Found these 2 firearms in a house - no kidding need help identifying


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anothernewb
March 23, 2014, 01:00 PM
For real, I'm doing a remodel project on a 1952 house. knocking out a few walls for an "open room" concept. Anyway, I'm working on the upper story where some work's been done before. I knock out a wall that's a blind section from the old knee wall. In it I find these:

Looks like a luger, I wonder if it's authentic and from what age?

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee207/chase-aise/found/IMG_8493_zps7a0679ef.jpg

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee207/chase-aise/found/IMG_8494_zps40f1c09b.jpg

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee207/chase-aise/found/IMG_8495_zps5229ec93.jpg

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee207/chase-aise/found/IMG_8496_zpsd5f32c11.jpg

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee207/chase-aise/found/IMG_8499_zps13965246.jpg

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee207/chase-aise/found/IMG_8500_zps1283b9a0.jpg

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee207/chase-aise/found/IMG_8501_zps3ad62957.jpg

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee207/chase-aise/found/IMG_8503_zps72fa0251.jpg


It's pretty rough. but considering where it's been stuck for god knows how long. I guess i'd consider it pristine. The trigger is pretty rusty, too.

How much can I clean this thing before I start destroying it's value. for that matter - how the heck do I even value it????



I also find this savage. I know nothing about this at all.

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee207/chase-aise/found/IMG_8492_zpsf9a36193.jpg

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee207/chase-aise/found/IMG_8488_zps111ac3ca.jpg

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee207/chase-aise/found/IMG_8490_zpsb86de95d.jpg

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee207/chase-aise/found/IMG_8489_zpsb1cc271a.jpg

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jerkface11
March 23, 2014, 01:14 PM
http://www.lugerforum.com/lugermarkings/proof-2.html

Don't clean that luger.

Al Thompson
March 23, 2014, 01:19 PM
Ditto, maybe wipe with an oily cloth, but don't do anything else.

anothernewb
March 23, 2014, 01:26 PM
thanks for the link. the proof marks show it as 1914-1918, so it fits the 1916 date stamp on the top.

This is kinda cool. does this mean it's an authentic German unit and not a replica? Like all lugers, I wonder if this may have been war used...

I wonder what the large scrollwork on the rear of the receiver is

jerkface11
March 23, 2014, 01:31 PM
I think that's the DWM mark.

Aaron Baker
March 23, 2014, 01:36 PM
I should preface this post by saying that I have no particular expertise, and that you should definitely value any other person's expert opinion over mine.

I know nothing about the Luger at all.

I also don't know anything specific about the Savage, but had some questions. Can you determine a caliber? Does it have any caliber markings, or can you examine the chamber by eyeball?

It reminds me of a much fancier version of an old Western Field single-shot .22 bolt action rifle that I have. From doing my research on the Western Field (which was a store-branded Mossberg), I figured out that mine was a 1930s manufacture, and that there was no federal law requiring serial numbers at that time. I don't see a serial number on that Savage either. Serial numbers weren't required until the Gun Control Act of 1968, but were fairly common on more expensive rifles well before that. Lots of single shot .22s didn't have them, though. It appears to be the same sort of simple mechanism of the single shot .22 that I have.

That would lead me to believe that unless that particular model of Savage has a lot of collector's value based on its rarity or name cachet, that it probably isn't particularly valuable. However, it's very cool. They made a lot of those single-shot boys rifles in .22, and they're still neat to use for something like squirrel hunting even today.

Aaron

jerkface11
March 23, 2014, 01:39 PM
They made a lot of those single-shot boys rifles in .22, and they're still neat to use for something like squirrel hunting even today.

