Import ban on 7n6 5.45 x 39 ammo?


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JohnnyK
March 29, 2014, 02:17 PM
I've seen in a few places that there is allegedly an import "ban" on the corrosive 5.45 x 39 ammo in the spam cans... because they are "armor piercing" and somebody made a pistol that shoots this caliber. I've heard a recorded phone call on AK operators union 47-74 youtube page with the atf that said this is true... and Copes distributing says they can't get anymore... does anyone here have any additional info? I have multiple rifles that shoot this cartridge and I love the surplus prices for the spam cans... I would hate to lose this supply of cheap ammo.

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Midwest
March 29, 2014, 02:26 PM
I heard the same thing too, it may be true


http://www.pa2a.org/thread-rumour-5-45x39-7n6-steel-core-atf-ban-according-to-james-yeager


"cope's posted today that their shipment of 5.45 steel core 7n6 was held up. as much as i hate james yeager, he may have been right. if true, this isn't the end of 5.45x39, but do expect the price to go up. "

Edit: More Info

There is an ATF letter .

http://www.thebangswitch.com/import-ban-on-7n6-5-45x39/


"The rumor stems from an importer who had filed a Form 6 to bring in a shipment of 7N6 surplus ammo from Russia. The form approval went well past 2 weeks, which is the normal time frame for a Form 6 to be approved by the BATF. The importer emailed the BATF to find out what was going on with this particular import request and received this email response back."


https://d2444os31gbwts.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/atf_letter.jpg

.

dogtown tom
March 29, 2014, 05:16 PM
Someone ought to read the ATF regulation before issuing such a letter:

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=70394195a3edf623eba7ce77a1bddff1&node=27:3.0.1.2.3&rgn=div5#27:3.0.1.2.3.2

478.11 Meaning of terms.

Armor piercing ammunition. Projectiles or projectile cores which may be used in a handgun and which are constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or full jacketed projectiles larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile. The term does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, frangible projectiles designed for target shooting, projectiles which the Director finds are primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectiles or projectile cores which the Director finds are intended to be used for industrial purposes, including charges used in oil and gas well perforating devices.
5.45 is 0.21456692913409caliber........which is not "larger than .22 caliber" according to this calculator http://www.convertunits.com/from/mm/to/caliber

Sam Cade
March 29, 2014, 05:27 PM
Someone ought to read the ATF regulation before issuing such a letter:

Ok.



The operative part:


Armor piercing ammunition. Projectiles or projectile cores which may be used in a handgun and which are constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium;

So steel cored ammo is AP if it can be fired in a pistol.

The part that does not apply, note the OR. Not to be confused with AND.

OR full jacketed projectiles larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile. The term does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, frangible projectiles designed for target shooting, projectiles which the Director finds are primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectiles or projectile cores which the Director finds are intended to be used for industrial purposes, including charges used in oil and gas well perforating devices.

119er
March 29, 2014, 06:48 PM
Stick a fork in it..........

http://www.usacsales.com/index.php?route=information/news/news&news_id=14

JohnnyK
March 29, 2014, 07:11 PM
what a bunch of crap... a search of 5.45 handguns shows nothing... who is this big culprit?

119er
March 29, 2014, 08:19 PM
I see JBI Armory catching a lot of flak on facebook. How well deserved is it? I don't know. Check it out for yourselves, just reporting what I'm seeing.

On their actual website under services they advertise 5.45 AK pistols at the bottom right of the page. Not sure I can post a screen shot of it so I won't.

vamo
March 29, 2014, 08:32 PM
I see JBI Armory catching a lot of flak on facebook. How well deserved is it? I don't know. Check it out for yourselves, just reporting what I'm seeing.

On their actual website under services they advertise 5.45 AK pistols at the bottom right of the page. Not sure I can post a screen shot of it so I won't.

They admit that they built such pistols on their page and claim that they werent the only ones. Also are apparently not above getting into virtual shouting matches on their facebook page. Sure the people they're swearing at probably aren't real customers, but its more than a bit unprofessional.

