Pt-145


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George Hill
December 27, 2002, 09:44 PM
Just got the latest SWAT mag.
Great magazine, BTW.

In it is a review for the PT-145. Makes it sound like it's not a bad choice for CCW.

Had Denny fired a couple more boxes of ammo through it, he would have had a much different conclusion.

I just want to remind members of TFL and the new members of THR... before you buy one of these Taurus Millenium series:
Read the whole website over at www.pt145.com
These guns are total junk. Many owners are finding structural failures in the guns after only 600 rounds.
These failures have not lead to any injuries as of yet... luckily.
Search TFL's autopistol section for more user comments and stories about these little guns.

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denfoote
December 27, 2002, 11:47 PM
Many owners are finding structural failures in the guns after only 600 rounds.

That would be me!!! :mad:

blades67
December 27, 2002, 11:58 PM
I thought Taurus had sorted out those problems with the polymer cracking over the steel insert.:confused:

Lennyjoe
December 28, 2002, 06:05 AM
Couple of fellas over at TFL got the newer and improved version of PT-145 and havent had problems.........YET.

That still remains to be seen but for now Im still shying away from it. Think Im gonna go with the Kimber Ultra Ten II.

George Hill
December 29, 2002, 12:08 AM
The new and improved version?

There is no new and improved version.

Kevinch
December 29, 2002, 12:24 AM
The new and improved version?

There is no new and improved version.

Apparently, Taurus has acknowledged that there was a problem with some guns.
Do a search on TFL George, & look for recent posts. You'll find some info there.

Oh nevermind - HERE (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=145616) is the link.

I hope they have it fixed - wouldn't mind one myself.

Blackhawk
December 29, 2002, 12:30 AM
There is no new and improved version.But there is a fixed and updated version of the part that was failing. Find a PT-145 made after September 2001 that failed due to the frame cracking then I'll shut up about it. Otherwise.... :D

Forseti
December 29, 2002, 01:36 AM
Taurus customer service said they did have a problem, and fixed it. Told me that over the phone. Woman on the phone seemed very honest, recognizing they did have a lot of frames to fix from 2001/early 2002, and did make some changes to the design. I don't have an example of one of the earlier P-145's to compare it to my "late model" PT-145, however, to see what changes were made.

When I read the large number of posts on frame cracking, it made me think along the following lines...Taurus has a lifetime warranty on their guns. If a systemic problem arises with a particular manufacturing line, they have two choices...discontinue the weapon, or change the design. Otherwise, they are manufacturing a continuing liability and cost. You just can't stay in business with that model. Easier and cheaper to fix the problem for the long haul. The PT-145 is still being produced, so I doubted they would create a geometrically increasing problem.

So, the next step is to see if the problem has been fixed, and get some indication that is the case. So I called, and got that indication. Instead of just reading posts, always ask the source, if possible. Another reason I called was to "test" the customer service department...would I get the royal brush off, rudeness, or an uncooperative attitude...or would I get a friendly, helpful person that seemed to be honestly answering my questions...an indication of a good company. Of course, I got the positive response, which also influenced my purchase.

I also read the www.pt145.com website. There is some info on problems with other Millenium pistols as well, the PT-111 and PT-140. While they look similar to the PT-145, the lowers (and uppers, of course) are quite different, so I don't think they should be lumped together. The rivet cracking issue, for example mentioned should not be lumped in with the PT-145. For the safety lever issue mentioned on the website...my safety lever really wants to be either on or off, and snaps to either position very nicely. I tried that one out before buying as well. It would take deliberate, careful and slow manipulation to get the safety lever to stay in a middle position on my gun. And it really doesn't want to stay in that position...the mechanism really wants it to snap to either "on" or "off". Try it and you will see what I mean....at least on the high serial number guns. If the safety is "partially" off (meaning you try deliberately to put it in a halfway position), and you try to fire the gun, it WILL fire the weapon. That might shear off the safety lever if it does, as the slide will move across it at high velocity. I thought about this, and the fact is that if I take the safety off (and for some strange reason, it doesn't go down all the way, which would be very hard to accomplish), and pull the trigger, I STILL WANT that gun to fire...it could be an emergency situation...I AM pulling the trigger, after all...not something that is easy to do by accident on this particular pistol. I couldn't understand why the person who posted to the www.pt145.com site said they lost all confidence in the gun...when you take the safety off, you want it to "go" when you pull that trigger.

