SBR or Sig Brace


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Hyrulejedi86
March 13, 2014, 04:10 PM
OK guys, I have an octane 9 that I'm going to be picking up soon and had wanted to originally do an SBR. I recently discovered the Sig brace and can't decide if I should keep it simple and just buy that when I build my pistol or SBR it. I know you can't have a foregrip with a pistol and the Sig brace wouldn't be as easily moved back and forth but there is no waiting, tax stamp, restrictions on travel or gov knowledge of my possession of it. Plus with the pistol tube and brace it's almost $200 right there, about the same as the stamp.

So what are your thoughts on the matter? There is a chance I would be getting a 10.5" 233 upper down the road add I'd like to get the SWR Specwar.

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EdLaver
March 13, 2014, 05:02 PM
Honestly I'd do the SIG brace with a KAK buffer tube. The SB15 fits like a glove nice and tight on this buffer tube and it gives you just enough LOP to shoot comfortably and be compact. If anything, try the brace while you wait on your SBR paperwork. It'll make the wait a lots less grueling.

Arizona_Mike
March 13, 2014, 05:36 PM
For vert forgrip just make sure OAL >26". Whle it is crystal clear that removable muzzle devices don't count toward barrel length, the ATF contradicts themselves when it comes to whether they count to OAL (I have an old thread on the contradictions).. To be safe, don't count it. You are dealing with folks who possess the power to call tomato a vegitable rhubarb a fruit, thighs genitals, and dinosaur bones Native American artifacts . . . and get away with it. It is best to try to do what suck people want/expect.

Mike

Hyrulejedi86
March 13, 2014, 05:40 PM
The thing with the brace is it doesn't say where on the tube it had to be placed. So, I could put it on and leave a comfortable distance between the lower and the brace and still be fine.

strambo
March 13, 2014, 06:51 PM
For the cost of the brace, I'd just be patient and SBR the lower, then you can do what you want with other short uppers down the road. Want to take it out of state? Either submit the form or just slap a 16" upper back on for the trip.

Hyrulejedi86
March 13, 2014, 08:08 PM
Can you take an SBR'd lower with a non-SBR configuration across state lines temporarily without notifying the ATF?

Ruezim
March 13, 2014, 08:29 PM
The thing with the brace is it doesn't say where on the tube it had to be placed. So, I could put it on and leave a comfortable distance between the lower and the brace and still be fine.
KAK makes a pistol buffer for use with the sig arm brace it is slightly smaller diameter then a normal pistol buffer and I think it is about 1.5" longer. It will put the brace at about the midpoint on a collapsible stock. I talked to them last week about it the diameter that they made the new tubes to hold the sig arm brace snugly but not stretch out the sig arm brace.

The two versions are the super sig (with a castle nut) and sig (without the castle nut).

My buddy just completed his pistol with the sig tube. I like the look better but not sure of it without a castle nut.

Hyrulejedi86
March 13, 2014, 09:16 PM
I'll have to look into that for sure, sounds promising.

Sam1911
March 13, 2014, 09:52 PM
For the cost of the brace, I'd just be patient and SBR the lower, then you can do what you want with other short uppers down the road. Want to take it out of state? Either submit the form or just slap a 16" upper back on for the trip.With the NFA wait time at something like 15 months right now? Not sure I'd be that patient.

And, with the SIG "brace" you can do whatever you want with uppers at any point.

Sam1911
March 13, 2014, 09:53 PM
Can you take an SBR'd lower with a non-SBR configuration across state lines temporarily without notifying the ATF?
Yes. So long as you don't take your short upper(s) with you when you go. (Actually says "retain control of them.")

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-short-barreled-rifles-shotguns.html

Hyrulejedi86
March 13, 2014, 09:56 PM
The wait isn't that bad, I did an eform for my suppressors Oct and they took 3.5 months. It's up to 4 now I hear. Either way, eforms are quicker but Sig brace is simpler.

Nickb45
March 13, 2014, 10:10 PM
Something else to think about is (in Washington, not sure how everywhere else is) you can have a loaded pistol in your vehicle, can't have a loaded rifle.

Strahley
March 14, 2014, 12:45 AM
I'm in the same boat, and I decided to just go ahead and SBR it. I'll eform it with my trust so it should only take 3-4 months to get the stamp back. SIG brace seems easier/quicker but a stock will be more useful (IMO at least)

Hyrulejedi86
March 14, 2014, 12:31 PM
I looked a little closer at the KAK tube and I like it. Seems to have a nice LOP and the added length makes it so your shoulder touches the brace and the tube for support.