Personally I think they and anyone else that made such pistols should have known better after seeing what happened with 7.62x39.

vamo
March 29, 2014, 08:36 PM
Also how much non surplus of 5.45 is available? I've never been that interested in the round, so I could be completely off base; but I thought non-surplus was near non-existant. If so this is an especially irritating situation for owners of guns that shoot this round.

ugaarguy
March 29, 2014, 08:54 PM
vamo, taking a quick look at Slick Guns shows a few places that have new production Wolf and Red Army Standard 5.45x39 ammo. Lowest price there is $0.25 per round. That's a 10 cent per round price jump over the lowest prices I saw on 7n6 a a few weeks ago. Slick Guns is listing dealers with 7.62x39 as low as 21 cents per round, and Wolf steel cased 5.56 NATO as low as 27 cents per round. So, the Eastern Bloc nations were already making new lead core 5.45x39, but the cost savings on the caliber are now gone.

leadcounsel
March 29, 2014, 09:08 PM
Yep, it is irritating. Particularly given the fact that it is LESS powerful than handguns chambered in .308, 7.62x39, etc.

The surplus ammo was probably nearly dried up anyway, and had gradually crept up from 10 cents per round to around 15-20 cents. Just a couple days ago you could get a spam can for 16 cents per round, plus shipping. Now it's essentially all sold out and new stuff is 30 cents each, effectively doubling the cost of shooting that caliber.

There are a few companies like Wolf and Red Army that make new production without the steel penetrator core, but that means the ammo is closer to 30 cents each.

Grrr.... and so continues the war on the 2nd Amendment and freedom.

wally
March 29, 2014, 10:31 PM
Also how much non surplus of 5.45 is available?
Wolf and Silver Bear have been pretty easy to find and at about the same price as the Wolf or Silver Bear .223 also, Academy regularly has the 30 round "Monarch" non-corrosive steel cased boxes.

I use it when I shoot suppressed with my 5.45x39 SBR -- don't want to mess with corrosive ammo and an expensive can.

But mostly I got the 5.45x39 to use the cheap corrosive surplus, of which I have a nice supply.

Superpsy
March 29, 2014, 11:32 PM
Also confirmed by aimsurplus in case anyone is curious. Per their ar15.com industry forum.

JohnnyK
March 30, 2014, 02:02 PM
it seems they are trying to kill all the cheap ammo...

gungooroo
March 30, 2014, 03:06 PM
The problem with this whole "they made a pistol so lets ban imported ammo with steel core" business is 1. its not armor piercing and 2. what keeps some idiot from making a one-off 7.62x54R "pistol" and banning that from importation, or hell, any imported ammo with a steel core for that matter? Its just ripe for abuse now.

Noah
March 30, 2014, 03:49 PM
The problem with this whole "they made a pistol so lets ban imported ammo with steel core" business is 1. its not armor piercing and 2. what keeps some idiot from making a one-off 7.62x54R "pistol" and banning that from importation, or hell, any imported ammo with a steel core for that matter? Its just ripe for abuse now.

Yes, it is ripe for abuse. That was probably the point. I really do hope gun companies will play nice and stay ways from imported ammo pistols until, and if, we can get this law changed. My brother and I both shoot on a very tight budget and his only non C&R vintage rifle guns are AK-74s. He's going to be very upset...

blarby
March 30, 2014, 04:35 PM
My brother and I both shoot on a very tight budget

Rcbs will do custom order 5.45*39 dies for $160.00

I know that you can swage lead core FMJ's down to .220-.221

I also know that I've seen boxer small rifle primed 5.45*39 steel cases. The headstamp and where they come from... If I could recall, I'd post it. Worst case berdan primers can be had.

Where the price point meets old steel core import cost ? Probably somewhere much further down the line- but I will say this :

With all of the tommyknocking about losing all access to import ammo over the current political situation, there is a serious surge in folks looking at reloading russian rounds again.

Some of that interest is gonna stick somewhere, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if this is one of the calibers that gets a little more looking at from a component standpoint- so I'd keep my ear to the ground on this'n.

tyeo098
March 30, 2014, 04:54 PM
Its not fun, but reloading can be done.
It does require a bit of upfront investment (weird dies and such) but 222 rem cases can be converted to 5.45 and .224" projectiles can be swaged down to .221 with a call to LEE and 25$.

vamo
March 30, 2014, 04:59 PM
The problem with this whole "they made a pistol so lets ban imported ammo with steel core" business is 1. its not armor piercing and 2. what keeps some idiot from making a one-off 7.62x54R "pistol" and banning that from importation, or hell, any imported ammo with a steel core for that matter? Its just ripe for abuse now.