In the meantime, the bad press on the gun kept the price *really* low. So, benefit to me...

Also, there is nothing quite like the size, weight, cost, safety, and ammo capacity of this particular .45.

Finally, there is still the lifetime warranty...so, as long as Taurus is in business, I am covered...

In addition, the failures mentioned did not stop the gun from firing...so, even if the gun is used in an emergency situation, I am as confident as you can be with any fairly simple reliable semiauto handgun that it will work. And the firing mechanism is VERY simple.

At this point, I admit I only have about 200-250 rounds through it. But so far, I am very pleased with my purchase.

The light weight also makes me more likely to carry it...always a good thing, since a gun left at home is pretty useless if you are not there as well.

I posted my info to this and at TFL so others could weigh my experience against others, and make their own decisions. All guns have their pluses and minuses. My experience so far has been very positive. If that changes, I will post it as well.

Blackhawk
December 29, 2002, 03:33 AM
Forseti, thanks for posting this. I hadn't read your follow-up on TFL.

It chaps me a bit when new posts show up about an old problem that's been fixed as though it hadn't been fixed. Even though it took Taurus a long time to admit it had a problem with PT-145s, it did fix them.

I've got gripes about several "high end" pistols that use MIM parts, but if the maker fixes them, I don't have a valid gripe anymore. That's like griping about GM's hydramatic transmissions or Ford's Ford-o-matics.

chaim
December 29, 2002, 04:42 AM
Keep up the updates Forseti, I'm looking forward to hearing your experiences as you get more rounds through it. I've liked that gun since I first saw it and was very close to buying one. Then I saw all the posts about the cracked frames and other structural problems in the other PT1XX guns (mainly the pins in the PT111). I still think it is a great idea if they can get the execution right and I really do want to get one. However, I don't really have the money to be a guinea pig. I've heard more positive than negative lately from owners of the later guns, but so many people heard the problems that it doesn't seem many people are buying them so it will probably take quite some time for a positive buzz to get out.

Keep us updated. As soon as I am convinced (I'm getting close) that it is worth the gamble I'm buying one.

Humble Texan
December 29, 2002, 10:28 AM
Moderator George Hill wrote:
These guns are total junk

Just registered to join in but am surprised a Moderator would call a weapon line "total junk". Haven't seen that before.

Got 1800 rounds through mine. The grip did indeed crack but the gun keep on running. When I say cracked, I mean 1/4" in the polymer grip, after shooting +p.

Did the 1992 non-recall of Glock make the weapon line total junk? How about current phase three problems or the 40 cal kBs or the early magazine problems or broken rails?

How about 1911 constantly having to work through issues?

My point is ALL manufacturers, and I mean everyone of them, have had problems with weapon lines.

I carry the PT145 because it is concealable, high capacity in .45 and after 1,80o rounds, dependable.

Thanks for the opportunity to offer some balance.

wild billz
December 29, 2002, 11:03 AM
i agree, though i don't own one, i was seriously considering one, especially if the manufacture has corrected the problem. I was also going to cite the recent Glock issues, but Humble Texan beat me to it.

i'm adding it to my list and will look for a deal at the next gunshow (next weekend for Orlando). if i find one with a late month manufacture, stainless steel slide, and for the right price it may come home with me.

chaim
December 29, 2002, 01:12 PM
It isn't just the Glock recall (actually, isn't it recalls now). It seems many quality manufacturers have had problems with their initial run (and sometimes later runs) of polymer pistols.

