Knockdown in thick mountainous brush


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BlondeBear63
May 28, 2014, 12:10 AM
I hunt deer as well black bear on Appalachian ridges that are generally narrow and the area below either side can be steep along with being very dense with brush. An animal that doesn't drop in its tracks can be a real pain to recover. And that is if it is killed early in the day. Imagine the joy of tracking and retrieving a 380 lb black bear that's shot, turns around and runs over the ridge to drop down the other side. And that other side is too steep to descend, thick brush at the bottom, and a mile trek back to the truck. Did I mention the sun had set?

Hardware choices are limited to: Marlin lever action in 30/30 or 45-70 due to opportunity. The recent lack of ammunition makes it either 170 gr or 405 gr Core-Lokt. Maximum range is under 125 yards and usually 50-100 yards. Iron sights, no optics. Nothing wrong with the hardware choices, standard stuff.

The game is white tail deer, black bear, and just maybe a 450+ lb black bear. Shot placement is pie plate sized in the vitals of a slow moving and leery target.

The question, and I hope to hear from real experiences in situations as previously described: Given identical shot placement, is there any preference to either guns/rounds in getting them to drop in their tracks rather than drop over the other side of the ridge?[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT]

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Bobson
May 28, 2014, 12:21 AM
Given identical shot placement, I don't think there will be a significant difference between the two options. A boiler room shot isn't going to be a DRT either way, and a hit to the lower neck or spine will drop a deer or black bear in it's tracks whether you're using a .30-30 or .45-70.

That said, I would probably opt for the .45-70 for both animals, in this specific situation; only because the larger diameter bullet will give you a bit more room for error - which, let's face it, is of value in the real-world, hunter ethics notwithstanding.

If you were hunting in an open field, I'd say it wouldn't matter. On a narrow ridge, in thick brush? I'd take the .45-70.

Water-Man
May 28, 2014, 01:20 AM
I've hunted with both. The 45-70 is a better choice.

There aren't any guarantees that, even with a good shot, the animal will drop on spot. Therefore, if the chances are as such that the animal will not be recovered , do not take the shot.

rcmodel
May 28, 2014, 01:34 AM
125 yards is a fur distance to very accurately place a shot with open sights.

And it will take that kind of accuracy to guarantee a DRT animal every time.

The only thing that will do it 100% of the time is a head or spine shot.

Anything else, the animal will run some distance before his brain runs out of oxygen and shuts the motor off.

rc

ColtPythonElite
May 28, 2014, 01:40 AM
You need to cut your distance in about half.

Bobson
May 28, 2014, 02:07 AM
There aren't any guarantees that, even with a good shot, the animal will drop on spot. Therefore, if the chances are as such that the animal will not be recovered , do not take the shot.
Allow me to summarize:

1. Even with a good shot, there are no guarantees of a DRT.
2. You're hunting in a place where only a DRT guarantees recovery of the animal.
3. If there is a chance you won't recover the animal, don't take the shot. (See #2, or, more simply, guarantee a DRT or don't take the shot. See #1 - There is no guarantee of a DRT.)

Ergo, don't take the shot. Don't even hunt there.

BlondeBear63
May 28, 2014, 02:11 AM
More information: I like my 30/30 gold trigger JM Marlin but really dislike tracking black bear through thick brush a mile from the truck and in the dark.

I feel it really comes to the ability of the round to impart sufficient traumatic hydraulic/hydrostatic shock. When I get to my other computer I will link to a very interesting article based on a lot of real world kills. Basically, it states imparting hydrostatic shock through the spine or bones connected to vertebrae (ribs) will impart such shock through the spinal column as to "knock out" the animal. This explains why an animal may appear dead but regain consciousness and get back up. If traumatic injury, such as heart or lung destruction, accompanies such a shot, then the animal dies before regaining consciousness. The same is true of hydraulic shock, but rather than causing unconsciousness due to shock transmitted through solid material, hydraulic shock will "knock out" an animal due to high fluid pressure increases all the way to the cranium. Imagine the amount of energy required to impart that much fluid pressure increase.

There is a great dichotomy in all of this: Too heavy of a bullet moving too fast will not impart as much energy into an animal as a smaller, lighter, bullet moving at the same velocity. This seems counter-intuitive, however, consider the .50 caliber round ball being shot at a heavy canvas sheet hung on a clothes line versus a .25 caliber round ball fired by a slingshot. The impact to the sheet will be greater using the slingshot as the muzzle loader round will pass through so easily as to transfer very little energy. This is the effect of hydrostatic shock. Substituting ballistics gel for the canvas quite nicely demonstrates hydraulic shock. A "boiler room" shot creating enough hydraulic shock to cause unconsciousness also causes enough internal destruction to render death before the animal regains consciousness. As previously stated, very interesting stuff.

What would be really helpful is feedback on the effectiveness of both the 30/30 and 45/70 in "boiler room" shots and how often they resulted in DRT on white tail deer. My suspicions are there will be little difference. However, I suspect each cartridge inflicts death by different forms of shock, with the 45/70 causing greater number of deaths due to hydraulic shock.
I feel the same to be true of black bears up to 275 lbs. Once above that weight, what really happens? Does the greater animal mass render useless the effectiveness of the 45/70 to produce hydraulic shock? If so, are the 30/30 and 45/70 equals at delivering hydrostatic in large black bears? Feedback or reports concerning the effectiveness of these cartridges on large black bears could be enlightening.
Of course, the .50 caliber round ball...

BlondeBear63
May 28, 2014, 02:22 AM
Colt,
When my faith becomes the size of a mustard seed...

BlondeBear63
May 28, 2014, 02:24 AM
rcmodel,
I regularly bust clay targets at 100 yards.

BlondeBear63
May 28, 2014, 02:40 AM
Just checked the Remington website. It shows the 30/30 having more energy at 100 yards than the 45/70. Who would have thunk it..? :)

Bobson
May 28, 2014, 02:51 AM
That's weird. I'm not sure how "energy" is measured in the context of firearms, but I would think it would have a lot to do with momentum.

If a .30-30 bullet of 170 grains is zipping through the air at about 1800 FPS, it's momentum is 306,000 g f/s.

In contrast, a .45-70 bullet of 400 grains plowing through the air at 1500 FPS has a momentum of 600,000 g f/s. Nearly twice the momentum of the smaller, faster round. But less energy?

Fast Frank
May 28, 2014, 03:32 AM
This sounds a LOT like the discussions where one pistol cartridge is compared to another, and the odds of what pistol shooters call the "One Shot Stop".

Oh, that's been a long and lively discussion indeed.

There have been all sorts of statistics gathered and quoted, and each cartridge has it's detractors and believers.

Let me do you a favor, and cut to the chase on where the pistol shooters ALWAYS end up in this discussion:

Try both. Find out what one you shoot best under a wide variation of situations.

If you are able to make better shots with one (For whatever reason) then that's The Best One.

Shot placement trumps everything else, and a .22 hit in the brain is better than a cannon ball in the foot.

In this case, I would suspect that the .30-30 may have a flatter trajectory, and therefore easier to make precise hits with.

Your Mileage May Vary.

GooseGestapo
May 28, 2014, 04:52 AM
I've got both, and hunt in similar conditions.
If limited to either the Rem. 170gr CorLokt factory load for the .30/30, or 405gr Rem. Corlokt FACTORY load for the .45/70, I too would opt for the .30/30 load.

However, change the load for the .45/70 to either the Hornady 350gr FTX factory load or most any other factory load to include the Remington 300gr HP or the Winchester 300gr HP, then definitely the .45/70.

My .45/70 wears a Williams reciever sight at the present, but for hunting in the fall in wooded areas of the South East, I use a low powered scope such as a Leupold 1.5-5x or a 2x-7x.

I've killed over a dozen deer with the .45/70 and mostly with cast bullets. My handloads beat the ~1,300fps of the factory loads hands down. Typically, I've used 400gr either hollow base or hollow-point cast bullets. At ~1,500fps of a hard cast bullet, expansion on deer is minimal. Complete penetration is assured ! All but one were DRT, and that one ran ~25yds and dropped. If he had run 90deg from the direction he ran, it would have been a "fun" drag.... 200yds up an 80% grade out of a gully.

