Vote YES on this poll - Do you think authoraties over reacted to knife?


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hso
March 13, 2014, 07:40 AM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/10/jordan-wiser_n_4921266.html

Teen Jailed 13 Days ... Over A Pocketknife!

VOTE IN THE POLL:

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Do you think Jordan Wiser was overcharged?
Yes

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Sam1911
March 13, 2014, 08:04 AM
Shouldn't be charged with ANYTHING. At all. The principal and vice-principal should both be fired, and the prosecuting attorney should be publicly flogged.

Then we can talk about what to do with the legislators who passed these laws. That's where my reactions would start to get harsh.

olderguns
March 13, 2014, 08:49 AM
I voted yes, looks like most voters think he was over charged, I can,t believe the stupidity of the prosecutor and the school officials.

pretzelxx
March 13, 2014, 09:03 AM
How did those idiots get in any sort of leadership position??? Terrible.

Mp7
March 13, 2014, 10:07 AM
The absence of common sense.

Why are so many people in the US soooo hysterical?

There seems to be an agreement to never do anything
in a balanced, common sense way - on either side of an argument.
Be it the antigunners, the pro-gunners, the Liberals or the teabaggers.

Every point is made in such an exaggerated manner .... :uhoh:

Spec ops Grunt
March 13, 2014, 10:08 AM
Then we can talk about what to do with the legislators who passed these laws. That's where my reactions would start to get harsh.

Tar and feathers anyone?

mole
March 13, 2014, 10:44 AM
I would expect a firefighter or policeman, or those in training, to have a knife. In my mind their lack of a knife would indicate a lack of preparedness and, therefore, possible incompetence. An EMT could probably get by without a knife only because of him having shears. A blade is simply a tool that is needed in those professions. That school should be making recommendations on what characteristics its students should look for in a knife.

Sam1911
March 13, 2014, 10:49 AM
I would expect a housewife, janitor, doctor, teacher, school kid, construction worker, lawyer, ...etc, etc.,, to have a knife. In my mind their lack of a knife would indicate a lack of preparedness and, therefore, possible incompetence.

Really...it's just a knife. A tool every one of us uses at least once a day. What are we THINKING?

Madcap_Magician
March 13, 2014, 11:02 AM
I see a Fourth Amendment case approaching rapidly...

Speedo66
March 13, 2014, 11:36 AM
Just voted, it's 95% yes (overcharged).

Coming from a media outlet with a rather liberal bent and audience, that's a good sign.

hso
March 13, 2014, 01:22 PM
Don't like CRAP like this?

Support Knife Rights and do it generously. They are a dedicated aggressive group and I'm proud to have a single digit member number and to actively work with them.

They absolutely hate the people that imagine, enact, and implement the idiotic laws and they are tryimg to burn each of them out of our laws and lives!

hartcreek
March 13, 2014, 03:29 PM
Lets see....... no search warrant in the first place and the kid is already authorized by his current certifications and the blade length is to short for it to be a conceiled weapon......I smell a big pile of money comeing to this kid from the school and the local idiots that put him in jail with non admissable evidence.

Field Tester
March 13, 2014, 03:55 PM
The SAME exact thing happened to me in High School. Truck searched and BROKEN knife found. My father took responsibility for it (he didn't have to), saying we used it to install my new stereo deck. The lock was broken and the knife could not be opened, the arresting officer still couldn't do it with pilers.

I didn't get a felony, but I was charged. Community service, suspension, probation, fines and all. There was also something added that since the arrest happened a few weeks before my birthday I was charged as a minor but if I broke probation I would he sent to big boy jail. A term of probation was maintaining school standards. Meaning if I screwed up in school at all I could be sent to jail. Over 12 years ago this was and I still get red thinking about it.

ChaoSS
March 13, 2014, 07:35 PM
Stalin called. He wants his prosecutor back in the 1940s.


I hope something happens to that man and the EMTs stand by and watch him suffer.