Ruger has a great reliability and durability reputation. The P95 (the polymer 9mm) seems to be up to the reputation of the alloy guns. The P97 (.45acp), especially the early ones, has seen a lot of negative internet buzz, especially sad since the alloy .45acp P90 may be their best gun.

Kahr, a maker of some great small guns, has had a lot (tons) of negative publicity on their polymer line.

I'm sure there are many more but this is a good start.

I won't disregard the Taurus because its buzz was so loud, I'll just wait for a few more positive reports first (I'll probably give either the PT 145 or PT 111 a try around summer). And they do offer a lifetime waranty so any problems you do have will get fixed (even on the early guns most of the few people who kept them found that the fix did it) so they do back their product- you won't be left with a broken paper weight.

For anyone who takes the problems with the early Taurus polymer pistols and generalizes that all Taurus must be POC, well- you're missing out. Their revolvers and alloy guns are some really good pistols. No one took (well, few took) the problems Kahr, Glock or Ruger had and said all Kahrs, Glocks or Rugers are crap (and hey, all Glocks are polymer).

reload
December 29, 2002, 01:19 PM
Thank you for the alert! These Milleniums are total crap! My wife wanted a 111 for conceal after less than a 1,000 rounds the trigger assy. broke. Taurus fixed it no prob. Thought it was cute so I bought me a 140. Less than a 1,000 rds 2 plastics roll pins broke and dropped out during an IDPA match. You can only imagine my embaressment!

I boxed them up and they'll be for sale "cheap" at the next gun show.

O - The wife is back to the 92af and I'm happy and proud to be sporting my new Ultra TenII, hell of a gun

Humble Texan
December 29, 2002, 02:06 PM
Reload said:

"These Milleniums are total crap!"

Wow! I must really be stupid to carry a "total crap" weapon. Wish I had checked with you first!

Just a little fun.

Glad you are happy with your Ultra Ten II, but you have proved my point.

Go to www.1911forum.com and do a search on Ultra Ten II and look at the comments. "Jam-o-matic" is just one word that is thrown about. "overpriced paperweights". Would hate to see you experience constant jamming problems at your next IDPA match with that expensive a weapon. More unhappy people over there with their UTIIs as happy ones.

You see, all the nashing of teeth over the millenium line comes to nothing when my PT145 operates effectively for me. Heck, my USP45f broke.

If your UTII proves reliable, I feel you made a good decision, just as I have with my PT145 for under $500.

Good shooting.

Sparker
December 29, 2002, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by reload
Less than a 1,000 rds 2 plastics roll pins broke and dropped out during an IDPA match.


Toys are made of plastic, guns are made from steel. I know your Daddy told you that when he gave you your first Winchester.

chaim
December 29, 2002, 02:30 PM
Texan, how many rounds do you have? Please keep us posted (see my 1st post above). As some of the newer guns age and still keep going and as I hear more good reports I am getting closer to finally getting one myself (at this rate it will probably sometime this coming summer).

George Hill
December 29, 2002, 02:36 PM
Well, as they say, one man's steaming pile is another man's bowl of cherries.

To me, yeah, they are junk. I don't know about other fellows, but I don't like the idea of my frame craking. Even if it is a little crack. I guess it's too much to ask for a gun to just not frickin BREAK.

If Taurus fixed the issue, then that's fine. Get one if you like. I'm sure Ford fixed the Explosive Tail End issue in the Pinto, but that's not comforting enough for me to have bought one after that.

Just because I am a Moderator doesn't mean I have to check my personal opinions at the door. I think they are junk. If Taurus want's to sell me one, they will have to give me a kiss first. I used to love these things. I think the form factor in design is outstanding. Until my friend got one and after a few hundred rounds it cracked... and then other TFL'rs started popping up with similar issues. What about that .40 cal version that has the frame pins sheer off. Had another round been fired - someone could have been seriously hurt or worse.
Life is too short to deal with a POS. It's supposed to be a life saving tool - not a life risking liability. Sorry - structural failures are just plain unacceptable.

tomkatz
December 29, 2002, 02:46 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Humble Texan

[Go to www.1911forum.com and do a search on Ultra Ten II and look at the comments. "Jam-o-matic" is just one word that is thrown about. "overpriced paperweights". Would hate to see you experience constant jamming problems at your next IDPA match with that expensive a weapon. More unhappy people over there with their UTIIs as happy ones.]