If that gun was mine and still had a good bore that would be a go to squirrel rifle.

anothernewb
March 23, 2014, 01:39 PM
Savage is a 22lr found this as well:

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee207/chase-aise/found/IMG_8504_zps2d135b1c.jpg

Dmath
March 23, 2014, 02:32 PM
Conceivably the Luger is a fake, but considering where you found it, and guessing that it was stashed in there (by some misguided soul) many decades ago, you'd have to believe that no fakery was ever intended.
I love Lugers, but I am no expert. That's almost certainly a DWM (Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken) of the WW1 era, as the 1916 suggests. Track down some Luger lovers -- knowledgeable ones, unlike me -- and see what they say. Even with that tad of rust, my guess is it's worth a lot more than $1,000, maybe twice that. Don't do anything to either the gun or the grips. Do look down the bore and see if it's pitted. If not, that adds to the value.

rcmodel
March 23, 2014, 03:11 PM
No, it is not a fake.
No possibility of it in fact.

The gun is probably worth somewhere in the $1,200 - $1,500 range.

I will go against the grain and advise you to clean it.
You have to get the rust stopped to prevent further damage.

Use bore solvent, and cotton patches to rub off all the rust you can get off.
Do Not use anything abrasive such as sandpaper or something! :what:

You can use 0000 Extra-Fine Steel wool and oil to get the rust.
Just don't rub long & hard in one place.

Clean the grips with lemon oil furniture polish and an oil toothbrush to get the mold stopped.

Rc

Jim K
March 23, 2014, 03:16 PM
The Luger is authentic and appears not only correct, but with matching numbers. It is in quite decent shape and everything is consistent with the 1916 date. I would field strip, clean and oil it to preserve it. It might bring as much as $1500 or more retail. If you don't know how to clean that gun, find someone who knows how so it isn't damaged.

Note that by "clean", I mean patches and a cloth with gun cleaner, NOT a steel brush or sandpaper!!

Jim

Carl N. Brown
March 23, 2014, 03:27 PM
Do clean and oil. Do not use abrasives.

What will kill collector value is to try to re-blue the metal or refinish the grips. That would take it from the category of collector's item to just another old gun (an old Luger to be sure, but will whack collectors value badly).

jerkface11
March 23, 2014, 03:28 PM
The Luger would put me in a dilemma. Sell it and have an easy $1000 or keep it and have a Luger.

Deltaboy
March 23, 2014, 03:48 PM
Great finds I love finding things in houses while remodeling.

rockhopper46038
March 23, 2014, 03:58 PM
I don't have any expertise to add to the above on how to properly restore those weapons, but it wasn't 100% clear to me from your OP whether you are remodeling your own house or someone else's. In case it is the latter I would ask the home's owner about them before doing anything.

dbmjr1
March 23, 2014, 04:13 PM
Who's house did you find them in? Did they know that the firearms were there? Do they have any clues to the ownership?

If they are yours, . . .

I would carefully disassemble them, and give them a good cleaning, as you would any other firearm. I would use no abrasives at all. Not even to get a bit of rust off. Wipe them down with mineral spirits to remove any oil or wax from the surfaces.

As for the wood I would wash it with warm water and dish detergent. Carefully dry it immediately. Wait a day and do it again. After another day, wipe with mineral spirits and dry. Let sit another day.

Then I would use Renaissance Wax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance_Wax) on both the metal parts and the wood. I would not use any oil on the metal parts, as it's really not that good at stopping rust. The wax is what museums use to protect their firearms. Since the wax can be wiped off with a bit of mineral spirits, it will do nothing to harm the value. Do not use automotive wax, or any wax that contains silicon on the wood. It will harm the value. I strongly suggest that you only use Renaissance Wax and nothing else.

Edit: Washing the wood with warm water and dish washing detergent won't do any harm. Wiping the wood with mineral spirits won't harm any type of finish. If the grips are darkened excessively by oils, you can use a poultice to draw out the oils.

Doc7
March 23, 2014, 04:59 PM
Please check to make sure they aren't loaded before doing anything else!