Deltaboy
March 13, 2014, 07:47 PM
That is way over the top by the Law.

Deltaboy
March 13, 2014, 07:51 PM
Shouldn't be charged with ANYTHING. At all. The principal and vice-principal should both be fired, and the prosecuting attorney should be publicly flogged.

Then we can talk about what to do with the legislators who passed these laws. That's where my reactions would start to get harsh.
As a Public School Employee I agree and I tell kids if your out working before school and forget you brought it to school bring it to me.

ChaoSS
March 13, 2014, 08:26 PM
Really...it's just a knife. A tool every one of us uses at least once a day. What are we THINKING?
The Blaze link to the same story (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/03/12/teen-jailed-for-13-days-after-emt-kit-pocketknife-and-found-in-his-car-and-thats-just-scratching-the-surface-of-jordan-wisers-nightmare/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=story&utm_campaign=ShareButtons)
Specht said he’s aware “there’s a load of people out here that just think we’re the devil because we’re allegedly ruining this young kid’s life,” but he insisted that’s not the case and that the felony charge is justified and there are no plans to reduce the charge.

“There are all these school occurrences where people are shot, people are killed by other students,” Specht said. “We see it every day … so we don’t take these things lightly. … We have to be sure that we don’t have a potential for something like that to happen here.”

THat's what he's thinking. That the school shootings that happen every day (every day, mind you) do not happen when kids take guns into schools and start shooting, they happen when students lock knives in their cars.


I've heard some theories about Sandy Hook, that the gun used wasn't the AR15, so on and whatnot, but this is the first time I've heard the idea that he used a pocketknife locked in his car. Wonder what evidence this guy has....:banghead:



Wiser said the conditions of his bond also prohibit him from having any contact with his grandfather, who is dying from cancer.

"The one judge I went in front of told me to remove any firearms from my parents' house and put them at my grandpa's house," Wiser said. "The next judge freaked out about me even knowing what a gun is and put a no contact order against me and my grandparents. My grandfather is dying right now, and I am not allowed within 500 feet of him."The fact that any judge has this kind of authority is absolutely reprehensible. The only time a no contact order should be legal should be when a victim of a crime requests it.

Sol
March 13, 2014, 09:17 PM
Now now, we all know the rules about schools:

Zero tolerance steps in, common sense and reason exit stage left.

hso
March 13, 2014, 09:17 PM
The prohibition is because of the guns he took to his grandfather's and has nothing to do with the grandfather himself. If the guns went to an uncles or a LGS the same restriction would be applied.

WE need to be bombarding the elected officials responsible for the LE and School with requests for reason to be applied to this case.

jmr40
March 13, 2014, 09:40 PM
As the story is told, yes it was an over reaction. The problem is that we are only hearing one side of the story. As a retired teacher I've been involved in dozens of situations like this. The kids, their parents and lawyers can say anything they wish to the media and on the internet. The schools and LE are not legally able to state any facts publicly.

I have NEVER seen a situation where a truly innocent kid was ever given more than a slap on the wrist. These things happen hundreds of times every day in this country. 99.99% of them are handled discretely with no one other than the kids, their parents, LE and school officials ever being aware of it. I've never known of a case where LE decided to prosecute that the kid didn't deserve what he got. In every case I'm aware of where parents made the case public there were an awful lot of facts that the parents neglect to comment about to the media.

Schools always turn these incidents over to LE to investigate. If LE determine no intent of a crime was there they don't prosecute and hand it back over to the schools. The kids are not allowed back in school for 2-3 days while LE investigate. If LE does decide to prosecute it is no longer a school matter. If it is determined it was a simple mistake the 2-3 days out of school during the investigation is usually about it and that is the end of it.

ugaarguy
March 13, 2014, 09:57 PM
jmr, There are plenty of cases where prosecutors tried to ruin kids lives for mistakes like this and only backed off because of public pressure. There's nothing to indicate this kid deserved any of the treatment he's getting.