Unfortunately it does not matter if the round will actually pierce armor, steel core ammo is considered armor piercing. The same thing happened with 7.62x39 it was of course a matter of time before enough 5.45 pistols were available to be sold before the atf banned it, but everyone making them should have known better based on the past incidents. Fortunately the 7.62x54r is not as attractive in pistol form as the previously mentioned rounds; not that someone wont make a pistol just because they can, but there is little practical reason for it.

gungooroo
March 30, 2014, 05:25 PM
What amazes me is that not a single big name gun rights site (NAGR, NRA, etc) has picked this up as news on their sites. While I believe that the ATF is blocking importation of the round, an actual press release and some coverage by news organizations would definitely at least draw a clearer picture of what is going on.

mboylan
March 30, 2014, 05:34 PM
They are holding up import forms until it can be officially ruled on. The ruling will only affect 7n6 surplus and not commercial 5.45.

7n6 is actually bigger than .220 in diameter. Bullet construction is almost all steel. Steel jacket, steel core, thin layer of lead above the core and then a dead air space on top below the jacket.

CoalTrain49
March 30, 2014, 05:39 PM
it seems they are trying to kill all the cheap ammo...

Of course you realize this will give everyone a reason to start reloading if they don't already.

It's time to buy some more stock in ATK.

Noah
March 31, 2014, 12:24 AM
Rcbs will do custom order 5.45*39 dies for $160.00

I know that you can swage lead core FMJ's down to .220-.221

I also know that I've seen boxer small rifle primed 5.45*39 steel cases. The headstamp and where they come from... If I could recall, I'd post it. Worst case berdan primers can be had.

Where the price point meets old steel core import cost ? Probably somewhere much further down the line- but I will say this :

With all of the tommyknocking about losing all access to import ammo over the current political situation, there is a serious surge in folks looking at reloading russian rounds again.

Some of that interest is gonna stick somewhere, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if this is one of the calibers that gets a little more looking at from a component standpoint- so I'd keep my ear to the ground on this'n.

I'm glad I shoot 5.56. My brother is headed into one of the service academies this July, and then into the military, so he planned on switching to a 5.56 AR for most of his shooting with Project Appleseed and at home eventually. I'm curious to see what he ends up doing with his AKs. Luckily he still has quite a lot of 7n6. He might invest in reloading for them. He's never liked the commercial 5.45 options.

Wildbillz
March 31, 2014, 11:34 AM
Well this should only be applicable to surplus ammo, not the commercial stuff (Tiger ammo and such) without the steel in the bullet. So 5.45 should still be available in those loadings. Just going to cost more.

Like I have said many times in many places. If you like a surplus caliber, get the gear to reload it. I bought 5.45x39 dies in a group buy and I don't even shoot the stuff. :evil:

WB

SilentStalker
March 31, 2014, 02:26 PM
Yep. There is a run on this stuff everywhere. I just checked all of my normal 5.45 sources and they are all sold out.

1KPerDay
March 31, 2014, 02:41 PM
I just hope this results in some US mfg making NON MAGNETIC, non corrosive 5.45. Other than $$$$$hornady$$$$$.

SilentStalker
March 31, 2014, 03:05 PM
Yeah, who makes this within the US aside from Hornady? Hornady is $20+ a box and Wolf was $8.80 a box for non corrosive, corrosive surplus was much cheaper than that. I just don't get these laws. Knives and broadhead arrows can penetrate soft armor real easily yet they are regulated like this, just saying.

JohnnyK
March 31, 2014, 07:08 PM
gun control isnt about the gun... just the control.

Wildbillz
March 31, 2014, 07:30 PM
Yeah, who makes this within the US aside from Hornady? Hornady is $20+ a box and Wolf was $8.80 a box for non corrosive, corrosive surplus was much cheaper than that. I just don't get these laws. Knives and broadhead arrows can penetrate soft armor real easily yet they are regulated like this, just saying.
I think that Hornady gets there case from overseas. There steel as I recall.

