Anti-Moslem Backlash


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Gary H
April 6, 2004, 02:48 AM
Ever since 9/11 the media has been full of fundamentalist Islamacist justifying their brutality with their religious beliefs. Islam was forged through war and Moslems have been on one side, or the other in various modern wars . These facts are not lost upon the average American and so it seems to me that the American Moslem would want to publicly clarify these issues and dispel misunderstandings, but few voices have come forward to stand against those proponing violence. Is this my misperception, a failure to report, or is there some reluctance to make public stands against other Moslems, especially folks that prefer to eliminate their opposition? I have also listened to those that suggested that Saudi money in the United States has setup more Wahabi oriented clerics in American Mosques. Is this true?

This legal forum is ripe with religiously oriented discussions based upon current events, but Islam seems to be a religion greatly interested in stately powers and control over populations. In this sense, discussing Islam is more like discussing politics. What can be said of the American Moslem? Are they attending Wahabi oriented mosques? Do they also tend toward wanting an Islamic style republic? or is the American Moslem more oriented toward the more spiritual side of the teaching?

I would appreciate any personal, direct observations. The only one that I can make is that I have many pleasant patients of this faith and I have never had a sense of hatred toward myself. They have all seemed to be regular people with normal people successes and problems. Anyone of this faith wish to share answers to some of the above question? Thanks..

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Quick Draw McGraw
April 6, 2004, 03:11 AM
I think Marko posted a response to a similar question a while back citing a large number of articles in which various muslim groups denounced the 9/11 attacks...

I'll see if I can find it here...

Quick Draw McGraw
April 6, 2004, 03:14 AM
ahh:
Try this thread... (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15518&highlight=muslim+response+9%2F11)
It is one of Marko's posts...

Khornet
April 6, 2004, 08:12 AM
from Muslim figures, and some required real bravery.

That said, two questions:

Why don't I get the feeling that most Muslims abhor terrorism? If there are so many millions who don't agree, shouldn't their voices be louder? I'm not talking about some loyalty oath thing, I just think it would be more noticeable than it is.

Second, assuming the first point is (as I would hope) dead wrong, then why aren't our media folks bringing it to our attention?

c_yeager
April 6, 2004, 08:27 AM
If the vast majority of FOREIGN muslims were truly against terrorism guys like Bin Laden simply could not function openly in their midst. Furthermore they would CERTAINLY be unable to hide among their brethren. The sad fact is that it appears that at least a sizeable portion of the community is standing behind their terrorist 'friends'.

Iain
April 6, 2004, 08:30 AM
I can't answer either of those questions Khornet. You would think it would be more noticeable, but I have yet to meet a muslim who agrees with terrorism. An old friend of mine in an inner city university went looking for radical Islamic types, he found a few, the 'Britain will be an Islamic state' types and the 'look at the injustices of the West' types. They were a minority.

Sometimes I wonder if the majority of the muslim population in the West don't speak out against OBL and his like because they themselves see absolutely no link between him and themselves. Much like a modern day Catholic would see no link between himself and those who brought about the St Bartholomew's Day massacre. Just a thought.

There was a comment by pax on the thread linked to above that bears repeating over and over in the face of the 'Islam is a violent religion' types:

You know, I used to marvel at how the Holocaust got its start. Germany in the 1930's was a modern country, after all. How could they decide that an entire segment of their population was the source of all evil in the world?

Gary H
April 6, 2004, 10:55 AM
I suspect that most people prefer peace to violence. I doubt that most Moslems are any different, but my question really has two parts.

1. Why isn't this widely reported? I must admit that I don't watch the major networks and I refuse to read the local papers, but I do a good bit Internet reading.. and cable/satellite. The long list of URL's is encouraging (some of which I have read), but I think that there is still the public impression that U.S. Moslems are quiet on this topic.

2. Is there, or was there a Wahabi movement and money in the U.S. and does it continue? Do Wahabi control a large percentage of U.S. mosques, or is this just anti-Islam rhetoric?