......my ultra ten has been totally reliable, no problems even while breaking it in. I told that to the folks at 1911 forum and they ignored me, oh well. The gunsmith at a very busy shop here says he has had only one come back, he tweaked the extractor and it worked fine, much like some other kimbers he has seen...tom

Forseti
December 29, 2002, 04:46 PM
I've yet to read about a "total structural failure" on a PT-145...(NOT the other PT's, I am talking about the -145) ...we are talking about some plastic cracking, NOT the slide or the insert in the plastic the slide moves across (which is metal as well) cracking. That's why, when you hear about plastic cracking, the gun can continue to fire.

I've also not heard of the plastic pins in a PT-145 breaking...only on the PT-111 or PT-140, which is different in design, though similar in appearence. If there is anybody out there who had the pins break on a PT145, let us know...

I've read the posts and seen the pics on www.pt145.com of the broken plastic corners in the lower receiver on the gun with serial number NUE50129 (2001 May manufacture, by the serial number). Those breaks, while unsightly, would not stop the gun from firing. The pics above that, of broken pins, do not apply to the PT145.

Finally, I have also not heard of serious user injury occuring with a Millenium pistol user (other than the "stinging" mentioned on www.pt145.com, if you count that as an injury, on a PT-111, not a PT-145). Again, if someone has actual first hand knowledge of such a thing, please post it, along with the results of the lawsuit you undoubtably pursued against Taurus....anybody out there with such an experience?

Lexter
December 29, 2002, 06:03 PM
Hope all you PT-145 Owners have better results/service from Taurus than I did. Took them over a month to mail me the slide release pin for the PT-140 that sheered off. They recorded the wrong stinkin' part number when I called them. They were nasty when I called after 3 weeks to check the part's order status.

I vote with my wallet! Had many FTE problems too.

Lexter in NC

Blackhawk
December 29, 2002, 06:40 PM
Had many FTE problems too. Extract or eject, Lexter?

Kevinch
December 29, 2002, 08:53 PM
Well, the PT-145 issues must have pushed a few buttons - definetly one of George's - & I for one have no problem with expressing opinion.

But - anyone who isn't simply being emotional would have to admit that if Taurus eliminated the problem, the gun can stand on its own merit. Even George said: I used to love these things. I think the form factor in design is outstanding.

George, I'd have to come to the conclusion then that if Taurus has in fact corrected the problem you'd like the gun?

George Hill
December 29, 2002, 09:19 PM
Perhaps they did fix it... with a design change that let you know for certain that it was indeed fixed...
Then...

Maybe.

Still wish they would break out the Titanium .45 version - if that could handle actual shooting... then maybe I would buy one. Maybe.

Forseti
December 29, 2002, 10:29 PM
I asked about that Ti version of the PT-145...they said they were not going to make it. Since there was clearly demand for it prior to manufacture, I assume that means they could not work out the bugs...Since it would be the slide they would have made out of titanium, I imagine they had some breakage. That is just a guess on my part, no "hard" info.

George Hill
December 29, 2002, 10:54 PM
No, that's a good guess.
Look at it logically. The guns are breaking due to slide hammering the inner steel subframe.
Now take a heavier recoiling round like the .45 and put it in a gun with a very light slide weight which gives it higher slide velocities... Very hard to get past that hammering effect.

I suspect that a moderately skilled gunsmith could remedy that whole situation with a little work.

Blackhawk
December 29, 2002, 11:46 PM
The slide hammering potential problem of the PT-145-TI is easily eliminated with the recoil spring selection, but the fact remains that all the recoil force has to be absorbed by the shooter without the benefit of more gun mass to dampen it.

