Best CCW 9mm?


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caz223
April 1, 2004, 05:46 PM
I know this has been beaten to death, but I'm looking for the final addition to my auto collection.
Has to be a 9mm.
Has to be small, and concealable.
Target weight, around 20 ounces, unloaded.
Already have the PSP, looking for something else.
Right now, the CS9 tops the list, with the RAMI close behind, so the options are listed in order of my preferences, but I wanted a group opinion.
If you have a overpowering reason not to choose the CS9, please post it and try your best to put my butt in the know.

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Tango Sierra
April 1, 2004, 05:50 PM
I don't think any of your choices fit under the weight limit. Look at the Kahr P9 or the Glock G26

caz223
April 1, 2004, 05:53 PM
CS9= 20.8 oz.
9mm rami= 22 oz.
SIG 239= 25.2 oz., ok it's too heavy.
P7=28+ oz., too heavy, too. (But it wasn't really an option, I already have one.)

sensei
April 1, 2004, 05:53 PM
Kahr PM9

sensei

tc300mag1
April 1, 2004, 05:54 PM
From what ya got listed up there i would go with the HK

middy
April 1, 2004, 05:55 PM
Glock 19 :evil:

caz223
April 1, 2004, 06:03 PM
Choose carefully, I can only buy one, and the new DW bobtail 10mm commander, when it comes out.
Then I gotta start selling autos that I don't shoot (Too many cluttering up the safe.).
The CS9 is still looking like the best option, even though nobody has voted for one at this point.
If the H&K still wins, I don't have to buy anything, and have room for one last purchase.

caz223
April 1, 2004, 06:11 PM
As for the PM9, it's too light.
Wouldn't want to practice with it enough.
I don't like DAO triggers as a rule, so compact glocks are out, as are Kahrs. (Though I gotta admit, the Kahr DAO trigger is one of the best.)
The MK9 elite would be more to my taste, if a Kahr was an option.
Basically, the choices are the CZ or the smith.

sm
April 1, 2004, 06:24 PM
Umm, if I may - can I ask a question?
Have you shot any of these? Shot any others? Borrowed someone's with a conceal carry holster?

No offense, but I suggest and what I have done in assisting with new shooters, CCW students and all. Try before you buy. We had a variety of guns, holsters and such for folks to use at the range.

I have my thoughts...I don't pick guns for others. I listen to needs and if asked make honest suggestions,and have them shoot the gun. Budget comes to mind as well. Figure training, lessons, ammo, holster, good belt...

My criteria:
Gun must fit shooter in a reliable platform in the largest caliber the shooter can get quick accurate hits with ammo reliable in said gun.

Don't matter what it is , if the controls are awkward, the DA/SA trigger screw you up, you are afraid of SA, the recoil is to much to hit anything quickly... are you left handed, could you shoot this gun weak handed...only by trying before you buy can YOU really make that choice.

We never suggested a person buy a "first"gun when taking CCW class. Sadly and bad news when some Daddies, running buddies, boyfriends...etc. chose a gun ...all wrong for the student this happened a LOT!

NO offense, just a suggestion.

caz223
April 1, 2004, 06:30 PM
Well, I own the P7, but I don't like the small ejection port.
I shot a CS9 at the range, and it shot extremely well for me.
Fast hits were like second nature, pinky hanging off the mag well and all.
The rami is an offshoot of the CZ75, I own 2 of those, and I am still impressed with their ergonomics, but their small ejection port bothers me as well. I haven't shot a RAMI in 9mm, who has?
The SIG 239 is not really an option for me anymore, I just didn't want to offend SIG nuts by not including the 239 in the poll.
I have a 228, and love it. (All 26 ounces of it.)

Zundfolge
April 1, 2004, 06:33 PM
I'm sorry but thats a real incomplete poll without any Kahr.

If you think the PM9 is too small for CCW :confused: thats fine, but the K9 or P9 should still be up there.

caz223
April 1, 2004, 06:34 PM
Don't like the Kahrs, not gonna buy one, so why include the option in the poll?

Zundfolge
April 1, 2004, 06:41 PM
Oh I see ... you want the best from a narrow list.

I assumed you where trying to get a Best Overall.


