Too Many Different Cartridges


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SP2000
February 26, 2014, 04:29 PM
So I was reading this article and got to thinking. http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/02/robert-farago/6-5-grendel-new-300-blackout/

Maybe if we didn't make about 5000 different cartridges, of which about 4990 overlap, we wouldn't have ammo shortages. I just don't understand it. Why so many when many are almost identical? :banghead:

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Arkansas Paul
February 26, 2014, 04:31 PM
It's all about the Benjamins.

Davek1977
February 26, 2014, 04:36 PM
That might make sense, if we'd had the technology to create guns with today's capabilities a century ago. However, we didn't and we've incrementally increased performance since the dawn of firearms. Guns themselves last lifetimes with proper care, meaning that a lot of guns from 1900 and before are still perfectly serviceable....so long as one can get ammo for them, fueling a demand for every round that's gained a bit of traction since the dawn of the metallic cartridge. While its true one could do everything a shooter could "reasonably" need to do with a handful of cartridges, limiting production to those calibers would put millions of serviceable weapons completely out of service. Not every shooter wants to be limited to reloading their own ammo, and as long as there's a demand for it, companies will continue to produce a wide, wide variety of ammo to feed the wide variety of useable firearms

buck460XVR
February 26, 2014, 04:43 PM
I don't think the variety of cartridges has contributed much to the ammo shortage. Ain't much variety in .22 rimfire and they are the hardest to find.

Arkansas Paul
February 26, 2014, 04:58 PM
It would probably be worse if everyone had the same caliber. Then you would be competing with everyone for ammo. As it stands you are only competing with those who shoot the same thing as you do.

Most rifle stuff wasn't scarce anyway.
I deer hunt with a .30-06 and a .243 and there was never an instance I couldn't find the ammo on the shelf. Not that I buy ammo off the shelf, I don't. But it was available.

km101
February 26, 2014, 05:40 PM
Variety! Life would really be dull if everyone shot the same caliber. You would become so bored that you would lose interest. Variety is the spice of life, and I like it spicy!

Eaglestroker
February 26, 2014, 05:50 PM
Even at the peak of the crazy, I could walk in local stores and buy 41 Rem Mag if I wanted it. Variety isn't such a bad thing!

RPRNY
February 26, 2014, 06:08 PM
Perhaps if the Central Government would create an economic plan, say every five years and sort of tell companies what they should manufacture and how much of it...oh, wait ;-)

SP2000
February 26, 2014, 06:18 PM
I'm not knocking variety, I just think it's too much. Personally, I'll never own a rifle in anything besides 223 or 308. IMO, those or their brass/bullets will be around long after I'm gone.

JohnM
February 26, 2014, 06:26 PM
Too many!?! :what:
The variety available is what it's all about.

morcey2
February 26, 2014, 06:34 PM
Let the market sort it out. The most common cartridges will go first in a panic leaving the less common ones on the shelf. Eventually, the less common ones will sell out as the more common ones start making a comeback as the ammo manufacturers focus on the low-hanging fruit.

I think every different chambering has it's own personality, and while there is a lot of overlap, that personality comes into play. There's only 0.007" difference in bullet diameter between 270 Win and 280 Rem and a very slight case capacity advantage in the 280 and there isn't anything functionally that one will do that the other can't do as well. But I've seen people almost come to blows arguing over which one is better. I'm building a 280 (probably. Still might become a 6.5-06 instead) simply because I already load for 7x57 and I think there is slightly better bullet selection for 0.284" bullets as compared to 0.277" and I'm already hoarding...er.. buying bullets in 7mm.

Matt

Savage99
February 26, 2014, 09:24 PM
A powerful word in sales or marketing is "new".

The sellers need to sell us something that we may already really have or don't need.

Guns last a very long time.

New.

CoalTrain49
February 26, 2014, 11:06 PM
5000 different cartridges was the result of the gun and ammo industry to get you to buy something NEW. Guns last too long so you get a few new cartridges every year to peak your interest. If you want to opt out just buy an old milsurp rifle, and stockpile the ammo.

That's what I did.

Scooter567
February 26, 2014, 11:15 PM
I read a stat last week about the number of new AR owners this past year. I wish I could remember the exact stat, but if I say it here it will be wrong, but just know that it was astronomical! My lgs can't seem to keep a gun on the shelf. I have to say it seems pretty ironic that when the fed govt wants to limit gun sales, it drives the market so much that there are no longer any guns available to be purchased. I know this is a slight overstatement, but it is true, isn't it? And having so many different calibers just means that there is something out there for everyone. Or another gun to buy for someone who already has several. More options means more gun sales. More gun sales means more ammo sales. And the govt wants more gun control? Keep scaring us and we'll keep buying more!

Scooter567
February 26, 2014, 11:18 PM
I apologize if that last post is not in line with the thinking on this site. If it is inflammatory or anything, I hope the moderators will just remove it. I didn't mean it to be inflammatory, just noting a good case of irony.. .