WB

1KPerDay
March 31, 2014, 07:37 PM
Yep, hornady's cases are steel.

carpboy
April 1, 2014, 03:52 AM
The rules should be changed by CONGRESS so that the ATF can only ban imports of "AP"rounds of a certain caliber if a pistol is available for purchase on the commercial market during a calender year.A pistol must be delivered within 1yr from the date it was ordered from a distributor or mfr for the ban to remain in effect.A minimum of 500 pistols from ANY and ALL mfrs must be serialized for the ban to remain in effect.Cobbled together prototypes and vaporware will not count.The pistols MUST be available on the commercial market for a ban to take effect.The ATF is gaming the system,and Congress needs to spank them by clarifying the rules and penalizing the ATF by cutting their budget every time they try these little shenanigans.

PabloJ
April 1, 2014, 05:34 AM
I would never pick this caliber over 5,56x45. The 5,45x39 is only used in some former Soviet Republics while 5,56 seems to be world standard for military battle rifles. The same holds for 7,62x25 and 9x18. I mean pack of 50 9x19 Federal HST 124gr is about $29 while 25 pack of Hornady JHPs for 9x19 is about $20.:rolleyes: Well, as they say education in America very, very expensive.

p2000sk
April 1, 2014, 06:10 PM
3 pack of empty ammo shipping crates for $10.00
http://www.usacsales.com/misc/empty-wooden-crate

mboylan
April 1, 2014, 09:13 PM
Its not fun, but reloading can be done.
It does require a bit of upfront investment (weird dies and such) but 222 rem cases can be converted to 5.45 and .224" projectiles can be swaged down to .221 with a call to LEE and 25$.
It's cheaper just to buy the Wolf and Brown Bear lead core steel cased stuff.

Ignition Override
April 1, 2014, 09:53 PM
Even though this appears to be a backwards perspective, this temporary (or long-term) ban on All imported 5.45 ammo is just more proof of the need to first buy the ammo, then the gun.

It looks like prices for Saigas (5.45), Tantals and AK-74s will be dropping a bit, does it not?

One day in the distant future possibly even Russian-made 7.62x39 could be banned.

tyeo098
April 2, 2014, 05:14 PM
I sure hope so. Gives gunsmiths who can rebarrel a lot of stuff to work with!

JustinJ
April 2, 2014, 06:36 PM
Sucks but I've pretty much moved away from surplus 7N6 after reading about the toxicity of it's fumes. According to a book I have, the ammo stockpiles posed a dilemma after East and West Germany were reunified because East had tons of it but West thought it too toxic to use. Unfortunately the book had little other detail but its not hard to believe that the health and safety of Soviet soldiers was low and the priority list when it came to ammo production.

1KPerDay
April 2, 2014, 06:45 PM
It sure does stink, that's for sure.

Davek1977
April 2, 2014, 07:08 PM
3 pack of empty ammo shipping crates for $10.00 Which relates to the topic of the OP in what way?

atblis
April 2, 2014, 10:14 PM
Sucks but I've pretty much moved away from surplus 7N6 after reading about the toxicity of it's fumes. According to a book I have, the ammo stockpiles posed a dilemma after East and West Germany were reunified because East had tons of it but West thought it too toxic to use. Unfortunately the book had little other detail but its not hard to believe that the health and safety of Soviet soldiers was low and the priority list when it came to ammo production.
That wouldn't surprise me one bit.

OARNGESI
April 3, 2014, 02:04 AM
Hopefully this means we will be seeing some nice 74 pistols coming in

JohnnyK
April 3, 2014, 09:14 PM
id rather have the cheap ammo... a folded tantal is close enough to a pistol to me.

justice06rr
April 3, 2014, 10:25 PM
I would never pick this caliber over 5,56x45. The 5,45x39 is only used in some former Soviet Republics while 5,56 seems to be world standard for military battle rifles.

+10000

I was going to add a 5.45x39 AK to the safe, but this nonsense has put a stopper to that. I saw a Romanian SAR-2 AK74 for $499 at the LGS two weeks ago and almost picked it up. Now i'm glad I didn't because surplus ammo is not available anymore.

Does anyone know How long will the importation ban last? Does it have a sunset i.e. the AWB or just whenever they feel like repealing it?

mboylan
April 3, 2014, 10:47 PM
Even though this appears to be a backwards perspective, this temporary (or long-term) ban on All imported 5.45 ammo is just more proof of the need to first buy the ammo, then the gun.