I and my younger brother who hunts mule deer, elk, and bear in NV (where he lives) and UT, and CO uses a .45/70 with 400gr FNGC handloads at ~1,500fps (50.0gr H4895).
The elk he's killed have been very impressed with the load...
He's yet to recover a bullet and the CNS hits have been drt.....

My choice with the .30/30 is the 170gr Remington Corlokt bullet (component bullets) over 35.0gr of LVR or 34.0gr of RL15 for 2,300fps.
With a well placed shot, deer and pigs have been drt... I've taken over 100 deer with the .30/30 and a dozen pigs. (And, I've lost a few, too...) It works as well as most, though I now prefer the .35Rem or .358win, or .338MarlinExpress (especially the latter!).

But, my Marlin/Glenfield .30/30 wears a Nikon ProHunter 2x-7x scope. The light gathering of the scope gives me another 15min. of "shooting light" over the M94 Winch. that wears a Williams "Sour Dough" reciever sight.....

T.R.
May 28, 2014, 05:18 AM
I've been a big fan of the 30-30 cartridge for over 45 years. The bullets are specifically designed for rapid expansion and deep penetration at 30-30 velocities. My favorite is 170 grain Winchester Power Point. This ammo has taken many animals for me ranging from eastern whitetails to large western mulies and a red stag which weighed well over 300 lbs. In short, 30-30 is a reliable hunting cartridge for the forests and foothills within reasonable distances.

TR

hartcreek
May 28, 2014, 05:25 AM
You need to be a better stalker and pass on those marginal shots. Also you need to take advantage of some tech gadgets. They make thermal detectors and colored flashlights for detecting blood......heck even I have had night vision equipment for ten years now and it sure makes a Big difference over just having a flashlight.

jmr40
May 28, 2014, 06:01 AM
Animals hit with deadly shots are still going to live 10-30 seconds regardless of the gun or bullet. What they choose to do during that last few seconds is up to the individual animal. Some lay down and die, others run, and can cover a lot of ground in a few seconds.

If you want them DRT nothing kills faster than speed. Fast, quick expanding bullets in the lungs. None of your options are fast. The 2nd best choice is to break shoulders. I'd pick the most accurate of the 2 and aim for shoulders.

Willie Sutton
May 28, 2014, 08:27 AM
Animals hit with deadly shots are still going to live 10-30 seconds regardless of the gun or bullet. What they choose to do during that last few seconds is up to the individual animal.

^^ This, and there's no magic pill that will "knock them down".


You've got two ways to kill an animal with a rifle

(1): Brain hypoxia due to lowering the cerebral blood pressure.

(2): Massive CNS disruption.


Taking the first: Bigger holes in larger blood vessels cause loss of blood pressure faster. Even so, there's about a 5 second period in which cerebral blood pressure can be zero and there is still sufficient oxygen in the brain for concious processes to continue. Decapitation results in progressive loss of conciousness from loss of vision (first) to loss of hearing (last). It's not an instantaneous loss. Animals can civer quite a bit of ground in the time needed for all conciousness to be lost.

Taking the second, only hitting the medulla oblongata (very low in the brain) results in a "no-twitch" CNS disruption. Hit the brain up higher and you're still going to be dealing with the possibility of a short run.

The old way to prevent game from running isn't to worry about killing them instantly, it's based on mechanically preventing them from running. Think African tactics: Heavy solid bullet put thru both shoulders. Deep expansion, non-expanding. This advice is likely not the generally accepted North American advice but it would be instantly recognizable to anyone hunting African game: Personally I would load up a rifle using good solids and drive the bullet as fast as I could. I'd aim for the shoulder. And if that's not possible, the solid will penetrate deeplyu from any angle and in large calibers is very effective at both poking holes thru major blood vessels if you shoot for the heart and lungs, and in penetrating to the part of the brain that will stop an animal in it's tracks if you place the bullet into the right spot. On a bear that's about the size of a half dollar. Are you that good?


Me? I'd be shooting a short boltgun with a low to medium power scope in an adequate caliber with solids. Likely my .350 Rem Mag Lion Scout with North Fork solids. A Remington Model 660 in .350 Rem Mag would be ideal. Within your two choices neither is ideal, but the .45-70 would be better than the .30-30 by far.



Willie

.

MtnCreek
May 28, 2014, 08:33 AM
Bear63, Most of my hunting was in WNC in very steep terrain. Deer were cut up where they landed and backpacked out. Bear was a call some friends deal, but I suppose you could backpack them too. A buddy of mine's girlfriend shot a large bear with a .270, perfect hit and less than 40yd shot. He managed to go several hundred yards (in the wrong direction!). It can't be helped. Good thing about bears is they tend to leave a good trail (disturbed ground, broken laurels, ...).

courtgreene
May 28, 2014, 12:13 PM
I know this isn't the question you asked, but if tracking and hauling in the dark is your concern, what about just going back the next day when it's sunny? Even if it's not sunny it's at least not dark. Then you could use whatever you desired. You could also bring people with you to help with the drag.

BlondeBear63
May 28, 2014, 12:31 PM
I've got both, and hunt in similar conditions.
If limited to either the Rem. 170gr CorLokt factory load for the .30/30, or 405gr Rem. Corlokt FACTORY load for the .45/70, I too would opt for the .30/30 load.

However, change the load for the .45/70 to either the Hornady 350gr FTX factory load or most any other factory load to include the Remington 300gr HP or the Winchester 300gr HP, then definitely the .45/70.

My .45/70 wears a Williams reciever sight at the present, but for hunting in the fall in wooded areas of the South East, I use a low powered scope such as a Leupold 1.5-5x or a 2x-7x.

I've killed over a dozen deer with the .45/70 and mostly with cast bullets. My handloads beat the ~1,300fps of the factory loads hands down. Typically, I've used 400gr either hollow base or hollow-point cast bullets. At ~1,500fps of a hard cast bullet, expansion on deer is minimal. Complete penetration is assured ! All but one were DRT, and that one ran ~25yds and dropped. If he had run 90deg from the direction he ran, it would have been a "fun" drag.... 200yds up an 80% grade out of a gully.

I and my younger brother who hunts mule deer, elk, and bear in NV (where he lives) and UT, and CO uses a .45/70 with 400gr FNGC handloads at ~1,500fps (50.0gr H4895).
The elk he's killed have been very impressed with the load...
He's yet to recover a bullet and the CNS hits have been drt.....

My choice with the .30/30 is the 170gr Remington Corlokt bullet (component bullets) over 35.0gr of LVR or 34.0gr of RL15 for 2,300fps.
With a well placed shot, deer and pigs have been drt... I've taken over 100 deer with the .30/30 and a dozen pigs. (And, I've lost a few, too...) It works as well as most, though I now prefer the .35Rem or .358win, or .338MarlinExpress (especially the latter!).

But, my Marlin/Glenfield .30/30 wears a Nikon ProHunter 2x-7x scope. The light gathering of the scope gives me another 15min. of "shooting light" over the M94 Winch. that wears a Williams "Sour Dough" reciever sight.....
Thanks for your sharing your experience. I am limited to what is available off the shelf, not having the time or resources for handloading.

BlondeBear63
May 28, 2014, 12:37 PM
I know this isn't the question you asked, but if tracking and hauling in the dark is your concern, what about just going back the next day when it's sunny? Even if it's not sunny it's at least not dark. Then you could use whatever you desired. You could also bring people with you to help with the drag.
Due to work, time is often a factor. So going back the next day poses serious problems. Heck, even a late night drag makes the following day a real challenge. I like to hunt with various challenges such as weather, closing the range, etc. The one challenge I look to overcome as best I can before even hitting the mountains is reducing or eliminating the tracking and drag challenge.

BlondeBear63
May 28, 2014, 12:56 PM
So far it is beginning to sound as factory rounds do not deliver DRT due to hydraulic or hydrostatic shock. Can anyone share whether there were any broken ribs and the extent of trauma with their kills? Were any through and through shots? How far did they travel or DRT?

BlondeBear63
May 28, 2014, 01:07 PM
Animals hit with deadly shots are still going to live 10-30 seconds regardless of the gun or bullet. What they choose to do during that last few seconds is up to the individual animal.

^^ This, and there's no magic pill that will "knock them down".


You've got two ways to kill an animal with a rifle

(1): Brain hypoxia due to lowering the cerebral blood pressure.

