Why NRA Rule #2 may be CHL People's Rule #1


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Greybeard
February 25, 2014, 01:56 PM
Just now beginning to get over the learning curve of some new software - which is often ruff for some geezers! This one may draw some differing opinions, but hopefully not as volatile as the last one when I mentioned the words OC. Some of us have greater priorities. ;-) http://www.dentoncountysports.com/blog.html
"With a common form of carry for both men and women being IWB (inside waist band) and Rule #1 and #3 being compromised, the final photo here depicts what many of us believe is the safest option when re-holstering IWB, particularly with holsters that do not have a rigid opening. Placing the loaded handgun inside the holster while pointed in the safest direction, then putting the holster into the desired position greatly reduces any chance of a finger or a piece of clothing getting inside the trigger guard."

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brboyer
February 25, 2014, 02:10 PM
Just now beginning to get over the learning curve of some new software - which is often ruff for some geezers! This one may draw some differing opinions, but hopefully not as volatile as the last one when I mentioned the words OC. Some of us have greater priorities. ;-) http://www.dentoncountysports.com/blog.html
As many in law enforcement and the "real world" of concealed carry have come to recognize, the NRA's three primary rules for safe gun handling for "Sport Shooting" must be judiciously applied in proper contexts. CHL people and cops are certainly not expected to carry unloaded handguns, so a little common sense is applicable to "the totality of the circumstances" in regard to Rule #1 and #3.

Precisely why a much better rule, one that requires no adjustment for the circumstances or concern over the proper contexts in which they apply, would be preferable: "Don't shoot anything you don't intend to shoot."

morcey2
February 25, 2014, 02:27 PM
The one that everyone interprets wrong is #3.
Always keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.

That misinterpretation is present in the article when it mentions that CHL people can't be expected to carry an unloaded gun.

The rule doesn't say "shoot", but "use". When I put my gun in the holster when I get up, it's loaded because its "use" is to be ready in case I need it. It always takes a while in the classes for everyone to understand the big difference between #2 and #3. #2 says "shoot" while #3 says "use".

Matt

Double Naught Spy
February 25, 2014, 07:38 PM
You know if you are going to write a critical article about specific rules you wish to contrast, it might be helpful to actually and specifically state what the rules are instead of just referring to them by number and assuming every one knows what you are talking about.

benEzra
February 25, 2014, 08:52 PM
I believe the "NRA rules" were codified with recreational shooting/hunting in mind, not defensive purposes. I think for a defense gun, Jeff Cooper's "Four Rules of Gun Safety" are more apropos.

http://www.corneredcat.com/article/firearms-safety/the-four-rules/

I personally do not believe in unloading a defensive firearm whenever it goes into the safe; otherwise one could be loading/unloading several times a day, and that can be a safety hazard (not only increasing the risk of unintentional/negligent discharge, but also bullet setback/overpressure issues).

Drail
February 25, 2014, 09:01 PM
+1 Load it and leave it loaded. Commercial ammunition is not designed or guaranteed to function after numerous loading and unloadings. Most of the ammunition makers will tell you that they only intend it to be used for one loading. It can be made so that it will withstand rechambering over and over - but most of it is not made to those standards. Most military ammunition is.

oldbear
February 25, 2014, 09:08 PM
I really don't understand the theme of the article specially as it applies to CCW, sorry. I carried IWB, off duty, for 25+ years, and all I can add is I never had an N.D. re-holstering, nor do I know anyone who did.

As always a dose of caution and common sense will go along way in preventing accidents, no matter what you are doing.

Greybeard
February 25, 2014, 09:13 PM
DNS - That picture of the "NRA Sports" poster was placed front and center so the rules, as stated exactly their (our) way, would be clear in conjunction with further reading.

An old friend from here has already injected his opinion in the first comment. It is hard to disagree with NRA Rule #1 (muzzle ALWAYS in a safe direction) being THE most important. But a reality check for most people who carry IWB or in a pocket generally confirms "always" is not necessarily the case: there is some risk of catching at least a good burn.

Oldbear - Check out Jim's examples in the first comment in regard to some who were less fortunate.

morcey2
February 25, 2014, 09:24 PM
I believe the "NRA rules" were codified with recreational shooting/hunting in mind, not defensive purposes.

Recreational shooting/hunting, correct, but also for instruction. When you tell someone who just bought their first gun and knows absolutely nothing about them Treat every gun as if it was loaded! the usual response is
What the $!@#%$ does that mean!

At least in my experience. To them it sounds like me telling someone who knows nothing about tube amps or electronics "Bias a Class AB PP output stage at 70% dissipation."

What's the first part of "treating every gun as if it's loaded?" Keeping it pointed in a safe direction. If you break into my house, __you__ are the safe direction. :D

Matt

Guy B. Meredith
February 26, 2014, 01:37 AM
So carry a revolver.