Well from that list I'd say the P7 'cause it's nifty :p

bradvanhorn
April 1, 2004, 06:42 PM
Of your choices I would probably go with the P239.

Kel-Tec P-11 would be another possibility... It's my favorite small nine...

caz223
April 1, 2004, 06:51 PM
Looks like a P7 runaway so far....

VG
April 1, 2004, 07:36 PM
I am a SIG fan but found the P239 top heavy. Kahr need not apply due to customer service and quality concerns.

I bought a CS9 and have been extremely pleased with it. I also like the slightly larger and heavier but more "all-around" 3913.

The CS9 is extremely popular, and has been on the market for a long time so you can sometimes find one used. There are lots of good holsters available. I use the High Noon Down Under, with clip.

rde
April 1, 2004, 08:40 PM
CS9...perhaps think 'bout the 3913/908 series as well.

caz223
April 1, 2004, 09:00 PM
Had a 5904, (Kinda like the 908), didn't like it, it was a pain to field-strip, and the accuracy wasn't there for me.
Also, the end of the trigger was sharp or radiused wrong, and would pinch my finger between the trigger and the bottom of the guard.
That being said, that was a reliable, tough little gun.
I brought it to steel plate matches as a backup to my CZs.
If one CZ broke, I'd use the other.
If my main CZ jammed, or didn't like the ammo I was feeding it, I'd switch to the 5904.
That 5904 digested loads that were horribly out-of-spec, and seemed to thrive on it.
A 3913 is very much like the CS9, but I like the CS9 better, don't know why.
I like the mags on the CS9, and I understand that 3913 mags work fine in the CS9, if you don't like the pinkie-rest mags that come with the CS9.

gbelleh
April 1, 2004, 09:45 PM
Why don't you like small ejection ports? My CZ75 and P7 are 2 of my most reliable guns.

longeyes
April 1, 2004, 09:50 PM
Without the Glock 26 as a choice, what's the point?

And, yeah, where's the Kahr?

Black Snowman
April 1, 2004, 10:31 PM
I've handled the CS9, the RAMI and the SIG. I haven't shot any of them. I just got a CZ 75B 9mm and it shoots great for me. Personally I would get the RAMI. You're going to have to figure it out for yourself though :D

After verifying how much I really like my CZ 75B tonight my plans for my next 2 handgun purchases are a CZ 75B Compact and a RAMI.

Black Majik
April 1, 2004, 11:00 PM
none on the poll. :D

Kahr PM9 or SA XD-9 Subcompact. :)

rbernie
April 1, 2004, 11:01 PM
I have seen the light, and it is spelled P C R. :D

Tag
April 1, 2004, 11:14 PM
glock 19

PCRCCW
April 1, 2004, 11:27 PM
Small ejection port or not.......they are two of the most reliable guns around.............HK and CZ.

The CS9 is a great gun....but is a chunk in my hands......Id take a 3913 first.
The 239 is larger than the others and a great gun....just too big for what it is or does.
The CZ is a shooter and the 40 I have impresses me with its accuracy and function. The 9mm would be a softer shooter by a long shot.

The choice is the HK and is still large but about as good as they get.

Shoot well.

Devonai
April 1, 2004, 11:28 PM
You already have a H&K P7 and a Sig 228? With all due respect if both of those pistols are too heavy for you, might I suggest a modest weight training regimen?

:neener:

pauli
April 1, 2004, 11:59 PM
xd9sub weighs in at 20.5 ounces empty, so that would seem to fit your criteria.

Josey
April 2, 2004, 12:01 AM
I used to carry a S&W CS45 as my hideout. The CS9 should be just as good. You didn't have two very good pistols listed. Steyr S9 and the XD-9 subcompact.

BamBam-31
April 2, 2004, 02:15 AM
I carry my MK9 Elite around in a pocket holster. It looks like a wallet in my cargo pocket. Prolly not the quickest draw, but it's a really comfortable way to carry. With a good belt, the weight is nothing, really.

I also carry it IWB sometimes, and it's still pleasantly comfortable. I think the key is a good, stiff belt.

Just my .02, YMMV, etc.

only1asterisk
April 2, 2004, 03:26 AM
None of the above...

