Now it is official: shouldering a pistol does not make it an SBR


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Arizona_Mike
April 7, 2014, 03:55 PM
http://www.gunsandammo.com/files/2014/04/S72-LEGAL-B1404030900021.jpg

Mike

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Theohazard
April 7, 2014, 04:08 PM
Thanks! Now it's going to be even easier to debunk this myth when it come up. I find it satisfying that the ATF is using the exact same arguments that many of us used when explaining why shouldering the SIG SB15 is perfectly legal.

wally
April 7, 2014, 04:19 PM
I find it satisfying that the ATF is using the exact same arguments that many of us used when explaining why shouldering the SIG SB15 is perfectly legal.

They're here!

:)

stressed
April 7, 2014, 08:12 PM
How well do the "braces" shoulder, in both the AR and AK variants? I have always been curious about this.

Like some input from owners, how far off is it from shouldering a stocked weapon? So you won't catch flak for having the brace without the straps?

plodder
April 7, 2014, 09:59 PM
Now it is official: shouldering a pistol does not make it an SBR
* for the time being, subject to change.

wally
April 7, 2014, 10:09 PM
Like some input from owners, how far off is it from shouldering a stocked weapon? So you won't catch flak for having the brace without the straps?

You want the straps, it stiffens it at the bottom. I've shot my 9mm AR SBR and 9mm AR pistol side-by side and if you shoot squared up, nose to the charging handle like I do there is no practical difference when shooting, although the CTR stock is lighter and can have more length if you want it.

I've seen spacers to make the SB-15 not come so far forward on the pistol tube if you want more length, and I've heard of others using rifle tubes to increase the length. Best to drill the threads on the rifle tube so it can't take an A2 stock.

I've the pistol lower setup to test things out while waiting for SBR stamps, the SB-15 make me rethink needing any more stamps. Unless you can't live without a vertical grip the SB-15 really works well, looks kind of funky but who really cares! Its a nice "loophole".

stressed
April 7, 2014, 10:12 PM
Thanks Wally, kind of what I figured. I would believe the AK to be a different animal though due to the lack of buffer tube and heavier recoil.

Theohazard
April 8, 2014, 03:20 AM
Now it is official: shouldering a pistol does not make it an SBR* for the time being, subject to change.
No, the ATF doesn't control how you shoot your guns. If the ATF somehow made shouldering a pistol illegal, then shooting a pistol using a two-handed grip would also be illegal: The official BATFE definition of a pistol includes the phrase "designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand". But most people use a two-handed grip to shoot their pistols and it's completely OK, because they have no control over how people shoot their guns.

Sure, they might change their mind and decide that the SB15 isn't really designed as an arm brace and that adding it to an AR pistol makes it an illegal SBR. But they're never going to be able to control how you actually shoot it.

justice06rr
April 8, 2014, 03:42 AM
This is good news. It is definitely a step forward and will put SigBrace users (and speculator's) minds at ease when shouldering an AR Pistol.

I might have to get one for mine...

BigG
April 8, 2014, 11:37 AM
A freaking AR15 pistol? From the title I thought it was an actual pistol with a shoulder stock like a Luger or old revolver.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSjLj1ij-Ep8-7AGV4c7xlBRJKLNHa2MyS2FcvHci_y4-hgoHZWfw

I would agree with the others who think the call will change as needed by the BATFE.

Quiet
April 18, 2014, 11:14 AM
Now it is official: shouldering a pistol does not make it an SBR

* for the time being, subject to change.

And subject to State SBR/SBS laws that do not conform with Federal SBR/SBS laws.

lilguy
April 18, 2014, 09:34 PM
How do you shoulder a pistol without a stock? I have a KELTEC AR pistol and can't picture what's being discussed.

dogtown tom
April 19, 2014, 01:14 PM
lilguy How do you shoulder a pistol without a stock? I have a KELTEC AR pistol and can't picture what's being discussed.


http://sigsauer.com/SigStore/sb15-pistol-stabilizing-brace-552.aspx

AmEngRifles
May 31, 2014, 10:20 AM
Lilguy, you really can't. But you can use a sling to press forward and generate more stability with a positive forward force.

The AR-15 is the only rifle/pistol platform (that I am aware of) that requires the lower receiver buffer tube, due to the action design. That means there is a protrusion coming out the back end of the pistol version (the buffer tube). This has lead to some placing that buffer tube directly against their shoulder. ATF says that is ok.