Steel Horse Rider
February 26, 2014, 11:28 PM
SP2000: You should never say "never" as it will come back to bite you. Part of the enjoyment of collecting for me has been finding a rifle I don't have, (usually something old or military surplus) buying a good example, and then buying the dies and supplies to reload it so I can shoot for the experience without worry.Do you like many flavors of ice cream or just vanilla and chocolate???

rayatphonix
February 27, 2014, 06:50 AM
I know your post was asking about the need, or lack of, all the different cartridges around and I agree with nearly all of the replies. What's surprised me is that nobody questioned the original article. I have a Grendel and I can't imagine why the author would put it in the same category as the 300 Blackout. About the only things they have in common is a) the both work out of an ar platform and b) they both use primers/powder and a bullet. The Blackout (Whisper is another version) was designed for subsonic rounds. As the author states, the Grendel was designed for long range shooting. To me it's like asking if the 30-06 is the next 45 ACP. I read the article twice and maybe I missed something.

berettaprofessor
February 27, 2014, 09:01 AM
40S&W was always available here over the past two years. At one time you couldn't even find 25 ACP but the 40 was available. Of course, 40S&W is about the only handgun caliber I don't have:what:

Sam1911
February 27, 2014, 09:27 AM
It's one of the great ironies, right? Isn't it wonderful how many different cartridges there are? And every single new one (.26 Nosler anybody???) is so absurdly redundant as to be laughable.

I've posted this before, but it's always good for a chuckle, just at the scale of the "problem."

Here is the list of RIFLE cartriges, in caliber order, for which you can buy brass from Midway:

17 Remington Fireball
17 Remington
20 OTTR
20 Tactical
204 Ruger
5.6x33 Rimmed Rook
22 Hornet
218 Bee
221 Fireball
222 Remington
222 Rimmed
223 Remington
220 Russian
219 Zipper
225 Winchester
224 Weatherby Magnum
22-250 Remington
223 Winchester Super Short Magnum
220 Swift
5.6x52mm Rimmed (22 Savage High-Power)
6x45mm (6mm-223 Remington)
6mm PPC
6mm BR (Bench Rest)
6mm XC
243 Winchester
243 Winchester Ackley Improved
243 Winchester Super Short Magnum
240 Weatherby Magnum
6mm Remington
6mm-06 Springfield
6.17 Spitfire
240 Hawk
244 H&H Magnum
240 H&H Magnum
240 Gibbs
25-20 WCF
25-20 Single Shot
256 Winchester Magnum
25-21 Stevens
25-25 Stevens
25-36 Marlin
25-35 WCF
25 Remington
250 Savage
257 Roberts
25-06 Remington
25 Gibbs
25 Winchester Super Short Magnum
257 Weatherby Magnum
6.53 Scramjet
257 STW
6.5x53 Rimmed
6.5 Grendel
264 SALZ (264 Salisbury)
6.5mm Japanese
6.5mm Carcano
6.5x54mm Mannlicher-Schoenauer
6.5 Creedmoor
6.5x47mm Lapua
260 Remington
6.5x55mm Swedish Mauser
6.5mm-257 Roberts
6.5x58mm Rimmed Sauer
256 Newton
6.5mm-284 Winchester (Norma)
6.71 Phantom
6.5mm-06 A-Square
6.5mm Remington Magnum
264 Hawk
6.5mm Gibbs
264 Winchester Magnum
6.5mm STW
6.5mm-300 Weatherby Magnum
6.8mm Remington SPC
270 Winchester
270 Winchester Short Magnum
270 Gibbs
270 Ackley Magnum
270-338 Winchester Magnum
270 Weatherby Magnum
270 STW
7x33mm Sako
7mm TCU
7mm BR (Bench Rest)
7-30 Waters
7mm-08 Remington
7x57mm Rimmed
7x72 Rimmed
7x57mm Mauser (7mm Mauser)
7mm Shooting Times Easterner
284 Winchester
7x64mm Brenneke
280 Remington
280 Remington Ackley Improved 40-Degree Shoulder
7mm Gibbs
275 H&H Magnum
7x61mm Sharpe & Hart (7x61mm Super)
7.21 Tomahawk
276 B-J Express
7mm Remington Short Action Ultra Magnum
7mm Winchester Short Magnum
7mm Remington Magnum
7mm Weatherby Magnum
7mm STW
288 Barnes Supreme
7mm-300 Weatherby Magnum
7.21 Firebird
7mm Remington Ultra Magnum
7mm Dakota
28-30 Stevens
300 Rook
300 Sherwood
307 Winchester
30 M1 Carbine
300 AAC Blackout (7.62x35mm)
30-30 Winchester
308 Marlin Express
300 Savage
30 TC
308 Winchester
30-40 Krag
7.62x53mm Rimmed
7.62x54mm Rimmed Russian
7.5x55mm Schmidt-Rubin (Swiss)
309 JDJ
30-06 Springfield
30 Gibbs
7.82 Patriot
300 Hoffman
300 Ruger Compact Magnum
300 Remington Short Action Ultra Magnum
300 Winchester Short Magnum
30-338 Winchester Magnum
308 Norma Magnum
300 H&H Magnum
30 Newton
300 Caribou
300 ICL Grizzly
300 Winchester Magnum
308 B-J Express
308 Barnes Supreme
300 Weatherby Magnum
300 Gonzo II
300 Dakota
300 Remington Ultra Magnum
7.82 Warbird
30 Super Flanged
30-378 Weatherby Magnum
300 Pegasus
300 Norma Magnum
7.62x39mm Russian
32-20 WCF
303 British
7.7x58mm (Japanese)
7.65mm Argentine Mauser
310 Cadet
8x48mm Rimmed Sauer
8.15x46mm Rimmed (318 Diameter)
8x58mm Rimmed Sauer (318 Diameter)
8x58mm Rimmed
32 Winchester Self-Loading
32-40 WCF
32 Remington
32 Winchester Special
32 Ideal
8x56mm Mannlicher-Schoenauer
8x57mm Mauser (8mm Mauser)
8x57mm JRS Rimmed Mauser
8x60mm Rimmed S Mauser
8mm-06 Springfield
8x64mm Brenneke
8mm-06 Springfield Ackley Improved
320 Hawk
325 Winchester Short Magnum (WSM)
8mm Remington Magnum
8x56mm Rimmed Hungarian Mannlicher
318 Westley Richards
333 B-J Express
333 Flanged Nitro Express
333 Jeffery Rimless
334 OKH
333 Barnes Supreme
335 OTTR
338 Spectre
338 IHMSA
338 Marlin Express
338 Federal
33 WCF
340 Gibbs
338-06 JDJ
338-06 A-Square
338-06 A-Square Ackley Improved
338 Hawk
338 Scovill
8.59 Galaxy
338 Ruger Compact Magnum
338 Winchester Magnum
338 Norma Magnum
338 A-Square
338 Baker
338-404 Express
340 Weatherby Magnum
330 Dakota
338 Remington Ultra Magnum
8.59 Titan
338 Lapua Magnum
338-378 Weatherby Magnum
348 Winchester
35 Winchester
35 Winchester Self-Loading
351 Winchester Self-Loading
9x57mm Mauser (9mm Mauser)
360 Nitro Express
400-350 Nitro Express (350 Rigby)
350 Rigby
35 Remington
356 Winchester
358 Winchester
358 JDJ
35 Gibbs
35 Whelen
35-06 JDJ
350 Remington Magnum
358 Hawk
358 Scovill
358 Norma Magnum
358 B-J Express
35 Newton
358 Shooting Times Alaskan
350 G&H Magnum
358 Yukon
358 Barnes Supreme
9.3x57mm Mauser
9.3x62mm Mauser
9.3x82mm Rimmed
9.3x74mm Rimmed
9.3 Sisk, 9.3 Barnes-Sisk
366 DGW
400-360
400-375 Nitro Express
375 Winchester
9.5x47mm Rimmed
38-56 WCF
9.5x56mm Mannlicher-Schoenauer (375 Nitro Express Rimless) (9.5mm Mannlicher-Sch
375-284 Winchester
375 Hawk-Scovill
375 Whelen Improved
375 ICL Kodiak
375 Epstein Magnum
375 H&H Magnum
375 H&H Magnum Ackley Improved
375 Flanged (Rimmed)
375 Ruger
375 Weatherby Magnum
375 Barnes Supreme
375 JRS Magnum
375 Dakota
375 Remington Ultra Magnum
375 A-Square
378 Weatherby Magnum
375 Chey-Tac
376 Steyr
38-55 WCF
38-72 WCF
375 Rimless
400 Nitro Express
395 Tatanka
38-40 WCF
40-60 Marlin
40-70 Sharps
40 Newton
10.15x61mm Jarmann
400 Hoffman
40-90 Sharps
400 Whelen Basic
400 H&H Magnum
450-400 Nitro Express
405 Basic
401 Winchester Self-Loading
40-65 WCF
40-72 WCF
40-82 WCF
408 Chey-Tac
400 A-Square (400 Pondoro)
411 Hawk Basic
404 Barnes Supreme
405 Clemens
405 Winchester
416 Ruger
416 Taylor
416 Remington Magnum
416 Accurate Reloading
416 Barnes Supreme
10.57 Meteor
416 Hoffman
416 Weatherby Magnum
416 Rigby
425 Fossdal
404 Jeffery
10.75x65mm Rimmed
10.75x68mm Mauser
44-40 WCF
444 Marlin
425 Express
43 Mauser/Spanish/Egyptian (11x60mm Rimmed Mauser, 11.15x60mm Rimmed Mauser)
11.2x72mm Schuler
43 Werndl
451 Detonics
500-450
45-100 WCF
45-110 Sharps
45-120 Sharps
45 Basic
450 Bushmaster
45-75 Winchester
577-450 Martini Henry
43 Beaumont
45-90 WCF
458 Socom
45-70 Government
458 Denali
450 Marlin
458 Acc Rel (Accurate Reloading)
458 Winchester Magnum
458 Lott
450 Alaskan
450 B-J Express
458 MCW
450 Watts Magnum
450 Barnes Supreme
450 Assegai
450 Dakota
460 Short A-Square
450 Number 2 Nitro Express 3-1/2"
450 Magnum Express
450 Nitro Express
460 Weatherby Magnum
465 H&H Magnum
500-465 Nitro Express
461 Gibbs
470 Capstick
470 Mbogo
476 Nitro Express
475 Nitro Express
470 Accurate Reloading
470 Nitro Express
475 Number 2 Nitro Express
50 Beowulf
500 Accurate Reloading
500 Mbogo
577-500 Nitro Express
Belted Magnum Basic
505 Empire
505 Barnes Supreme
505 Gibbs Magnum
50 Alaskan
50-90 Sharps
500 Nitro Express
500 A-Square Magnum
500 Jeffery
495 A-Square
50 BMG
56-50 Spencer
50-110 Winchester
50-70 Government
50-95 Winchester
12.7x44mm Rimmed Danish
577 Snyder
585 Nyati
577 Nitro Express
600 Nitro Express

(Whew!) Now the crazy part is I can think of a BUNCH of cartridges that aren't on that list!