I'm asking this because I value family, but keep few friends. I never discuss religion with friends, so I haven't any first hand information. My impression has been one of silence. I don't remember mass marches protesting the abduction of the faith. Frankly, I've heard much more about the evils of the right wing fundamentalist American Christians.

Zundfolge
April 6, 2004, 11:15 AM
a couple of interesting editorials have been posted on Townhall today about this very subject

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/dennisprager/dp20040406.shtml

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/joelmowbray/jm20040406.shtml

Sean Smith
April 6, 2004, 11:22 AM
Of course, some of those above-linked articles saying Islam doesn't condone terrorism were written in support of theories that the 9/11 attacks weren't performed by Islamic terrorists.

http://www.themodernreligion.com/terror/wtc-distortion.html

In part because of this conviction, the scholars — educated intellectuals who teach in Western institutions — remain unconvinced that Muslims, even radical militants, were behind the attacks.

Some of them even said that with the release of the letters by the Justice Department on Friday, it appeared that Muslims were being framed. The attack, they said, could have been the work of an American militia group, a religious cult like Aum Shinrikyo in Japan, or even the Israeli government.

Some of the articles were taken down later; the URLs are dead links now.

Some are only tangentally anti-terrorist, and fixated mainly on asserting some sort of victim status for themselves in the wake of the mass murder on 9/11.

The truth is that while the big pile of Islamic anti-terrorist links looks nice, it doesn't quite say what it seems to say. The picture of Islamic oppositon to terrorism just isn't that rosy. Conversely, the idea of Islam as a religion or "death cult" that is by its very nature terroristic only makes sense if you make a point to not know anything about it. Indeed, if anything Islam would be the hardest religion to reconcile with doing the 9/11 attack, since it quite plainly condemns killing civilians, suicide, and even the specific act of killing with fire.

Reality is, once again, annoyingly complicated.

Eskimo Jim
April 6, 2004, 11:25 AM
Gary,
I sure haven't heard many Islamic leaders denouncing the terroristic actions that some of their fellow worshippers engage in and encourage.

I don't know if that's because there aren't many doing the denouncing or if media outlets don't report it. Their silence is deafening.

I wish that more Islamic leaders would denounce terrorism, etc. It would make me feel better and help convince me that the majority of muslims are peace loving people.

It appears to me that whenever an Islamic leader makes the news it is because he is denouncing US actions and calling for more attacks against US troops, civilians, Israel etc.

-Jim

fix
April 6, 2004, 11:35 AM
Their silence is deafening.

Well they are in between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand, they have fellow Muslims who will attack them for taking the side of the infidels. An on the other hand, they have a rather large segment of our society that has been looking for a good excuse to persecute them for a while, but has slowly forgotten them and returned to their rightful place in front of the boob tube. Maybe being quiet is the safe thing to do.

longeyes
April 6, 2004, 11:36 AM
One might also ask why more Americans don't publicly decry creeping socialism and the progressive encroachment on our civil liberties? Is this from indifference, tacit support of the process, or a lack of awareness of present and future consequences?

Meanwhile, we have our own internal cultural pundits who find themselves at odds, morally and politically, with many of the manifestations of our culture. I'm talking, for example, of people troubled by the march of secularism. They might, in many ways, have more in common with the average Muslim than Ted Kennedy or Howard Stern.

The Moslem-West dance is indeed a complex one, and it will require time, patience, and subtlety as well as resolve and strength.

Waitone
April 6, 2004, 12:07 PM
A few random thoughts in no particular order:

--80% of mosques in the US are controlled by Wahabists clerics. The Wahabi sect was founded in the land of Arabia at about the same time as the US was founded on north america. Saudi money is the key component to the growth of Wahabism through out the world in general and the US in particular. Shut down the flow of money and a good part of the problem disappears.

--No doubt part of the Islamic (not Islamist) comunity feels threatened by Wahabi goons. If the mosque is the center of social activity for the community then you can count of social pressure to shut up and play the good Islamist (death to the honkey, etc.).

