Need M1 Garand inspection


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aggiejet
February 23, 2014, 01:00 PM
I recently started shooting my M1 Garand that I got from the DCM (now CMP) back in the early 90's. (yes I know, but please don't hate me. better late than never) I am having problems with accuracy and loading clips.

My accuracy issue can be quantified by saying I can't repeatedly hit a 12" target from a bench rest at 100 yards and no groupings whatsoever. Spraying bullets everywhere.( I am shooting reloads of 150 gr Sierra with 50 gr of 4064.)

So I took to cleaning the barrel last weekend. I am using Tipton's bore solvent by alternating soaked patches and nylon bore brush. I never got a soaked patch to run thru clean, so I gave up, dry patched the bore and coated with Hoppes 9 oil. I returned again yesterday and reengaged bore cleaning operations. For several passes with Tipton soaked patches, a LOT of blue was showing up on the patches. Then later, only lots of black stuff, no blue. After about two hours or so, I again gave up, dry patched the barrel and coated with oil.

I tried visually inspecting the barrel for some reference. I can see crud (rust?) in the barrel still, and it doesn't look shiny like the barrel of the two Savage bolt action rifles I cleaned in that same manner. However, due to design, it is a lot harder to get light into the Garand barrel. Another curious observation is that while I slowly withdraw the cleaning rod with a brush attached to the rod, the rod will rotate slowly for about the first 1/2 of the barrel, (starting at the chamber) and then stop rotating the last 1/2 of travel till the brush exits the muzzle. i.e. It appears the brush can't bite the grooves the last part of the barrrel. I can physically see the grooves with visual inspection in the last portion of the barrel.

So, based on that, I am thinking I would like an expert to look this gun and barrel over. I need to know is the barrel ruined, and why are the clips so hard to load.

Can anybody recommend a M1 expert? I live in NE Oklahoma, and feel like this is beyond the scope of a a local gunsmith, unless someone can tell me different. I can drive it to them or mail it I guess, although I am hesitant to do that.

Thanks for your time

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Kp321
February 23, 2014, 03:18 PM
The bad news is it sounds like the barrel is toast. M1 barrels suffer from cleaning rod wear since they are cleaned from the muzzle. If you can find someone with a muzzle wear gauge, see how bad it really is. Some barrels can be restored to reasonable accuracy by recrowning.
The good news is there are scads of good to new barrels available and they normally will index and headspace correctly.

aggiejet
February 23, 2014, 03:47 PM
What does that mean, "cleaning rod wear"? I am new to shooting and cleaning rifles. I see at Garand Gear they recommend a cable system (by OTIS) to clean the bore to prevent what you said. I am just curious what damage you are doing with a rod?

Thanks

BBBBill
February 23, 2014, 06:22 PM
The Army taught us to clean, clean, clean and then clean some more. Since the M-1 is cleaned from the muzzle, the side of the cleaning rod would drag on the edge of the crown. Steel on steel. Wear was inevitable. I used the M-1 and M-14 in ROTC, never after I got in service, but we cleaned them the same way the active duty guys did. I'll bet many barrels were ruined by cleaning rod wear. A bore guide to keep the rod from touching is a good idea.

dfariswheel
February 23, 2014, 06:53 PM
Bore solvents need soak time to work, and you may not be giving it enough.
One mistake people often make is to put solvent in the bore, run a brush through then wipe it out too soon.
Give it time to work.

Options are:
Buy a more aggressive bore cleaner like Sweet's 7.62.
These are faster and more aggressive at getting fouling out, but you can't leave them in the bore too long or it may damage it. Sweet's is a max of 30 minutes. There are other brands of stronger solvents.

Read the label on the Tipton's solvent on how long it can be allowed to soak. If it's safe, just wet the bore thoroughly and let it soak for a few hours.
Some solvents can be left in indefinitely, so you can let soak over night.
After soaking, wet a clean patch and run it straight through the bore and out the end.
Check it for blue copper stains.
If you see any and the solvent allows it, just let it soak longer and run another patch later. Repeat until you start to get patches with no stains.
If you use brass cleaning rod tips don't mistake a little staining left by the rod tip.

