What would cause a Kimber slide stop to fall off?


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Richard2003
April 1, 2004, 11:26 PM
I shot my first .45 today a Kimber BP 10 that I traded for.
While shooting it the slide stop fell off.
The guy at the range got it back on and he didn't know why it came off.
What could cause that?

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lycanthrope
April 2, 2004, 12:24 AM
It's a series II issue.........

Just kidding. :)


Did the stop fall off or did it just back out? Some loose stops can back out while shooting or getting bumped from the right side and not being seated fully.

If it didn't do it again, I'd wager it just wasn't seated fully and worked out under recoil.

Stasher1
April 2, 2004, 08:01 AM
You've just experienced the first of many problems directly related to Kimber's use of low-quality, out of spec, MIM parts. You'll get used to it...

1911Tuner
April 2, 2004, 08:10 AM
Dang! It's like somebody held up a cue card or somethin...:D

Hal
April 2, 2004, 08:26 AM
What could cause that?
6 little things -
K-I-M-B-E-R

For the life of me I can't even begin to understand why Kimber has done nothing to address their 2 biggest problems:
- Magazines.
- Slide Stops.

:confused: :confused:

I belonged to the now defunct Kimber mail list years ago. Same complaints then as now,,,slide stops,,magazines.

I own 2 Kimbers, they are GREAT shooters. I doubt if I'd ever own another one though. There's better out there for the same or even less money.

BluesBear
April 2, 2004, 08:37 AM
Maybe they should just change their name to MIMber?

:neener:

The slide stop falling out is NOT a defect. It is merely an undocumented feature.

1911Tuner
April 2, 2004, 08:43 AM
Richard said:

The guy at the range got it back on and he didn't know why it came off

Okay...At first I thought it had broken off at the frame. If it fell out/off,
it may not have been in correctly, or it could be that either the top
of the outer part of the lug is out of spec and slipping past the slide rail, OR...the bottom lug on the barrel is bearing harder on one side and causing it to walk out.

Hard for me to see how you could have missed the slidestop comin' out of the frame, though...:scrutiny: It woulda stuck out like a sore toe before it
exited. Hmmmmm...

Standin' by for more input on this'un...

Tuner

HSMITH
April 2, 2004, 08:52 AM
Is there any chance the shooter in this one is left handed? I've seen where the support side thumb will push on the slide stop and the slide stop will pop out on cycling, this happened with a left handed shooter using left thumb on top of the right thumb down the frame. It is one of those things that isn't very common but it can happen.

cratz2
April 2, 2004, 01:23 PM
I'm not one to call BS at the drop of a hat, but I find it difficult envisioning a scenario nin which a completely intact slide stop would fall out of a 1911 only to be reinserted and shooting resuming with no problems.

Without breakage, it would have to come out in almost full recoil and if the post wasn't broken, it would have to moveat least 1/4 of an inch for the little slide cut out to clear the slide at exactly the right time.

Granted, we haven't seen the slide stop and Richard2003 doesn't seem to be very knowledgable of 1911s or else he would have replaced it himself. Maybe the slide stop is damaged. That would surprise me far less than a perfectly good slide stop just falling out.

bountyhunter
April 2, 2004, 02:21 PM
I have heard a few similar stories. It's possible it walks out a touch and then the shooter bumps it with his thumb. I believe the fix is either a new slide stop (duhhh) or drill a very shallow hole on the face of it where the detent ball can nestle into when it's in it's firing position. Don't go too deep or it may have trouble locking back the slide on last round fired. I'll bet Tuner has re-worked the end of a slide stop before and knows how to do it.

1911Tuner
April 2, 2004, 02:43 PM
Howdy Bountyhunter,

I've dimpled a few slidestops to stop premature lockback, when it seemed to be the only way out...but never to keep one in the frame. I'm still
studyin' on this one...

For a left-handed shooter, it's possible to bump it out far enough to
tie up the gun...Also for a right-handed shooter if the bottom lug is
catty-wampus on the pin, or if the top of the lug is out of spec and
can get past the slide when it's not in the takedown notch. (Easy to
test for. Just put the gun in battery and push on the end of the stop.
If it's bad, it'll go right past the slide.)

