Reduced shot loads through a suppressor


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barnetmill
March 2, 2014, 10:45 PM
I and at least one other are looking for a legal and most economical manner of suppressing the sound of either a 9mm rimfire garden gun (1/4 oz or shot at 600 fps) or a very reduced load in a .410 shotgun. Goal is to kill garden pests without annoying the neighbors with the noise and having a load that has very reduced range and danger at a distance. Animals on the hit list are possums, armadillos, possibly raccoons (My bulldogs can finish these off), water moccasins, rabbits. The bigger pests like coyotes, etc will need other means to dispatch them.

I have seen these oil filter adaptors on the market and was wondering if these were capable of fulfilling my objectives. A noise equivalent to a pellet gun is ok. I am not an expert in suppressors. I have seen one on a 10/22 that if you held the bolt closed was absolutely silent and do not expect that sort of suppression.
So what do the knowledgeable people here think about suppressor in general on a reduce loaded small bore shotgun and oil filter suppressor in particular?

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Theohazard
March 3, 2014, 03:02 AM
Unfortunately, with an oil filter suppressor you're not allowed to change out the filters yourself; not unless you want to commit a federal felony. The BATFE regulates what it considers "silencer parts"; when you attach an oil filter to an adapter the filter becomes a silencer part. And just as it's illegal for the user to change out the baffles on a normal suppressor, if you change out the oil filter on an oil filter suppressor you're breaking federal law and you're eligible for 10 years in federal prison and a $250,000 fine. The only way you can legally change the filter is to send the whole thing back to the manufacturer or another properly licensed company.

Also, shotguns are not normally used as silenced weapons. I'm somewhat of a silencer enthusiast; I have lots of personal experience with silencers and I worked at a large silencer dealer for a few years. But I have zero experience with silenced shotguns because they're just not very common. From what I understand, the main problem with silencing a shotgun is baffle strikes caused by the wad and errant pellets.

It sounds like you need a suppressed .22; that's pretty much as quiet as you can get and still take out the animals you listed. The two best .22 suppressors on the market are the Silencerco Sparrow and the SWR (Silencerco) Spectre II. Out of a pistol, most .22 ammo will be subsonic and will be super-quiet, especially if you hold the bolt closed.

If you want to be able to shoot 9mm also, try the SWR (Silencerco) Octane; they make in it 9mm and .45 ACP. It's basically the same design as the Spectre II, only bigger. And, surprisingly, it's actually quieter with .22 than any .22 silencer on the market. A bigger silencer designed for bigger calibers isn't always quieter when you use it with .22, but the Octane definitely is; I've tried my Octane 9 on a .22 back-to-back with a Spectre II -- which is one of the quietest dedicated .22 suppressors on the market -- and the Octane was noticeably quieter. And unlike most other center-fire pistol cans on the market, the Octane is still easy to take apart and clean even when leaded up from .22; the Osprey can't be taken apart and the Ti-Rant has a baffle design that will be very hard to take apart and clean if it's leaded up from shooting .22 through it.

barnetmill
March 3, 2014, 09:04 AM
.22 is not an option due to safety concerns and I can fire low velocity .22 in long barreled rifles without causing too much of a noise problem.

I was under the impression that it was the adapter in this case that was regulated for this system which required the paper work. I will look further into the legality. I realize that is an unusual question and I will monitor to see if there any other information.
I was under impression with a certain letter it was possible for someone to make their own silencer without going through a person with the correct manufacturers license from ATF.

Thanks for your input.

Edit from ATF
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-silencers.html
May the outer tube of a registered silencer be repaired due to damage? If so, may the repair be done by someone other than the original manufacturer?

A damaged outer tube may be repaired by any Federal firearms licensee qualified to perform gunsmithing or by the registered owner. The repair may not alter the dimensions or caliber of the silencer, except that the length of the outer tube may be reduced, as set forth above. The repair may not be performed if it results in the removal, obliteration, or alteration of the serial number, as this would violate 18 U.S.C. 922(k). In that case, the silencer may be returned to the registered owner in its original, damaged condition or destroyed. A replacement silencer must be registered and transferred to the registrant of the damaged silencer in the same manner as a new silencer, subject to the registration and transfer procedures of the NFA and GCA.

Theohazard
March 3, 2014, 10:57 AM
I was under the impression that it was the adapter in this case that was regulated for this system which required the paper work.
Yes, that's true; the adaptor is the part that you register with the BATFE. But the BATFE also regulates all suppressor parts. For example: my Octane 9 suppressor can be disassembled; it has separate baffles that can be removed. But if one of those baffles is damaged I cannot replace it myself, I have to send the whole suppressor in to the manufacturer. I'm also not allowed to have any extra baffles in my possession.