ChaoSS
March 13, 2014, 10:04 PM
The prohibition is because of the guns he took to his grandfather's and has nothing to do with the grandfather himself. If the guns went to an uncles or a LGS the same restriction would be applied.

WE need to be bombarding the elected officials responsible for the LE and School with requests for reason to be applied to this case.
I understand that. It still doesn't make it right.

RetiredUSNChief
March 13, 2014, 10:06 PM
Well, I voted "yes" based on the way the story is written.

But I'd sure like to see what actually comes out in court once both sides start speaking.

Of note in this particular article is "The principal said he had reason to believe I had weapons in my vehicle and needed to search it".

jerkface11
March 13, 2014, 10:16 PM
Well that's the dumbest most infuriating thing I've heard all day.

GLOOB
March 13, 2014, 10:55 PM
I reserve judgment, here, as well. The fluff-to-fact ratio in this story is too high. I don't care if the kid was training to be a police officer, or a firefighter (what firefighter training exists for 14-yr-olds, anyway?) or a circus clown. That doesn't matter.

The only two things that matters is 1) Was the search legal? How and why school admin decided that his car needed to be searched. According to the story, someone tipped the administration off to an alarming youtube video. and 2) was the knife illegal? It is referred to (by the kid) as being 4". In many places in OH, it would be illegal to have such a knife accessible in your vehicle.

1) I skimmed the kid's youtube videos for anything alarming, and I didn't find anything. Admittedly, I just browsed the video titles, only. I'm not THAT interested. And I'm sure he removed anything that could be controversial, anyway. And does the admin perhaps have authority to search his vehicle, regardless of a reasonable suspicion? This is what lawyers are for, I guess.

2) legality of said knife:
There are limits on the length of a concealed folding knife in OH. In some places it is 4". In some places it is 2.5" He said his knife is 4", which could mean 4.1", therefore illegal. Since he's not only being kicked out of school, but facing criminal charges, it seems to follow that his knife was not only breaking school rules, but it was illegal, altogether.

He mentions other kids being suspended for knives. I wonder if those kids were observing local law, at least, if not school policy. Maybe they were caught with folding knives that were under the legal limit for that area. Perhaps this is a case where a fraction of an inch made the difference?

< Deleted by moderator >

< Deleted > I was quite the opposite. All I am saying is that I wouldn't press for an EXCEPTION to the law for this one person, just because he wants to be a firefighter or w/e. If he broke the law, and if the evidence was obtained legally, then it's the law that's messed up. Not the application of said law.

So do I think authorities overreacted? Maybe, but look. You are the police. You are called and given evidence of a possible felony. The law is somewhat grey, but then the suspect ADMITS he has committed a felony. Slam dunk. What else is the prosecutor gonna do with a slam dunk? See, if you look at the gun/knife forums, you will get plenty of good advice for that situation. What he was apparently supposed to do is to say that he is going fishing after school, and suddenly he's legal. Cuz apparently hunting and fishing are two legitimate reasons for carrying a >4" knife in OH. What he did was to admit he carries that around all the time.... because he is training to be a firefighter, and it's for cutting seatbelts. Apparently, the possibility of needing to cut a seatbelt is NOT a sufficient justification for carrying a >4" knife in OH - even if you are in firefighter training.

Yeah, I see the irony. I agree the law is dumb. But - and sorry for the kid, here - if stupid laws are ever going to change, authorities shouldn't be allowed to make on-the-spot judgment calls and exceptions based on limited and mostly superficial information (and innate prejudices). "Ok, in this case a 5" knife is fine. But in this case, it's not." That would be the worst case, and in many states that's pretty much where things are right now.

hso
March 14, 2014, 07:31 AM
The school made the decision after someone pointed to the guys Youtube videos reviewing games and airsoft and gear and providing self defense advice. That made them nervous.