Now let's talk about PISTOL cartridges... naah, never mind.

MErl
February 27, 2014, 09:41 AM
Well there is more than just bullet diameter and case volume to be concerned about (raw power). New classes of cartridges are developed for specific guns (rimmed, fit in AR mag, etc) or to fit in traditional action and sizes. Add in different parent case choices in different parts of the world you get regional differences which have overlap when merged together. Then add in laws banning military of evil calibers for another set of slight variations.

That said there is alot of overlap even within limited categories. There is not that much difference between 5.56 and 6mmX45

buck460XVR
February 27, 2014, 09:59 AM
I'm not knocking variety, I just think it's too much. Personally, I'll never own a rifle in anything besides 223 or 308. IMO, those or their brass/bullets will be around long after I'm gone.


I think it's ironic that you complain about redundancy in your opening post and then claim one of the two calibers you would own is nuttin' but a modern clone of the infamous 30-06. The .308 is a prime example of where someone took a successful caliber and made it into something more desirable to THEM. In this case, a matter of making a short action cartridge outta a long action cartridge, leaving caliber and ballistics for all practical purposes, identical.

If all one did was hunt members of the deer family and large varmints, your two calibers would be sufficient. Most folks probably could get thru life with only two rifle calibers....but why? Why use a centerfire for small game when a rimfire will work much better at a much lower cost. Lotta different brass out there that's been around a lot longer than .223 and .308. Those calibers will still be with us as long as those two are. Doubt if any of us will live to see their demise. Everyone has their favorite calibers....just some have a few more favorites than others and some have different priorities. Me, I personally like the idea that I have such a broad selection to make my choices from.

HoosierQ
February 27, 2014, 12:04 PM
So I was reading this article and got to thinking. http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/02/robert-farago/6-5-grendel-new-300-blackout/

Maybe if we didn't make about 5000 different cartridges, of which about 4990 overlap, we wouldn't have ammo shortages. I just don't understand it. Why so many when many are almost identical? :banghead:
This might be true if it were not for probably about 90% of all the ammunition made (measured by round count) is probably spread across maybe a dozen or so calibers (22lr, 9mm, .223, .308, 30-06, .45acp, 7.62x39...maybe .40 S&W, 30-30, maybe .243, etc)

Dentite
February 27, 2014, 12:15 PM
Too many cartridges? That's like saying too many fast cars or too many beautiful women. Buy what you like and don't care about what others buy. The market will work itself out on overly redundant cartridges. Variety is the spice of life.

SP2000
February 27, 2014, 01:19 PM
I agree with you all, I just never caught on that a lot of it has to do with selling guns. New cartridge = new gun.
And when I mentioned 308 instead of 30-06, that was just because 308 is used by the military so I assume it would be more plentiful.
And even if you hunted every animal on the continent, you wouldn't need more than 7-10 different cartridges.

jmr40
February 27, 2014, 05:27 PM
And even if you hunted every animal on the continent, you wouldn't need more than 7-10 different cartridges.

I could hunt everything on the planet with 2-3. Everything in North America with 1-2.

The primary reason we have so many is nostalgia. Hunters and shooters are a nostalgic bunch and too many hold onto old obsolete chamberings just because, even though newer and better are available.

Nothing really wrong with that, and there is certainly nothing wrong with trying to make newer and better. When we as a civilization stop progressing, we are dying. Gun companies that stop coming out with new and innovative products and chamberings are soon to be dead and out of business.

morcey2
February 27, 2014, 08:51 PM
The primary reason we have so many is nostalgia. Hunters and shooters are a nostalgic bunch and too many hold onto old obsolete chamberings just because, even though newer and better are available.


While I agree with that somewhat, I don't think nostalgia is as big of a factor as you do. Nostalgia implies that someone is using something that is insufficient for the task at hand while better is available. If you're still hunting mule deer with a lever action 25-20, that's what I'd call nostalgia. I'm a big fan of the 57mm-length rounds from 6mm Rem to 8x57 that many have declared obsolete although they're far from it. Same with 6.5x55. Personally, I think that the 6mm Rem is quite a bit better than the 243 with a little more case capacity, longer neck, and it's loaded to higher pressure. It's also a very modern looking cartridge with a relatively sharp shoulder angle (26*, I think). Same with both 257 bob and 7x57. The shoulder angle is more "classic" at 20*, but the longer neck than many modern replacements.

The 7mm-08 and 7x57 are pretty much ballistically identical; same with 260 Rem and 6.5x55 swede. "But the 308-based ones will fit in a short action" is what I always hear. True, sorta. If you're loading long, relatively heavy bullets in either one, you have a couple of choices. Seat the bullet deep so it will function in the short action rifle or have the barrel throated deeper and treat the rifle as a single shot since the rounds won't fit in the mag. I don't view either of them as a true short-action round. Once you move past the short action to a long action, the older mauser-based chamberings make more sense, at least to me. :)

I don't think the chamberings are obsolete, but the max pressure ratings are. I'd love to see a 7x57 +P, 6.5x55 +P, and an 8x57 +P from SAAMI, but I'm not holding my breath. (maybe they could just steal the CIP data.)