With oil filter silencers, the BATFE has determined that the filter is legally just like the baffles; you can't change them out yourself. The adapter is supposed to come with one filter that's serialized, and when that filter wears out you need to send the whole thing back to the manufacturer for them to change the filter for you. Most manufacturers only charge about $25 for this.

Keep in mind that you can get some oil filter adapters without any BATFE registration; people sell these adaptors as "solvent traps" to get around the NFA silencer requirements. But if you ever use it as a silencer you're committing a felony.


I was under impression with a certain letter it was possible for someone to make their own silencer without going through a person with the correct manufacturers license from ATF.
Yes, it's not a letter though, it's simply a tax stamp. The process required to build your own silencer is identical to the process required to buy one from a dealer, except you just fill out a slightly different form.

Also, I'm a little confused about that BATFE letter you quoted. That letter is completely irrelevant to any of your questions.

barnetmill
March 3, 2014, 12:33 PM
I am starting to understand a little bit better. I have seen the phrase solvent trap and your explanation does seems to explain that. The feds have been known to seize mailing lists of who ordered what so one does not want to do an internet order of such things. They did obtain mailing lists in that famous case of northwest coast prosecutor that was murdered with a 9mm Mak after market barrel being fired with .380 ACP ammo.
The tricky part of this seems to be a lot definitions that the ATF uses that if you violate them you can be in a lot of trouble. If I follow what you are saying the entire filter is defined as a baffle or some other regulated silencer part and is not the outer tube of the silencer. The quote that I inserted says that you can alter the outer tube within certain restrictions, but does not say that you can replace the internal components of a silencer which apparently the oil filter is.

It looks like this is becoming less and less feasible as a legal project and I would rather annoy the neighbors with a loud bang than get the ATF after me.

Thanks for the information

Sam1911
March 3, 2014, 12:44 PM
Another factor to consider is that in a very great majority of places where you'd have neighbors close by, discharging ANY firearm would be against the law regardless of the use of a silencer. Most incorporated areas, towns, cities, etc., do not allow firearm to be fired, period.

(These laws are generally met by a successful claim of self defense, but not merely for garden pests.)

barnetmill
March 3, 2014, 01:28 PM
Sam:
Another factor to consider is that in a very great majority of places where you'd have neighbors close by, discharging ANY firearm would be against the law regardless of the use of a silencer. Most incorporated areas, towns, cities, etc., do not allow firearm to be fired, period.

(These laws are generally met by a successful claim of self defense, but not merely for garden pests.)
I live in northwest florida and sometimes it is a no-no and other times it is not to fire bulllets that leave your property. Depends in what part of the county you live in and the size of your property here. I hear center fires going off much of the time here. I will check to see what the latest rules are for my particular area. Most important is the rounds do not leave your property. A single shot is more tolerated than a lot of them especially if the neighbors know that it is shot and not a bullet. If it is done at night I can deny any involvement since a witness can not see you. The shot sound could come from anywhere on from the local creek wetlands that I border. Last two times I killed water moccasins I did not use a gun so as to avoid disturbing the neighbors and the 9mm handgun that I was carrying is not the best weapon for a moving snake. A shot cartridge is.

Arizona_Mike
March 3, 2014, 01:28 PM
And another factor is how do you aim at the pests with an oil can hanging off the end of the gun blocking the sights?

This guy claims no baffle strikes when shooting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWo5_zepsCg

Steel baffles can probably take a #12 shot baffle strike (less than 1/4 gr of soft lead per pellet) with no damage. I'd only consider testing it if I had a serious need and I'd use an all steel suppressor like the Sparrow SS.

Mike

barnetmill
March 3, 2014, 02:42 PM
There use to also be airguns that fired shot. But the point is I do not want to spend more on the guns. silencers, and permits for killing pests than the damage that they cause. The oil filter silencer is still not completely out. I have to look for an economical, legal solution to replacement of the filter. The current information is that the adapter and the filter are considered specific regulated components of the tax stamped silencer. It has to go the manufacturer for repairs and probably some paper work. I know at least one person that makes silencers, but he would turn his nose up at such a contraption. I can possibly make it all myself and check with the ATF if I can be allowed to repair it since I made it.
Right now I do not own either a .410 or a 9 mm shotgun. This is all just in the hypothetical stage.
I want better than the .22 #12 birdshot setup in the video. Although I did kill a squirrel with 6 inch barrel revolver with such ammo that was under my eaves. I could find no damage to the eaves afterwards so it impressed to that extent.

rcmodel
March 3, 2014, 02:48 PM
Aguila Colibri .22 CB caps.
Quieter then an air rifle, and will kill the pests you mentioned with head shots.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/2506163096/aguila-colibri-ammunition-22-long-rifle-20-grain-solid-point

rc

Arizona_Mike
March 3, 2014, 02:54 PM
What caliber exactly are you looking to shoot? .410?