Can't see how #3 us violated. On the other hand, the idea of carrying at 1:30 bothers me as it violates rule #2--aimed at my private parts and artery. Despite my misgivings, I am finding 1:00 to 1:30 convenient.

Greybeard
February 26, 2014, 08:41 AM
The overall intent of the post is to keep people thinking, especially about the first 2 rules - in the midst of what may be "trade offs". The ones that worry me the most are those who may decide to ditch an LCP or Bodyguard .380 (with a thumb safety) in favor of the new Glock 42. Then continue with their favored "belly carry" while repeatedly stuffing it into a soft holster.

bearcreek
February 26, 2014, 08:59 AM
those who may decide to ditch an LCP or Bodyguard .380 (with a thumb safety) in favor of the new Glock 42. Then continue with their favored "belly carry" while repeatedly stuffing it into a soft holster.
The LCP does not have a thumb safety.

MedWheeler
February 26, 2014, 09:15 AM
Brboyer writes:

Precisely why a much better rule, one that requires no adjustment for the circumstances or concern over the proper contexts in which they apply, would be preferable: "Don't shoot anything you don't intend to shoot."

I've used that idea before, too, stating the best rule should simply be "do not pull the trigger, or allow it to be pulled, when doing so would be bad."

morcey2 writes:

The rule doesn't say "shoot", but "use". When I put my gun in the holster when I get up, it's loaded because its "use" is to be ready in case I need it. It always takes a while in the classes for everyone to understand the big difference between #2 and #3. #2 says "shoot" while #3 says "use".

I argued against this point with another member here several years back. He was of the mindset that, if I am carrying for defense a firearm, I am "using" it. Since the "use" of a firearm while under the influence of alcoholic beverages is unlawful in Florida (except in necessary and otherwise-lawful defense), he asserted that the simple carrying of a firearm by a carry-licensee is unlawful in the state if the licensee is consuming alcohol. That is not the case in Florida.
I also used the argument that, just because I am carrying a cellphone does not mean I am using it (imagine if it carrying one was considered use, in states in which the use of a cellphone is unlawful while driving.)

Greybeard
February 26, 2014, 09:21 AM
Bearcreek "The LCP does not have a thumb safety."

Comprendo. I've owned one since they came out. Please note the "thumb safety" was in reference to the .380 Bodyguard, very similar size and does have an itty bitty one.

Double Naught Spy
February 26, 2014, 09:26 AM
DNS - That picture of the "NRA Sports" poster was placed front and center so the rules, as stated exactly their (our) way, would be clear in conjunction with further reading.

Well you could not place it on the back side and by center I take it that you mean off to the left margin????

Small image, difficult to read even on my 20" monitor and not referenced in the article per se, does not expand to reasonable size when you click on it.

It is harder to make effective arguments when you make it harder for people to be able access/see/comprehend the information about which you are talking.

Greybeard
February 26, 2014, 09:50 AM
Good Morning DNS! Had a little gunpower again to flavor up the coffee? ;) I suspect that NRA poster is probably the most common of any "short list of rules" in the country, yet, as pointed out by others, is somewhat different than Jeff Cooper's rules. I checked the size yesterday on my monitor and did not have a lot of trouble reading it, but if you did, others may too. So I may need to look at that again. And get more coffee. Unsure if the software will facilitate re-sizing - or maybe not within the parameters of the operator. :rolleyes:

Edited to add: DNS - I think I got lucky and was able to make poster pic about 4 times bigger. You maybe likee more better!?!? Thanks all for the feedback. I did a little bit of verbiage tweaking while at it.

Tirod
February 26, 2014, 10:25 AM
Pertaining to IWB: Goes to the fact that while holstering, you "muzzle" a great deal of the lower torso.

There are some safety mavens who would shriek at any gun handling practice where the muzzle is pointed at a body part, yet, I find in the aggregate that those who post about it all carry IWB, and many show no love whatsoever for a Versacarry type clip.

What the OP mentions is exactly what you have to do reattaching the pistol with a Versacarry - remove it from the waistband, insert the plug into the barrel, then insert the clip back onto the belt.

Since we are talking about concealed carry, that doesn't happen very often. Once in the morning getting dressed, and the one time you have to use the pistol. And in that circumstance it's preferred you leave it out in the open for the LEO's to see.

It's the soft holster snagging the trigger than can cause a problem - and guns with Glock safety triggers are particularly prone to that. A SA with thumb safety can tolerate accidental manipulation of the trigger and still not discharge.

That's why they sell IWB holsters with reinforced openings or in Kydex - to prevent snagging the trigger. And that goes to OWB or others, because it has happened then, too. If the holster fails to rigidly hold itself open to receive the firearm, then it should be removed to do it under full view of the carrier to prevent a negligent discharge.