(2): Massive CNS disruption.


Taking the first: Bigger holes in larger blood vessels cause loss of blood pressure faster. Even so, there's about a 5 second period in which cerebral blood pressure can be zero and there is still sufficient oxygen in the brain for concious processes to continue. Decapitation results in progressive loss of conciousness from loss of vision (first) to loss of hearing (last). It's not an instantaneous loss. Animals can civer quite a bit of ground in the time needed for all conciousness to be lost.

Taking the second, only hitting the medulla oblongata (very low in the brain) results in a "no-twitch" CNS disruption. Hit the brain up higher and you're still going to be dealing with the possibility of a short run.

The old way to prevent game from running isn't to worry about killing them instantly, it's based on mechanically preventing them from running. Think African tactics: Heavy solid bullet put thru both shoulders. Deep expansion, non-expanding. This advice is likely not the generally accepted North American advice but it would be instantly recognizable to anyone hunting African game: Personally I would load up a rifle using good solids and drive the bullet as fast as I could. I'd aim for the shoulder. And if that's not possible, the solid will penetrate deeplyu from any angle and in large calibers is very effective at both poking holes thru major blood vessels if you shoot for the heart and lungs, and in penetrating to the part of the brain that will stop an animal in it's tracks if you place the bullet into the right spot. On a bear that's about the size of a half dollar. Are you that good?


Me? I'd be shooting a short boltgun with a low to medium power scope in an adequate caliber with solids. Likely my .350 Rem Mag Lion Scout with North Fork solids. A Remington Model 660 in .350 Rem Mag would be ideal. Within your two choices neither is ideal, but the .45-70 would be better than the .30-30 by far.



Willie

.
Thanks Willie. Your African insights are something I have considered, but with trepidation as I haven't any real experiences with chest trauma associated with such a shot. I wouldn't want to follow a bear with a busted up leg into thick brush. Any ideas how well the 170 gr 30/30 would perform?

R.W.Dale
May 28, 2014, 01:21 PM
Pure impact velocity can and has proven to me to be a very powerful tool for disrupting the inner workings of a critter to the point of making flight impossible.

If you're concerned about anchoring the animal right there with a boiler room shot I personally feel you'd be better served with a 30-06 or 300 magnum or similar cartridge shooting slightly light for game but very tough bullets at high impact speeds.

IME nothing says "you ain't goin nowhere" like 6 or 7 pounds of blood and internal organs being liquified and splattered all over the forest in the immediate vicinity.

Slow and heavy doesn't get you this effect on thin skinned game

BlondeBear63
May 28, 2014, 01:29 PM
This sounds a LOT like the discussions where one pistol cartridge is compared to another, and the odds of what pistol shooters call the "One Shot Stop".

Oh, that's been a long and lively discussion indeed.

There have been all sorts of statistics gathered and quoted, and each cartridge has it's detractors and believers.

Let me do you a favor, and cut to the chase on where the pistol shooters ALWAYS end up in this discussion:

Try both. Find out what one you shoot best under a wide variation of situations.

If you are able to make better shots with one (For whatever reason) then that's The Best One.

Shot placement trumps everything else, and a .22 hit in the brain is better than a cannon ball in the foot.

In this case, I would suspect that the .30-30 may have a flatter trajectory, and therefore easier to make precise hits with.

Your Mileage May Vary.
Frank,

I agree with the pistol cartridge comparisons. However, in this case, I suspect there is a lot more kill information upon which to draw some conclusions. You hit the bullseye about shot placement. What I want to know, in both calibers, is the location and variations of best shot placement and overall effectiveness as to prevent a complicated retrieval. And this certainly affects my mileage. LOL

CarJunkieLS1
May 28, 2014, 05:21 PM
Gonna have to agree with JMR40 if you want DRT performance in terms of Down Right There and not necessarily Dead Right There the shoulder shot is the only way to go. You put that 45-70 in a deer or bears shoulder it WON'T go anywhere but down.

BlondeBear63
May 28, 2014, 06:50 PM
Gonna have to agree with JMR40 if you want DRT performance in terms of Down Right There and not necessarily Dead Right There the shoulder shot is the only way to go. You put that 45-70 in a deer or bears shoulder it WON'T go anywhere but down.
Given "Dead Right There" isn't too likely, "Down Right There" is appealing. I would rather a follow-up shot than follow all through the night, with the possibility of game loss. Is there a real and valid reason for choosing the 45/70 over the 30/30?

Willie Sutton
May 28, 2014, 08:07 PM
"Thanks Willie. Your African insights are something I have considered, but with trepidation as I haven't any real experiences with chest trauma associated with such a shot. I wouldn't want to follow a bear with a busted up leg into thick brush. Any ideas how well the 170 gr 30/30 would perform?"


If you break both shoulders you'll also take out vital blood vessels. Nothing is going very far like that before expiring.

I can't speak to the .30-30 for this, as I've never hunted with the cartridge. I can observe that you're not going to find factory loaded solids in that caliber, and I'm unsure if you can find handloading bullets in solids that are safe for tubular magazines. You probably can, but I would have to do some research. You want a deep penetrator, not an expanding bullet for this use, driven as fast as possible. I'm not sure the .30-30 is the right choice but if you are limited to that, I'd at least study the possibilities. A .30-06 handloaded with solids would be pretty darned good, but unsure if you have access to one.


Willie

.

3212
May 28, 2014, 08:12 PM
A shoulder shot with the one you're most accurate with is the best advice IMO.I've taken 16 whitetails with the 30-30 and witnessed the gamut of reactions.Most have died at about 50 yards,some drt and some 100 yards.All were shot from the ribs forward with 170 grain corelokts.Most at ranges under 100 yards in an area like you describe.As I remember,all were pass throughs with good blood trails.I never shot a bear or fired a 45-70.

R.W.Dale
May 28, 2014, 08:52 PM
Before we go too far down the "African game" route the OP needs to check the law in his local.

It's not unusual for regulations to specifically prohibit FMJ or non expanding bullets for hunting.

Granted a hard cast bullet of the right hardness can do the same thing. But are these a commercially viable option for the OP

BlondeBear63
May 28, 2014, 09:54 PM
Before we go too far down the "African game" route the OP needs to check the law in his local.

It's not unusual for regulations to specifically prohibit FMJ or non expanding bullets for hunting.

Granted a hard cast bullet of the right hardness can do the same thing. But are these a commercially viable option for the OP
FMJ not allowed. Remington Core-Lokt will be used as it is available off the shelf.

BlondeBear63
May 28, 2014, 09:56 PM
A shoulder shot with the one you're most accurate with is the best advice IMO.I've taken 16 whitetails with the 30-30 and witnessed the gamut of reactions.Most have died at about 50 yards,some drt and some 100 yards.All were shot from the ribs forward with 170 grain corelokts.Most at ranges under 100 yards in an area like you describe.As I remember,all were pass throughs with good blood trails.I never shot a bear or fired a 45-70.
Thanks 3212. I am looking for real world feedback like yours.

BlondeBear63
May 28, 2014, 11:40 PM
Here is the link to which I originally referred. It is VERY informative:

http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/Game+Killing+Fundamentals.html?__utma=1.1335239893.1401334628.1401334628.1401334628.1&__utmb=1.0.10.1401334628&__utmc=1&__utmx=-&__utmz=1.1401334628.1.1.utmcsr=(direct)|utmccn=(direct)|utmcmd=(none)&__utmv=-&__utmk=213111444

back40
May 29, 2014, 07:00 AM
I agree with what has been previously said regarding DRT and the many factors that are involved.

I took last season's 7 pointer (135# field dressed) with a .30-30 170gr corelokt. it was a 55yd shot with iron sights that passed completely through. one lung was liquefied and the other was in 2 or three pieces iirc. can't recall what damage to the heart if any. he ran 20yards and flopped.

in my mind the question is whether you can place a shot as accurately with the .45-70 as you can with the .30-30. both of mine wear irons and i regularly shoot them out to 160 yds. however, some guys are affected by the .45-70's recoil and shoot them less proficiently.

if you shoot them equally well, i'd probably choose the .45-70 if interested in bear.