Please note there are simple but significant design differences between a rifle and pistol buffer tube. As already noted, the full length RIFLE buffer tube is threaded at the very end to allow the butt plate to be held in place by a screw, which in turn keeps the A1 or A2 butt stock in place on the rifle. The CARBINE tube has the spine with drilled stop positions for the sliding butt stock. The PISTOL buffer tube is simply a round tube to house and control the action of the recoil spring and buffer. No threaded holes, no spine.

Theohazard
May 31, 2014, 01:12 PM
How do you shoulder a pistol without a stock? I have a KELTEC AR pistol and can't picture what's being discussed.
Lilguy, you really can't.
Yes, you can shoulder a pistol with the SB15 arm brace just fine. It works just like a normal stock except that it's rubber and it's not easily adjustable.

Willie Sutton
June 1, 2014, 10:40 AM
I think we shold send "Thank You" letters to Sergeant Joe. Hundreds of them.

If he was trying to build a case against someone it'll chafe him, and he deserves it.

If he is one of the good guys, using his position to get an answer from BATFE, he deserves our thanks.


In either case it would be good Karma to send him a note of appreciation.


Willie

.

jerkface11
June 1, 2014, 01:55 PM
At what point is it not a stock anymore?

dogtown tom
June 1, 2014, 04:30 PM
jerkface11 At what point is it not a stock anymore?
At the point when ATF gives you a determination letter that says it's not a shoulder stock.;)

jerkface11
June 1, 2014, 05:05 PM
Didn't they recently get in trouble for being arbitrary ?

Elkins45
June 1, 2014, 06:48 PM
If he was trying to build a case against someone it'll chafe him, and he deserves it.

If he is one of the good guys, using his position to get an answer from BATFE, he deserves our thanks.

My guess is that if he were trying to build a case against someone this letter would never have seen the light of day.

HexHead
June 1, 2014, 06:57 PM
Unless you can't live without a vertical grip the SB-15 really works well, looks kind of funky but who really cares! Its a nice "loophole".

You can however use an angle grip.

Theohazard
June 1, 2014, 08:50 PM
Didn't they recently get in trouble for being arbitrary ?
Can you clarify this? I have no idea what this is referring to.

Jim K
June 1, 2014, 11:49 PM
Well, folks, that letter applies ONLY to that particular firearm and to that particular device. It does not say that any and all shoulder stocked pistols are exempt from the NFA, or that folks can hacksaw rifle barrels down to six inches.

I guess I could brace a 1911 on my shoulder without making it a short barrel rifle, but I find it hard to figure out how I could aim it.

Jim

Theohazard
June 2, 2014, 12:02 AM
Well, folks, that letter applies ONLY to that particular firearm and to that particular device. It does not say that any and all shoulder stocked pistols are exempt from the NFA, or that folks can hacksaw rifle barrels down to six inches.
I don't see anyone arguing that. All I see is the ATF saying that if something is already officially designated as a pistol, it's not illegal to fire it from the shoulder. Though it doesn't just apply to AR-15 pistols: The letter clearly states that pistols in general apply to this letter.

rodinal220
June 5, 2014, 11:17 AM
It always was. I am still amazed(not really) how people argued over this. BATFE said the SIG SB-15 "brace" was not a shoulder stock. If its not a stock and its on a pistol lower,its NOT an SBR,end of story.

Theohazard
June 5, 2014, 02:53 PM
If its not a stock and its on a pistol lower,its NOT an SBR,end of story.
True, but most people's argument wasn't that the arm brace made it an SBR; their argument was that it was illegal to shoulder it like an SBR. Which was a completely ridiculous argument even before the ATF issued that letter.

Arizona_Mike
June 5, 2014, 03:42 PM
Agreed it is an absurd argument. However it seems to be a common misunderstanding. We are seeing the same arguments play out with respect to ghost loading and waterfowl hunting.

Mike

jerkface11
June 6, 2014, 09:13 PM
But where is the line where it stops being a stock?

Theohazard
June 6, 2014, 10:13 PM
But where is the line where it stops being a stock?
It never stopped being a stock because it was never a stock to begin with. And dogtown tom already answered this question the last time you posted it: It's not a stock because the designers intended it as an arm-brace for one-handed use on a pistol, and the ATF agreed with that and issued a letter stating it officially isn't a stock.

jerkface11
June 7, 2014, 12:19 AM
If there isn't a list of features that differentiate between a stock and a brace then the ATF is just making up arbitrary rules again.