Arizona_Mike
March 14, 2014, 06:19 PM
Can you take an SBR'd lower with a non-SBR configuration across state lines temporarily without notifying the ATF?
Yes you can.

Mike

Arizona_Mike
March 14, 2014, 06:21 PM
The wait isn't that bad, I did an eform for my suppressors Oct and they took 3.5 months. It's up to 4 now I hear. Either way, eforms are quicker but Sig brace is simpler.
E-forms are still running about 95 days last I checked.

Mike

Engineer
March 15, 2014, 11:34 AM
I have both SBRs and an SB15 brace. The issue for me isn't about doing the paperwork for an SBR but how long a 5320.20 takes to be processed and returned. I wish they had made 5320.20 an eForm for faster processing but if wishes were horses...

Also, don't forget the cost of engraving a Form 1 SBR ... that's another ~$50.

Hyrulejedi86
March 15, 2014, 12:00 PM
Do you like your brace?

Engineer
March 15, 2014, 12:26 PM
For what it does, yes. Obviously an SBR is more versatile. The brace can rotate on the my KAK Super Sig tube - especially if it gets hit on the bottom where there's more leverage. Haven't decided if I'm going to hairspray it in place yet (as with bike grips).

Wisco
March 17, 2014, 03:06 PM
E-forms are still running about 95 days last I checked.

Mike

That's what I'm hoping for.

Why aren't more people using a trust and e-filing while it's still an option?

The cost of a trust is small price to pay to not wait 10-15 months.

Hyrulejedi86
March 17, 2014, 03:53 PM
I agree there, but some really want an actual stamp. I'm really glad I did because my two cans came back in 3.5 months instead of 10.

Charger442
March 17, 2014, 04:32 PM
SBR.

I wouldnt invest in, or wait around to see when or if the ATF decides that the Sig brace isnt legal anymore. If they do declare it illegal to be on a pistol, its going to be pretty much worthless.

The recent hoopla about Ares Armor and EP on the 80% poly lowers comes to mind. It doesnt have to make sense, but in this day and age where the ATF gets a wild hair to start cracking heads, the Sig Brace would be the easiest of targets.

Hyrulejedi86
March 17, 2014, 05:41 PM
You make a great point, but I would have thought the slidefire stock would have been in the same boat by now and it hasn't had any issues. At least with the brace they don't know who has them but with the SBR they know where to find you.

Sam1911
March 17, 2014, 05:55 PM
Eeeeh. Like with the ARES issue going on right now, if they really want to know, they'll just subpoena the receipts and records. Yes, that's not as easy as just looking in a registry, but you aren't in any way anonymous.

(Ok...so you bought at a gun show, in cash... most don't.)

Charger442
March 17, 2014, 05:56 PM
You make a great point, but I would have thought the slidefire stock would have been in the same boat by now and it hasn't had any issues. At least with the brace they don't know who has them but with the SBR they know where to find you.
That same logic could be applied to other NFA laws.... why even get a Sig brace? why not just have an "extra" retractable stock laying around? I mean, ATF doesnt know who owns stock either, right?


The slidefire stock was allowed because it was a very cut and dry rule that they were basing it on, one of the rules ATF has been consistent on. A firearm is considered to be non-FA as long as one pull of the trigger meant one bullet fired. The slide fire stock just makes you pull the trigger in a bump-fire fashion.

The decision on the Sig brace is one that could go either way. If someone decides that people are actually using them to fire from the shoulder, and they want to call it a stock, then it will swing it to being illegal.


Just like what happened to Ares armor, if the ATF wants to know who bought a Sig brace, then they will seize all the customer information about who bought them and from which distributor.

Hyrulejedi86
March 17, 2014, 06:39 PM
Definitely, worth thinking about. Especially, with eforms still available. I guess I was also drawn to the fact that a pistol can cross state lines but the SBR can't without notification. I have family out of town in an SBR legal state that we visit. I may well be going SBR after thinking about it.

justice06rr
March 17, 2014, 09:32 PM
Its really a toss-up, but the safer way to go is legally SBR it so you'll have your end covered.

I'm doing a Pistol AR with the SigBrace myself, but down the road will SBR a dedicated lower. Plus you get the comfort and adjustability of using any stock you wish with a SBR--with the Brace you are stuck with that.

Blade First
March 17, 2014, 11:18 PM
I don't get your reasoning. If the BATFE decides to contradict its own letter of approval, and by implication threatens your possession of the brace, simply remove the offending appendage and throw it in the trash.

You own a legal pistol, don't you?!

wally
March 18, 2014, 01:49 PM
My answer is to get the SB-15 so you can use it during the long wait for the SBR stamp.

