How does this happen?


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bainter1212
April 23, 2014, 12:51 AM
I have been loading .45acp lately and I got a few of these while seating the bullets....

197617

I thought that maybe I wasn't getting the cases centered in the shell holder, but when I started paying extra attention to that I still got a few that did it. I noticed if I slowed down it happened a lot less but the issue was still present....are the bullets crooked on the case mouth during the stroke?

Did I not bell my cases enough?

The seating is noticeably stiffer when this occured.

I am using Lee dies on an RCBS Jr press.
Bullets are Berrys 185gr HBRN plated. They measure .452 in diameter.
Seated to an OAL of 1.270

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HisStigness
April 23, 2014, 12:54 AM
Do you have a dead length seating die? I once tried to set up my 30-06 standard seating die like a dead length seating die and something similar happened.

grubbylabs
April 23, 2014, 01:39 AM
I would try to flare just a little bit more and see what happens

ArchAngelCD
April 23, 2014, 01:59 AM
Sometimes when you have the crimp part of the die set incorrectly you crimp before you complete the bullet seating and that will buckle the case like you see in the picture you provided.

bainter1212
April 23, 2014, 09:40 AM
Sometimes when you have the crimp part of the die set incorrectly you crimp before you complete the bullet seating and that will buckle the case like you see in the picture you provided.

Hmmm.....I set the crimp at .471. It seems to crimp nicely.
Would I have it set with too much crimp in this instance?
I will try dialing it back a hair.....

kcofohio
April 23, 2014, 10:48 AM
Are you crimping with a FCD or the seating die?
Mixed or sorted casings? If mixed, I have found wall thickness difference will cause a buckling effect.

quaid
April 23, 2014, 10:54 AM
I had some lead bullets do something similar. They wouldn't chamber as a result. Rather then pull them I sent then through lee's factory crimp die which squished them down and I shot them rather then pull. Laser cast bullets are HARD. It's the one ttime the fcd ever made sense to me.

Edit- never mind- I missed the wall buckling. My problem was bullets not seated perfectly bulging the case wall.

gamestalker
April 23, 2014, 11:20 AM
If your brass isn't all the same trimmed length, and then you inadvertently adjust the crimp with a shorter case, it will do as AA described.

It doesn't have anything to do with how much you belled the mouths. If that was the cause, you would have shaving, and the mouths would likely be crushed also.

GS

grubbylabs
April 23, 2014, 11:25 AM
Hmmm.....I set the crimp at .471. It seems to crimp nicely.
Would I have it set with too much crimp in this instance?
I will try dialing it back a hair.....

I think what he was hinting at is your timing is off, you might be trying to crimp before the bullet is finished seating.

I might be off on that, but that's what I initially got from what was said. And it does make sense.

If that is the problem, and you don't mind adding an additional die, look into the Lee factory crimp die.

UziLand
April 23, 2014, 12:13 PM
I've had that happen on 38's. The demon turned out to be over crimping. Same type of thing with 223's. The shoulder would slightly buldge causing feed problems.

UL

tyeo098
April 23, 2014, 12:24 PM
Seat and crimp in 2 separate steps, see if that gets rid of the problem.

bainter1212
April 23, 2014, 01:06 PM
Thanks for all the tips guys. Now I have some more work to do.....

BTW, I am using mixed untrimmed brass. I may well have set my crimp on a short case.

grubbylabs
April 23, 2014, 01:33 PM
I load 1000's of 45 and I don't trim my brass. Its all mixed from different sheriff ranges.

Mad Chemist
April 23, 2014, 01:47 PM
From the pic it almost looks like you have a roll crimp on these. I think you need to back way off the crimp. You don't need that much crimp on standard autoloading cartridges.

What kind of crimp die are you using?

bainter1212
April 23, 2014, 02:09 PM
I am using the Lee seating die to crimp. Supposed to do it all in one step......although the instructions for setting the crimp are almost nonexistent. A lot of trial and error.

I began my load workup with no crimp at all and the edge of the case mouth sometimes would catch on the edge of the feed ramp. I would have to smack the back of the slide to feed the round.

I set my crimp like this.......

I took a cartridge that already had a bullet seated to the proper OAL and I inched the die down into the press, measuring the case mouth each time until I had my .471 crimp. Then I locked down the die and turned the seating adjustment down until it touched the top of the bullet.

It sure would be nice if Lee had saw fit to include some good instructions. I may just want to pick up the Lee FCD die.

kcofohio
April 23, 2014, 02:29 PM
Bainter, the wall thickness may vary. Example, reloading some 380 autos once with same type seating die you're using and had some buckled cases. Found that the cases were up to .004" thicker on wall thickness than all the others. I was using mixed casings. Just something to check.

Potatohead
April 23, 2014, 02:50 PM
It sure would be nice if Lee had saw fit to include some good instructions. I may just want to pick up the Lee FCD die

I'd pick up some rcbs dies, actually.

