Nobody in America can buy a gun...


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Nick1911
April 3, 2004, 04:01 PM
I was in a few local gun shops today, and both told me that the NICS system was down. One even tried to call in (a stack of paperwork he'd accumulated...) and had it on speakerphone. It gave a menu of options, bob pressed "1" and it said that is was re-directing to a teller, and the line went dead. Bob said that it went down sometime yesterday, and still isn't up. ***? Is this just in Indiana? I went to 2 shops and they both had the same problem. Anyone got any ideas?

Nick

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nhhillbilly
April 3, 2004, 04:10 PM
NH is down also. Believe this to be federal problem. All gun shops out of business for selling guns.

Nick1911
April 3, 2004, 04:15 PM
<tinfoil hat>

So if the .gov can suspend gun sales nationally by shutting this system down (minus private sales) then dosn't this seem screwy? Me thinks that this is a "planned outage" to see what kind of negetive feedback they get. Before long they will make it so that NICS only works on weekdays. Then tighter and tighter...

two days. I think that is way too long for any system to be down, considering the resourses the .gov has at its disposial.

</tinfoil hat>

7.62FullMetalJacket
April 3, 2004, 04:20 PM
In Utah if you are a CFL permit holder, they simply call to verify the status of the CFL. No NICS for me :)

However, a technical malfunction is not an option for commerce in any goods.....oh, wait, I forgot the government was in charge. :mad:

Brian Dale
April 3, 2004, 04:24 PM
Time to get that law thrown out. This is proof that the lame assurances that accompanied its passage were false. People are being harmed here, right now.

Thumper
April 3, 2004, 04:30 PM
In Utah if you are a CFL permit holder, they simply call to verify the status of the CFL.

Heck, they don't even call here. Your CHL number goes on the back of your yellow form and you're good to go.

7.62FullMetalJacket
April 3, 2004, 04:31 PM
I like Texas ;)

Nick1911
April 3, 2004, 04:32 PM
Who's email account do we need to nuke?

(Mods: Should we float this? It seems pretty prudent that people know about this and respond.)

longeyes
April 3, 2004, 04:37 PM
Fishy.

Trial run?

7.62FullMetalJacket
April 3, 2004, 04:46 PM
As the Gore "mercenaries" pleaded in 2000, forms and paperwork are "hypertechnical compliance." So, let us move beyond the BS and just sell guns. You know, as was the custom previously.

Brian Dale
April 3, 2004, 04:50 PM
Nick, no mailbombs. So: will we find out if it was sabotage from inside our outside, failure to build a robust system, or system overload after this past week's news? Could an executive order toss the requirement out? Congress should hear from us on this issue. {Edited to add: Again.}

Does current law provide for sales to proceed after 3 days in the absence of a "Deny" answer from the system, or was that just a proposal that was floated once a few years ago?

Jeff Thomas
April 3, 2004, 04:54 PM
Best solutions I've seen (to this occasional problem, not that unusual ...) are:

1. CCW / CHL permit ... therefore, no need for NICS call;

2. Buy what you can when you can, so that it is never too big a deal if you can't buy another firearm at the time, and;

3. Check local ads, and make a private purchase from an individual in your state.

I've never seen stat's on how often the system is down, but it either happens most often on the weekend, or it is simply more noticable then. This does indeed injure commerce, and potentially people. Good luck.

Regards from TX

Hkmp5sd
April 3, 2004, 05:03 PM
1. CCW holders are exempt.

2. If the computer is down, whether scheduled or not, or the background check may not be performed for some other reason, if the FFL does not receive an answer by the end of the FFL's next business day, the FFL may go ahead and transfer the gun without approval. (Sorry about that for the tin-foil hat crowd. :))

boofus
April 3, 2004, 05:06 PM
Yes this is one of the reasons I got a Texas CHL. So I can buy guns without having to go through that 30 minute phone call to the FBI every time. Plus like someone else said it tends to go down on the weekends. Especially during gun shows. If you want to see what 1000 angry gun owners looks like, go to a gun show when NICS is down. :neener:

Too bad they never get that worked up when Ted 'the driver' Kennedy or John 'Flipper' Kerry vote for gun control.

Brian Dale
April 3, 2004, 05:14 PM
re: No. 2 above—Thanks for the info, mp5!

RatFink
April 3, 2004, 05:32 PM
One of the reasons I finally got my CCW was so I didn't have to go through the NICS check anymore, while it's an instant check here in AZ, I've always had to wait three days and I never found out why. I would go in with my brother to buy a gun, he would leave with his and I had to wait 3 days. So now I have my CCW and no longer have to go through the check.

BTW, I was at the Cross-Roads of the West gun show today when the system went down, what a nightmare that was, people lined up 10 deep at tables wanting to take their new pistol home and having to wait for the GOV to get it's crap together before they could.

Bainx
April 3, 2004, 05:35 PM
You guys seem to be missing the point here.