Jim Watson
March 23, 2014, 04:59 PM
As said, the Luger is a real deal Imperial P08 from WWI.
Looking at Simpson's, it would be $1500-$1800 RETAIL. Less for an individual sale, but surely over $1000. Do not let an unscrupulous dealer tell you different. NOT a Pawn Stars item.

The little Savage is not so valuable in its well worn condition, I found one in similar condition that sold for $128.
But this one has the "perch belly" stock and Scheutzen buttplate and is just as cute as a button. I would be sorely tempted to have it refurbished. There is a poster on this board who occasionally shows inexpensive guns he has brought back to nice appearance and function without the expense of a true restoration or the buffed and varnished gleam of a common refinish.

natman
March 23, 2014, 09:31 PM
The Luger is a DWM and as far as I can tell it's all matching numbers (59). It's worth 4 figures easily. Some gentle rubbing with 0000 (4 zero) steel wool and LOTS of oil will remove the rust without damaging anything. Keep it well oiled thereafter.

The Savage isn't worth as much, but it's worth cleaning up and it certainly is appealing.

Steel Horse Rider
March 23, 2014, 11:21 PM
The stock on the Savage can be repaired using Accraglas and if done correctly, will not devalue the rifle and make it safe and fun to shoot. Cracks in rifle stocks used to bother me until I repaired a few with Accraglas, but now I look for them as an open crack lowers the value but a properly repaired crack is very hard to find.

SDC
March 24, 2014, 12:41 PM
You don't want to touch that Luger with anything harder than a cotton rag; if you're planning on selling it, let the goomba who BUYS it buff it up on a wire wheel (after he pays you for it), but anything that changes the original colour, finish, or sheen is just subtracting value.

zoom6zoom
March 24, 2014, 02:07 PM
0000 (4 zero) steel wool
I'm one of those who believe that steel wool shouldn't even be in the same room with firearms. If you must go this route, please use bronze wool. It's softer than the steel, won't remove blueing, and won't leave behind particles that can rust.

Jim K
March 24, 2014, 04:21 PM
IMHO, steel wool is best kept for the old cook pot. Rust on guns can be addressed better with bronze (brass or copper will do) wool and oil.

From what I can tell, that Luger appears to have close to 100 percent original finish, with only small flecks of rust. It is best treated with a good gun oil and a cloth, not with abrasives of any kind. (It is a good idea to first remove the grips and oil underneat; wood traps moisture and many guns rust under the grips when they do not rust elsewhere.

Jim

anothernewb
March 24, 2014, 05:04 PM
To answer the most obvious question. I am remodeling it for someone else. Its an estate sale property. The owner passed away, and the kids want the house gone. None are local, and none wasn't the headache of absentee landlord. They contracted me to get it in shape for selling. It's in kinda poor shape. Badly maintained for nearly a decade. Part of the contract was I get possession of the tools and misc left in the house. And I have it in writing. The parent that lived there had several tools I was after. This was a bonus.

I plan to keep both. The savage is damaged internally I believe, the trigger and bolt are non operative. The luger has a good bore. It's coated in goo. Looks like old axle grease. It's like stale jelly. But it appears to fully function.

Thanks for the replies!

Tinpig
March 24, 2014, 06:06 PM
Nice find.
I've been remodeling old houses for 45 years and have found a lot of interesting things, but still no guns, gold coins, or bearer bonds in the crawl spaces.
I know they're there!
:)

Tinpig

natman
March 24, 2014, 09:41 PM
I'm one of those who believe that steel wool shouldn't even be in the same room with firearms. If you must go this route, please use bronze wool. It's softer than the steel, won't remove blueing, and won't leave behind particles that can rust.

I don't doubt that bronze wool works wonderfully. But steel wool is easily available at any hardware store and in thirty years of using it to remove rust on hundreds of guns I have never experienced any of the problems listed when removing surface rust in the manner I described. I'm not going to switch to bronze wool to solve problems that exist more in theory than actual practice.

rcmodel
March 24, 2014, 10:06 PM
Me neither.
And I've been using it for 40+ years.