I need a little more to hold onto than the CS9, 239, or RAMI provide and P7 is one of those guns that you love or hate. You already have a SIG 228 I'd carry that.


David

caz223
April 2, 2004, 08:08 AM
Well, it looks like I have two good guns for this use, the H&K P7 and the SIG 228.
With the lukewarm responses, I guess I'll stick with those for now.
The H&K P7 really did better in the poll than I would have thought, but the SIG 228 seems just a little more natural to me, as well as having greater capacity.
I guess I'm in a holding pattern for now, unless a 9mm RAMI or smith CS9 comes my way used and on the cheap. (Fat chance!)
Thanks to all.
The 239 offers very little advantage over the 228, none that I can think of, that's why I was hesitant to list it. I used it as my 'control group'.
And my 228 has been everything a good mid-size pistol should be.
(Did I mention that I have a USP compact .45 as well?)
I just know that wouldn't have done well in the poll, so I didn't list it.
(It's roughly the same weight as the 239, 228 and the P7.)

Lobotomy Boy
April 2, 2004, 08:44 AM
If I wanted a 9mm for CCW, I'd only consider the G26, XD9 subcompact, or SW99 subcompact, and I'd pick the Glock. I like the Smith and the versatility of its design, but its controls are too finicky for CCW. The Springfield is really nice, but I think I'd go with the Glock because I believe it's trigger system is safer for CCW work.

But I wouldn't get a 9mm for CCW. I'm not anti-9mm, but since I have a choice in the matter, I plan to get a .45 ACP, with a .380 Bersa for a BUG.

RealGun
April 2, 2004, 08:50 AM
I think you are really asking for any reason why you shouldn't pick a CS9, since you are really rejecting so many good suggestions in the broader context of your poll's premise.

caz223
April 2, 2004, 10:02 AM
I really listed the options in order of preference, and that was no secret right from the beginning.
I have many good guns for CCW that I didn't disclose, either.
I like the 239, etc., but have enough said guns in the 25 ounce bracket.
The 15 ounce bracket is a little too light for my taste.
As for kahrs, glocks, and the like I just don't like 'em.
No offense, but they're bricks.
I want a good, instinctive,accurate gun that's single stack, and 20 ounces +-1.
I just wondered if I wasn't missing one somewhere.

Climb14er
April 2, 2004, 10:24 AM
Kahr PM9 Diamond Kote, under twenty ounces loaded ! My new CCW pistol. My Sig P239 is now my backup pistol. :)

Zundfolge
April 2, 2004, 10:26 AM
As for kahrs, glocks, and the like I just don't like 'em.
No offense, but they're bricks.
Kahrs?! BRICKS?!
:confused:

Glocks are bricks ... so are CZs and that Sig and the rest of the guns you have up there in your poll ... especially when compared to a Kahr.

Don't look at the plastic Kahrs (I'm not a big fan of them either), but based on the criteria you've laid out here the Kahr K9 sounds to me like the perfect gun for you. Unless you've shot one and it didn't feel right in your hand then I could see you not wanting one, but I really think you should reconsider the little guys.

"...good, instinctive,accurate gun that's single stack, and 20 ounces +-1." = Kahr :p

cratz2
April 2, 2004, 11:05 AM
If I were going to buy one of those listed for daily carry and weight was a factor, I'd give the CS9 a shot... But funds allowing, I'd rather have a kahr with a 3.5" or 4" barrel.

I'd love to have a P7 but oy, the $$$ :p And they're pretty heavy compared to what's listed here.

Looking at some of your comments, have you ever actually fired one of the poly Kahrs? Esp one larger than the PM9? Like them or not, I can't possibly see how anyone that has actually spend some time with one could call a P9 or a TP9 'a brick'! :confused:

Of course, I've been acused of being easily pleased... I recently switched from a Kahr P9 Covert to a SIG 229 as a daily carry and didn't really notice a tremendous difference in weight. It's definately thicker, but I guess I've carried 1911s long enough that anything that weighs much less than 40 something ounces loaded, is relatively OK in my book.

arinvolvo
April 2, 2004, 11:12 AM
i have the p239, and i have a kahr mk9...the kahr will be getting carried more.