Davek1977
May 29, 2014, 07:11 AM
All other things being equal, I'm going with the obvious answer that a bigger hole is a better hole in terms of anchoring game on the spot. Bigger hole=more damage=more blood loss/bone damage=less distance traveled

BlondeBear63
May 30, 2014, 09:29 PM
All other things being equal, I'm going with the obvious answer that a bigger hole is a better hole in terms of anchoring game on the spot. Bigger hole=more damage=more blood loss/bone damage=less distance traveled
I am a fan of bigger bullets, to an extent. It must be "shootable" and easy to carry. A 5 lb. short-barreled BMG would definitely anchor them. However, I have to be practical, using that which I have fairly easy access. This means choosing the 45/70 or 30/30. And from I gather, the 30/30 is being touted better than the 45/70, using factory loads.

BlondeBear63
May 30, 2014, 11:10 PM
That's weird. I'm not sure how "energy" is measured in the context of firearms, but I would think it would have a lot to do with momentum.

If a .30-30 bullet of 170 grains is zipping through the air at about 1800 FPS, it's momentum is 306,000 g f/s.

In contrast, a .45-70 bullet of 400 grains plowing through the air at 1500 FPS has a momentum of 600,000 g f/s. Nearly twice the momentum of the smaller, faster round. But less energy?

I double checked the Remington website as well as plugged and chugged the velocity and mass to find the published energies are correct. In off-the-shelf Remington rounds available to me, the 30/30 has greater energy than the 45/70. Who would'a thunk it?

BlondeBear63
May 30, 2014, 11:18 PM
From all the great help and input, I believe the best answer to my question is the use of the 170 grain 30/30 grain Core-Lokt aimed at taking out the shoulder "African style". I would have thought the 45/70 a better choice.

Many thanks to all contributors! :)

RPRNY
May 31, 2014, 12:20 AM
Hydrostatic shock and related trump is, at best, something that may happen when super velocity bullets strike very close to central nervous tissue or inelastic organs. At best. The science, such as it is, suggests it may only exist in reality through exposure to high explosives. In any event, neither the 30-30 nor the 45-70 are going to deliver any velocity enhanced damage. I love the 30-30, especially my Marlin 336 Texan. For deer and black bear in the Northeast, where the former are generally 150 lbs or less and then latter 250 lbs or less and tracking is less challenging than the conditions you describe, that would be my choice.

In your case, 45-70. In the event that you do not make a central nervous debilitating shot, you will rely on blood loss. That 405 Core-lokt is going to make a bigger, leakier hole and will very likely be through and through even on your big black bear. The low velocity means less meat damage, a distinct benefit to these non-hydrostatic rounds. Bigger,leakier hole better.

buck460XVR
May 31, 2014, 12:57 PM
Allow me to summarize:

1. Even with a good shot, there are no guarantees of a DRT.
2. You're hunting in a place where only a DRT guarantees recovery of the animal.
3. If there is a chance you won't recover the animal, don't take the shot. (See #2, or, more simply, guarantee a DRT or don't take the shot. See #1 - There is no guarantee of a DRT.)

Ergo, don't take the shot. Don't even hunt there.


Pretty much sums it up. Over the years, I've had deer drop in their tracts from a high shoulder hit and never take another step and then I've shot other deer in the same general area and they've gone 40 yards before going down using three legs or pushing themselves along with just their hind legs. I've butchered deer that were hit in the shoulders and seen massive damage done to joints on both sides. I've also butchered deer where there was a just a clean hole thru both shoulder blades. The difference in the hit was a matter of only a inch or two. The bullet and the gun were the same.

You seem to be looking for the "magic bullet", the "Holy Grail" so many hunters are searching for. The one bullet that will work in the guns you have, and will put that animal down in it's tracks every time. That quest many times brings folks to internet gun forums in hopes that somewhere someone has the answer that seems to elude so many. The reason the answer is so elusive is because there is none. Despite what bullet manufacturers want to tell you....and what you are hoping for , there are no "magic Bullets". The hit will make more of a difference than the bullet in either of the guns you have using readily available factory ammo. Without hitting the CNS, you will never be guaranteed a DRT. A 30-06 with more velocity and capable of shooting a heavier bullet would make more of a difference than any bullet outta a 30-30 or 45-70. Even then, a DRT everytime is not going to be guaranteed.

I have hunted a large area of dense swamps for most of my life. I know all too well what a poor hit means when you are following a blood trail when standing in water up to your waist and the sun in setting behind the trees. I too sought out every bullet combo possible in attempt to make it easier. After 40 years, I realized shot placement and shot choices, whether with a bow or gun was paramount. Even then, there are so many variables that play a part, that nuttin' is guaranteed. Nowadays I hunt deer with handguns only. Shot placement and shot choices are even more important now, especially when you add my old age to the story. I hardly ever take a shot in the deep swamps anymore unless it's early in the day and one of the two boys are with me. Otherwise it just ain't worth it. In other hunting areas, where retrieval is easier, it's different. I believe this is where you will end up. You either have to accept the fact that the retrieval will be a long and tedious task....or you don't pull the trigger. Or you find a different place to hunt.

BlondeBear63
May 31, 2014, 11:48 PM
Hydrostatic shock and related trump is, at best, something that may happen when super velocity bullets strike very close to central nervous tissue or inelastic organs. At best. The science, such as it is, suggests it may only exist in reality through exposure to high explosives. In any event, neither the 30-30 nor the 45-70 are going to deliver any velocity enhanced damage. I love the 30-30, especially my Marlin 336 Texan. For deer and black bear in the Northeast, where the former are generally 150 lbs or less and then latter 250 lbs or less and tracking is less challenging than the conditions you describe, that would be my choice.

In your case, 45-70. In the event that you do not make a central nervous debilitating shot, you will rely on blood loss. That 405 Core-lokt is going to make a bigger, leakier hole and will very likely be through and through even on your big black bear. The low velocity means less meat damage, a distinct benefit to these non-hydrostatic rounds. Bigger,leakier hole better.
Thanks for your input. There is a bit more to the story. Concerning hydrostatic shock, it is the same thing as being hit by an uppercut. in bare knuckle fighting. The force of the jaw being slamming into the skull at the mandible or through the teeth transmit a shock that causes blackout. In today's boxing there are mouth pieces as well as gloves that make the haymaker work by concussion of the brain. I am exploring whether anyone has any experiences in dispatching deer and/or bear using shot placement that causes enough significant hydrostatic shock to render them DRT.
As far as blood trails, with a black bear, forget it. Their fur sops up almost all of it. Too, it took a bit of double checking and rechecking to get used to the idea the 170 grain 30/30 Core-Lokt has better all around ballistics, including energy, than the 405 grain 45/70. Thanks again for your input.

BlondeBear63
June 1, 2014, 12:38 AM
Pretty much sums it up. Over the years, I've had deer drop in their tracts from a high shoulder hit and never take another step and then I've shot other deer in the same general area and they've gone 40 yards before going down using three legs or pushing themselves along with just their hind legs. I've butchered deer that were hit in the shoulders and seen massive damage done to joints on both sides. I've also butchered deer where there was a just a clean hole thru both shoulder blades. The difference in the hit was a matter of only a inch or two. The bullet and the gun were the same.

You seem to be looking for the "magic bullet", the "Holy Grail" so many hunters are searching for. The one bullet that will work in the guns you have, and will put that animal down in it's tracks every time. That quest many times brings folks to internet gun forums in hopes that somewhere someone has the answer that seems to elude so many. The reason the answer is so elusive is because there is none. Despite what bullet manufacturers want to tell you....and what you are hoping for , there are no "magic Bullets". The hit will make more of a difference than the bullet in either of the guns you have using readily available factory ammo. Without hitting the CNS, you will never be guaranteed a DRT. A 30-06 with more velocity and capable of shooting a heavier bullet would make more of a difference than any bullet outta a 30-30 or 45-70. Even then, a DRT everytime is not going to be guaranteed.