"WE GOT THE POWER, WE GOT THE POWER"

Just as in three of the last six purchases I made, the TICS system [TN] was down. How CONVENIENT!! I waited 5 full hours once.

3 out of 6. Hmmm,,,, that is 50% down.
I do believe, that if I had the money, the power, the ummph that these guys have, I could at least have a computer system that is operational over 50% of the time!
State boys, try me, I am willing to enter into a subcontract to run TICS and I guarantee your butt, it will be operational more than 50% of the time.

Well, whadda ya say?

When YOU have the power to decide wether or not someone gets to buy something or not, that is REAL POWER, don't you agree?







:cuss: :cuss:

Hkmp5sd
April 3, 2004, 05:49 PM
That's Florida only. Might not help the rest of you folks. :)

7.62FullMetalJacket
April 3, 2004, 05:50 PM
BTW, I was at the Cross-Roads of the West gun show today when the system went down, what a nightmare that was, people lined up 10 deep at tables wanting to take their new pistol home and having to wait for the GOV to get it's crap together before they could.

Was it resolved? Or a riot?

RatFink
April 3, 2004, 05:58 PM
Was it resolved? Or a riot?

Actually all those Evil Gun enthusiests were very well behaved, and it was resolved by around 11:00 am or so.

7.62FullMetalJacket
April 3, 2004, 06:27 PM
I was suspecting some angst since gun shows (including that large loophole) are limited affairs. You find the deal, make offer, offer is accepted, then t h e w a i t for the gov. to do their part.

I am glad to hear that inanimate, evil blued and stainless objects did not hurt anyone. :evil:

geekWithA.45
April 3, 2004, 06:35 PM
Remember there was a failsafe built into NICs so it couldn't be used as a choke point:

IIRC, any transaction not flagged as denied after N hours (48? 72?) automatically becomes a PROCEED.

cordex
April 3, 2004, 06:38 PM
Indiana used to be like Texas and Florida in that a handgun permit holder could just flash a license and walk out with the gun, but some time ago the Indiana State Police compliance check fell out of favor with the Fed.gov and we now have to submit to two checks - a state and a Federal - but we can bypass the state using our permit.

I wonder if a valid Florida permit would get us out of the Federal check ... hmmm .....

lee n. field
April 3, 2004, 06:42 PM
It's probably running on some lame-ass Windows 95 box. Running at 50% system resources. "Blue screens, blue screens, nothing but blue screens, do I see."

Nick1911
April 3, 2004, 10:55 PM
Does anyone know when the failure started and\or when it was resolved? Before today I didn't know that the NICS system ever went down; I guess it happens?

Nick

mrapathy2000
April 3, 2004, 11:22 PM
in iowa we bypass NICS with acquire permits and CCW permits. have to undergo background check to get either and update them yearly via sheriffs office. thing that sucks is not all Sheriffs offices let ordinary citizens get permits.

BigBlueEyedDevil
April 3, 2004, 11:30 PM
When I purchased my SA Champion last saturday, the computer system was down as well. But it was up and running the next day. BIG BLUE

Jeff Thomas
April 3, 2004, 11:47 PM
Nick ... oh yeah. This definitely happens, and is not that unusual. Stat's I don't have. But it is a common complaint. Ask an FFL, and they'll probably roll their eyes. How would you like to be in a business that requires government approval for so many transactions ... and the government can't get its act together ... tough deal. :rolleyes:

Regards from TX

artherd
April 4, 2004, 03:50 AM
IIRC, any transaction not flagged as denied after N hours (48? 72?) automatically becomes a PROCEED.

This implies the ability to get transactions INTO the system first.

Based on the initial post, NICS is down so hard that this is not an option at this time.

If that is the case, then the 'fail-safe' was just an illusion.

This should be legistlated, and it should read something like:

a) In event a transaction cannot be entered due to reasons existing outside the physical property of the FFL, after a period of 24 hours, if after documented attempt to enter a transaction 3 times, no denial is recived, the FFL is authorized to proceed with the transaction.

Wildalaska
April 4, 2004, 05:02 AM
Lets see, IIRC (and correct my stats someone), the NICS system has been down for a total of about 59 hours over the past 3 years. Its open 18 hours a day, 7 days a week, or about 138,000 hours over those same 3 years. Wanna guess what the uptime percentage is...????

Sorry I dont see an occasional outage as "tinfoi hat" stuff....

PS...If something brings the system down 100%, I dont think we are gonna be worried about yellow forms.


WildgetapermitanddontworryaboutitAlaska

mrapathy2000
April 4, 2004, 05:10 AM
the ATF website usually post when an outage will occur. can anyone get to the ATF website??

fjolnirsson
April 4, 2004, 05:24 AM
Lets see, IIRC (and correct my stats someone), the NICS system has been down for a total of about 59 hours over the past 3 years. Its open 18 hours a day, 7 days a week, or about 138,000 hours over those same 3 years. Wanna guess what the uptime percentage is...????