You can always sell the SB15 and pistol buffer tube afterwards.

W.E.G.
March 18, 2014, 02:09 PM
OP posted: So what are your thoughts on the matter?

Every time I see one of these gee-whiz sorts of things, I ask myself: What would I (or anybody I know) actually use it for?

I respect your right to have the weirdest gun in the woods if it works for you.

For me, I can't begin to think why I would choose a weapon so-configured.

Thus far, from the various posts I've read, the ONLY reason why anybody is excited about this thing is because it seems to "get around" the silly SBR rules. If it weren't for the beat-the-rules element, nobody would be buying these things.

Police and military could use this sort of thing without concern for "the rules."
Do you see any of them using this?

Sam1911
March 18, 2014, 02:15 PM
Thus far, from the various posts I've read, the ONLY reason why anybody is excited about this thing is because it seems to "get around" the silly SBR rules. If it weren't for the beat-the-rules element, nobody would be buying these things.Precisely. That's not hard to understand. Maybe a few hundred people might actually buy one to help deal with a missing support hand/arm, but the rest of the thousands of buyers are getting them to use as a pseudo-SBR.

Police and military could use this sort of thing without concern for "the rules."
Do you see any of them using this?Of course not. I see LOTS of them using SBRs, but that's because doing so is relatively easy for them, with their issued gear not having to meet the NFA rules.

This is a workaround so that Joe Citizen can have a functional compact rifle/PDW without the wait and paperwork.

What's not clear about that?

W.E.G.
March 18, 2014, 02:25 PM
Yes, but show me anybody who has shot much SBR who really thinks a pistol-barreled AR-15 is the ideal weapon.

The cops and military are using rifles that have barrels that are a whole 1.3" shorter than what is legal for Joe Blow.

Somewhere, the military decided that 14.7" inches was the magic number for foot soldier. I won't even begin to get into how they came up with that number.

I had 10.5" .223 carbine. I was not impressed with it.

I'm sure I would be even less impressed with an even shorter barrel on a "rifle."

I've had this conversation before. It always evolves from size of the gun, then to the caliber of the gun, and then to what type of target will be engaged, and then to whether it will be fired full-auto, and then what type of ammo, and then what type of personnel support, and then blah, blah, blah...

If the stumpy-barrel rifle caliber gun is ideal to your needs, more power to you.
I've fired a whole lot of types of guns.
Without fail, the weird ones go the way of the weird soon after the novelty wears off.

Hyrulejedi86
March 18, 2014, 02:28 PM
True for rifle caliber but in my case I have a 9mm AR that a short length barrel will keep my handloads subsonic.

W.E.G.
March 18, 2014, 02:32 PM
but in my case I have a 9mm AR

Just like I said.

Then the debate turns to the caliber.

Then it turns to the effectiveness of the caliber for the intended purpose.

If it works for you, I'm glad for you.

A 9mm rifle Stoner-type rifle does not interest me.
Neither is it a first choice for most 9mm shooters, or most rifle shooters.

Sam1911
March 18, 2014, 02:57 PM
If the stumpy-barrel rifle caliber gun is ideal to your needs, more power to you.Well, ok, then, that seems to be the take-home message.

Conveniently, the SIG brace setup appears to be a relatively inexpensive way for folks to determine if a "stumpy-barrel" rifle is ideal for their needs.

Sounds like a win to me!

waterhouse
March 21, 2014, 02:29 PM
Yes, but show me anybody who has shot much SBR who really thinks a pistol-barreled AR-15 is the ideal weapon.

Most of the entry team guys I know use them (most use 10.5) Given a choice, my 12.5" gun would be my primary AR. I would guess that 98% of my AR shooting is inside of 100 yards. I don't find the 12.5" to be much louder than a 16" gun, it is more compact, and the velocity loss doesn't matter at the distance I use it at.

wally
March 21, 2014, 05:28 PM
Yes, but show me anybody who has shot much SBR who really thinks a pistol-barreled AR-15 is the ideal weapon.

Of course its not ideal, but if you live in a state than doesn't allow SBR or don't want the NFA hassles, or want something to use while waiting for your SBR stamp, an AR pistol with the SB-15 is as they say "close enough for government work".

Actually its close enough that its probably worth trying one before deciding if its worth the hassle of an NFA SBR or not.

I rarely shoot much past 100 yards and I've really come to prefer shooting my SBRs over the carbines, ended up liking them much more than I expected to. YMMV.

yamahawarrior89
March 21, 2014, 07:57 PM
Some states don't allow sbr's or loaded rifles in your vehicle

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