Note that "pumping" patches up and down the bore will leave gray or black stains on the patch. This is not fouling, it's metal stains left by the patch rubbing the steel.
To see how this works, use a cloth to briskly rub a piece of bare aluminum and see the metal stains.

Instead of a solvent, buy a jar of JB Bore Paste. This is a special super mild non-embedding abrasive developed to deep clean badly fouled barrels.
Bench rest shooters use JB, so it won't harm the barrel.
You can combine the JB with Kroil to do an even better job.
Buy either or both from Brownell's.

Forget the synthetic bore brush. Buy bronze, these work much better but don't last long so buy several.

Of you're screwing the bore brush tightly on the rod, what's probably happening is the brush is unscrewing itself within the first half of the barrel, then the brush is rotating and following the rifling instead of the rod rotating.
Most shooters don't screw the brush on tight just so it can more easily follow the rifling.
For a brush not to follow the rifling, the barrel would have to be worn almost completely smooth, which just doesn't happen.
Barrels wear at the throat in front of the chamber, and at the muzzle if the rod is allowed to rub on it not on the actual rifling.

To protect the barrel from wear, buy a ONE-PIECE stainless steel or carbon fiber rod, and buy a cone-shaped brass muzzle guide to keep the rod centered in the muzzle.

Orlando
February 26, 2014, 08:04 AM
Sounds as though you need a barrel replacement not a inspection.
I would guess barrel is pitted, tahts why it wont cleanup

Laphroaig
February 26, 2014, 08:49 AM
If you can wait for a month or so, the CMP games is going to be held at the Oklahoma City Gun Club from April 9 to 13. If you can, go to the range and find the CMP trailer. Their armorers will check it out for you. They are as knowledgeable as you can get when it comes to Garands, and free to boot.

http://odcmp.com/Competitions/CMPGames_OK.htm

Laphroaig

carbine85
February 26, 2014, 03:07 PM
Besides a good and proper cleaning I would try different ammo. A Garand with a worn and dirty bore is capable of better accuracy.
Has anyone else shoot it for comparison?
If you can see defined rifling and a bullet fits tightly into the muzzle it should shoot better.

MutinousDoug
February 26, 2014, 04:06 PM
Your description of your barrel does not lead me to believe you have alot going for you there but you should consider that there is more to Garand accuracy than barrel condition.
I have two Garands; one a DCM gun and the second a CMP one. As received, neither would shoot any better than yours: 10-12" at 100 yds.
I had the DCM gun glass bedded, front end unitized and kept the 1945 barrel. Following that treatment, it shot 2 MoA and 5000+ rounds later, will still hold the 10 ring of an NRA target although the throat erosion is over 4.
The Second gun I only replaced the fencepost of a stock with a new manufacture, well fitting stock, legal for the CMP vintage rifle games and it now shoots less than 2 MoA with its 1954 LMR barrel.
I would not be surprised if it were possible to improve your groups at 100 yds to half what it is now without touching the barrel. Conversely, installing a brand new Criterion barrel without looking into stock, op rod and gas cylinder fit, may only improve your accuracy by the same amount.
Good luck, your gun can be made to shoot.

aggiejet
March 2, 2014, 04:39 PM
Thanks to everyone for all the info. I will definitely take my rifle down to OKC in April and have the CMP have a look.

I am also interested in the glass bedding process. I will try to come back to this thread and post my results and find out more about what I need to do to improve accuracy and what worked and what didn't work.

Thanks again,
Mark

Orlando
March 2, 2014, 04:45 PM
Just remember the Garand is a battle rifle, while it can be made to be very acurate dont expect it to be a match rifle.
Dont even waste time or money on bedding anything until you get the barrel changed.
Dont take this wrong but most shooters wont notice the difference between a Match conditioned Garand and a standard garand off the rack
The best thing you can do to increase accuracy on a good condition Garand is feed it good handloads and practice, practice, practice

aggiejet
March 2, 2014, 07:21 PM
I am hoping to be able to shoot some metal silhouettes at the range at 200 and 300 meters. And maybe shoot some coyotes sometimes.