A crooked pin will do it too...One that's not perpendicular to the arm,
but the problem would be fairly obvious with an eyeball check. Either
the back end or the top/bottom of the arm would be set away from the frame, or the arm would be in a bind with the frame on the back, depending on which direction it was bent.

I'd think that in order for the whole thing to fall out, it would almost
have to walk out gradually until it was at the point that it would go...and
the stop hangin' off the side of the frame an inch or so would tend to gt your attention.

At this point, I'm wonderin' if Richard means the thumb safety and not the slidestop. If the stop came out in mid-string, the top end of the gun would
likely come nearly off the frame...and he didn't make mention of that. I've
heard guys who weren't too well up on the pistol call the safety the stop....I guess because it locks the slide when it's engaged, though
I've never seen a thumb safety fall out either unless it was broken.

What say you, Richard? Was the part in the middle or at the rear of the gun? This one's a poser, fer sure.

Standin' by...
Tuner

Richard2003
April 2, 2004, 04:40 PM
Yes I am left handed.
And it was the slide stop.
I almost bought a new one (the range does gunsmithing) and I went back and found it on the ground.
I noticed the slide hard to rack on the 3rd mag I shot.
It was after the last shot that it didn't lock back and then I noticed it missing.
Rich

<<<Is there any chance the shooter in this one is left handed? I've seen where the support side thumb will push on the slide stop and the slide stop will pop out on cycling, this happened with a left handed shooter using left thumb on top of the right thumb down the frame. It is one of those things that isn't very common but it can happen.

1911Tuner
April 2, 2004, 04:57 PM
Okay...

The slide issue was comin' from the lug tryin' to get by the slide and
was in a bind. It must have hit the takedown notch at just the right time.
Weird! Never saw one come completely out.

Your southpaw-ness might be a contributor, and the fix is to grind the
end of the pin off to make it nearly flush with the frame...Some smiths
take it all the way down and cut a dimple in it so you can use a drift
to remove it, but I've found that leaving just a little above the side of the
frame works just as well, and still gives you a little to push when takedown time comes. Be sure to have the lug checked for damage...It could have
gotten a little beat up as it came past the slide.

Hope this helps...

Tuner

BluesBear
April 2, 2004, 06:20 PM
Was a pertintent fact omitted? :scrutiny:
And it was the slide stop... and I went back and found it on the ground.
If the slide stop,
this piece right here
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=912499
came out, the slide, barrel, barrel bushing, recoil spring and recoil spring plunger should have been on the floor as well. :what:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=912490
(That's the big part with all the writin' on it as well as what's inside it.)

That's, in essence, ½ of the pistol gone missing. That's the kind of SNAFU that'll get your attention real quick.

1911Tuner
April 2, 2004, 06:54 PM
BuesBear observed:

the slide, barrel, barrel bushing, recoil spring and recoil spring plunger should have been on the floor as well.

Entirely possible...but just as likely that it wouldn't if the last thing the
stop did before squirtin' out was to stop the slide on one side of the lower lug...which makes me wonder about how that part held up...

Another factor that would have kept the top-end on the gun would have been feeding a round into the chamber. That alone brings the slide nearly
to a dead stop just as it goes to battery. Now, take the stop out and let the slide fly on an empty gun...it'll send it about 2 feet off the end of the
frame.

Keep in mind, too...that without the pin, the barel wouldn't go up into vertiical lock, with the resulting drag in the frame and dust cover...

Cheers!

Tuner

Heraclitus
April 2, 2004, 07:13 PM
A problem in the plunger spring assembly, perhaps. In this case, remove the parts, clean the plunger tube, replace the spring, and reassemble.

Suggested reading: http://outlands.tripod.com/armory/1911.htm (Problem #1: The Slide Stop).

Hope this helps.

Monkeyleg
April 2, 2004, 07:41 PM
This probably isn't a Kimber-only issue, since Massad Ayoob tells his students to keep the trigger finger straight, but also "allows" students to keep the finger closer to the trigger guard. His stated reason is that sometimes the finger can push the slide stop out.