The other fact to consider in the school/LE reaction is that he didn't cooperate and even denied them permission to search and requested an attorney and they took his keys and searched his vehicle against his wishes. Pushback isn't appreciated by some authorities and their reactions can be other than dispassionate.

ugaarguy
March 14, 2014, 04:28 PM
All I am saying is that I wouldn't press for an EXCEPTION to the law for this one person, just because he wants to be a firefighter or w/e. If he broke the law, and if the evidence was obtained legally, then it's the law that's messed up. Not the application of said law.
Actually, we aren't asking for an exception for just this one person. We're pointing out that these laws are beyond messed up. We're saying that the laws shouldn't be written such that a kid like this has his life permanently ruined over something as trivial as a pocket knife. Further, if a law is unjust then the executive branch has a duty not to enforce it, and the judicial branch has a duty not to uphold it. We're saying that the prosecutor should back off because the law is unjust.

RetiredUSNChief
March 14, 2014, 06:12 PM
Ah...but prosecuting a law that is unjust, when it's a certain conviction, is simply another feather in the professional hat of the prosecutor.'

For professional and political bean counters, this is what matters. A track record of refusing to prosecute certian laws simply does not carry the same weight as having a whole stack of prosecutions won weighed against a very tiny stack of prosecutions lost.

JShirley
March 14, 2014, 06:37 PM
Gloob, you clearly did not read the story carefully.

A high school senior in Ohio is facing felony charges after officials at the technical school he was attending for firefighter training ..."If I am convicted of a felony...I won't even be able to be a janitor. I'm 18 years old, and this is going to ruin my entire life."

On Dec. 12, 2013, administrators at A-Tech approached Wiser after someone allegedly tipped them off about videos Wiser had uploaded to YouTube.

The YouTube account in question appears to include reviews of video games and merchandise, demonstrations on home defense tactics and an interview with a local police officer.



JMR, I know of at least three cases where teachers attacked students, so "I'm sure it's really the kid's fault" doesn't ring true at all, to me. I also know of numerous cases of police/prosecutorial over-reactions, to include felony charges, such as a nephew of mine being charged with manslaughter when someone left a party at his place, passed out in the woods, and died of exposure.

hartcreek
March 15, 2014, 01:28 AM
There is so much that is not stated...The kid is certified as an Emergency Vehicle Operator in such a position alone he is probably required to carry certain items by law. In this area we have volunteer fire department people that are still in high school and they are required to have their gear in their vehicle so they can respond.

GLOOB
March 15, 2014, 03:03 PM
Re: Jshirley
In one of those articles the boy states he has been training to be a firefighter since he was 14.

Fwiw I was once a certified EMT. Nowhere was there ever a mention of a knife. The only thing I was encouraged to purchase and carry in my vehicle was a barrier mask and latex gloves. At that particular point in my life I rarely carried a pocket knife, but I occasionally carried a folding knife. Under 4" per local law.

hso
March 15, 2014, 09:11 PM
I rarely carried a pocket knife, but I occasionally carried a folding knife.

Gloob,

A "pocket knife" is a "folding knife" since a fixed blade can't be a pocket knife.

I ran around with a bunch of Rural Metro HS guys and they all carried a folding knife for cutting clothing and seat belts. It wasn't a big deal then and it shouldn't be a big deal now.

GLOOB
March 16, 2014, 04:52 AM
I could have been clearer. What I meant was, "I rarely carried a pocketknife, but on the occasions I did carry a pocketknife, it was in compliance with the law."

I agree it's no big deal for someone to carry a legal knife. I also happen to think it's no big deal to carry a pocketable knife that is bigger than 4", nor to have one in your car. I happen to have a 20" knife in my truck, at this very moment, but I have that right by virtue of where I reside. Some jurisdictions don't agree.

I don't know what the charges are, here, but that doesn't seem to stop everyone else from jumping to conclusions. There might be a reason other students were not charged, criminally, but he is. Like, maybe he was breaking a law which the other students did not.

hso
March 16, 2014, 06:12 AM
Blade length laws are uniformly misdemeanors except in rare situations. Blade shape/mechanism laws can be either misdemeanors or felonies depending upon the state/local law.