I have hunted a large area of dense swamps for most of my life. I know all too well what a poor hit means when you are following a blood trail when standing in water up to your waist and the sun in setting behind the trees. I too sought out every bullet combo possible in attempt to make it easier. After 40 years, I realized shot placement and shot choices, whether with a bow or gun was paramount. Even then, there are so many variables that play a part, that nuttin' is guaranteed. Nowadays I hunt deer with handguns only. Shot placement and shot choices are even more important now, especially when you add my old age to the story. I hardly ever take a shot in the deep swamps anymore unless it's early in the day and one of the two boys are with me. Otherwise it just ain't worth it. In other hunting areas, where retrieval is easier, it's different. I believe this is where you will end up. You either have to accept the fact that the retrieval will be a long and tedious task....or you don't pull the trigger. Or you find a different place to hunt.
Hi Buck,

You sound like you're one of our'n. While I was sort of hoping for a "Holy Grail", I wasn't expecting it. My first deer was taken using a 20 gauge slug at 25 yards, was a complete pass through shot that also cut a 1 1/2" sapling cleanly in two. That deer was DRT, not tore up and I would like to be able to repeat that affect at 45-90 yards and up to 125 yards. I take only ethical shots as I like to hunt, whether or not I make a kill. Being outdoors is the best part.
The bottom line? I have actually gained great insight. Willie's suggestion to go "African style" will be tried as having the animal incapable of going a great way on all four is good advice. So this forum and all of its contributors have been a great aid to a real hunter, not just some armchair animal killer.
I am really interested in your handgun hunting and have considered such. I have a Ruger Super Blackhawk that I always carry while hunting. However, I am considering something else since hearing of a few incidents. My best hunting buddy was turkey hunting this Spring and when coming back down the mountain found bear tracks following his size 11s. He showed me the pictures and they are huge tracks, much bigger than his boots. Too, after telling another acquaintance of my buddy's experience, he relayed that one of his friends was deer hunting and, when he turned around to leave, there was a 400 lb bear watching him less than 40 yards away. Another friend of his had a similar experience with a mountain lion! Yet another hunting friend of mine had a 250 lb black climb the tree he was in and he couldn't get a shot due to the angle of the stand and had to shoot downward to scare it off. This has me considering whether I should go with a double action.
How is your handgun rigged? Do lasers work well? Tell me more.

twofifty
June 1, 2014, 01:17 AM
Given "Dead Right There" isn't too likely, "Down Right There" is appealing. I would rather a follow-up shot than follow all through the night, with the possibility of game loss. Is there a real and valid reason for choosing the 45/70 over the 30/30?
I've encountered a few of those TN and Carolina bears while hiking. The OPs reluctance to track one of them off of nice old Smokey bald into a dark rhody forest makes sense.

buck460XVR
June 1, 2014, 12:54 PM
This has me considering whether I should go with a double action.
How is your handgun rigged? Do lasers work well? Tell me more.

For SD against dangerous game DA is nice to have. For true hunting type scenarios, SA is always gonna be more accurate. That's why it's nice to have both options available.

MY state, like many others, does not allow for the use of lasers for hunting. I use traditional open sights......IMO, what handgun hunting is all about. Over the last few years, I've had to pass on many shots with my handguns that would have been "gimmees" with my scoped ought-six. Very similar to hunting with a bow. Part of the progression of many hunters is the focus turning to the hunt itself and not the kill, or the amount of game in the back of the truck. Many times, knowing one had a shot and decided to pass is more satisfying than the trailing/dragging of an animal from a remote area, especially if it is not a special animal. Used to be I would shoot any buck, any where and do whatever it took to get it out. Nowadays, the amount of work after the shot is a big consideration. Lately, I'd rather shoot a nice doe close to the truck or road as opposed to a fair buck a mile back in. Used to be the other way around. Used to be, I had to come back with something or it was not a successful hunt. Anymore, it's a success just to get out.

Good to see you are realistic in your expectations. So many come here and to other gun forums and think that when they fail, it is because the bullet, the bow or some other equipment failed them. Truth is, that is rarely the case. Truth is, more times than not, they are the ones that let themselves and the quarry down.

Part of the reason I enjoyed hunting the tough area I did is because of the challenges it presented. It is still why I go back even tho I now have easier places to hunt. The bucks are smaller and fewer, but the challenge is what makes for the trophy. It's not for everyone. It ain't about the braggin' rights or the mount on the wall. It's about the satisfaction and the feeling I get from the hunt there itself. To those that don't understand, it ain't worth the trouble to try and explain.

BlondeBear63
June 1, 2014, 11:02 PM
For SD against dangerous game DA is nice to have. For true hunting type scenarios, SA is always gonna be more accurate. That's why it's nice to have both options available.

MY state, like many others, does not allow for the use of lasers for hunting. I use traditional open sights......IMO, what handgun hunting is all about. Over the last few years, I've had to pass on many shots with my handguns that would have been "gimmees" with my scoped ought-six. Very similar to hunting with a bow. Part of the progression of many hunters is the focus turning to the hunt itself and not the kill, or the amount of game in the back of the truck. Many times, knowing one had a shot and decided to pass is more satisfying than the trailing/dragging of an animal from a remote area, especially if it is not a special animal. Used to be I would shoot any buck, any where and do whatever it took to get it out. Nowadays, the amount of work after the shot is a big consideration. Lately, I'd rather shoot a nice doe close to the truck or road as opposed to a fair buck a mile back in. Used to be the other way around. Used to be, I had to come back with something or it was not a successful hunt. Anymore, it's a success just to get out.

Good to see you are realistic in your expectations. So many come here and to other gun forums and think that when they fail, it is because the bullet, the bow or some other equipment failed them. Truth is, that is rarely the case. Truth is, more times than not, they are the ones that let themselves and the quarry down.

Part of the reason I enjoyed hunting the tough area I did is because of the challenges it presented. It is still why I go back even tho I now have easier places to hunt. The bucks are smaller and fewer, but the challenge is what makes for the trophy. It's not for everyone. It ain't about the braggin' rights or the mount on the wall. It's about the satisfaction and the feeling I get from the hunt there itself. To those that don't understand, it ain't worth the trouble to try and explain.
Hi Buck,
Growing up on a farm, I have done plenty of killing. True hunting, that is a different thing. I try to be understanding of those who don't have my background in killing. If it weren't for putting meat in the freezer, I would probably pick up a camera.
I am an ethical hunter who likes the challenges of planning and executing a gratifying hunt. Time spent scouting and observing is better than that spent tracking and dragging out an animal that ran deep in thick brush. And to this end, I asked the questions in the OP.
Only once can I say the ammo was at fault. Otherwise, it was my lack of preparation of the gun, scope, etc. I gained my smarts early in life by adopting the attitude to readily admit I was wrong or did not know and ask to be taught what was right and truthful. Amazing how much one can learn by listening to someone who knows rather than defending one's own mis-beliefs. "OK, I guess I might not understand it right. Could you show me the right way?" Some of the wisest words.
"It's about the satisfaction and the feeling I get from the hunt there itself. To those that don't understand, it ain't worth the trouble to try and explain." Like I said, you're one of our'n. :)
Thanks for all you help.

olafhardtB
June 7, 2014, 02:24 PM
Even a CNS hit does not guarantee DRT. I was once attacked by a guinea after I chopped its head off. For the energy theorist a warm cup of coffee delivers more energy to your mouth and throat than several hits with a 30-06. If momentum is your thing a well pitched soft ball is better bear protection than a 30-06. In short, if you shoot the critter and it is DRT, then it is DRT. If it isn't it isn't.