I had the stop back out on me during the LFI course, which really brought a smile to Ayoob's face. ;)

1911Tuner
April 2, 2004, 08:01 PM
Ayoob's Statement:

His stated reason is that sometimes the finger can push the slide stop out

I just know I'm gonna start a cuss-fight here, but if the slidestop backs out under the pressure of a straight finger with the slide in battery...somethin's
way YONDER wrong with the gun or the stop...:scrutiny:

As I write this, I'm sittin' here with a circa 1918 pistol with the original slide and stop(demonstratin' the fact to a friend who just walked in and read this) pushin' so hard it hurts the end of my finger...and I can't get the stop to back out.

I'd say ya oughta look at gettin' that fixed before it takes ya down
"The Highway of no Return.":uhoh:

Cheers!

Tuner

Old Fuff
April 2, 2004, 09:23 PM
I have been following this thread with some amusement. In my experience you can’t “push out” or “drop off” a slide stop unless something is defective or way out of dimension. Of course this presumes that the gun was correctly assembled in the first place, and maybe that’s asking too much. But given the way guns are put together these days, and because I can’t examine the pistol in question I’ll pass judgment. Anyway, I hope someone takes the gun to somebody who knows what they are doing and has it examined or repaired before they try and shoot it again. Who knows what may fly off next?

cratz2
April 2, 2004, 11:13 PM
It is a puzzle... But I take back my BS claim... I guess if the shaft were considerably thinner than spec AND there was considerable pressure on the right side of the stop while shooting and the gun was under full recoil AND the shooter didn't notice that the stop got pushed beyond the point where the slide keeps in place, then a few rounds past that AND the shooter happened to notice the slide stop fall out before taking the next shot... Maybe.

The odds of this must be astronomical though... Like I said, a broken stop, sure. But a healthy slide stop falling out with no other obvious failures... impressive.

Monkeyleg
April 3, 2004, 12:45 AM
1911Tuner, I have no idea why Ayoob has been giving that advice.But that advice goes back many years, perhaps decades.

You're the resident expert, though, so I defer to your knowlege.

Majic
April 3, 2004, 02:00 AM
Lesson number one: Mr Ayboob has been giving advise that no one has made sense of before. He is an expert in is own mind. Just ask him.

1911Tuner
April 3, 2004, 06:49 AM
Majic said:

Lesson number one: Mr Ayboob has been giving advise that no one has made sense of before.

Ayboob...heh heh heh:D heh heh heh:D heh heh heh:D

Ayoob is one of those guys who picks a style, grip techinque, or stance
apart to see if he can find anything that works better. He's concerned with
givin' you the best chance of keepin' Murphy outta the incident. Can't
fault him for that...

What LIKELY happened is that a southpaw shooter in his class had a slidestop problem, and mas noticed that he put pressure on the end of the pin with his thumb. omebody suggested grinding the pin down a little,
and it worked. Mas goes: "AHA!" ...and starts lookin' at a way to keep it from happening to anybody...right-handed or left...He figures that the
straight finger could contact the pin, and starts to warn his students about it because he doesn't really understand that the southpaw's stop was
comin' through the takedown notch because of the CONSTANT tension on the pin when the slide cycled. Static and in-battery, the stop shouldn't
come out. Cycling without anything bearing on the end of the pin, the stop shouldn't back out. If it does in either situation, it should be fixed.

Monkeyleg...I wasn't tryin' to hold your feet to the fire, mah fren...I was
just a little concerned that maybe your pistol needed attention to keep it
from chokin' on ya when you need it to work. Push on the end of the
stop pin with the slide in battery. If it doesn't pop out, you're golden.
If it does, get it fixed. It would PROBABLY be the stop itself.

Luck!

Tuner

MaterDei
April 3, 2004, 07:43 AM
I think you guys are over analyzing this way too much. The answer to the problem is found in the original post.
I shot my first .45 today a Kimber BP 10 that I traded for.
Obviously the slide stop was just trying to get as far away as possible from the heritical polymer frame.
:D

1911Tuner
April 3, 2004, 08:22 AM
Mater Dei said:

Obviously the slide stop was just trying to get as far away as possible from the heritical polymer frame.


heh heh heh:p

I think the lad may have nailed it!

Cheers!

Tuner

BluesBear
April 3, 2004, 08:32 AM
I thought I'd experiment.

