Slower powders and lever cartridges!


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andym79
May 9, 2014, 07:09 AM
Hi guys I like to shoot 165GN RNFP cast from my 30-30. I have had reasonable success with my 30-30 using fast rifle powders such as H4227, H4198 and H4895, but I do not like the fact that the cartridge is so empty!

Has anyone had success using nearer to full cases of slower powders like H4350 or H4831?

Also in the 38-55 for 245GN RNFP cast bullets, has anyone had success using nearer to full cases of powders like H4895 or H322?

Finally in the 375 Win for 245GN RNFP, cast bullets, has anyone had success using nearer to full cases of powders like H4895 or H322?

My lee reloading manual seems to suggest these might be good powders, so far I have only been using my Lyman manual for loads!

I have noted of the years however a trend toward ever slower powders for cast. None of the modern manuals seem to suggest red dot, green dot or unique for a lot of cast loads anymore!

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Airman Basic
May 9, 2014, 09:03 AM
I have several pounds of Hodgdon's old 4831 cannon fodder. I've used it for years dipping a casefull in 308, with a 180 grain RCBS cast boolit. Shoots accurately, no idea of velocity, but killed what I shot with it.

Elkins45
May 9, 2014, 01:14 PM
Have you spent any time on the Cast Boolets website? There's a lot of information there regarding using slow powders under cast bullets. I have done some experimentation using very slow (50 BMG) powders under cast in 308, but I have no experience with 30-30.

blarby
May 9, 2014, 03:21 PM
The problem you are going to run into is that the 30-30 was designed around a narrow operating band of smokeless powder for a jacketed projectile.

Nearly everything you use behind a cast, unchecked projectile is going to leave considerable case volume empty.

It never had any bad results when I was shooting it using one of the best powders you named for the application- H4895.

SlamFire1
May 9, 2014, 04:00 PM
I tested AA4350 with 170 jacketed bullets and it was much too slow. However, it might work with cast bullets.

Marlin 336 with 20" Microgroove barrel.

170 gr Hornady FBFP 33.5 grs AA4350 wtd lot 9-95 W/W cases CCI200 OAL 2.545"

10 Jan 2014 T = 52 F

Ave Vel = 1710
Std Dev = 21
ES = 40
High = 1726
Low = 1686
N = 3


170 gr Hornady FBFP 34.5 grs AA4350 wtd lot 9-95, very compressed, W/W cases CCI200 OAL 2.545"

10 Jan 2014 T = 52 F

Ave Vel = 1785
Std Dev = 26
ES = 47
High = 1815
Low = 1768
N = 3

Kernel
May 9, 2014, 08:19 PM
Why the concern for the partially filled case? 1) It doesn't matter. Only velocity, accuracy, function and cost matter. Meet those four and it's a good load. 2) less powder per load means more shots per pound of powder. Isn't that a good thing?

243winxb
May 9, 2014, 09:07 PM
Better site to ask the questions. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?8-Cast-Boolits They do experiment. Example- http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?72897-Testing-6-5-Swede-HV-loading-with-shotgun-filler With a lever action, i would stay with published data.

ArchAngelCD
May 9, 2014, 09:48 PM
Hi guys I like to shoot 165GN RNFP cast from my 30-30. I have had reasonable success with my 30-30 using fast rifle powders such as H4227, H4198 and H4895, but I do not like the fact that the cartridge is so empty!

Has anyone had success using nearer to full cases of slower powders like H4350 or H4831?

Also in the 38-55 for 245GN RNFP cast bullets, has anyone had success using nearer to full cases of powders like H4895 or H322?

Finally in the 375 Win for 245GN RNFP, cast bullets, has anyone had success using nearer to full cases of powders like H4895 or H322?

My lee reloading manual seems to suggest these might be good powders, so far I have only been using my Lyman manual for loads!

I have noted of the years however a trend toward ever slower powders for cast. None of the modern manuals seem to suggest red dot, green dot or unique for a lot of cast loads anymore!
So much to address here. While 4227 & 4198 are fast reflecting powders 4895 is not.

Not all cartridges will be filled by smokeless powders and in the 30-30 slow powders like 4350 and especially 4831 are not suitable. That cartridge was developed long before this powders were thought of.

I can be wrong but I don't think Red Dot and Green Dot were ever good for cast bullet rifle loads. If you think there is only a little powder in the 30-30 case with 4198 the charge of Red Dot will look almost invisible to you.

I'm not trying to sound bad here but are you new to reloading? If so you might want to do some reading. If I'm wrong ignore what I just said.

andym79
May 9, 2014, 09:49 PM
Why the concern for the partially filled case? 1) It doesn't matter. Only velocity, accuracy, function and cost matter. Meet those four and it's a good load. 2) less powder per load means more shots per pound of powder. Isn't that a good thing?

Yes all of that is true, but I don't like dancing with the devils over hundreds of rounds that allow for the small possibility of a double charge!

I visually check each case before seating the bullets and randomly weigh loaded ammo, but I would prefer a load that is fool proof and faster in terms of reloading! That's why I love my trail boss for 50 yards!