Anyway, enough rambling. I'm happy to have any and all of them, at least at this point. :)

Matt

hartcreek
February 28, 2014, 04:17 AM
We all like different calibres for doing different things.....heck I have been known to go varmit shooting with a 25-35 WCF or 32 WCF simply because I felt like it.

Tirod
March 1, 2014, 11:36 AM
That's the point - we aren't short 4990 different types of ammo.

We're short the dozen or so cartridges in high demand.

This happened in Obamascare #1, the military calibers disappeared, but you could get traditional rounds all day long from a lot of ammo retailers. 12ga, 30-06, 30-30 were still on the shelf back then all the time.

Now, even more people woke up to wonder what about ammo and bought out a bunch of that, too. And the makers have put the low demand ammo on the back burner, some even have dropped them altogether, to focus on the high demand rounds. It's more profitable to keep the machines running than change them up - the down time setting up a different cartridge makes no profit, it's labor expense with some scrap getting it right. Just run the machine and you make profit.

There is another aspect, too. Where does America shop for ammo? Usually at the place where they buy milk, and that is NOT a high volume outlet with pallets of ammo waiting to be purchased by the case. We can now buy ammo thru the internet with drop shipping to our front door, completely unregulated, and that expansion of our 2A rights means the box at a time shoppers are competing at the store shelf level.

If it looks like there's no ammo, it's because somebody is shopping in all the wrong places. It's like trying to buy a two pack of toilet paper - change your package size and you discover there's a lot of it out there.

xfyrfiter
March 1, 2014, 12:16 PM
A lot of the shortage can also be attributed to the fact that there are a few avid shooters that can't afford to buy a case, or a pallet, of ammo at once. I would love to be able to afford a pallet of Eley or 10X etc. but I have other obligations , so I buy what I can afford, when it is available, and accordingly have cut back on my shooting.

theotherwaldo
March 1, 2014, 01:38 PM
Just imagine:
-If every vehicle ever made had a proprietary fuel tank that had to be refilled (usually by a factory) with a proprietary fuel in a proprietary way... .

So I reload.

CoalTrain49
March 2, 2014, 12:40 AM
In the real world there will always be plenty of cartridges. New ones come along every year and somebody buys the gun with the new cartridge because it's a little more of this or a little less of that. Two or three companies will make ammo for it for awhile until sales drop off. Then maybe only one company makes ammo for it occasionally and the price doubles. It is then regarded as a boutique cartridge and you either reload or you don't shoot it very much.

There are really only 10 or so popular rifle cartridges and maybe 10 handgun cartridges. The rest are just there for something different and new gun sales.

Buying a gun is easy, buying ammo isn't. The ammo situation will continue to be the biggest problem and the ammo companies will stop production of the more uncommon cartridges completely sooner or later. Prices for once fired brass are going up for uncommon cartridges right now.

This is just my personal observation. I reload one of those uncommon cartridges.

bracer
March 2, 2014, 09:36 AM
When ever a cartridge comes out with a different size base new wildcat rounds will be developed. Some wildcat cartridges will become commercial . That has ben going on for years. The 30-06 has had the neck resized to 27, 25, and other diameter necks == 25-06 Rem 270 Win. The shorter 300 Savage round (same base as the 06) body was changed a bit and the 308 Winchester became very popular . Change the neck diameter and body a bit of the 308 Win and the 243 Win cartridge came out with a bunch of other calibers. It dident take the wildcat cartridges developers very long to use the 222 Rem base size case and the commercial 222 Rem Mag case to come out with some fine rounds . I like the 17 Fireball, 223 Rem, 204 Ruger which has the same base diameter as the good old 222 Rem. As long as there are wildcat developers we can have a good selection of Many Different Cartridges..

Tirod
March 3, 2014, 09:49 AM
The OP's question then goes to, why be limited in access to finished ammo and subject to the whims of a fickle public? Look at the .22 situation right now - it's for sale, but you have to jump thru hoops to find it at retail, and that means purchasing it before it will even get to the shelf. Hence, the line at Walmart on "Ammo Morning."

No difference whatsoever to the Cabbage Patch doll craze. We'd get a shipment in at the retailer I worked at, the land lines would start ringing after the first sale, in three hours they would be gone. The resourceful consumers who made an effort to network with like minded people got into their cars and made an effort.

They didn't complain about it not being their next week Wednesday if and when they might swing by to pick up a gallon of milk and loaf of bread. That is a recipe for failure during high demand times.

So, those complaining the most are really directing their anger at others who have more resources and cash, who can buy the ammo by being in line first. No different than showing up at the grocery store prepping for a hurricane to discover the shelves bare. Somebody needs to elevate their priority - or get used to doing without.

First come, first served. Cash talks. Don't ask if they can hold a box for you. Not happening. It's presumptuous to think you could jump ahead in line, even more so to place an exceptionally large order at numerous outlets to influence supply. All that happens is that demand increases - not the amount they are already shipping. Retailers and makers expect most of those orders to cancel later. They have the actual numbers. They are not going to increase production for ghost purchases. That is a recipe for disaster, they know better.

It's really about a lack of knowledge about economics and factory production. Just because someone wants something doesn't mean the rules of fair play require others to cater to their needs. It's the unspoken retail policy, the customer always thinks he's right.