By pressing on the slide stop there just isn't any way I could push it far enough out while cycling the slide to get it to come out far enough to clear the slide.

So I just removed it.

Loaded the 8 rd magazine with 6 dummy rounds. (that's the orange that shows through the slide stop opening)
Pulled the slide back as far as the takedown notch and let her fly. This was to simulate the slide stop escaping on the loading stroke.
It went forward far enough that firing would be impossible, stopping either right on top of or just barely clearing the disconnector. I did this four times.

So next, I loaded another 6 in the mag, I pulled the slide fully rearward. This can only be accomplished by pushing down on the barrel through the ejection port. Otherwise the barrel won't drop down to unlock. After pulling if fully rearward I let go. This was to simulate the slide stop dropping like a cheap prom dress on the ejection stroke.
The slide assembly only went about 3/16" past the disconnector. I also did this 4 times.

The photo shows the results of the second test.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=913587

So it looks like the slide assembly won't take off for parts unknown but it would be impossible to not realize that something has seriously gone awry.

But the most important thing I learned from this is that I really need to clean the glass on my scanner.

1911Tuner
April 3, 2004, 09:18 AM
BluedBear! Mah fren! Once again you've shown that a logical mind
doesn't simply accpet what is said...It strives for answers, and seeks to
prove or disprove a theory by puttin' it to the test.

I had a heated debate once over whether the slidestop actually STOPS
the slide, or merely positions it. I guess that, after all is said and
done though..."Slidestop" sounds better than "Slide Overtravel Prevention
Device.":D

My experiment provided about the same results as yours, BTW...

Kudos!

Tuner

BluesBear
April 3, 2004, 10:29 AM
This can also demonstrate why it's bad to drop the slide on an empty chamber.

When I did the same test without a magazine in the gun the slide assembly flew about 2½ feet off the end of the slide.

This demonstrates that stripping a round from the magazine does indeed slow the slide appreciably. The slide slamming on an empty chamber creats a much greater impact that has to be absorbed somewhere.


Note... I only did this test twice and the recoil spring did NOT kink either time.

1911Tuner
April 3, 2004, 10:59 AM
BluesBear's Observation:

This demonstrates that stripping a round from the magazine does indeed slow the slide appreciably.

yep...And keep in mind too, that with the slidestop absent, the lower lug won't cam up on the pin...which means that since the barrel won't move
upward, the incoming round has a straighter shot at the chamber, and
meets with less resistance than if the pin were there.

To get back on topic, and try to figure out what happened to Richard's
gun...About the only thing that I can figure is that the stop walked out
gradually, and he didn't notice it. At the point that it was barely far enough
in the frame to keep the slide from takin' off, one side of the lower lug
spit it the rest of the way out just as the slide went to battery.

Richard...sorry for goin' off on a tangent here. Check your slidestop
by pushin' on the end of the pin with the gun in battery. If it won't pop
out, the specs are likely okay. If you are touching the pin with your
firing technique, file the radiused end of the pin close to flush with the frame. It'll make it a little more trouble to field-strip, but will keep you
from inadvertently knockin' it out of place during a string.

The court imposes sentence of 10 minutes hard labor with a smooth mill file.

*rap* Next case!

Judge Roy TunerBean

Bainx
April 3, 2004, 02:46 PM
For the life of me I can't even begin to understand why Kimber has done nothing to address their 2 biggest problems:

It's simple. Called the "Quarterly Balance Sheet".

If profits are at a maximum or near, don't do a dog-gone thing!
If profits are down, try to find a new "gimick" or [God forbid], try to find the problem with your product and fix it.

Same as McDonalds. They have tried everything EXCEPT improving the quality of their food.

Go figure

BluesBear
April 3, 2004, 04:48 PM
I noticed the slide hard to rack on the 3rd mag I shot.
The stop could have been working itself loose at that point. It might have moved just far enough to the left to be rubbing the slide. If it stayed in that position for very long the slide would start to "mill" it flat.

It was after the last shot that it didn't lock back and then I noticed it missing.
On the last shot the slide should have departed. Or at least come to rest so far forward as to be obvious.

1911Tuner
April 3, 2004, 05:36 PM
BluesBear! Good call! Right on target!

TunerBean

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