In fact, professional firearms refinishers and manufactures use it to card off bluing salts residue on new high polish bluing fresh out of the bluing tank.

Bronze wool leaves brass rub-off that is harder to get off without finish damage then the rust was.
And it takes more harder rubbing to remove rust in the first place.

I have to really wonder how many folks who are saying 0000 Super-Fine steel Wool & oil will harm a blued finish have any Actual Experience doing it?
Or have ever even tried it??

Not too many I suspect.

As for leaving steel wool particles that will rust?
Not Even A Chance of that!

You are using it to remove the rust, not put it on it!
You wipe & clean & oil the metal after you use the steel wool.
So there are NO particles remaining to rust.

Here is what 0000 steel wool & oil actually can do & does do.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7826470&postcount=1


Rc

Jim K
March 25, 2014, 09:59 PM
In spite of what I said earlier, I have used steel wool, but very carefully and in limited circumstances. I cringe when I read advice to just use steel wool and scrub the hell out of a gun. Folks won't believe it but steel wool (even 0000) will scratch a finish and the scratches can be seen under magnification. And it will remove bluing as well as scratching nickel. Those pictures show a lot of nice original bluing on that Luger, and I don't think scrubbing it with steel wool is going to do it any good.

Jim

anothernewb
March 25, 2014, 11:13 PM
Well, I got to work on cleaning it a bit tonight.

I got to thinking how best to get at the spots. So I dug up some naval jelly, wiped the surface down liberally with it. then set it aside to work for a bit. I had some little steel and brass brushes for my dremel and went to work on it.




























Now - for anyone not having a heart attack, and those who are still holding their drinks or who are not cursing me to the lowest level of hell---

I did no such thing. I removed the grips and worked them with a toothbrush and some antique furniture cleaner that's supposed to be save for all finishes. Not much really came off them, but they appear to still have some lacquer on them so I left them largely untouched. I went to work on the steel with a nylon brush an old sock, and liberal quantities of gun oil.

40+ years (best as I can figure from the jacketing material of the wiring in the area I found them walled up in) in a Minnesota house have not been very kind to these things.

What I thought was jelly like goo, was actually lint/dust that had collected inside the bore. There may have been oil in there at one time - but not really any more. The bore has some pitting. slight, but enough to notice with a bore lite, but the rifling is still very clearly defined and the pits are probably small enough to be polished out with time. However, I simply scrubbed them up with a bore brush, + solvent, then ran a bunch of oil and patches through it and left it be. The majority of the rusty spots cleaned up well, but they're there to stay. and I'm not going to scrub any further for fear of messing things up.

The action works freely, and most of the moving parts seem unaffected by pitting or rust. I'm actually amazed at how smooth it it, and how tight the tolerances are. for 1916 machining. wow. just wow. maybe .001 or .002 clearance, but smooth as butter. I can't feel any drag or rough spots.

The inside of the magwell is pretty bad. the first couple passes with a rag were orange. ick..the pitting there is well... pitting.

Ill post a pic or two, but the gun remains largely like it looks in the original photos. The spots are a little smaller and darker now. It's wrapped in some of that dark brown oil/wax anit-rust paper until I find a better place to store it.

rcmodel
March 25, 2014, 11:37 PM
So I dug up some naval jelly, OMG!!!

You sure got me!
I had to go take a heart pill right after I read the first line! :cuss:

Dang Nabbit!

rc

natman
March 26, 2014, 10:06 AM
In spite of what I said earlier, I have used steel wool, but very carefully and in limited circumstances. I cringe when I read advice to just use steel wool and scrub the hell out of a gun.

You certainly didn't read that here. What was actually written:

Some gentle rubbing with 0000 (4 zero) steel wool and LOTS of oil will remove the rust without damaging anything.