BlondeBear63
June 8, 2014, 12:10 AM
Even a CNS hit does not guarantee DRT. I was once attacked by a guinea after I chopped its head off. For the energy theorist a warm cup of coffee delivers more energy to your mouth and throat than several hits with a 30-06. If momentum is your thing a well pitched soft ball is better bear protection than a 30-06. In short, if you shoot the critter and it is DRT, then it is DRT. If it isn't it isn't.
Being both raised on a farm as well as a hunter I have dispatched a LOT of animals. After cleanly chopping the head off a chicken, it ran 20', took off as pretty as you please, flew 40' and reached a height of twenty before veering to the right and landing atop the barn's lean-too. I stood 4' from a 1000 lb steer my uncle shot in the head with a .22 Short. That steer was so dead, it shook the ground when it hit. I have also had squirrels come back to life in my hunting vest after falling 60' from trees and landing on hard surfaces. Killing isn't exact, and the OP concerned avoiding protracted and difficult recoveries.
Concerning energy, the amount of energy to heat a cup of coffee is about 10 Joules. A 30-06 165 grain bullet moving at 2,800 ft/s has 3,894 Joules of energy. Unless I am seriously errant, I think most people will take their chances swallowing a hot cup of coffee than a 30-06 bullet at speed. Not many people survive eating bullets. Too, I believe the vast majority of people who traverse country with bears are likely to choose a gun over a softball.
Again, my OP concerned reducing or eliminating difficult game recovery.

olafhardtB
June 9, 2014, 03:46 AM
1 BTU= 1055.6 joules
8oz coffee by weight is 1/2#
1/2#/cup(138.6F-98.6F)1BTU/#F= 20BTU/cup1055.6 joules/BTU=20116 joules/cup.
Sounds like a clip of 30-06 to me. My point here is that numbers don't kill and death is not that predictable. I am truly delighted to read your chicken execution story and to discuss cartridge effectiveness with someone who has actually seen and killed living critters. I read people talking about bird shot not being effective for home defence and my mind goes back to helping a buddy clean a hoodlum sized hog he had introduced to one 16 gauge load of 6's at self defense distance. Heck, everything I ever shot from hogs to grasshoppers with a 22 either died or ran off. Isn't that the goal in self defence? But I still keep a 357 handy cause I can.

short barrel
June 9, 2014, 08:38 PM
I've used both extensively. I finally settled on the 45/70 with factory Remington 405 grain soft points. Although I've never shot a bear, I've shot deer-o-plenty with both the 30/30 and the 45/70. Never ever has a deer walked or ran away from the 45/70, but I've had tracking jobs too many times with the 30/30.

short barrel
June 9, 2014, 08:41 PM
I forgot to say that in the mountains of VA where I hunt, I'm faced with the same Appalachian ridges. Shots I would not take with the 30/30 due to the awful terrain are no problem with the 45/70. Mine is the H&R Buffalo Classic. I installed brass sights from Skinner. A reasonably large rear peep and a brass blade on the front. I'm good to 150 yards, but where I hunt, such opportunities are rare. Most shots are under 75.

olafhardtB
June 9, 2014, 10:33 PM
I hunt in the Ouachita Mountians. Many times when the squirrels weren't moving I would pick out the futherest target I could see and pace off that distance. I proved to myself that l would never need more than a 50 yard gun. I don't hunt right aways, bean fields, grasslands , etc. My current toy is a 500S&W Handi rifle.

BlondeBear63
June 10, 2014, 01:30 AM
I forgot to say that in the mountains of VA where I hunt, I'm faced with the same Appalachian ridges. Shots I would not take with the 30/30 due to the awful terrain are no problem with the 45/70. Mine is the H&R Buffalo Classic. I installed brass sights from Skinner. A reasonably large rear peep and a brass blade on the front. I'm good to 150 yards, but where I hunt, such opportunities are rare. Most shots are under 75.
Great input Short Barrel. I certainly prefer & greatly appreciate real world experiences over all other science based speculation, etc. I like my 336 JM Marlin in 30-30 and found a good deal on Armslist for ammo. So, unless a great deal, read trade, comes along, it is what I will be using this coming Fall. This forum has been great for causing me to think about things that should have been obvious. Again, I must thank Willie for his idea on going "African Style" and taking out the shoulder.
Where do you hunt? I usually do so in the National Forest near Eagle Rock / Fincastle. I'd really like to see that Buffalo gun.

BlondeBear63
June 10, 2014, 01:31 AM
1 BTU= 1055.6 joules
8oz coffee by weight is 1/2#
1/2#/cup(138.6F-98.6F)1BTU/#F= 20BTU/cup1055.6 joules/BTU=20116 joules/cup.
Sounds like a clip of 30-06 to me. My point here is that numbers don't kill and death is not that predictable. I am truly delighted to read your chicken execution story and to discuss cartridge effectiveness with someone who has actually seen and killed living critters. I read people talking about bird shot not being effective for home defence and my mind goes back to helping a buddy clean a hoodlum sized hog he had introduced to one 16 gauge load of 6's at self defense distance. Heck, everything I ever shot from hogs to grasshoppers with a 22 either died or ran off. Isn't that the goal in self defence? But I still keep a 357 handy cause I can.
1 BTU = Energy required to change temperature of 1 gallon of water 1 degree.
1 BTU = 1055 Joules
1 gallon = 128 oz.
1 cup of coffee = 8 oz.
1 Gallon of coffee contains 16 cups of coffee.
40 = Amount of energy change in Fahrenheit degrees.
To change 1/16 of a gallon 40 requires 2.5 BTU or 2637.6 Joules of energy.
A 30-06 165 grain bullet moving at 2,800 ft/s has 3,894 Joules of energy
It is all about the impact, more specifically the rate of impact, of that energy. That's why it is preferable to swallow a cup of hot coffee than a 30-06 165 grain bullet moving at 2,800 ft/s.
Final Answer.

BlondeBear63
June 10, 2014, 01:35 AM
I hunt in the Ouachita Mountians. Many times when the squirrels weren't moving I would pick out the futherest target I could see and pace off that distance. I proved to myself that l would never need more than a 50 yard gun. I don't hunt right aways, bean fields, grasslands , etc. My current toy is a 500S&W Handi rifle.
How well do you like the .500 S&W? Is the ammo expensive or difficult to find? Have you managed to dispatched much game with it? If so, how many were DRT?

BlondeBear63
June 10, 2014, 01:59 AM
I've used both extensively. I finally settled on the 45/70 with factory Remington 405 grain soft points. Although I've never shot a bear, I've shot deer-o-plenty with both the 30/30 and the 45/70. Never ever has a deer walked or ran away from the 45/70, but I've had tracking jobs too many times with the 30/30.
Forgot to ask, what differences are you seeing between the cartridges that accounts for the advantages of the 45/70? According to the ballistics information from Remington, the 170 grain 30/30 has greater energies than the 45/70. As previously mentioned, I believe more in real world results than science based speculation. And for snorts & giggles, I am an engineer!

olafhardtB
June 11, 2014, 01:54 AM
Blond bear, 1BTU=energy to change one POUND of water one degree Fahrenheit. Since one gallon =8.34 pounds of water you are off by a factor of 8.34. My figures are correct. I like to post this meaningless mathematical drivel when guys come up with various formulas to indicate bullet effectiveness. I saw one formula that when applied said you would feel better if you shot your self with a 22. I seriously think my model 94 Winchester is a great deer and black bear gun.
I have never hunted with my Handirifle and it has never been polluted with a factory round. It will break rocks. As far as the 500 S&W goes, the Ammo is outrageously expensive and the components aren't cheap. However, if you cast boolits it becomes a really versatile carbine. In addition to the 500 rifle molds you can use the 50 caliber muzzle loader stuff. We are currently testing with the Lee 365 grain flat nosed modern minie which is a huge hollow base wad cutter. You can get some respectable velocities out of truly large lead boolits with relative small amounts of fast burning powder. I haven't done it but I am going to try one ounce of bird shot in it. The Handirifle action is incredibly stout. I bought it to see if I could come up with a not to loud, low recoil load that would shoot a big hole length wise through a hog. If you cast and reload they are a real hoot.

short barrel
June 13, 2014, 01:01 PM
Blondebear - tried to send you a pm but cannot for some reason. I think we might be neighbors. I'm about a mile south of Fincastle on 220.

