400.gif

Robert
February 16, 2014, 09:40 AM
Why is it this subject makes otherwise normal shooters lose their minds? And then we get the whole "real men shoot 10mm" folks chiming in and well, we are done. Look, shoot what works best for you and don't worry what the internet thinks. As long as you are safe and capable I don't care what you carry.

If you enjoyed reading about "9x19 vs .45ACP visual" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!