Don't limit yourself to hard-to-obtain calibers and a restricted supply. Again, during the first Obamascare, all the traditional calibers were frequently on the shelf. It was the military calibers in short supply. This time, once the dust settled on the first wave of buying, did you notice what calibers showed back up first? Go look in the ammo shelves right now at a better stocked store.

I may not be able to get .223, .308, or 9mm, but I can buy 6.8SPC, 6.5Grendel, and .38 Special. They aren't that popular.

That's where the expression, observe the masses, do the opposite protects you. Kit out in a cartridge they don't find obsessively popular, and you will be able to buy it. Don't restrict your purchasing to a highly restricted source that can presently sell only one to three boxes at a time. Order online. Reload.

Break the chain of dependency and you are no longer enthralled to heel at the foot of the makers. Very few people like owning a car they are forced to only get parts and service at the dealer. Learn to fix it yourself, and dig for sources. They are out there. I can't tell you how many times a week I suggest buying parts from the salvage yard and consumers give me a quizzical look. They are trapped in a retail world of new, new, new.

The real issue is when we deliberately choose something that only appears to elevate our status by it's rarity. Later, we discover that we've sold our soul to the company store to keep it running. Nobody forces us to do it. The reality is that we get seduced by marketing. It's really just desserts for playing to our ego.

Those of us shooting one of the 4990 other calibers don't have a major problem with ammo supply right now. It's the masses trapped in dependency who do.

gym
March 3, 2014, 06:57 PM
Personally I think that if you can load your own, you should be able to get any caliber gun you want. But does it pay for ammo companies to keep making some of the calibers that hardly anyone uses anymore? I think not, and if it somehow monopolizes equipment that could be used on making ammo for the great majority of us, then it's kind of a nuisance other than to those few who use it. But thee things have a way of working themselves out.
Survival of the fittest. Or in this case the most popular. If you can make your own ammo for some of these oddball sizes you won't have a problem.
That's why I stick to 45 ACP and 9mm, and 223/556, and 12 gauge for long guns. I really don't hunt, but in a pinch could use slugs or the AR. If I were younger perhaps a 308 or a 338 Lapaua Magnum,, just for long range sniping.

browningguy
March 3, 2014, 08:06 PM
Variety is the spice...

Tirod
March 4, 2014, 10:38 AM
The ammo makers might be cutting back on a few rare cartridge loadings, but they aren't cutting off an entire type. They would just lose market share to another maker who does offer it.

Competition keeps a lot of them on the shelf, but strangely enough, they sell. That is because there are buyers who want it. As long as there are working older firearms that need the ammo, the makers will sell it.

Same for car parts - just because Pontiac, Mercury, and Suzuki aren't on the market anymore, it doesn't mean there's no parts to sell. Far from it. Limiting yourself to the most common calibers because "they" might stop making them is far fetched and faulty justification.

"They" have been making .30-30 all along, a really old cartridge. .270 Winchester came out in 1925. .30-06? .303? I could name dozens.

Basing a cartridge on it being in common use by LEO's and military has some pro's, but the con's of it being entirely unavailable in a panic seems to be getting ignored in that conversation. And taking it to the next step, those that think it will be laying around free for the taking have to assume two conditions: they are still alive at the end of the firefight, and that it wasn't left behind booby trapped to kill them.

Very few armies deliberately leave ammo lying around. You are taught to retrieve it and pass it around. Your buddy doesn't need it anymore, you do. It's NOT a video game where you run to a wall locker and stock up. Nope. Complete fantasy. You run out of ammo, you are now a defenseless target.

What the real motivator of using "issue" cartridges goes to is having the same thing. "I have it, too, so I must be equal to you!" Entirely the reason aggressive perps choose handguns the same or similar to what their local PD uses. It's a status ploy. Really nothing to do with having better or superior firepower.

If it boils down to that, it's embracing parity, and not taking advantage of a tactical edge. I question that. We all (should) know not to show up at a gun fight with a knife, but how many do show up with just a gun? Why leave the rifle in the rack?

You use a gun to fight to your rifle, right?

Why keep choosing the same cartridge "they" have? Choose what you need to shoot your specific target at the ranges you plan on encountering it. What range, what target should drive the decision making for that firearm more than "it's cheap and popular and everybody is shooting it."

Cheap is exactly that, surplus and reject in many cases. Are we buying a cartridge because of financial reasoning? Reload.

Observe the masses, do the opposite.

Sam1911
March 4, 2014, 10:56 AM
You use a gun to fight to your rifle, right?
No. That's one of those "truthy" statements that only makes the most superficial kind of sense. The idea that a civilian in the peacetime USA would find him- or herself in a shooting situation wherein they would engage bad guys with a sidearm, retreat (or advance? ... maneuver, at least) to a supply position, retrieve another more potent weapon, and carry on the fight is so far-fetched as to boarder on insulting to serious-minded students of violent encounters.

We aren't in post-apocalyptic times, and even those who live in borderlands frequented by drug traffickers would be incredibly hard-pressed to point to situations where they'd literally fight their way back to a long-gun and engage in a firefight with some invading gang.

I don't mean to be overly blunt, but that's one of those "old saws" lifted from military combat jargon (and the plots of our beloved knuckle-dragging action films of the '80s) and blindly misapplied to civilian self-defense in a way that can't possibly help anyone understand that important subject any better.