I will pursue the barrel first. I am concerned that it is not in good shape. i also understand I need some work on marksmanship on the range.

Thanks

triggerman770
March 4, 2014, 04:55 AM
get the Otis system. If you must use a rod get the muzzle guard that aligns and centers the rod. put the rod thru with no attachment then install the attachment(brush;patch puller) where the rod exits the chamber then pull it through

Reloadron
March 5, 2014, 08:26 PM
For want of a ME (Muzzle Erosion) TE (Throat Erosion) gauge and while far from an accurate means to measure muzzle erosion a bullet will at least give you an idea.

http://www.bearblain.com/images/Bullet%20Test.png

This can also be done with a live round but just a bullet works well. Helps to know where the ojive of the bullet is. You can see the obvious difference between the left and right barrels. If the muzzle swallows your bullet you can pretty much assume severe muzzle erosion. Again this is far from the results of using a good gauge.

Ron

aggiejet
March 6, 2014, 08:52 PM
That is good info. Thanks for the input. I read a similar post somewhere, but really didn't know what to make of it. Your pictures help a lot explaining what that means. I'll check mine out. Thanks

rabid wombat
March 16, 2014, 06:09 PM
HI Aggiejet,

Though not local, I would use one of the following:

http://www.warbirdscustomguns.com/M1%20Garand.htm

196212

Tim set up an M-1 for me for Garand shoots. Though I never shot competition, the rifle is great. I feel it can shoot a possible, even if I can't

http://www.dgrguns.com/

I have read a lot about Dean. He does good work, from what I have read. I would have no qualms about having Dean work on my rifle.

http://www.nationalmatcharmory.com/

I would really like to have Eric work on some of my rifles.

Best,
Rabid

p.s. I am guessing you went to A&M, were in the Corp, and a zoomie or squid - when did you graduate?

4v50 Gary
March 17, 2014, 07:54 PM
I'd check the crown. If it's damaged, therein lies the problem.

The second thing is cleaning the bore. Get a bore guide so you don't damage the crown.

Glass bedding only enhances what a gun will do. If the barrel is bad, you're not going to get much improvement.

As for difficulty in loading the clips, someone could have clamped the lower legs of the receiver in a vise, compressing them too much. You have to get a micrometer to measure their distance and then compare your measurements against that of a Garand that the clips feed easily.

Orlando
March 20, 2014, 07:19 PM
As far as hard to load enblocs its not bent receiver legs, if it was you couldnt install the trigger group
Possible broke clip ejector spring or timing issue, 99% of the time its bad enblocs. Whats stamped on the bottom of them?

aggiejet
March 30, 2014, 01:17 PM
Orlando

I have 6 clips. two marked (LBM) one marked (BR-W 6) and three marked (BR-W 3) although the last group is very hard to read, even under a magnifying glass.

I have used the first two groups the most, which is not much. The base of the clips are scarred/scratched from just a little use.

Right now, I just loaded 8 rounds in the first group clip and 8 in the last group. The ones marked BR-W 3 seem to fit into magazine easier and there is a lot less scarring/scratching on the base of the clip.

Any input into what I should be looking for when buying clips?

Orlando
March 30, 2014, 01:28 PM
Probably BLM not LBM, anyways they are all USGI and "should" be OK
Its hard to diagnose the issues you are having online. If I had the rifle in hand I'm sure it would be faily easy to figure whats going on.
At this point all I can suggest is send it to a gunsmithwho specializes in Garands, dont waste your time or money on a local gunsmith unless he specializes in them.
I suggest sending it here http://shuffsparkerizing.com/services/

aggiejet
March 30, 2014, 10:10 PM
I am going to a CMP event in Oklahoma on april 9th, hopefully can get a CMP armorer to give me a little guidance. thanks

aggiejet
April 13, 2014, 11:52 AM
Just a follow up and end of action report:

Took my M1 to the Oklahoma Games, a CMP sponsored match, and a CMP armorer looked at my rifle. The head space was unsafe and the barrel was no good. I bought a new criterion barrel on site for $180 and it was installed the next day by the armorer.