Sparks1954
March 26, 2014, 11:36 AM
http://www.big45metalcleaner.com/

This stuff will not work on cold bluing but works fantastic on traditional bluing

Kp321
March 26, 2014, 01:51 PM
Another question on the Luger. Does the magazine have any numbers on it? If it is numbered to the pistol, the value goes up. It looks to be a correct WWI magazine so the pistol could have been in the US since then. WWI Lugers were re-issued during WWII but many of them are found with WWII aluminum bottom magazines rather than the early wood bottom ones.

anothernewb
March 26, 2014, 02:39 PM
Where would I find the magazine number?
The pads where you place your fingers are wood.

rcmodel
March 26, 2014, 02:44 PM
The number was stamped on the bottom of the wood or aluminum base plate.

See bottom of this page for an example.
http://www.lugerforum.com/owner_gallery/owner1g.html

rc

jimmyraythomason
March 26, 2014, 03:09 PM
I'm one of those who believe that steel wool shouldn't even be in the same room with firearms. I can't understand why people are so afraid of 0000 steel wool. I have used it on everything from old L.C.Smith doubles to new bluing straight out of the bluing tanks(still do). It does absolutely no harm to the bluing. As far a residue particles.. just blow off with compressed air or oil in an aerosol can. I have no quarrel with bronze wool but there is no particular need to use it.

gunman.357
March 26, 2014, 03:23 PM
Awesome find... everything looks authentic to me. As for cleaning it I would make that decision only if I were gonna keep it and even then it would be limited to what I did too it. But if your gonna sell it let the buyer do that at his discretion.

hso
March 27, 2014, 09:23 PM
Kroil and brass wool is gentler than using steel wool. Remove all wood carefully that you might contact. Remember that damaged screws reduce the value.

I'd apply Kroil and wipe off with cotton swabs after a couple of hours. Repeat until the rust stops coming off and then decide if brass wool might be needed.

Remember that an careless attempt at "restoration" will reduce the value more than just oiling and then selling.

Skinny 1950
March 31, 2014, 10:13 PM
As a point of reference I just paid $1650.00 for this Luger dated 1917, it has the same markings as the pictures in this thread but oddly the serial number is lower.
This gun would be worth a lot more if it had not been professionally "restored" but I imagine it was badly pitted on the exterior and probably looked like a relic.
This is the Artillery Luger with a 7 inch barrel and long range sights.
Lugers with a 4 inch barrel are "prohibited" here in Canada which means that I can't have one, if you add 1/4 inch to the barrel it is "restricted" but it is re-barreled.
To have a Luger with an original barrel I got this Artillery variant which is "restricted".

http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af11/Skinny1950/dc5a1e81-6696-4250-99c9-68ffd88185ab_zpscd5dfe4c.jpg (http://s989.photobucket.com/user/Skinny1950/media/dc5a1e81-6696-4250-99c9-68ffd88185ab_zpscd5dfe4c.jpg.html)
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af11/Skinny1950/2ffc38f1-792a-4f21-9b86-ed8f2805a82b_zpsfec3ee57.jpg (http://s989.photobucket.com/user/Skinny1950/media/2ffc38f1-792a-4f21-9b86-ed8f2805a82b_zpsfec3ee57.jpg.html)

leadcounsel
April 1, 2014, 01:31 AM
I have little to add about these particular guns. It's great that you have a contract that says you get to keep what you find.

On that note, if it hadn't occurred to you, I would poke, prod, and search the heck out of the rest of that house for every possible loose floor board, nook and cranny... maybe even take a metal detector to the walls and back yard!

I know an elderly couple that hides guns, money, coins, and other valuables in their walls, floors, ceilings, etc. Crazy, I know.

So, tear that darn house apart!