But Lees instructions do suck.

bainter1212
April 23, 2014, 03:11 PM
Bainter, the wall thickness may vary. Example, reloading some 380 autos once with same type seating die you're using and had some buckled cases. Found that the cases were up to .004" thicker on wall thickness than all the others. I was using mixed casings. Just something to check.

I will check that. It would certainly explain the issue.

Does anybody use lube in a crimping die? Would it hurt to splash some Hornady One Shot up in there?

Jesse Heywood
April 23, 2014, 03:36 PM
You shouldn't need to lube for crimping. Any lube applied will have to be squeezed out.

When I crimp for semi-auto I only use a taper and crimp just enough to remove the bell and lightly taper the brass. I measure the crimp to confirm the slight taper.

Walkalong is an expert on crimping. He has a lengthy thread.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=469815

Mad Chemist
April 23, 2014, 03:53 PM
You should only need to crimp just enough to reduce the bell. Do you have a factory cartridge to compare to? Can you post a pic close up pic of the round so that I can see more detail on the crimp?

mtrmn
April 23, 2014, 05:02 PM
Only crimp in a seperate operation and only use a taper crimp die for semiauto ammo.

splattergun
April 23, 2014, 08:14 PM
I find it better to crimp as a separate operation when using mixed brass. Also check the die adjustment.
http://leeprecision.net/support/index.php?/Knowledgebase/Article/View/33/14/crushed-cases

Mad Chemist
April 23, 2014, 08:28 PM
No reason to separate the crimp step for pistol ammo. MANY of us do these in the same step.

Bovice
April 23, 2014, 08:36 PM
WELL WELL WELL. WHADDAYA KNOW!

The FCD has a use after all!

243winxb
April 23, 2014, 08:53 PM
Knowledgebase

Bullet Seating Adjustment
Posted by on 20 October 2011 07:02 AM
The trick is to set the bullet seating depth first, then the crimp. This is done as follows; With an empty, sized case in the shell holder, hold the ram at the top of its stroke. Turn the bullet seating die body down over the case until you feel it come to a stop. This will be when the case mouth contacts the crimp shoulder inside the die. Mark this position by turning the lock ring down against the turret or press frame. Now adjust your bullet seating depth. Once you have the bullet seated to the desired depth, back the bullet seater adjuster out about 1 turn. Now turn the bullet seating die body in to apply the desired crimp. Once this is established, hold the ram at the top of its stroke and spin the bullet seater adjuster down until it stops.

It is a good idea to carry this out with an empty case, so that after you have seated the bullet, you have a perfectly safe "dummy" cartridge (or gauge) to repetitively set seating depth and crimp on future occasions.

Once you have this "dummy" gauge, all you have to do is place it in the shell holder, raise the ram to the top of its stroke, turn the bullet seating body down until it stops, and then turn the bullet seating depth adjuster in until it stops. Since the crimp and the seating depth were already set, the die will return to very close to the same settings.

Pistol Bullet Seating Die Adjustment

http://leeprecision.net/support/index.php?/Knowledgebase/Article/View/144/0/bullet-seating-adjustment See Video at link.

Mad Chemist
April 23, 2014, 09:15 PM
I have 3 FCD dies. I do not use them. I suppose I might if my turret suddenly grows a new hole. But until that happens they'll stay in the box.

I have dummy rds that I used to use before I bought spare turrets. Now I just keep the calibers that I load most often on their own turrets. This saves quite a bit of time.

jcwit
April 23, 2014, 09:31 PM
Only crimp in a seperate operation and only use a taper crimp die for semiauto ammo.

WHY?

Been doing both the seating & crimping at the same time for years.

bainter1212
April 24, 2014, 12:07 AM
Just got done loading up 50 more rounds. I had to play with the seating die to get the crimp just right but no more crumpled cases. Learned tonight that it takes only a very small adjustment on that die to make the crimp too aggressive.

Thanks again folks.

ArchAngelCD
April 24, 2014, 12:34 AM
Just got done loading up 50 more rounds. I had to play with the seating die to get the crimp just right but no more crumpled cases. Learned tonight that it takes only a very small adjustment on that die to make the crimp too aggressive.

Thanks again folks.
In reality it's not the crimp itself (you mentioned .471"), it's the fact the crimp is being applied before the bullet is completely seated so that as you continue to seat the bullet it can no longer move into the case because of the crimp so it buckles the case.

It must be because you are using different brass because the procedure you explained on how you set the crimp/seating die is correct.

I'm glad you got the problem worked out...

dbarnhart
April 26, 2014, 11:42 AM
An over-enthusiastic crimp. You want to set the crimp portion of the die so that all it does is take out the expansion/belling of the case mouth that your expansion die put in.

What's happening is that the crimp is taking place before the bullet is fully seated. The seater pushes down in the bullet and creates that bulge in the base. (been there, done that.)

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