--A failure to integrate into American society is a the heart of the failure of the Islamic community to draw a distinction between the Islamic community and Wahabist goons.

--A separate, isolated community is a mild version of what we here in flyover country call a "ghetto." Ghettos have several sociological fallout factoids which are relevant. It makes it easier to persecute members of a ghetto when members of the "community" voluntary segregate themselves from the dominant society. Second, ghettos guarantee the development of some form of organized crime. Crime can be garden variety crooks or it can e sophisticated forms such as religio-political movements like Wahabi Islam.

--It takes someone of unusual character and moral strength to stand up in the middle of a ghetto and say, "I disagree with everything we believe here in the 'hood." That person is immediately subject to all kinds of social pressure at a minimum and to criminal action at the worse.

--I'm not the least surprise at the comparative lack of support of the US in the US Islamic community. I will however continue to wait for the"Allah Bless America" parade.

dwkennedy
April 6, 2004, 12:19 PM
According to some figures I looked up on the Internet, there are about 1 million Muslims in the United States. If only 1% supported terrorism, that would still be 1,000 people. And it would take only one or two to conduct some pretty serious terrorism (take Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols as an example.) But there doesn't seem to be much in the way of domestically produced Islamic terror in the US. All the 9-11 bombers were recently arrived from overseas, mostly Saudi Arabia, right?

People who are predisposed to dislike Muslims may conclude they're all just well-disciplined terrorists, waiting for the right moment to strike.

I am not sure how much we can assertain about the mindset of the American Muslim by studying the media. Look what a fine job they've done illuminating the defensive uses of firearms, versus the criminal abuses...

VNgo
April 6, 2004, 12:50 PM
I've given the issue some thought, and my conclusion is that most Muslims are peaceful people and would not resort to terrorism against "infidels". However, their nonviolence is due to personal squeamishnes rather than a moral constraints; they have no real objection to killing infidels per se, but don't have the stomach to get their hands dirty. Hence, they are upset at the death and destruction caused by the actions of their extremist fellow believers, but ultimately agree that the terrorists' objectives -- convert the world to Islam by any means necessary, death to infidels -- are right and proper.

SodaPop
April 6, 2004, 01:03 PM
There really isn't such a thing as "An American Muslem".

95% of Moslems that have come to this country follow the American dream and leave the theology in the rear view mirror. The vast majority of women I see in their head dresses are usually Nation of Islam people. :rolleyes:

Most don't speak up because they feel more attached to America than they do to some Moslem in Iran.


citing a large number of articles in which various muslim groups denounced the 9/11 attacks...


And they have no credibility.


Any anti-Islamic backlash in this country would probable kill more Hindus and Sikhs than Arabs. Two Sikhs were killed in Philadelphia shortly after Sept 11th.

Don Gwinn
April 6, 2004, 01:08 PM
I'm going to let this continue against my better judgment purely because it has so far been such a reasonable and thought-provoking exchange, with no one calling for death to all Muslims and no one trying to claim Islam is perfect.

Please continue to make me proud.

That is all.

fix
April 6, 2004, 01:23 PM
Most don't speak up because they feel more attached to America than they do to some Moslem in Iran.

Bingo.

Sean Smith
April 6, 2004, 02:07 PM
Another facet to consider:

Muslim immigrants and their descendants have been conspicuously absent as far as participants in terrorist activities. At least insofar as media coverage is concerned... and it is hard to believe that "crazy Muslim immigrants" wouldn't make for headlines that would sell. On the other hand, American converts to Islam have been conspicuous in their involvement in terrorism, the most obvious being:

Abdul Hamid (originally John Walker, fought for Taliban)
John Allen Mohammed (originally John Allen Williams, DC "sniper")
Asan Akbar (originally Mark Fidel Kools, attacked fellow soldiers in 101st Airborne with grenades)

Furthermore, countries we consider "Middle Eastern Allies" (Egypt, Saudi Arabia) have been far more involved in recent terrorist attacks against the United States than our supposed enemies (Lybia, Iran, Syria, Iraq).