Doesn't matter. While I don't feel this is a deliberate shut down, it doesn't help the woman attempting to buy her first gun because she is being stalked. The citizens of this country should not be put at risk because of a violation of our rights.

Wildalaska
April 4, 2004, 05:34 AM
The citizens of this country should not be put at risk because of a violation of our rights.

Sorry I dont see NICs as a violation of rights, nor does any court, nor would any court even under a clear ruling that there is an individual right to bear arms...

And if the hypotheticsl young lady cant buy a gun for a few hours because NICs is down, I am sure that she can find herslef a private sale...


WildsameolddebateAlaska

artherd
April 4, 2004, 06:29 AM
Sorry I dont see NICs as a violation of rights, nor does any court, nor would any court even under a clear ruling that there is an individual right to bear arms...

Agreed in principle, when it's working. Checks should take much less time however. It should be seconds.

WonderNine
April 4, 2004, 08:46 AM
I understand the NICs was down for a few days a few years back as well. Obviously it wouldn't keep guns out of the hands of people who already own them, but imagine the implications. The NICs shouldn't exist in the first place as far as I'm concerned, but for it to be down for an entire day is inexcusable. It worked on 9/11/2001 didn't it?!?!?! :cuss:

NC Shooter
April 4, 2004, 09:05 AM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In Utah if you are a CFL permit holder, they simply call to verify the status of the CFL.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



>Heck, they don't even call here. Your CHL number goes on the back of >your yellow form and you're good to go.


>__________________
>Ronnie

Same here in North Carolina for long guns. For handguns we still have to get a pistol permit from the local sheriff and hind it in at the time of purchase. (I purchase 5 at a time and hold them until they are needed)

Bainx
April 4, 2004, 10:17 AM
Tamara I have been told that in Tennessee, the TICS system is independent of the NICS system. Is this true?
Also, one FFL told me that they actually KEEP records also rather than destroying them.

The guy at the gunshop where I made my last purchase [or had to wait until the next day rather] told me that whenever it rains, the system seems to go down.
Interesting.

As for the overall picture, the Gubment is barely able to deliver mail. TICS is yet another example of them screwing something up.

If you want waste, abuse, fraud and inefficiency, put the Gubment in charge of it!

Waitone
April 4, 2004, 12:56 PM
The highwater mark of the anti-gun movement was during Clintoon's reign at the MMM on Washington, DC. Right at the height of festivities NICS went down and stayed down for the remained of the protest. Clinton and Co conclusively demonstrated NICS can and will be used as a choke point regardless of contrary provisions.

It Dubya's administration doing the same thing? I doubt it. But it does point out how a tool is a neutral agent. Who weilds the tools determines how it is used.

Mr. Clark
April 4, 2004, 04:00 PM
Requiring a background check to purchase a gun is a violation of our rights.

Shall...Not...Be...Infringed...

The NICS is the system that facilitates that violation. NICS has got to go. Along with the law that makes such a check necessary (instant or not) and the traitors who voted for it.
:cuss:

If someone shouldn't be allowed to own a gun because they are still a danger, they should still be in jail. Argue for reform of the criminal justice system. Argue for longer sentences. Argue against parole for violent offenders. Why argue for the infringement of my rights?

Besides, anyone who thinks NICS actually stops criminals from getting guns needs to remove their head from the sand and take a look around.

LynnMassGuy
April 4, 2004, 04:19 PM
It was down in MA also. F@#$ing BS!!!! One of the biggest sales days of the week!!! Thats gotta hurt retailers.

gander
April 5, 2004, 07:05 AM
Greetings from sohio!
just a comment about 72 hours is a proceed. Don't bet on it. Most gunstore operators have given up expecting big brother to honor the law.
Just try and get your local gun store to proceed with out clearance.

standby
April 5, 2004, 12:05 PM
At the Wannemacher Gun Show in Tulsa (the largest gun show in the country) on Saturday there was an announcement over the intercom that all dealers use an alternate phone number and password to access the NICS check system while the "main" system was down. The announcer said this was a special "deal" (his exact words) he had made with the ATF to get checks processed for Wannemacher patrons and that these would be the only checks being processed in the country.

No speculation or hearsay on my part. I was there and heard it myself. I am sure there were several members of this site who were there when this transpired and will confirm what I am saying.

PaladinX13
April 5, 2004, 02:17 PM
Happened back in '99 [WorldNewDaily] (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=15180)

According to a gun lawyer in that article, if NICS isn't working, the FFL is free to act as if it doesn't exist... but supposedly they won't because they're terrified of ATF reprisals.

artherd
April 5, 2004, 02:48 PM
It was down in MA also. F@#$ing BS!!!! One of the biggest sales days of the week!!! Thats gotta hurt retailers.

At the Wannemacher Gun Show in Tulsa (the largest gun show in the country)

Now isn't that intresting...

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