Here are the links to the applicable state laws where this incident has occurred.

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.11
http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.20
http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.122

There does not appear to be any blade length restrictions. Since the knife was in the vehicle and the vehicle wasn't occupied at the time it was searched the carry rules shouldn't apply. All making this even more puzzling unless a local ordinance had a blade length restriction (but since the knife was in the vehicle it would be difficult to apply the carry laws where blade length restrictions always apply). The only application of the law that might fit easily is the prohibition on possession of "switchblade knife, springblade knife, gravity knife", otherwise they appear to be applying the definition of a "deadly weapon" along with 2934.122.E (1) and unless that knife was "designed or specially adapted for use as a weapon, or possessed, carried, or used as a weapon." they've pushed the charges too far.

nifty1940
March 16, 2014, 07:37 AM
I agree entirely with this comment. As an Aussie, i am concerned my country is heading down the same path. Our firearm laws are stringent, and now many victims are wounded and murdered with edged weapons. Now the powers to be ARE seriously talking of BANNING knives - even kitchen ones! We have the same idiotic, off-the-planet knee-jerkists here, and they're getting worse.

ChaoSS
March 16, 2014, 11:06 AM
...otherwise they appear to be applying the definition of a "deadly weapon" along with 2934.122.E (1) and unless that knife was "designed or specially adapted for use as a weapon, or possessed, carried, or used as a weapon." they've pushed the charges too far.I think that this is the case. I wonder if, in any of his videos, he ever, at any point, mentioned the ability to use a knife in self defense. That would be used as proof that he intended it as a weapon.



Personally I think that these sorts of laws are terribly vague. Proving intent can be impossible, but then, we all know that convincing a jury can sometimes be all too easy. Under the letter of the law, a specifically designed target rifle should be perfectly legal on school grounds, yet I have no doubt that at least most of the prosecutors would be happy to charge someone for having on in their car on school grounds.


I agree entirely with this comment. As an Aussie, i am concerned my country is heading down the same path. Our firearm laws are stringent, and now many victims are wounded and murdered with edged weapons. Now the powers to be ARE seriously talking of BANNING knives - even kitchen ones! We have the same idiotic, off-the-planet knee-jerkists here, and they're getting worse.Sounds a lot like England. Not long ago I was hearing serious discussion about banning (don't know if it went through or not, but it's probably only a matter of time) long pointy kitchen knives. Something about how you could make do with a long kitchen knife that wasn't pointy, and a short kitchen knife that was, for the times you needed a point on a kitchen knife.

Probably won't be too long before you have to be a license food preparer to own any kitchen knives, after all, you can just buy food presliced....

Radagast
March 16, 2014, 11:36 PM
Nifty1940:
http://www.australianbladeforums.com/vb4/ is a good reference if you like sharp pointy things. It's not always doom and gloom, in 2005 I had a part in stopping a ban on pump action and lever action rifles. We (SSAA, IPSC & others) stopped in cold the night before it was to be announced at the police ministers conference.

hso
March 17, 2014, 09:28 AM
Gents,

Let's at least stay focused on the knife issue and leave the gun control topics, except how they directly relate to this thread, for the General or Activism forums.

Radagast
March 17, 2014, 10:30 AM
Agreed, and I apologize for going off topic.

Sol
March 17, 2014, 01:40 PM
I don't forsee any 4th amendment cases with this one.

I had a student policy handbook in high school of which you were given two copies of: one to keep, one to turn in signed by the student and their respective guardian(s).

It's been a long time but the book explicitly stated, not verbatim: if it's on public school GROUNDS (which I imagine encompasses ALL school property including parking lots) faculty has the reserves right to search it. If his car was parked in their lot, I don't see too much legal recourse in the 4A department.

hso
March 17, 2014, 10:28 PM
Unless he expressly denied them permission and requested an attorney before the search.

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