I'd really like to see that one go the way of the "throwdown gun" and "drag them back inside," "shoot, shove, and shut-up" and other great maxims of jingoistic misinformation.

benEzra
March 4, 2014, 11:57 AM
It would probably be worse if everyone had the same caliber. Then you would be competing with everyone for ammo. As it stands you are only competing with those who shoot the same thing as you do.

This. My local Walmart has plenty of ammo in niche calibers, but the more common calibers (.22LR, 9mm, .223) are gone.

zoom6zoom
March 4, 2014, 12:21 PM
Not all of those cartridges are in constant production. A lot of them are only done in infrequent production runs, sometimes every other year or so it it's lower on the sales chart. And then there are the ones that are strictly the province of the reloaders. I have some in my collection that haven't been commercially produced for decades.

huntsman
March 4, 2014, 12:40 PM
The great thing about life is you pays your money you takes your chances. To me less is more but having choices IS the American way, will that continue in the future? I don't believe so and that's why I have just a few standard calibers.

Wil Terry
March 4, 2014, 12:44 PM
YOU SIR, are in dire need of a fresh copy of ' CARTRIDGES OF THE WORLD' in which all those questions are answered, and ALL cartridges came along for a reason.

CoalTrain49
March 4, 2014, 01:49 PM
No. That's one of those "truthy" statements that only makes the most superficial kind of sense. The idea that a civilian in the peacetime USA would find him- or herself in a shooting situation wherein they would engage bad guys with a sidearm, retreat (or advance? ... maneuver, at least) to a supply position, retrieve another more potent weapon, and carry on the fight is so far-fetched as to boarder on insulting to serious-minded students of violent encounters.

We aren't in post-apocalyptic times, and even those who live in borderlands frequented by drug traffickers would be incredibly hard-pressed to point to situations where they'd literally fight their way back to a long-gun and engage in a firefight with some invading gang.

I don't mean to be overly blunt, but that's one of those "old saws" lifted from military combat jargon (and the plots of our beloved knuckle-dragging action films of the '80s) and blindly misapplied to civilian self-defense in a way that can't possibly help anyone understand that important subject any better.

I'd really like to see that one go the way of the "throwdown gun" and "drag them back inside," "shoot, shove, and shut-up" and other great maxims of jingoistic misinformation.

Well stated. I'm a pistol guy. I don't believe in the gov't take over/roving bands of looters scenarios that I see in the movies. I'm not saying it can't happen but I'm old enough to know that the chances are about the same as dying in a plane crash. I've got more pressing things to worry about.

Sam1911
March 4, 2014, 02:09 PM
Well, I'll be the first to acknowledge that if you are a person who's duties or vocation, or even some specialized situation as a civilian requires you to go armed with a long gun, then the idea of "fighting your way back to your rifle, that you shouldn't have left behind makes perfect sense.

But as workaday citizens going about our lives, rifles aren't part of our daily accouterments, and the sorts of violent encounters we as citizens are going to encounter must be solves with the weapons we have on hand at the moment. The idea that we've failed somehow if we don't have a rifle in reach is ludicrous. The idea that we might retreat to some place where that rifle is, and then re-enter the fight is suggestive of very bad ideas regarding the law and use of force.

jbrown50
March 4, 2014, 04:47 PM
No. That's one of those "truthy" statements that only makes the most superficial kind of sense. The idea that a civilian in the peacetime USA would find him- or herself in a shooting situation wherein they would engage bad guys with a sidearm, retreat (or advance? ... maneuver, at least) to a supply position, retrieve another more potent weapon, and carry on the fight is so far-fetched as to boarder on insulting to serious-minded students of violent encounters.

We aren't in post-apocalyptic times, and even those who live in borderlands frequented by drug traffickers would be incredibly hard-pressed to point to situations where they'd literally fight their way back to a long-gun and engage in a firefight with some invading gang.

I don't mean to be overly blunt, but that's one of those "old saws" lifted from military combat jargon (and the plots of our beloved knuckle-dragging action films of the '80s) and blindly misapplied to civilian self-defense in a way that can't possibly help anyone understand that important subject any better.

I'd really like to see that one go the way of the "throwdown gun" and "drag them back inside," "shoot, shove, and shut-up" and other great maxims of jingoistic misinformation.
I think it was an old Clint Smith quote that people just took and ran with (ie: "A handgun is for fighting your way to your rifle which you shouldn't have put down in the first place"). It was meant to apply to LEOs who could carry a long gun in their cars/cruisers.

mgmorden
March 4, 2014, 05:04 PM
The thing is, there are only a dozen or so "standard" ones that the manufacturer's care about in a crunch. When things really get hairy you can bet that about all they'll be making in any quantity are:

.22LR
12ga
20ga
.223 Remington
.243 Winchester
.308 Winchester
7mm-08 Remington
.30-06 Springfield
.270 Winchester
7mm Rem Mag
.380 ACP
9x19 Luger
.40 S&W
.45 ACP
.38 Special
.357 Magnum

Despite the myriad of other cartridges out there everything else will take a back seat.

Agsalaska
March 4, 2014, 09:09 PM
A few thought.