Will not get a chance to go shoot this weekend, but I am fairly sure this will solve my accuracy problems. I'll report back.

Special thanks to Laphroig for pointing me in the right direction.

As a side note, got to watch the GSM match thursday afternoon. Looked like something I might do. My friend who went with me bought a CMP Special M1 that day also. So we might start shooting in those matches. See ya there.

Bexar
April 13, 2014, 02:25 PM
The "PASS" precision for a Garand to be accepted into service was a 4 inch group at a hundred yards I believe. Also...cotton patches can wear a muzzle over time and more damage is done to modern sporting arms by taking down and cleaning them than just leaving them alone. How was the timing on the follower...clip...operating guide...stock... bullet guide etc.? The CMP armorers should have checked the timing with a tool they should have had. There are a lot of things that can be done to the Garand as mentioned to bring it into an inch or possibly even better precision and many of the things, especially glass bedding, will work towards that. Simple lubrication in the right place sometimes can help that. Good luck and keep us updated.

Bexar
April 13, 2014, 02:34 PM
Also...what serial number range do you have? Early war Garands sometimes had their receivers drilled too far into the receiver and cut the tops off of some of the receiver follower guides. This affected the 7th round stoppage more than anything but your clip insertion issues does fall into that area of question.

M1Newbie
April 14, 2014, 09:38 AM
Went with aggiejet to the match and bought a high serial number M1. I am unable to get round 7 to feed from the clip. The first 6 feed perfect. Tried 2 different clips and the same result. Any ideas would be appreciated. Thanks

Bexar
April 14, 2014, 11:52 AM
Infamous 7th round stoppage. Load your rounds in the clip to where the first round and the last are on the left. Check the internal receiver guide rails and make sure they have not been drilled through from the barrel end of the receiver during manufacture. (Not likely at all) Your bullet guide could be bad. I'll post some pictures later...I have a momma mission to do.

What's the make rifle and what is the stock make? Could be a bind in the trigger group or worn trigger group lugs.

We won't see you for a week if you do a "7th round stoppage" search on the Internet. :p Opinions will range from not possible to not fixable. Also what exactly happens when you say it won't feed?

dprice3844444
April 14, 2014, 01:55 PM
https://www.standardpartsllc.com/productcart/pc/viewcategories.asp?idCategory=14

Reloadron
April 14, 2014, 03:05 PM
Went with aggiejet to the match and bought a high serial number M1. I am unable to get round 7 to feed from the clip. The first 6 feed perfect. Tried 2 different clips and the same result. Any ideas would be appreciated. Thanks
What exactly happens? Does the 6th round eject and the bolt comes forward passing over the 7th round or does the bolt catch the 7th round but the bullet point misses the chamber and jams.

Were both clips you tried the same manufacturer?

There are a few possible causes one of which goes back to the early days development of the rifle and I seriously doubt you have that problem.

Give this thread a read (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=683759). Would the failure shown in the first image be what you had?

Also, as to orientation of the ammunition in the loading clips.
http://www.bearblain.com/images/Loaded%20Clips.png

While my rifles never seemed to care some say the clip must be loaded as seen in the above image. Note the orientation of the cartridges with respect to the "bumps" on the clip.

Some people have mentioned problems using the Greek HXP loading clips, or certain HXP loading clips. Personally I never used the HXP clips or ammunition so I can't say if a HXP clip could be your problem.

Ron

Bexar
April 14, 2014, 03:38 PM
What exactly happens? Does the 6th round eject and the bolt comes forward passing over the 7th round or does the bolt catch the 7th round but the bullet point misses the chamber and jams.

Were both clips you tried the same manufacturer?

There are a few possible causes one of which goes back to the early days development of the rifle and I seriously doubt you have that problem.

Give this thread a read (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=683759). Would the failure shown in the first image be what you had?

Also, as to orientation of the ammunition in the loading clips.
http://www.bearblain.com/images/Loaded%20Clips.png

While my rifles never seemed to care some say the clip must be loaded as seen in the above image. Note the orientation of the cartridges with respect to the "bumps" on the clip.