BlondeBear63
June 13, 2014, 01:45 PM
Blond bear, 1BTU=energy to change one POUND of water one degree Fahrenheit. Since one gallon =8.34 pounds of water you are off by a factor of 8.34. My figures are correct. I like to post this meaningless mathematical drivel when guys come up with various formulas to indicate bullet effectiveness. I saw one formula that when applied said you would feel better if you shot your self with a 22. I seriously think my model 94 Winchester is a great deer and black bear gun.
I have never hunted with my Handirifle and it has never been polluted with a factory round. It will break rocks. As far as the 500 S&W goes, the Ammo is outrageously expensive and the components aren't cheap. However, if you cast boolits it becomes a really versatile carbine. In addition to the 500 rifle molds you can use the 50 caliber muzzle loader stuff. We are currently testing with the Lee 365 grain flat nosed modern minie which is a huge hollow base wad cutter. You can get some respectable velocities out of truly large lead boolits with relative small amounts of fast burning powder. I haven't done it but I am going to try one ounce of bird shot in it. The Handirifle action is incredibly stout. I bought it to see if I could come up with a not to loud, low recoil load that would shoot a big hole length wise through a hog. If you cast and reload they are a real hoot.
Olaf, You are right. 1 BTU = energy to change the temperature of 1 POUND of water 1 degree Fahrenheit.
I have followed the .500 S&W with a bit of interest as it is somewhat similar to the 50-70 Gov't. What I wonder is real world considerations. My main hunting firearm is a .50 muzzle loader as rifle season is short. I have seen a lot of muzzle loading bullet combinations tried, and fail. The single biggest problem I see are guys using 240 grain sabots in a 1:28" twist barrel with a "magnum" load. Lots of fliers. The same with 370+ grains in slow twist guns of 1:38 or more. The lightweight slugs generally have inconsistent drop due to a nose up attitude and most guys blame the scope until they try a better load. The bigger slugs with too slow of a twist just tumble and go anywhere. And then of course, there is velocity. It seems everyone is trying to create a laser beam that will hit a fly at a mile when in real world practicality, taking a shot at over 150 yards with ANY muzzle loader is questionable. And Remington has just introduced a muzzle loader capable of handling 4 pellets, total of 200 grains, of powder.
According to my ballistic calculator, the appropriate bullet length is 2" for 1:18.75" of twist in .50 caliber. That's a lot of bullet and probably a bit more than the case can handle. But that length is a good thing for attempting to pass completely through a hog. Referring to the shorter bullet, it will tumble much easier in a hog, easier than a longer one, even if of equal mass. Too, when the shorter bullet fragments it will shed energy quicker. My thoughts are to achieve complete penetration, use a long hard, bullet, even consider copper if additional velocity is required for distance considerations.

BlondeBear63
June 13, 2014, 01:47 PM
Blondebear - tried to send you a pm but cannot for some reason. I think we might be neighbors. I'm about a mile south of Fincastle on 220.
ShortBarrel,
HOW-DEE!, We are neighbors. I live in Bedford and hunt the gasline area. I bet you have as well.

short barrel
June 13, 2014, 08:26 PM
Blonde - I was out your way today on my bike. Came of the Parkway on 43 and back home on 460. Maybe we can go hunting this season if you're up this way. Not much if any national forest in Bedford County. I hunt some leased land near where I live, about 10 minutes north of Fincastle.

Nice to know we're so close.

twofifty
June 13, 2014, 10:02 PM
Looked up the Fincastle/Bedford area.
You guys live in paradise.

olafhardtB
June 14, 2014, 03:25 AM
Blond Bear, I don't know about twist rate and I am to lazy to learn. I have read of 700 grain boolits in the 500. I haven't checked groups but we hit the rocks we shoot at using home made peep sights. One difference between Handy and muzzle loaders is that there is no problem using harder, stronger casting alloys in the Handirifle. This may affect skirt deformation in minies. I have thought about stacking up 50 cal round balls in a 500 S&W. I think I could load 3 hard cast balls over some fast powder.

Art Eatman
June 14, 2014, 11:23 AM
I guess maybe forty of my four-dozen tagged bucks were shot in the neck. No tracking necessary.

I shot a running buck at around 175 yards. Didn't lead him enough. Broke his spine right behind the shoulders. Lost about four inches of backstraps. But he didn't go anywhere after I shot him.

My point is that if the spine is broken, Bambi's done for the day. It hardly matters what gun is used.

short barrel
June 14, 2014, 05:40 PM
Art - I learned something there. I did not know a neck shot was a good shot. I tried it once and did not recover the buck. He would absolutely not offer me any other shot. So I put the .50 round ball through his neck. Waited awhile to take up the trail. Snow on the ground. As he fled the scene, he left spurted blood on both sides of his tracks. I just knew I had him. But a mile later, he stopped bleeding and his tracks were lost within several acres of laurel thickets.

But based on your success, I shall try it again. My bad experience must have been a fluke. Thanks

BlondeBear63
June 14, 2014, 09:07 PM
Blond Bear, I don't know about twist rate and I am to lazy to learn. I have read of 700 grain boolits in the 500. I haven't checked groups but we hit the rocks we shoot at using home made peep sights. One difference between Handy and muzzle loaders is that there is no problem using harder, stronger casting alloys in the Handirifle. This may affect skirt deformation in minies. I have thought about stacking up 50 cal round balls in a 500 S&W. I think I could load 3 hard cast balls over some fast powder.
Learning about twist, actually Gyroscopic Stablility (Sg) is easy. I created an Excel spreadsheet to do the math. Visualize the bullet as a football. Too little rotation and it wobbles all over the place. Too much, and it is always flying nose up. When it is right, it always points in the direction it is traveling. And for an object traveling at bullet speeds, well, it makes a difference.
Before passing round balls down your barrel, consider this:
Round balls are meant to be fired with almost no twist. A twist of 1:48 is considered extreme, with 1:66" being consider typical.
Round balls are patched in order to preserve their shape.
What happens to the round ball when fired in a convential barrel? It will become scored by the rifling as it begins through the barrel. Will it shear lead into the rifling as the round ball tries to achieve 57,000+ rpm (based on 1500 ft/sec velocity and 1:18.75" twist) and subsequently leave severe lead fouling for following rounds? While I am a big believer in results over scientific speculation, on this one I am thinking you will have all the accuracy of lopsided baseballs. If you do attempt this, please post the results.

BlondeBear63
June 14, 2014, 09:13 PM
Looked up the Fincastle/Bedford area.
You guys live in paradise.
Yes sir, we are.

BlondeBear63
June 14, 2014, 09:50 PM
Art - I learned something there. I did not know a neck shot was a good shot. I tried it once and did not recover the buck. He would absolutely not offer me any other shot. So I put the .50 round ball through his neck. Waited awhile to take up the trail. Snow on the ground. As he fled the scene, he left spurted blood on both sides of his tracks. I just knew I had him. But a mile later, he stopped bleeding and his tracks were lost within several acres of laurel thickets.

But based on your success, I shall try it again. My bad experience must have been a fluke. Thanks
I definitely am NOT in favor of the neck shot, but thanks to Art for his participation and suggestion. Yes, CNS disruption is, by far, the best shot all the way around. However, Short Barrel, your expereince was not a fluke. The spine of most game-sized animals is about the size of a large snake and generally moving in relationship to both the animal and ground. The only time the spine is not moving is either while at rest or during the actual act of drinking or feeding off the ground. I am a fairly good shot even when quick on the trigger, but know I am not good enough to hit a moving snake at even 50 yards. And if you miss that snake, or the main artery, you have the results you witnessed first hand. A head shot, even without brain damage, is far more damaging than the equivalent pass through of the neck. So, unless you are hunting over a food plot where the deer feel safe, ...and I really don't call that hunting.

BlondeBear63
June 14, 2014, 09:56 PM
Blonde - I was out your way today on my bike. Came of the Parkway on 43 and back home on 460. Maybe we can go hunting this season if you're up this way. Not much if any national forest in Bedford County. I hunt some leased land near where I live, about 10 minutes north of Fincastle.

Nice to know we're so close.
Alas, I am envious. I had to sell my bikes due to reasons I would rather not recollect (as always it involved a woman). Have you ever tried the run from the Peaks of Otter east to 501? During the Fall, I would not be surprised to find the Lord walking the Parkway admiring his handiwork.
I will look into why PM isn't working so we may exchange contact info. I am open to hunting together and sharing the drag outs.

PS: I believe PM should be working.

olafhardtB
June 15, 2014, 01:46 AM
Blond bear, you are talking about the soft round balls of pure lead shot out of muzzle loaders. I am talking about full caliber hard cast round balls of full caliber. Lots of people have used buck shot for pistol loads -000in 38/357 and 0 in 32. Remington used to sell 357 ammo with three 000 and two 000's in 38 special. There are foraging loads with one 0 for the 30-06. I bought a 5 pound box of 0 buckshot to load in my 32's. The loads went bang and that's about all the range report I have. If you want to buy a lot of factory made projectiles, a box of buck is one cheap way to go and lots cheaper and harder than the 32 round balls sold for muzzle loaders. Might be hard to ram down the barrel. BTW balls don't have a nose to turn up or down.