1. Three different areas of the world account for about 98% of that. USA, USSR, and Western Europe. That is one reason for the redundancy.
2. If the world took that approach, a lot of development would have ended with the 30-06, a 100 year old invention.
3. Guns last a lifetime, and in order to get people to buy more manufacturers have to shake things up.
4. The idea that the shortages would be lessoned if there were less options is false. In fact it is the opposite. Variety ensures availability.
5. If the world thought that way, why are there so many options for golf clubs, or bikes, or bullets.
6. I understand gun ownership was highly restricted(though not completely) in the USSR. That being said, the Soviets essentially did exactly what you suggest.
7. Free market.

Agsalaska
March 4, 2014, 09:11 PM
The thing is, there are only a dozen or so "standard" ones that the manufacturer's care about in a crunch. When things really get hairy you can bet that about all they'll be making in any quantity are:

.22LR
12ga
20ga
.223 Remington
.243 Winchester
.308 Winchester
7mm-08 Remington
.30-06 Springfield
.270 Winchester
7mm Rem Mag
.380 ACP
9x19 Luger
.40 S&W
.45 ACP
.38 Special
.357 Magnum

Despite the myriad of other cartridges out there everything else will take a back seat.
Replace 7-08 with 30-30 and I agree with you.

mgmorden
March 4, 2014, 10:04 PM
Replace 7-08 with 30-30 and I agree with you.

I wouldn't replace it, but .30-30 is one that deserves to be on the list and just slipped my mind.

javjacob
March 5, 2014, 02:59 AM
I agree there is a excess of choices. dozens of different rounds that are almost identical. I don't believe a cartridge should be discontinued unless there is pretty much no demand for it anymore. lots of dying rounds that are still made. one that comes to mind is 22 long... not 22 long rifle... 22 long.

Mike1234567
March 5, 2014, 12:38 PM
While I like choices/variety...

In my area I can easily get by with a beefy .22 cal pellet rifle, .223 Rem and .30-06 Sprg plus (for HD) 12ga and 9mm Lug. These could easily be replaced by innumerable combinations of others but I chose them for ease of finding factory loads and prices of the same. My current, and likely forever, financial situation has forced me to be far more frugal.

mavracer
March 5, 2014, 01:48 PM
And even if you hunted every animal on the continent, you wouldn't need more than 7-10 different cartridges.
Not just hunting but I could include SD/HD and most anything else I could think of with that many. And I could get by with guns and cartridges designed over 100 years ago.

javjacob
March 6, 2014, 03:34 AM
Whats crazy is how many people have so many different deer hunting rifles. I know everyone has their own preference so that explains the mass of options but who needs a dozen different deer rifle cartridges? There are so many different 30 caliber cartridges that all fill the same niche so why would 1 person own a dozen different guns that all serve the same purpose? Why do you need a 30-06 and a 308 and a 300 win-mag ...ect?

I know with me I have a gun or maybe 2 for every niche and I am kind of attached to my guns, you know when you have a favorite gun. You end up shooting 1 more than the others. Say if I had a 30-06, a 308 and a 300 win-mag and I liked the 30-06 best why would I want the 308 and the 300 win-mag just sitting in the gun safe? I just going to grab the 30-06 every time because its my favorite.

morcey2
March 6, 2014, 11:39 AM
Why do you need a 30-06 and a 308 and a 300 win-mag ...ect?

I know with me I have a gun or maybe 2 for every niche and I am kind of attached to my guns, you know when you have a favorite gun. You end up shooting 1 more than the others. Say if I had a 30-06, a 308 and a 300 win-mag and I liked the 30-06 best why would I want the 308 and the 300 win-mag just sitting in the gun safe? I just going to grab the 30-06 every time because its my favorite.

Why does need have anything to do with it? I have 6 "deer rifles" at the moment. 2 in 30-06, 2 in 7x57, 1 in 8x57, and 1 in 257 Roberts. The first 5 completely overlap in terms of capability. Do I "need" all 6? It depends on who's defining "need.". I define what I need, so yes, I need all 6. Which is my favorite? I dunno. At the moment, the 257 bob, but not by much.

All of them (with the exception of the Savage in 30-06 that I just picked up) get shot often.

Be careful trying to decide what someone else "need"s. You start projection your own priorities and thought-processes on to the other person and that is almost never correct.

If you do have a 308 and 300 WM in your safe, you "need" to shoot them more often. :)

Matt

javjacob
March 6, 2014, 01:33 PM
Dang man no need to get all offended. I just stated my view and asked why? Sorry I hurt your feelings.

savanahsdad
March 6, 2014, 02:42 PM
much of the overlap out there is do to competition Rem-v-Win , one trying to out do the other , yet in many cases they both stuck around , one may be more common but both are available , 6mmRem and 243Win the 32Rem and the 32Win Spl. and in those two cases the Rem was the better round but the Win won out, you can still get 3 of then off the shelf ,but you need to handload for the 32Rem, or take a look at the 25's all fast a flat shooters with high BC's, but never got the big following that the 7mm's or the 30's got , I got a 25WSSM ,as for the round, it don't fill any real gap, but it dose work in an AR15 where the others don't ,so in that one case it's about the gun not the round ,

280 v 284 v 7mm or 243 v 6mm, why, ? because the makers were all trying to win and get there cut of the pie , and in many cases the winner was not the better round and some times even with the same maker ,what you would think would stick around doesn't, take the 270WSM , 7mmWSM and the 300WSM , I would have thought the one in the middle would be the most common , and I would have been wrong, yet ammo for all 3 are on the shelves but no new guns for the 7mmWSM

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