RealGun
April 2, 2004, 11:15 AM
I wonder if a Berretta 9000S, type F might be close to what you want. It's available single action, unlike the rest in that weight class.

Lobotomy Boy
April 2, 2004, 11:28 AM
Right now the 9000 is on sale at Galyans for $319 for DA/SA and $299 for DAO.

DigMe
April 2, 2004, 11:38 AM
Right now the 9000 is on sale at Galyans for $319 for DA/SA and $299 for DAO.

Wow! I'd go for that if I had the dough even with the negative things that I've heard about them.

brad cook

Lobotomy Boy
April 2, 2004, 12:14 PM
I know what you mean: them's Bersa prices. I don't really need another 9mm right now. When I do buy one, it is going to be a high-end target gun, like a G34, but the little Beretta is really tempting.

caz223
April 2, 2004, 01:33 PM
For the sixth or seventh time now, I can't stand kahrs.
Hate 'em. Hate 'em. Hate 'em.
I don't like glocks other than the G20, hate DAO triggers, and can't stand square handguns. Hate para LDA's too. Does that make me bad?
They are just not on my list.
Same with any gun that emulates glock, for the same reason.
I have a G20, I like it. I don't shoot it much anymore, but I just like 10mm weapons.
I got the G20 before the other 10mil pistols, just because they were the easiest to get.
But I like 10 mm pistols, so that's my excuse.
Got a razorback, a 610, a 1076, and the G20.
Different class of pistola.
If H&K made a USP in 10mm, and CZ made a 97b in 10mm, I would have them both.

Frankly, I would have expected a better showing from the RAMI. But it is about as heavy as the 239, so again, very little incentive for me to spend the cash.

DigMe
April 2, 2004, 01:48 PM
caz223,

I was hoping you'd address why you aren't interested in the XD pistols since that's been mentioned a few times. Maybe I missed it if you did but if not then why aren't you considering that?

brad cook

RealGun
April 2, 2004, 04:05 PM
"I want a good, instinctive,accurate gun that's single stack, and 20 ounces +-1."

I hope I got this right:

*9mm
*single action
*single stack
*~20 ounces

Cons

CZ RAMI double stack mag, overweight, double action first shot

H&K double stack, overweight, double action first shot, seriously expensive - reference USP Compact - PSP is out of production (see P7) PSP would likely be a used gun.

Sig 239 - overweight, double action first shot

S&W CS9 - double action first shot

Pros

S&W CS9 - right weight, single stack, single action after first round

Sig 239 - worth considering at slightly heavier weight

I'd say, go get that CS9. My own beef would be an LE type, politically correct safety, which I would rather not have. You have a very wide spread in prices among these choices. That of the CS9 doesnt exactly take your breath away and it is no steal either.

I would just have to question the single action part, because no matter what you pick, that all important first shot is going to be double action. You might want to compare actions and trigger pulls to get real fine about it. I know you don't want to hear it, but Kahr folks have this all figured out.

DigMe
April 2, 2004, 05:06 PM
"I want a good, instinctive,accurate gun that's single stack, and 20 ounces +-1."

Ah, that kind of answers my XD question as the XD isn't single stack. I missed that part.

brad cook

Zundfolge
April 2, 2004, 05:17 PM
For the sixth or seventh time now, I can't stand kahrs.
Hate 'em. Hate 'em. Hate 'em.
I don't like glocks other than the G20, hate DAO triggers, and can't stand square handguns. Hate para LDA's too. Does that make me bad?
No, that doesn't make you bad ... the irony is that your specific criteria is exactly what a Kahr is.


But thats fine ... you don't like Kahrs ... your loss :neener:


So if you want a single action CCW piece in 9mm, have you looked at the STI LS9 (http://www.stiguns.com/guns/ls/ls.html) or BLS9 (http://www.stiguns.com/guns/bls/bls.html)?


You might also look at the Sprinfiled Micro Compact in 9mm.

Sounds to me like a compact/subcompact 1911 in 9mm is what you really want ... best way to avoid fat guns with DA triggers (unless they are too square for you).