Goes the the most effective rule of gun handling "only aim the gun at what you plan to shoot."

Frank Ettin
February 26, 2014, 10:56 AM
...the final photo here depicts what many of us believe is the safest option when re-holstering IWB, particularly with holsters that do not have a rigid opening....A better option is to use a well designed, quality holster with a rigid opening. All my holsters, including the IWB holsters I use, are such; and I've had no trouble re-holstering one handed, without looking.

I believe the "NRA rules" were codified with recreational shooting/hunting in mind, not defensive purposes. I think for a defense gun, Jeff Cooper's "Four Rules of Gun Safety" are more apropos....The standard view is that the Four Rules originated at Gunsite. Founded by Jeff Cooper in the mid-1970s, it was probably the first school teaching defensive pistolcraft to private citizens.

I've been fortunate enough to attend three classes at Gunsite, and the Four Rules are core to safe gun handling. Note that Gunsite is a hot range. All guns really are loaded at pretty much all times.

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l142/fiddletown_2006/Arizona/IMG_0944-2.jpg

Here's (http://www.frfrogspad.com/safety.htm) an interesting discussion of firearm safety by another former student of Jeff Cooper's.

And to reinforce that, some time ago I received the following (quoted in part) in an email from another Gunsite alumnus:...Negligent discharges that result in injury are the result of 1. IGNORANCE, and/or 2. COMPLACENCY and/or 3. HABIT that is inappropriate to changed conditions.

Proper training with the universal rules can only address #1 and #3.

...The great deficiency of much NRA civilian training ... is that muzzle and trigger discipline are not rigorously enforced except when on the range when the line is hot and sometimes not even then. Change the conditions to carrying a loaded gun at all times and adverse results are predictable.

EXAMPLE #1: Trap and skeet shooters often rest muzzles on their toes and point them at each other. They have almost no accidents on the range because guns are unloaded until just before they shoot. ...CHANGE CONDITIONS to a duck blind with loaded guns and the results are predictable....

One thing that Jeff Cooper said ... made a big impression on me. It is seldom repeated. To address complacency he said that every morning when he picks up his gun he says to himself "somewhere today someone is going to have an accident with a gun - not me, not today"....
The current Four Rules grew up on a hot range where it is customary to indeed go about with one's gun(s) loaded and where people are trained who will indeed be going around with loaded guns out in the world and about their normal business.

The real world is a hot range.

Sam1911
February 26, 2014, 10:59 AM
Maybe I'm being dense, but I carry IWB quite a bit, and aside from a little, very minor, sweeping down the side of my right leg, perhaps, I don't point the gun at any part of my anatomy, EVER!

I have indeed watched people who use cheap, floppy, clip-on type holsters using the muzzle of the gun as a prying tool to get the holster open again, and they do tend to point the muzzle right through their thigh, pelvis, abdomen, etc., as they try to wriggle it back into the collapsed holster.

But using gear a step above "bargain basement" should preclude any such stupidity.

Why is this such a risk? Straight in, straight out. Don't point the gun at your body!

...

FWIW, IDPA allows the use of any strong-side IWB holster in competition. However, if you sweep yourself holstering the weapon you'll be Disqualified immediately. I've not seen that happen, so I'm not the only one that can figure it out...

morcey2
February 26, 2014, 11:15 AM
I argued against this point with another member here several years back. He was of the mindset that, if I am carrying for defense a firearm, I am "using" it. Since the "use" of a firearm while under the influence of alcoholic beverages is unlawful in Florida (except in necessary and otherwise-lawful defense), he asserted that the simple carrying of a firearm by a carry-licensee is unlawful in the state if the licensee is consuming alcohol. That is not the case in Florida.
I also used the argument that, just because I am carrying a cellphone does not mean I am using it (imagine if it carrying one was considered use, in states in which the use of a cellphone is unlawful while driving.)

The issue is you're conflating two different phrases:"use" and "ready to use."

1. When you get to the firing line at a range with a gun, you're ready to use it. That one is obvious.
2. When you're about to go traipsing across a cut cornfield in search of pheasants that no longer exist, but you're willing to go anyway, you're ready to use it. You're carrying a gun in the hopes that something that is in season will break cover within range. You're ready to use the gun, even if you never actually pull the trigger. And since pheasants are involved, odds are the trigger will never be pulled. :D
3. If you're putting a gun in a holster to have it on your person in case you run into a situation where it becomes necessary to actually discharge it in defense of your self or someone else, you're ready to use it. You hope to never actually use it but you're "ready to use" it.

I've never thought about the alcoholic beverage side of things since I don't drink so it has never been an issue.

Matt

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