Article: ATF attempt to illegally scan gun owners info


April 3, 2014, 09:23 AM
I created a thread regarding this situation recently but petty arguing and name calling between a few posters got it locked. Let's try not to let that happen to this one. I think too that this recent article gives more information on the subject and if people read the whole thing will answer many questions right off the bat. As it says in the article, some things can't be disclosed yet for legal purposes.

There is a similar but not identical situation occurring with Ares Armor but let's keep this thread focused on PAC N Arms as there are already threads on Ares.

While this is a forum and every member is entitled to their opinion my hope for this thread is the knowledge exchange of the impact and consequences of these acts by the ATF (whether they be localized or on a broader scale we're just starting to realize), and the potential options American citizens and businesses have to safe guard our privacy and Freedoms, rather than the ongoing debate of why it matters if they copy everyone's records (that has been discussed at length in other threads).

The most recent article. (Note there are 2 pop ups)

Edit: Thanks to dalek1967 for bringing the new article to my attention.

From the article:
Chabot says that he has spoken to numerous agents in various federal agencies and they have all expressed concern over the cavalier attitude of the ATF. And why shouldn't they? Anyone remember Waco? How about Ruby Ridge? Fast and Furious? Yes, all of those were the product of the ATF...

Phil Chabot did tell Freedom Outpost that he does want other gun dealers to stand up against illegal actions by the ATF for the sake of their customers privacy. I applaud his efforts to stand his ground, based on the law.

Note: I am a customer of PAC N Arms with first hand knowledge of the situation but am otherwise not affiliated.

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April 3, 2014, 02:27 PM
I could not really find any answers in there as you mentioned.

However, they do mention Ares right in the article, and I recently saw an interview with him: he is going to be doing an encoding process on his customers' paperworks, as to not be in violation with the illegal raids, and simply hand over encoded papers.

Also, he mentioned the ATF's search warrant has not yet been returned to the U.S. DA's office, which means it was an illegal search/seizure.

So, what you have here is a simple case of what is called consent search: they ask to search/scan your records. Sometimes the way the question is posed seems like a demand or order, but it IS a consent search they are after, and it would be reflected that way in their reports. However, they are allegedly taking it just a half-step further and making threats if you do not comply with the request. Solution: if you are tentatively a target subject for said "raid" use every kind of recording device you have at your disposal for evidence.

Turning off the surveillance cameras at the Ares store is the first thing the ATF agents did when they walked in. Olympus makes some excellent digi-corders which you can hide on you, and have an integrated USB for downloading said recordings.

April 3, 2014, 03:32 PM
The ATF broke into Ares when they were closed so there is no consent search but that's a topic for another thread.

The answers I mentioned are to some of the questions I read previously in other threads, people mistaking this situation for just another compliance inspection or thinking the ATF merely asked for copies of every single record rather than forced their access, or not understanding the threats to revoke licensing if their illegal demands were not met.

I believe the article also touches on the issue of a compliance inspector claiming to be simultaneously running criminal investigations on individuals without any violation being present in the paperwork in question (to the best of my knowledge IOI's do not have the authority to conduct separate criminal investigations outside the scope of the audit).

Why yes Mr. Gun shop owner I DO have investigations on every American citizen, which is precisely why we need to build this illegal registry... :)

April 3, 2014, 03:51 PM
This can't end well for us

April 3, 2014, 04:16 PM
horsemen61 - your signature says it all. If everyone is running around doing their own thing or not committed to helping on at least a basic level they aren't going to get far. However one people united in the same cause such as Liberty; makes small numbers formidable, procures success to the weak, and esteem to all.

With over 100 million gun owners in the US, change can happen if we want it to. If we care enough to get off the couch. I think more and more people are realizing that.
And right now help is needed for the people like Phil Chabot that are trying to make a stand and not let these things get swept under the rug, in the hopes that bringing it to light will bring change and help protect American gun owners.

April 3, 2014, 04:36 PM
Maybe, what we need is a 2014 version of FOPA with more emphasis on reigning in the ATF. FOPA 1986 did seem to address some concerns regarding the ATF.

"It concluded that seventy-five percent of ATF prosecutions were "constitutionally improper", especially on Second Amendment issues.[2]"

"The gun rights movement lobbied Congress to pass the FOPA to prevent the abuse of regulatory power — in particular, to address claims that the ATF was repeatedly inspecting FFL holders for the apparent purpose of harassment intended to drive the FFL holders out of business (as the FFL holders would constantly be having to tend to ATF inspections instead of to customers)."


April 3, 2014, 09:11 PM
That's an excellent point Midwest. I think FOPA was the "compromise" for getting the Gun Control Act passed that year but it's an excellent point that the next step in the near future may be to push for an updated version of this.

April 4, 2014, 09:09 AM
The ATF broke into Ares when they were closed so there is no consent search but that's a topic for another thread.

[/I] :)
I can appreciate you wanting to direct the conversation.

However, no, a consent search WAS the initial scenario with Ares and a majority of HOW the ATF is trying to conduct these raids ACROSS the country.

It is EXTREMELY important for all people to see this illegal procedure of trying to FORCE a consent search vs. a usual ATF inspection of an FFL.

Go to the websites of Ares and the rest which are currently under investigation, and buy whatever you can afford to in order to support their legal fees. Ares dropped $20,000 in their first WEEK of legal fees, fighting the ATF which is already bank rolled by We the People, unfortunately...

Documentation FFLs: Use video and audio recording equipment of ALL your "inspections" from here on out- I cannot more highly emphasize this, and do NOT turn them off when asked to!!

April 4, 2014, 11:18 AM
PAC N Arms as well is fighting out of pocket with legal fees against a corrupt agency that like you said Powder, is using OUR money to do it.

Cameras/audio are key, they go after them as much as they can but have them installed, even cheap ones and leave them on and say it's company policy. The key is not to be bullied or intimidated. They will say all sorts of ludicrous things that simply aren't true.

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