What's not attractive to Taurus is a 17 ounce .45 in the hands of tentative shooters and all the returns of perfectly good guns for "repair" that can be expected.

That's what happened to Kel Tec with their P-40, so they discontinued the product, and things have been going great for KT.

I'm sorry to hear Taurus won't be making the titanium version. I really wanted one of those!

emann
December 30, 2002, 12:27 AM
Taurus had a great opportunity here and really blew I'm afraid. Ashame because the Milleniums are among the nicest looking little guns out there.

Brad Johnson
December 30, 2002, 03:12 PM
I have 1500+ rounds through my PT111 with no problems. Of course, I keep the gun clean and lubricated. I also do not, under any circumstances, use reloads in the gun (mine or anyone elses).

I have two friends with PT145's that both had the grip assembly crack at around 600 rounds. In both cases the grip assemblies were replaced under warranty by Taurus. Both continue to function with no problems after more than 2000 rounds each.

Did Taurus take a long time to get the guns back? Yes - almost 8 weeks in both instances. However, they were up front about it taking that long, and were always cordial and understanding when called.

I don't understand why everyone gets so bent out of shape at it taking a little longer to get your gun repaired at no charge for the life of the gun! Yes, some other manufacturers turn things around faster. So what. At least Taurus is up front about telling you how long it will take. If you don't like the time frame, take it to a gunsmith and pay for the convenience of having it back in a couple of days. Otherwise, send it in for your free repair and quit whining.

Someone mention using their PT for IDPA. No way?! I'll be the first to admit that the PT is a TERRIBLE IDPA gun. The short barrel, light weight, and long, heavy trigger pull are not competition friendly. Use a PT in competition and you WILL get soundly trounced by guys with a more "conventional" gun.

As it has been noted several times above, the PT145 is a TOTALLY DIFFERENT GUN than the 111/138/140 pistols. The design is similar, but it has been scaled up to meet the demans of the .45 ACP round. There are ZERO interchangeable parts between the 145 and any other PT series gun.

I find that most people who proclaim that any gun is "total junk" have A) Never fired one B) Only shoot a couple of times a years, and/or C) Are "one gun" shooters who think that anything other than their brand or model is not worth having.

It's interesting to not that some shooters pick up the PT expecting it to have a glassy-smooth 2lb trigger and print 1" groups at 50 yards. Ain't gonna happen, so get over it. The PT111 has a long, heavy, gritty trigger pull and might keep all shots in an 8" circle at 25 yards (on a very, very good day).

The design of the PT makes it unforgiving of poor shooting skills. When I want to humble a local "hot shot" shooter who thinks he or she can do no wrong I just move the target out around 7 yards and hand them my PT. After they put 10 shots low, left, and splattered all over the place, I step up and put the same number of rounds right in the 10-ring. All it takes is practice and a knowledge that you can't jerk around a PT like you can a 1911 or a tricked-out Glock (and I own both, so I can make a valid comparison).

I'll shut up now. :D

Brad

wild billz
December 30, 2002, 05:35 PM
I called taurus this morning at 830 EST
Ok, since I'm interested in this pistol I called Taurus this morning and asked about the PT-145.

The customer service rep was very nice, proffessional and immediately acknowledged there had been problems with the polymer in the frames. It had been corrected, they will be making the pistol next year. If I had a pistol with the frame cracks they would pick it up from me and pay all shipping, replace the frame and return it to me- at noo cost to me.

i think that answere the questions. They acknowledged fault, they fixed fault, they will continue production, they will pick up & replace frame and return at no cost.

Sadly she couldn't give me a month of manufacture for where the error was fixed. I would suggest anyone who buys one follwe Forseti's advice and look for a high serial number or wait until more positive comments are made.

I also asked about pin shearing with the PT-111 and she didn't know anything about that, and had no record of it. that's another can of worms.

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