Some people have mentioned problems using the Greek HXP loading clips, or certain HXP loading clips. Personally I never used the HXP clips or ammunition so I can't say if a HXP clip could be your problem.

Ron

Good advice...
However...I disagree with the round configuration of the clips shown. Col. Hatcher, the director of Springfield Armory during development of the Garand and later the President of the NRA, specifically demanded that the M-! clips not be loaded with the leading rounds on the right. As stated above...there are also reports that some HXP clips and HXP ammo were manufactured with different specs of the original design and contribute to seventh round stoppage. I'm not an expert and don't imply that I am; however, the leading round on the left was told to me by a National Match armorer for the M-1.

Bexar
April 14, 2014, 03:45 PM
Went with aggiejet to the match and bought a high serial number M1. I am unable to get round 7 to feed from the clip. The first 6 feed perfect. Tried 2 different clips and the same result. Any ideas would be appreciated. Thanks
What manufacture rounds are you using?

Reloadron
April 14, 2014, 04:06 PM
Good advice...
However...I disagree with the round configuration of the clips shown. Col. Hatcher, the director of Springfield Armory during development of the Garand and later the President of the NRA, specifically demanded that the M-! clips not be loaded with the leading rounds on the right. As stated above...there are also reports that some HXP clips and HXP ammo were manufactured with different specs of the original design and contribute to seventh round stoppage. I'm not an expert and don't imply that I am; however, the leading round on the left was told to me by a National Match armorer for the M-1.
My understanding has always been...
the first step is to verify that the clip is loaded properly. All the cartridges loaded should be the same height with the base of the cartridge fully seated in the clip. As a general rule you want the top round to be on the side of the clip with the indexed bump (Shown in my image clip labeled Correct). This positions the top round such that when right handed shooters press the clip in the round is closer to the right hand. The clip can be loaded either way without issue.

The clip being loaded either way has been my experience with my rifles. Any idea what Hatcher's reasoning or logic was?

As to the HXP clips? Beats me as I mentioned I don't have any. I have seen a few images where the clips weren't to the same specification as you mentioned but have zero experience with it.

Also, before I forget to the original poster on the problem rifle. Congratulations on your new to you M1 Garand. If you bought the gun at the match through the CMP they will make good on any issues and are a pleasure to deal with. You may want to give them a call.

Ron

Orlando
April 14, 2014, 04:07 PM
I suppose you mean your rifle is short stroking and not picking up the 7th rd?
Very simple fix , replace the op rod spring with one from Orion 7 and make sure rifle is properly greased. Your issue will go away
Also make sure your gas screw is tight, not loose or cracked. AS 1/4 inch drive extension on a ratchet fits perfectly
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f197/Garandlover/misc/MVC-003F.jpg (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/Garandlover/media/misc/MVC-003F.jpg.html)
I own 20 Garands and it makes absolutly no difference which way they are loaded
There is no such thing as HXP or Greek enblocs. Greek HXP comes loaded on USGI , French (sf) and German (JMO) Enblocs. Some report issues with JMO and SF enblocs.
All my garands will work perfectly with any of these enblocs

Bexar
April 14, 2014, 05:14 PM
And what you have here Aggie is a micro example of what I said you would find on the Internet..."is to" "is not" ad nauseam.

And the seventh round stoppage is not an every day...every gun...every shooter problem.

Reload....Hatcher had experienced the SRS in the Garands and was concerned about it when he presented the guns for demonstration at the national level. He modified the follower so that no clips could be loaded with rounds on the right and all clips were to be loaded with the first and last round on the left. The rifles he used were early manufacture and may have had the yet undiscovered over boring of the receiver guide rails. Even experts, especially military experts, are subject to pass down information which may or may not be valid.

The Garand rifle gas system while not complex in design is subject to several tight tolerances including cartridge powder selection. As always when solving a problem always take the information you receive here or anywhere...compare similarities and then try the simplest/inexpensive possible solutions first. Everyone here has offered you good advice and the first thing I would try is the clip round configuration then work through it if that doesn't solve the issue. You will also find that Garands have a following that is almost if not a religion so enjoy your new adventure and welcome. I wish I had a gunsmith's crystal ball but I don't...let us know...it would be fair to say we are as interested as you are.