This thread reminds me of another a few years back of a guy that found a bunch of rifles in the house he had just purchased, and some similar threads:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=590680&highlight=found+attic
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=602048&highlight=found+attic
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=478897&highlight=found+attic
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=438633&highlight=found+attic
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=389447&highlight=found+attic

anothernewb
April 1, 2014, 10:03 AM
As a point of reference I just paid $1650.00 for this Luger dated 1917, it has the same markings as the pictures in this thread but oddly the serial number is lower.
This gun would be worth a lot more if it had not been professionally "restored" but I imagine it was badly pitted on the exterior and probably looked like a relic.
This is the Artillery Luger with a 7 inch barrel and long range sights.
Lugers with a 4 inch barrel are "prohibited" here in Canada which means that I can't have one, if you add 1/4 inch to the barrel it is "restricted" but it is re-barreled.
To have a Luger with an original barrel I got this Artillery variant which is "restricted".

http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af11/Skinny1950/dc5a1e81-6696-4250-99c9-68ffd88185ab_zpscd5dfe4c.jpg (http://s989.photobucket.com/user/Skinny1950/media/dc5a1e81-6696-4250-99c9-68ffd88185ab_zpscd5dfe4c.jpg.html)
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af11/Skinny1950/2ffc38f1-792a-4f21-9b86-ed8f2805a82b_zpsfec3ee57.jpg (http://s989.photobucket.com/user/Skinny1950/media/2ffc38f1-792a-4f21-9b86-ed8f2805a82b_zpsfec3ee57.jpg.html)
Wow, that thing looks amazing.

I wonder what it would cost to have mine restored, and how much it might depreciate it's current value

anothernewb
April 1, 2014, 10:08 AM
I have little to add about these particular guns. It's great that you have a contract that says you get to keep what you find.

On that note, if it hadn't occurred to you, I would poke, prod, and search the heck out of the rest of that house for every possible loose floor board, nook and cranny... maybe even take a metal detector to the walls and back yard!

I know an elderly couple that hides guns, money, coins, and other valuables in their walls, floors, ceilings, etc. Crazy, I know.

So, tear that darn house apart!

This thread reminds me of another a few years back of a guy that found a bunch of rifles in the house he had just purchased, and some similar threads:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=590680&highlight=found+attic
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=602048&highlight=found+attic
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=478897&highlight=found+attic
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=438633&highlight=found+attic
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=389447&highlight=found+attic
Yeah, I'd like to tear into the whole house. But I have a sell date to make and there's the other side of getting into it so deep I loose my butt on it. It's mostly a simple low impact flip. paint, patching, updating the kitchen and bath. some lights and yard cleanup. not too much major reconstruction. Only reason I opened up the wall I did was due to assess the level of water damage from the roof.

It's not my primary job, just side work I do to earn money - mostly to buy guns/ammo anyway lol. At this point I'm way ahead!

rcmodel
April 1, 2014, 12:19 PM
+1 on a metal detector.

Even just a cheap one to check the walls and other likely places.

You'd still be money ahead even if you don't find anything else.

Rc

anothernewb
April 1, 2014, 12:45 PM
only issue with a metal detector, the house is largely plaster, and has metal mesh reinforcing joints and corners.

Deltaboy
April 1, 2014, 10:26 PM
Over the years remodeling or demolition of houses ,I found knives, coins and such but no guns. Dad found a old 22 in a barn and some guy gave him 300 cash for it 2 weeks later.

Bbear
April 15, 2014, 10:13 AM
Was running a bush-hog around an old farmstead here in Texas back in the late 70's and found a Winchester 9422 that had been sawed off right behind the lever and right past the stock band. It was rusted shut and the bore was completely rusted closed. Called the sheriff's department and they said not to worry.
My BNL built houses in Colorado and found an old H&R nickel revolver in 32. It doesn't work but is a cool Xmas present he gave me.

mackg
May 25, 2014, 10:06 AM
Well, I got to work on cleaning it a bit tonight.

I got to thinking how best to get at the spots. So I dug up some naval jelly, wiped the surface down liberally with it. then set it aside to work for a bit. I had some little steel and brass brushes for my dremel and went to work on it.

:cuss: I didn't even get a chance to read the dremel part before I passed out...

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