Mike

Theohazard
March 3, 2014, 03:12 PM
I can possibly make it all myself and check with the ATF if I can be allowed to repair it since I made it.
Technically, only a manufacturer can change out silencer internals, even on a homemade silencer. But, of course, there are lots of grey areas when it comes to making a silencer: What if you damage a baffle when you're in the process of machining it? What happens if you make all the parts for your silencer and you've made a mistake somewhere and need to rebuild some baffles? These are all small details that I don't know the answer to. That's why calling the BATFE makes sense; there are a lot of technical situations that they've never officially addressed, so it's always a good idea to check with them before you accidentally break the law.

However, what you're looking to do is lot more straightforward: If you Form 1 and make your own oil filter silencer, I'm fairly certain they'll tell you an actual manufacturer still has to be the one to change the filter. Most likely they'll tell you that the only thing you can do yourself is submit another $200 and another Form 1 to build another silencer. But it sure won't hurt to call the BATFE and check.

barnetmill
March 3, 2014, 04:24 PM
What caliber exactly are you looking to shoot? .410?

Mike
If they were not an import item I would go with the 9mm rimfire shotshell. Since I want quiet and available shells, it will most likely be a downloaded .410 shot shells out of a used single shot gun. I am thinking 3/8 oz of # 6 at 600 fps with a very quick burning powder. The next bigger would be a 32 ga which are not common here and then the 28 ga.

Arizona_Mike
March 3, 2014, 08:14 PM
I have not heard of anyone making a .410 silencer but I guess you ould start with a really robust .45cal design.

Mike

barnetmill
March 3, 2014, 08:58 PM
I have not heard of anyone making a .410 silencer but I guess you ould start with a really robust .45cal design.

Mike
If the load is reduced likely the silencer will not be handling a lot of gas or pressure. But it will get wadding and likely errant shot in it.

I will do some more reading. First hit.

People have tried. Here is a link if that is ok with the moderators to 2009 thread at another forum on this topic at shotgunworld: http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=179688

HB
March 4, 2014, 12:42 AM
I would look into a bore extension or an extremely long barrel for a .410. With a subsonic load and a 36"+ barrel it would be pretty quiet I'd imagine. There used to be a device called the Metro Bore Extension but I've only seen them for 12 gauge.

HB

Arizona_Mike
March 4, 2014, 08:49 AM
I wonder what it would take to import one of these British .410 silencers: http://www.hushpower.co.uk/

Mike

barnetmill
March 4, 2014, 08:50 AM
I would look into a bore extension or an extremely long barrel for a .410. With a subsonic load and a 36"+ barrel it would be pretty quiet I'd imagine. There used to be a device called the Metro Bore Extension but I've only seen them for 12 gauge.

HB
If it is what I am thinking about it reduces the report to that of a .22 short. I believe it is legal without ATF paper work since it does not use an outer tube. I will have to look around for how it was designed. It might cost something to build one, but not having to bother with paper work would be worth it. The British apparently have done a bit with silencers on shotguns and perhaps other people overseas. Unlike here where there is a concept of illegal acts, it is often more a thing of good manners other there which is what I am trying to do.

Thanks

Edit: their webpage-http://www.metrogun.com/

HB
March 4, 2014, 10:24 AM
I imagine there are some videos on youtube of the bore extension. Research what it is made of then see if you can get a machinist to thread a 3' section of it for your .410s choke tube.

HB

barnetmill
March 5, 2014, 02:31 PM
I imagine there are some videos on youtube of the bore extension. Research what it is made of then see if you can get a machinist to thread a 3' section of it for your .410s choke tube.

HB
Anything that modulates the sound of a gun must never be done without prior approval of the ATF. Just because it was alright for someone to make one for a 12 and 20 ga guns is not guarantee it will be ok to do it for a .410 without getting into problem. IF you buy something that ATF says is fine than all is well. Make it yourself and maybe that could change unless you do your paper work and pay the $200.
Five feet of barrel and tube would likely be unusable for my purposes after thinking it over. In an open field it would be ok. Not in my heavily wooded brushy areas.

Theohazard
March 5, 2014, 02:56 PM
A bore extension is not considered a silencer by the BATFE. You can extend the barrel on your .410 all you want with no registration and no issues.

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