Kernel
May 9, 2014, 10:34 PM
small possibility of a double charge!

Then a charge that does not fill the case at least half full fails your definition of "function".

andym79
May 9, 2014, 11:01 PM
I'm not trying to sound bad here but are you new to reloading?

Not some much new as paranoid! I have been sticking with H4227 and H4198 as they seems to work best of the powders I have tried. Now if they could make H4227 or H4198 bulky like trailboss I could stop asking these kind of questions!

Kernel
May 10, 2014, 12:49 AM
Can you get the ADI powders down under? They're some of the best made. Don't they make Trail Boss for IMR?

andym79
May 10, 2014, 07:17 AM
Yes ADI powders are excellent they make:
Trailboss
Clays
International
Universal
H4227
H4198
H322
Benchmark
8208
H4895
Varget
H4350
H4831
H1000
Retumbo
H50BMG

I not sure with year they start producing a lot of US powders.

That is why I said Hodgdon powders are available here, ADI make a lot of them!

Here the main powders I use are called Ar2205, Ar2207 and AR2206H.

andym79
May 10, 2014, 09:06 PM
A poster from another forum had this to say about using certain powders in the 30-30
"I hasten to add Andy, do not use H4350 or H4831 in the 30-30. DON'T!

They are too slow and their performance might be unpredictable and unsafe.

H322 is your best bet I reckon."

Is this true,m is H4350 really "unpredictable and unsafe" in the 30-30 or is that only the case if the load is less than 90% density?

Don McDowell
May 10, 2014, 11:34 PM
The slow powders such as 4350 and 4831 are not unsafe in the 30-30 but they are not very efficient.
See if you can get ahold of an old Cartrides of the World book. There will be IMR load data there that uses every powder they had.

ArchAngelCD
May 11, 2014, 02:01 AM
Andy, are Western Powders available in Australia? If they are you can use AA5744 from Accurate because it's extremely bulky and will do exactly what you want done in the 30-30. I use AA5744 in the 45-70 and it takes up a lot of that huge case.

The burn rate is similar to H4198 (AR2207) but it's very bulky.

andym79
May 11, 2014, 03:40 AM
Unfortunately that is a negative :cuss:

I wish there were more bulky powders slower than Trailboss oh well!

Boho
May 11, 2014, 04:02 AM
Not the best pic but it has H4831 data.

LeftyTSGC
May 11, 2014, 09:03 AM
I use Trailboss in my .45LC LeverAction for cowboy shooting.

The Hodgden online reloading data shows Trailboss for 30-30 Win 160gr LFN load. Yes it is not a strong load, but I know Trailboss is a large flake powder that really fills up the case volume. If you want target or light loads it may be the way to go.:)

LeftyTSGC

andym79
May 12, 2014, 04:33 AM
Well I thought I would run some numbers through the simulator Quickload. Without powder bias I preset some criteria:

1) A velocity range of 1600-1900fps respecting the limitations of the gas check projectiles' alloy and the RPM threshold!
2) A fill of a least 65%
3) A burn of at least 85%
4) Pressure to suit the alloy and obviously a safe margin for the cartridge type.

The list of suitable powders for the 30-30 was:

H4198
H322
Benchmark
H4895

(Bare in mind only H and Winchester powders are available to me, I have none of the later in my cupboard!)

Whilst the slower powders may have worked, they would likely fill my action with unburnt powder!

I have experimented with H4198 and H4895! H322 might be the sweet spot!

For the 375 and 38-55 only H4198 made the criteria! I am starting to think I just need to load it a little heavier, to exclude the possibility of a double charge!

ArchAngelCD
May 12, 2014, 05:00 AM
Well I thought I would run some numbers through the simulator Quickload. Without powder bias I preset some criteria:

1) A velocity range of 1600-1900fps respecting the limitations of the gas check projectiles' alloy and the RPM threshold!
2) A fill of a least 65%
3) A burn of at least 85%
4) Pressure to suit the alloy and obviously a safe margin for the cartridge type.

The list of suitable powders for the 30-30 was:

H4198
H322
Benchmark
H4895

(Bare in mind only H and Winchester powders are available to me, I have none of the later in my cupboard!)

Whilst the slower powders may have worked, they would likely fill my action with unburnt powder!

I have experimented with H4198 and H4895! H322 might be the sweet spot!

For the 375 and 38-55 only H4198 made the criteria! I am starting to think I just need to load it a little heavier, to exclude the possibility of a double charge!
I have been using H4895 (AR2206H) for the 30-30 with a 165gr plain base Cast bullet with a 18 BHN. Accuracy is very good and I get no leading in the barrel even without a gas check. I'm able to hit empty 12ga shotshell cases @50 yards with the aid of a 4X scope.

Winchester 30-30 case
CCI-200 Primer
165gr RNFP bullet (from Missouri Bullets)
21.0gr H4895
AV 1380 fps from a levergun w/20" barrel

My next tests were going to be 17.0gr H4198, 18.0gr H4198 and 9.0gr Trail Boss but I never did find the time to load and shoot them, I will soon though.

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