Iain
April 6, 2004, 02:15 PM
Zealous converts I guess Sean. Met a few of them back at university, the college I attended was very christian in it's ethos and attracted christians of all persuasions. Those that I met that were converts, especially since arriving as freshers, were the most enthusiastic.

"Furthermore, countries we consider "Middle Eastern Allies" (Egypt, Saudi Arabia) have been far more involved in recent terrorist attacks against the United States than our supposed enemies (Lybia, Iran, Syria, Iraq)."

This part is interesting. Further indicates to me that there are more complex explanations for the phenomenon than it being purely about Islam. Am I right in saying that, Iran aside, the list you have given of 'supposed enemies' are not particularly theocratic states? Whether that is relevant or not I don't know. I would increasingly worry about attaching any 'ally' status to Saudi Arabia, I'm not too keen on the House of Saud regardless of their religion.

Sean Smith
April 6, 2004, 02:25 PM
Well, I left off the purely theocratic Taliban in Afghanistan, but they were hosts rather than participants. Egypt has a secular government, as did Iraq and Syria. Lybia was a kind of wierd "Islamic/communist/cult of personality" thing that is hard to categorize. Saudi Arabia is a religiously fundamentalist monarchy, and Iran is an outright theocracy with democratic window-dressing. Kind of a mix on both "sides," but events make the distinction look pretty artifical anyway.

MPFreeman
April 6, 2004, 02:28 PM
Middle east Muslims comprise roughly 8% of world's population, 2% of economic activiy of world and 65-70% of all terrorist activity in the world.

Terrorists are not corrupting a peaceful religion. They are devout individuals who act out what they read in their scriptures.

This is blatantly obvious for those who have read the islamic scriptures. It is the unspoken sixth pillar of the faithful, jihad.

TaurusCIA
April 6, 2004, 02:31 PM
A "friend" can be more dangerous than the enemy...They can get inside your defenses without any notice.

KaceCoyote
April 6, 2004, 03:05 PM
I suspect the whole issue is like this.

Lets say your a patron of a local bar(islam), you and your buddies just wanna go to the bar and have a drink or two and chill and get away from your troubles. Even if there are some drunken idiot college kids who grew up spoiled and stupid wanna get tanked and go pick fights, that doesnt mean YOU want to aswell right? Its just a bar right? Well you could tell'em they've had too many but is it your place? Do you really wanna deal with it, possibly get into a fight over stupid stuff..or would your rather just bite your tongue and relax.

Dont judge these guys by -OUR- cultural standards. They have different words for bravery, commitment, honor and love. Just because somone doesnt talk about it doesnt mean it dont exist. Sorta like a drunken uncle who does drugs? Everyone hears about how he does all this crazy stuff, but nobody says everything and sorta just tries to avoid the whole thing.



I could be wrong, I'm just a Coyote *** do I know.

Quick Draw McGraw
April 6, 2004, 03:47 PM
Well...I think if the idiot kids moved up from picking fights to killing people I'd feel a little more provoked to do or say something...

The drunken uncle that does drugs...I dunno, I kinda hope I would say something to him, especially if the drugs/drunkenness was hampering his family life or his ability to hold a job (if he hasn't retired yet).

You are right in implying that just because the muslim community isn't overwhelmingly coming down on terrorism doesn't mean that they necessarily support it, but it sure seems like they could clear up a lot of doubts and misconceptions if they did come down on it more forcibly and prevelently (sp?).

KaceCoyote
April 6, 2004, 03:58 PM
I cant say I dont -really- wish that they'd do something about all of this violence. I cant say I wouldnt have a profound respect for them if they did but....I cant blame them for being scared. I'm not in their shoes, I wont pretend to call them cowards or whatever. They have another culture, with its own values. I'm sure they're doing what they think is right.


I dont agree...but its what they believe is right.

Standing Wolf
April 6, 2004, 04:00 PM
So much more sensible and easier to be an atheist.