Theohazard
June 7, 2014, 04:30 AM
If there isn't a list of features that differentiate between a stock and a brace then the ATF is just making up arbitrary rules again.
No, there's a feature that helps differentiate between the two: A stock is designed to enable the firearm to be fired from the shoulder, and an arm brace is not. Of course, in real life the ATF has to make a judgment call to determine what's designed to fire from the shoulder and what isn't, but the ATF has already clearly stated that the SIG arm brace is officially an arm brace and not a stock.

jerkface11
June 7, 2014, 09:19 AM
I'm not arguing that the sig brace is a stock. I'm asking where the exact dividing line is. I'm not sure why that seems to bother you.

Theohazard
June 7, 2014, 01:42 PM
I'm not arguing that the sig brace is a stock. I'm asking where the exact dividing line is. I'm not sure why that seems to bother you.
Who says it's bothering me? In my previous post I simply told you where the dividing line is.

wally
June 7, 2014, 02:07 PM
Originally Posted by jerkface11
If there isn't a list of features that differentiate between a stock and a brace then the ATF is just making up arbitrary rules again.

I'm not arguing that the sig brace is a stock. I'm asking where the exact dividing line is.

The dividing line is exactly where the BATFE examiners say it is. Like it or not, its the way it is. They declared it an arm brace and not a stock, therefore its an arm brace, not a stock. End of debate.

Come up with a new design send it to the BATFE and find out which side of the line your design falls. Arbitrary, probably.

justice06rr
June 9, 2014, 11:25 PM
I'm not arguing that the sig brace is a stock. I'm asking where the exact dividing line is.

The design of the product is what will most likely dictate it.

Can a wrench be used as a hammer? Sure, but not an effective one. Same goes for the brace. Its just not adjustable and solid as a standard stock, because it wasn't designed to be.

Arizona_Mike
June 10, 2014, 12:18 PM
The design of the product is what will most likely dictate it.

Can a wrench be used as a hammer? Sure, but not an effective one. Same goes for the brace. Its just not adjustable and solid as a standard stock, because it wasn't designed to be.
I'm curious if you have used one because it is pretty darned effective as a stock.

Mike

dogtown tom
June 10, 2014, 01:32 PM
Arizona_Mike Quote:
Originally Posted by justice06rr View Post
The design of the product is what will most likely dictate it.

Can a wrench be used as a hammer? Sure, but not an effective one. Same goes for the brace. Its just not adjustable and solid as a standard stock, because it wasn't designed to be.

I'm curious if you have used one because it is pretty darned effective as a stock.
I have, and justice06rr is correct......the Sig brace is not anything close to being a solid shoulder stock.
Too many shortcomings for me to buy one.


Sig brace @ $150
vs
SBR stamp @ $200

To me its a no brainer to go the SBR route and use a real shoulder stock.

wally
June 10, 2014, 03:25 PM
Sig brace @ $150
vs
SBR stamp @ $200

To me its a no brainer to go the SBR route and use a real shoulder stock.

Me too, but I was thrilled to have and use the SB-15 while waiting for the stamp! The cost of the SB-15 was pretty minor compared to the cost of the ammo I shot up in the many months of waiting.

Its effective enough I doubt I'll be sending in for any more SBR stamps, it will provide a home for another SBR upper and its not hard to swap uppers among my SBR lowers, now that I have multiples. On a .22lr or 9mm AR pistol the limitations of the SB-15 are minimal, IMHO. I've let a fair number of people shoot my 7.5" 9mm SBR side by side with my 5.5" 9mm pistol with SB-15 while waiting for its stamp and most said "got to get me one of them" when they learned there was no NFA hassles involved with the SB-15.


Also, not all locations can have SBRs although I suspect the intersection of can't have SBR but can have AR pistol is pretty small :)

Arizona_Mike
June 10, 2014, 05:03 PM
I didn't spend anything close to $150 for my SB-15 (more like $90) and it came in really handy during the 11-month wait for my SBR stamp!

Mike

If you enjoyed reading about "Now it is official: shouldering a pistol does not make it an SBR" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!