EDIT
I can't believe I forgot this one ... have you looked at a RAP 401? There's a review of the 440 here (http://www.cruffler.com/Features/DEC-01/review-December-01.html) (the 440 is the .40 version, but you'll get the idea)

cratz2
April 2, 2004, 10:23 PM
No, that doesn't make you bad ... the irony is that your specific criteria is exactly what a Kahr is.
I guess that's what I meant... the Kahr was designed FOR you. Basically single action, smooth consistant trigger, single stack, light weight... Just something about it you don't like...

The thing about the RAMI that kind of surprised me was the first one I handled, I handled along with a P01... While the RAMI is smaller laying on the shelf, I find the PCR/P01 much more comfortable in the hand and the weight difference isn't as much as I would have expected. Not knocking the RAMI as the more options the better, but... it's just not as much lighter weight than the P01 as I expected when the hype or buzz started.

arinvolvo
April 2, 2004, 10:43 PM
Ill second the rap as a fine choice...

smaller than the p239, a little lighter, and a great value..

I kinda miss mine. but the kahr mk9 that replaced it is nice too.

caz223
April 3, 2004, 07:22 AM
So where do I find a rap 401 for sale?

Jim PHL
April 3, 2004, 10:36 AM
I'd second suggestions for two guns already mentioned:

I've always considered the S+W 3913 to be among their best in feel, design, size. (You may also like the 908, which is just a blued, basic 3913 predecessor (sp?) The only thing that kept me from buying the 3913 when I was seriously checking it out was that I was convinced I wanted a .40. (At the time, I could only find their 4013 in the TSW package which I did not like.)

The Springfield Armory Ultra-Compact is VERY nice. I bought a .45 with their "Loaded" package and am very happy with it. (A "Micro" or "Ultra" .45 will be my next purchase.) You will like the "Loaded" package for a carry gun: Novak Tritium night sights, Ambi-thumb safety, nice wood grips and a fully supported 3.5" barrel. At 28 oz. it's a little heavier than your spec, but many will agree that the thin, aluminum 1911 design carries lighter than a steel single stack or polymer double-stack.

You'd do well to check out both. The only thing more fun than talking about shopping for guns is shopping for guns!

Pilot
April 3, 2004, 11:02 AM
When you start putting the Sig 228 (great gun) in there you are talking about a totally different animal. Its a double stack 9MM, the rest are single stack. If you are considering the 228 as a carry piece, then think about a CZ-75 PCR, not the RAMI. I chose the PCR over the 228 and the prices were equal. (Yeah should have bought the both, but have a bizillion 9's). I have a P7 PSP and P7M8, but I carry the PSP or PCR almost exclusively.

caz223
April 3, 2004, 11:23 AM
I threw that in because I own a 228 already, I just didn't think of using it as a carry gun.
I'ts really a good gun.
Just never thought of carrying it.
It weighs the same as the 239, and I guess that's another reason I added the 239 to the poll. I am not even considering the 239 at this point, even though I'm sure it's a fine gun.
Both the 228 and the P7 are overweight, so I'll keep looking for now.
This forum is kinda biased against S&W autos, and I don't like all of them, but I really like the CS9, and will prolly wind up with one sooner or later, regardless.
But the RAP 401 interests me also at this point.

ah
April 3, 2004, 11:40 AM
I just bought a 9mm, 1911 Springfield Ultra Lightweight.
It has a 3.5" barrel, holds 8 +1 rounds, it's very flat and is a lot of fun to shoot.

It's heavier than your weight requirement, it weighs 28oz, but it's a great little 1911 and is so easy to carry. You can also use the 9-round magazines in it. So, you have a single stack mag, that's flat. It does protrude from the grip, but it's nice.

I've not seen a RAMI, but it looks really interesting.

Zundfolge
April 3, 2004, 07:06 PM
So where do I find a rap 401 for sale?
I found one on GunsAmerica (don't know anything about the seller so caveat emptor)

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976075366.htm


plus there was a guy calling himself CRAYZCANESSPORTS who posted his RAP for sale here on THR a while back here (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28220)

arinvolvo
April 27, 2004, 05:22 AM
ill vouch for crazycanesports. I bought my rap from him a while back.

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