Zundfolge
April 6, 2004, 04:53 PM
Dont judge these guys by -OUR- cultural standards. They have different words for bravery, commitment, honor and love.
I'm sorry, but regardless of anyone's "cultural standards", killing innocent children is evil and if you aren't willing to condemn evil then you promote it.

I don't buy this hogwash that all cultures should be considered equal and that just because something is wrong here doesn't mean we should consider it wrong in another culture.

Killing children, raping women/children, "female circumcision", slavery ... these are all things that are considered "okay" in other cultures ... that doesn't make them less wrong and less evil.

Atticus
April 6, 2004, 04:54 PM
They are silent for many reasons- all of them being Israel.

SodaPop
April 6, 2004, 07:02 PM
I don't buy this hogwash that all cultures should be considered equal


They aren't and neither are all religions.


I've never read anyone on this board compare Mohammed to Ghandi, or Mohammed to Jesus or Mohammed to Buddha.


So much more sensible and easier to be an atheist.


True atheism is a religion.:evil: ;)

I think they've got a pretty good track record of being violent and oppressive too.

Terrorists are not corrupting a peaceful religion. They are devout individuals who act out what they read in their scriptures.

If you want to go down that road you're going to get into fights between literal translations of the Bible vs. Koran and they tend to go absolutely nowhere because most refuse to acknowledge that the writings weren't written in the same style and cultures.

In response to what you said here:

Terrorists are not corrupting a peaceful religion. They are devout individuals who act out what they read in their scriptures. This is blatantly obvious for those who have read the islamic scriptures. It is the unspoken sixth pillar of the faithful, jihad.


Its better to just say something "These terrorists are not corrupting a peacful religion, they are true followers of the violent Prophet Mohammed who founded the religion."

Does anyone want to debate that?

brookstexas
April 6, 2004, 08:23 PM
I think you should make up your own mind. Remember the Koran is considered the DIRECT word of Allah and taken as such.
http://www.hti.umich.edu/
Understanding of their "Book" can help understand their mindset.
Note: "People of the book" refers to Christians and Jews. Now before someone points out the Christian bible has all sorts of similiar things I know. I discount it as a moral guide also. It has nothing to do with understanding the moslem mindset. They have very little difference in the way it's interpreted. Now back to the world war between cultures....
Do a few keyword searches-

THE DINNER TABLE:
[5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.


[5.33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,

BT

MPFreeman
April 7, 2004, 12:21 AM
Sodapop,

I'll agree that Islamic founder used violence to establish the religion. No doubt.

I'll match literal translations of the teachings of Christ verses the literal teachings of Muhommed. Especially when it comes to advocating violence against one's enemies. Islam is not a 'love your enemy' world view.

If you want to take the Islamic scriptures seriously, you have to accept violence as a method for obtaining paradise.

Luckily, materialism and postmodern thought will cool the Islamic hold on most.

Gary H,

There are reasons why many noble organizations were founded and started based upon Christian thinking, such as the Humane Society, the Salvation Army, Hospitals galore, et. al.

And why do sects such as Quakers and numerous other pacifists spring up and thrive out of Christian soil and not Islamic soil.

Hedger
April 7, 2004, 12:39 AM
I don't really see the question as "Islam v. The West". I see it more as fanatic individuals using religion, of any flavor, to control or assert their will over large groups of people. History is full of it, we are just getting the latest installment and it happens to be Islamic fundamentalists.

Fanatics are fanatics, fungible to some extent. They will rely on whatever means they have at their disposal to assert their will and control, religion, political dogma, terror, whatever.

I don't think someone is evil because they follow the teachings of Islam. I do, however, think there are many fundamentalist folks in Iraq and Palestine that need to have their thinking caps readjusted one way or another. Training young people to strap on TNT and act as homicide bombers or hijack planes and use them to kill innocent people is simply sick, and those individuals who foster such actions, whatever their "religion", need to be brought to justice. Not because of their beliefs, but because of their actions against humanity.