It looks like prices for Saigas (5.45), Tantals and AK-74s will be dropping a bit, does it not?

One day in the distant future possibly even Russian-made 7.62x39 could be banned.
You are wrong. There is absolutely no ban on imported lead core 5.45x39. Form 6s are being held up for corrosive steel core 7n6 surplus ammo. The commercial stuff is unaffected.

1KPerDay
April 3, 2014, 11:21 PM
+10000

I was going to add a 5.45x39 AK to the safe, but this nonsense has put a stopper to that. I saw a Romanian SAR-2 AK74 for $499 at the LGS two weeks ago and almost picked it up. Now i'm glad I didn't because surplus ammo is not available anymore.

Does anyone know How long will the importation ban last? Does it have a sunset i.e. the AWB or just whenever they feel like repealing it?
5.45 ammo is plentiful. 7n6 has gotten a bit scarce, but it's stinky and corrosive anyway. Dan's has crates for $409 as of today...

Let's not get all paranoid.

5.45x39 1,080RDS SEALED TIN $209.99 Add To Cart!!! 5.45x39 Russian Military surplus. 1,080 rounds- sealed tin. (opener not included)
5.45x39 2,160RDS WOOD CASE $409.99 Add To Cart!!! 5.45X39 Russian military surplus. Original 2,160 rounds wood case. Two sealed tins with opener.

Cooldill
April 3, 2014, 11:28 PM
I think I might be going with 7.62x39mm for my first AK... :'(

Davek1977
April 4, 2014, 04:21 AM
Does anyone know How long will the importation ban last? Does it have a sunset i.e. the AWB or just whenever they feel like repealing it? I wouldn't hold my breath for repeal. it fits the govt definition of armor piercing and is subject to the same ban on all other similar ammo that can be fired from a handgun. 7.62x39, .223/5.46, and .308/7.62x51 steel core ammo (with an exception made for M855) is considered armor piercing and banned from importation. It would take a cchange in the law, or at the very least, interpretation of the law, to allow importation of steel cored ammo in any caliber that kind be fired from a handgun.

jason41987
April 4, 2014, 12:19 PM
wow, some of the comments i see on here are sickening to any real gun owner.. along the lines of "i dont use 5.45, so who cares what happens to it".. and everyone should give a damn about this case because complacency only gives the ATF the green light to put restrictions on other types of ammunition and firearms they have no jurisdiction to do.. and frankly the "i dont care because it doesnt effect me" selfish attitude is only going to hurt you in the future when the anti gun community has been allowed to use things such as this to pick up more momentum to pass even more restrictive laws that will effect you later.. if you cant stop it on a ban they had absolutely no justification to make, then you'll never be able to

tyeo098
April 4, 2014, 01:05 PM
I think I might be going with 7.62x39mm for my first AK... :'(
Why? There is just as much commercial 5.45x39 as commercial 7.62x39

Surplus 7.62x39 was banned from import a decade or so.

You'd be stuck buying commercial either way.

Trent
April 4, 2014, 01:22 PM
I really don't have anything to contribute other than to say ... "this sucks."

Onward Allusion
April 4, 2014, 01:39 PM
Wait a second... So, if a handgun cartridge has a steel core, it is considered Armor Piercing??? IIRC, there was a bunch of RWS 9mm floating around that had a magnetic core under a copper jacket. Can someone shed some light on this?

jason41987
April 4, 2014, 01:42 PM
well the worst thing you could do is just roll over and take it as if you have to accept what the ATF UNLAWFULLY did.. we need to fight back.. this issue is being taken to court and we need to support that case in any way possible.. if im not mistaken GOA (gun owners of america) are the ones fighting it

1KPerDay
April 4, 2014, 01:52 PM
Wait a second... So, if a handgun cartridge has a steel core, it is considered Armor Piercing??? IIRC, there was a bunch of RWS 9mm floating around that had a magnetic core under a copper jacket. Can someone shed some light on this?
You sure it was steel CORE and not steel JACKET?

Onward Allusion
April 4, 2014, 02:12 PM
Yes. Copper jacket, brass cased, but it was still sticking to a magnet.