Orlando
April 14, 2014, 05:23 PM
I would guess 90% of CMP Garand forum posted problems are cured with a new op rod spring and being properly greased. The Op Rod spring does more than assist in cycling the bolt.
First thing I do on any Garand I get is a complete tear down to smallest part, properly grease and replace op rod spring.
If nothing else you will have a clean slate to start diagnosing your rifles issue

Reloadron
April 14, 2014, 07:36 PM
Bexar, thank you for the information regarding Hatcher.

Hopefully M1Newbie will read through this stuff and find a solution to his problem. M1Newbie, enjoy your new rifle and let all know what develops.

Orlando, your post regarding the op rod spring reminded me I am due (past due) to get a few on order.

Ron

aggiejet
April 14, 2014, 10:54 PM
M1Newbie and I bought the Greek HXP ammo the CMP was selling. I went out and shot my rifle Sunday. After a little sighting in and getting used to the rifle,from 200 yds, I put 3 inside a 9" diameter circle shooting off my elbows off a bench. really happy with my new barrell.

As a point of info, the gun M1Newbie bought was a CMP Special. I got the impression that the gun was within specs and had a new barrell and ops rod in it. I was surprised when he told me round 7 wouldn't feed. :cuss:
(As I understand it, round 6 fired, extracted, and bolt came forward on round 7, but jammed cartridge; didn't feed clean into the chamber.

I am learning a ton from you guys. Appreciate all the info and experience.

Bexar
April 14, 2014, 11:02 PM
M1Newbie and I bought the Greek HXP ammo the CMP was selling. I went out and shot my rifle Sunday. After a little sighting in and getting used to the rifle,from 200 yds, I put 3 inside a 9" diameter circle shooting off my elbows off a bench. really happy with my new barrell.

As a point of info, the gun M1Newbie bought was a CMP Special. I got the impression that the gun was within specs and had a new barrell and ops rod in it. I was surprised when he told me round 7 wouldn't feed. :cuss:
(As I understand it, round 6 fired, extracted, and bolt came forward on round 7, but jammed cartridge; didn't feed clean into the chamber.

I am learning a ton from you guys. Appreciate all the info and experience.
Welcome to you both and thanks for the update. Sounds like the CMP needs a phone call. Your description of the stoppage sounds like a textbook example. Please keep us posted.

M1Newbie
April 15, 2014, 08:54 AM
Thanks for all the info. The 7th round misses the feed ramp as in the link from reloadron. I'm not sure if i loaded the clips incorrect or not as the picture displays. I am shooting the Greek ammo and will replace op rod spring and try again. Gun is CMP Service Grade Special by H & R manufactured in 1955 or 56. Thanks again for all the info. I now have a place to start.

M1Newbie
April 15, 2014, 09:12 AM
Just got off the phone with the CMP and he said the new stock could be rubbing could be rubbing the ops rod. I will pull the stock and see if I can find anything. Will post what I find. The ops rod and spring are new.

Orlando
April 15, 2014, 04:54 PM
So this is a reparked rifle with new commercial barell and stock, correct?
Here are just a few things to look for
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=496002
If you havent tore the rifle down and properly greased it you need to. They normally come dry with no or little lubrication. Lack of grease with new park will cause short stroking

M1Newbie
April 15, 2014, 05:55 PM
Thanks for the link Orlando, I will take a look at that before I send her back to CMP. New stock, old barrell.

Orlando
April 15, 2014, 06:02 PM
OK, so this is the Special Grade that is all correct except for the stock/handguards ? I cant keep the Special Grades straight.
I did the write up in the link, somewhere I have more pics and info if you need them

saltydog452
April 15, 2014, 11:47 PM
Maybe I misread, but how can the 1st rd AND the last, be on the left side of the enbloc?

ty.

salty

saltydog452
April 15, 2014, 11:54 PM
salty

BBBBill
April 16, 2014, 09:46 AM
Maybe I misread, but how can the 1st rd AND the last, be on the left side of the enbloc?

Oops

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