:rolleyes:

7.62FullMetalJacket
April 7, 2004, 12:47 AM
There are religious extremists in each of the Big 3. What separates the fervor is western civilization. That is one of the threats to the jihadists. Westernized civil society will make their position less powerful.

I do not wish to debate religions and the debate is likley to degenerate. Most do not have sufficient knowledge of Islam to form a proper opinion. Focus on the cultural and political aspects.

The political aspect is very interesting. The governments in the ME range from religious monarchies to cults to dictatorships. Oppressed people tend to strike at the oppressor and the enabler. A very sophisticated order has arisen using Islam as the root and the coalescing criteria, but terror as the weapon. The west is the enabler because of our purchase of petroleum which props up the monarchis, cults and dictatorships.

The cultural aspects follow on the religion to some extent. Whereas we view religion as providing guidelines for living, and pick and choose as we go because of our western lifestyle. Freedom does that to people. Islam is a more demanding creed and is viewed as the rules. Without freedom, the oppressed seek solace in what they can; in this case Islam. Just as the poor and minorities in this country tend to gravitate to religion.

Then there are the power barons. Power is the corruptor and it is easy to incite malevolence in this explosive situation. People like UBL, Arafat, Hamas, etc. prey on the gullible to act out in violence against perceived enemies using selective interpretations of the Koran. They do not practice this themselves, but hide behind walls and in caves and exhort others to do the bidding. Just as our leadership hides and exhorts. There is a common thread, it is only the means, motives and results that differ.

This is a very complex mix of stuff, and explosive at times. Just remember that a few bad ones can spoil the entire bushel.

Gary H
April 7, 2004, 01:49 AM
I was hoping for posts without "them" and "their", but rather with references to "me" and "us."

Certainly we must have some active Moslems to provide information, or is silence in some way necessary. For example, is there Wahabi influence in the local mosques? What is the behind the scenes conversation with regards to fundamentalism? This response is much like the response to picking a woman's firearm..only the men respond.

Not asking for personal justification of anything...just some first hand experience with what is going on in your local mosque.

Maybe it is overly much to ask because of possible criticism.. don't know.

HBK
April 7, 2004, 01:51 AM
If you need evidence to condemn Islam as a violent, wicked religion, all you need to do is read the Koran.

Marko Kloos
April 7, 2004, 05:34 AM
Oh, please. Don't make me start posting Bible quotes. I can post three or four pages of stuff straight from the Bible that would make Christianity look like a definite contender in the "violent and wicked religion" sweepstakes.

Sure as daylight, we'd have plenty of believers jump in right afterwards and explain all the cited passages "in context", while others still would tell me that I lack the spiritual insight as an unbeliever to understand the quoted passages. At the very least, I'd have some of the resident clergy and devout believers attempt to educate me on what they would perceive as misrepresentations.

Why do you think it would be different if you did the same with the Koran on a message board that has an equal number of "average" Muslims on it?

This is not a "slam on Christianity", just a reminder that most of the world's religion's Holy Books have passages in them that can be seen as less than flattering by the non-adherents of that religion. Islam cannot claim differently, but neither can Christianity. (Need I remind you that Bible verses were used to justify slavery a scant two hundred years ago, for example?)

True atheism is a religion.

Horse hockey. Atheism is merely the lack of belief in a god, or gods. It lacks any of the traditional five aspects of religion. Atheism has no doctrine, ritual, or scriptures. Like the quote goes, "if atheism is a religion, then baldness is a hair color."

If you stretch the definition of "religion" so far as to include atheism, then you render it meaningless, because then just about any group of people sharing a common characteristic would be classified a "religion."

Oh, and HBK: you realize that you are enjoying the hospitality of a Muslim when you post to this board? How do you feel about using his own nickel to denigrate his personal faith?