EDIT - Did a bit of Googling and it would appear that RWS has some steel in its jacket.

SilentStalker
April 4, 2014, 02:26 PM
Yeah, these statements like, "Who cares, 5.45 sucks compared to 5.56," pisses me off. People that think this does not effect them because they do not have this caliber need to wake up. We have all known for quite some time that they can rewrite what is legal to illegal at any point in time. So, yes this effects us all. I happen to have a few AK's in 5.45 and I love shooting them. I actually have become more fond of AK's than I have any AR's over the years, not sure why but for some reason I find the AK platform more enjoyable to shoot. If we all get thism "who cares because I don't have that round," mentality then none of us will be enjoying any target shooting one day.

Arizona_Mike
April 4, 2014, 02:34 PM
I agree. Even before I got into Gun Culture 2.0 recently I was always a Gun Culture 1.0 member who felt that other's rights were my rights too and I had no patients for the "please eat me last" game.

I also don't agree with the hate directed at this alleged manufacturer. What have they done that T/C has not done many times over? The ATF's move on 7.62x39 was prompted over pre-sales publicity of the Olympic Arms OA-93 despite none of the 7 .30 cal prototypes ever being sold. It was an excuse not a reason.

Mike

Davek1977
April 4, 2014, 03:07 PM
Tyeo08 said:

Surplus 7.62x39 was banned from import a decade or so.

That is simply inaccurate. Hundreds of thousands of rounds of Yugo M67 surplus have been imported within the last ten years. "Surplus" has nothing to do with the quation other than than 7n6 just happens to be "surplus". The issue is the steel core. Yugo M67 7.62x39 used a leadcore bullet, and there's no issue in importing it.

1KPerDay
April 4, 2014, 03:21 PM
Yes. Copper jacket, brass cased, but it was still sticking to a magnet.
Lots of ammo does that. "bi-metal" jackets, lead core. WWB .38 special FMJ has magnetic jackets, for example. So does all USGI M80 (7.62) ball I've seen. So does all USGI M2 (.30-06) ball I've tried. So does Greek HXP .30-06. So does nearly all Russian commercial ammo of any caliber.

tyeo098
April 4, 2014, 07:18 PM
Tyeo08 said:



That is simply inaccurate. Hundreds of thousands of rounds of Yugo M67 surplus have been imported within the last ten years. "Surplus" has nothing to do with the quation other than than 7n6 just happens to be "surplus". The issue is the steel core. Yugo M67 7.62x39 used a leadcore bullet, and there's no issue in importing it.
My apologies, that's what I was alluding to.

Surplus of similar construction.

If the Yugoslavs made up a crap ton of 545 using lead cored and sold it all off as surplus (the same way they did the M67) it would very easily end up on the shores here.

jason41987
April 4, 2014, 07:35 PM
well 7n6 doesnt even fit the ATFs own description of armor piercing, and the intent of the legislation that bans certain armor piercing traits was never intended to be used on anything besides pistols.. what the ATF is doing is overstepping their bounds and bending a law they have no business bending, they are an out of control, rogue organization and as long as they are allowed to get away with things like the 7n6 ban, none of your ammo is safe

and for that matter, the second amendment was not written for hunting, nor was it writte for target shooting, it was written to be our defense against foreign invasion and domestic tyranny.. last i checked the opponents you may face in either scenario are heavily armor, thus not only should armor piercing be allowed, but its our right to be as best equipped to face either of those threats as we can possibly be.. any attempts to limit our ability to do that through AP bans is a complete violation of the second amendment

Trent
April 4, 2014, 08:58 PM
Just be glad they base the "armor piercing" clause on some arbitrary metallurgy which doesn't really matter in the end of things, rather than.. you know.. the ability to penetrate armor.

My 50 BMG FMJ rounds are just copper and lead, but ... wouldn't want to get hit with one, armor or no armor.

;)

EDIT: Modern plate armor defeats AP ball anyway, so it really doesn't matter what you shoot; rather, it matters where you aim.

atblis
April 9, 2014, 08:18 AM
Hmmm

http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2014/04/040714-special-advisory-test-examination-and-classification-7n6-545x39-ammunition.html

Never heard of this "commercially available" pistol. Looks more like a rifle anyways.

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