SodaPop
April 7, 2004, 06:06 AM
Horse hockey. Atheism is merely the lack of belief in a god

You said the word "belief".;)

Iain
April 7, 2004, 06:56 AM
I'd like to say:

7.62FMJ - I really admire that last post of yours. There has been a trend amongst some to absolve us of all responsibility, we don't have too much of late but the Middle East has been a experimentation ground and Empire, particularly for my country. That doesn't mean I bear personal blame for 9/11, nor anyone else here, but more that there are more complex factors, social, political etc, than just Islam.

To return to the thread title - has there been an anti-Muslim backlash in the States? There was a drama shown here the other night, told the story of a guy who had been involved in the Far Right getting involved again. He was dubious because of the fights and the way that no-one ever used to listen to them, the character of the top man in the 'Party' (thinly veiled BNP) said:

"Not like that any more. Assylum seekers and immigrants opened the door for us, 9/11 kicked it off it's hinges."

To return to a thought I stated in my first post and have been thinking about since - the lack of apology and distancing from mainstream muslims because they see vast distance between themselves and the terrorist extremists already. The Christian Church is made up of very divergent groups, many of whom fail to recognise the others as christians at all, certainly the old 'evangelical churches' I was taken to as a kid had no time at all for Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons. So if a radical sect in Spain start trying to drive out all muslims after the rail bomb and using the 'Reconquest' of Spain about 600 years ago as their guide - would your local congregation feel in any way responsible? My parents church probably wouldn't.

An aside - atheism might not be a religion, but I find it takes as much work as being religious, especially when relatives regard you as a 'prodigal' waiting to be returned to the flock.

edited to add - I am really glad this thread has been left open despite one or two aberrations, it's an important topic and my thanks to all who have participated in that spirit.

Gary H
April 7, 2004, 10:15 AM
No Muslim willing to engage the topic is informative itself.

No Muslim THR member willing to inform us as to the involvement of the Wahabi in the leadership of local mosques, nor willing to give some insight into the point of view regarding violent attacks upon the U.S. and the West.

Marko Kloos:

Your post makes sense, but the topic would involve questioning the bible and local churches should the planes used on 9/11 have been hijacked by Cypriot Fundamentalist Christians, or the equivalent Catholic in a sort of Christian jihad.

fix
April 7, 2004, 10:33 AM
Oh, please. Don't make me start posting Bible quotes. I can post three or four pages of stuff straight from the Bible that would make Christianity look like a definite contender in the "violent and wicked religion" sweepstakes.

I'll take you up on that. Christianity is about the New Testament. You can post all you want from the Old Testament, but that has little to do with Christianity other than historical reference. There were no Christians before Jesus. They were Jews. Post some quotes that show Jesus advocating violence in His name. Go ahead, I dare ya. Heck, I'll even settle for one of the Apostles.

Again, I'm not saying that Muslims are all to blame for this. I take the same view as 7.62FMJ. I'm just sick and tired of the [whiney voice] "but Christians do it too" [/whiney voice] argument.

cloudkiller
April 7, 2004, 10:36 AM
Today I wondered if perhaps moslem extremists viewed military dictators such as Mubarak, Musharraf and Hussein as being part of the "western problem". Basically these dictators would be viewed as a sign of Western influence in their politics and economies etc.

It is just a thought.

Insofar as why more people don't speak out, it is more complicated that it appears. I don't recall millions in the US protesting every time US foreign policy led to the death of thousands of innocents as we supported some oppressive regime in Central or South America. For a long time the Christians in the US that rose up against lynchings and slavery were in the minority, and who, if anyone, picketed all of the conservative christian churches in the south who taught that such killings and enslavement were consistent with the faith? Most people fear being marginalized by their opinions, and prefer to stay uninvolved. Others will support tyranny such as 9/11 as part of a larger social outcry. It is disgusting and tragic, but true.

pax
April 7, 2004, 10:49 AM
"My god can beat up your god!"

Not on THR, he can't.

For you Christians feeling smug: Psalm 137:9, Exodus 32:25-29, Luke 14:26.

pax

What such people miscall their religion, is a vent for their bad humours and arrogance. -- Charles Dickens

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