Art Eatman
June 15, 2014, 11:09 AM
The OP talked of .30-30 and .45-70. A neck or spine shot from either should drop Bambi right in his tracks. A high shoulder shot with either shouldn't hurt enough meat to worry about.

For me, the neck-shot deal came from my father: "When you shoot them in the white spot, they don't go anywhere." Okay, so that meant I had to work on the skill to be able to hit the white spot. Common sense, of course, says that you don't ALWAYS take that shot. :) Anyhow, I got pretty good at it.

buck460XVR
June 15, 2014, 01:23 PM
For me, the neck-shot deal came from my father: "When you shoot them in the white spot, they don't go anywhere." Okay, so that meant I had to work on the skill to be able to hit the white spot. Common sense, of course, says that you don't ALWAYS take that shot. :) Anyhow, I got pretty good at it.

My Grand-pa told me the same thing. That along with the adage that shooting for the "white spot" meant either a clean quick kill or a clean miss. No in-betweens and was generally reserved for meat deer that were easier to get and more plentiful. Larger bucks were generally taken with a shoulder/boiler room shot. With the 30-30 or .32 special, a high shoulder shot put them down right away. A shot behind the shoulder into the boiler room meant a 60-80 yard bloodtrail, but less of a mess inside. If one was only presented with a neck shot on a larger buck, we were taught to go for the larger portion of the neck closer to the shoulder. Even with the higher percentage shoulder/boiler room shot, one has to use common sense and good judgement.

swampcrawler
June 15, 2014, 01:58 PM
Il put in a vote for 45-70. I hunt similar situations, bad shot means wounded game running off through nasty swampy jungle looking stuff. The 45-70 impressed me. I made a less than perfect shot on both a pig and a 145 lb whitetail. They would have died from a .30 cal, but they would have ran. But both were DRT from the big boy.

BlondeBear63
June 15, 2014, 09:44 PM
My Grand-pa told me the same thing. That along with the adage that shooting for the "white spot" meant either a clean quick kill or a clean miss. No in-betweens and was generally reserved for meat deer that were easier to get and more plentiful. Larger bucks were generally taken with a shoulder/boiler room shot. With the 30-30 or .32 special, a high shoulder shot put them down right away. A shot behind the shoulder into the boiler room meant a 60-80 yard bloodtrail, but less of a mess inside. If one was only presented with a neck shot on a larger buck, we were taught to go for the larger portion of the neck closer to the shoulder. Even with the higher percentage shoulder/boiler room shot, one has to use common sense and good judgement.
Art & Buck,
Thanks for the additional history and input on the neck shot. I view this forum as a good source of information for not only myself, but others who may read it for the same reasons it was started. While I am not a proponent of the neck shot, there are too many experiences not include it in a hunter's book of knowledge. As well as the caveat to completely read any posts related to it. Thanks again for your inputs.

BlondeBear63
June 15, 2014, 09:57 PM
Il put in a vote for 45-70. I hunt similar situations, bad shot means wounded game running off through nasty swampy jungle looking stuff. The 45-70 impressed me. I made a less than perfect shot on both a pig and a 145 lb whitetail. They would have died from a .30 cal, but they would have ran. But both were DRT from the big boy.
Swamp,
Thanks for the reply. I just replaced the stock and forearm on my JM stamped gold trigger Marlin 336-W with new walnut ones with Mar-Shield ordered directly from Marlin. It is beautiful and definitely a keeper. What I am seriously beginning to question is the published energies of the 170 grain 30/30 Core-Lokt vs the 405 grain 45/70. As previously mentioned, the 30/30 has it beat all the way around. Yet, I imagine "bigger is better" and am having a heck of a time trying to figure out why this is so. Do I want a 45/70? I want almost every American made gun I handle. Am I going to give up my 30/30? Not since I put on the new stock. Can you relay to me what is happening with the 45/70 that is not going to happen, etc with the 30/30? Glad to hear of the success you're having with your Henry.
BTW, is the magazine tube of the Henry any more or less hassle, reliable than the side loading Marlin or Winchester? And how is that action? Thanks again.

BlondeBear63
June 15, 2014, 10:30 PM
Blond bear, you are talking about the soft round balls of pure lead shot out of muzzle loaders. I am talking about full caliber hard cast round balls of full caliber. Lots of people have used buck shot for pistol loads -000in 38/357 and 0 in 32. Remington used to sell 357 ammo with three 000 and two 000's in 38 special. There are foraging loads with one 0 for the 30-06. I bought a 5 pound box of 0 buckshot to load in my 32's. The loads went bang and that's about all the range report I have. If you want to buy a lot of factory made projectiles, a box of buck is one cheap way to go and lots cheaper and harder than the 32 round balls sold for muzzle loaders. Might be hard to ram down the barrel. BTW balls don't have a nose to turn up or down.
Once again olaf, you are correct. I hadn't thought of foraging rounds and didn't know Remington had sold them. During the War of Northern Aggression, troops were actually given hardwood rounds for such. Still, I imagine foraging rounds would be limited by the stresses of rifling and spinning the round to 57,000+ RPM. I would like to know your results, including accuracy and bore fouling.

BlondeBear63
June 16, 2014, 12:56 AM
Blond bear, you are talking about the soft round balls of pure lead shot out of muzzle loaders. I am talking about full caliber hard cast round balls of full caliber. Lots of people have used buck shot for pistol loads -000in 38/357 and 0 in 32. Remington used to sell 357 ammo with three 000 and two 000's in 38 special. There are foraging loads with one 0 for the 30-06. I bought a 5 pound box of 0 buckshot to load in my 32's. The loads went bang and that's about all the range report I have. If you want to buy a lot of factory made projectiles, a box of buck is one cheap way to go and lots cheaper and harder than the 32 round balls sold for muzzle loaders. Might be hard to ram down the barrel. BTW balls don't have a nose to turn up or down.
Once again olaf, you are correct, except round balls have a nose, just not in the conventional sense. I hadn't thought of foraging rounds and didn't know Remington sold them. During the War of Northern Aggression, troops were actually given hardwood rounds for such. Still, I imagine foraging rounds would be limited by the stresses of rifling and spinning the round to 57,000+ RPM. I would like to know your results, including accuracy and bore fouling.

Art Eatman
June 16, 2014, 11:22 AM
One of my uncle's tips, back when I was a kid, was for what he called a "squirrel load" for the '06. An 00 ball and five grains weight of shotgun powder. It worked quite well. :)

Same-o same-o as "foraging load", I guess. Pistol powder would work...

Any 30-caliber: "Turn your SKS into a squirrel gun!" :D

BlondeBear63
June 18, 2014, 10:21 PM
One of my uncle's tips, back when I was a kid, was for what he called a "squirrel load" for the '06. An 00 ball and five grains weight of shotgun powder. It worked quite well. :)

Same-o same-o as "foraging load", I guess. Pistol powder would work...

Any 30-caliber: "Turn your SKS into a squirrel gun!" :D
In my focus towards considering as well as understanding the means of effective game stopping I didn't properly pause to think about olaf's .500 S&W loads. Reminds me of shooting birds in the barn using .22 LR birdshot rounds (#12 shot). It is well noted the quantity of powder you mentioned is significantly less than the radical, especially by pistol standards, loads of the .500 S&W. Rabbit hunting with an AK and slidefire stock... heh heh heh heh... ;)

olafhardtB
June 19, 2014, 01:48 AM
Blond bear, to my knowledge I invented the term "foraging load". It is not a real term that I know of. I don't know much about AK's, never shot one but have been shot at with them. I have hunted rabbits in west Texas with a 10-22. Always thought it would be fun with a machine gun mounted on the back of a pickup truck. My high school science teacher had been stationed in the Aleutian Islands in WWII. He said that had a 22 machine gun that they used for practice. Thier favorite targets were migrating salmon.

BlondeBear63
June 19, 2014, 11:16 PM
Blond bear, to my knowledge I invented the term "foraging load". It is not a real term that I know of. I don't know much about AK's, never shot one but have been shot at with them. I have hunted rabbits in west Texas with a 10-22. Always thought it would be fun with a machine gun mounted on the back of a pickup truck. My high school science teacher had been stationed in the Aleutian Islands in WWII. He said that had a 22 machine gun that they used for practice. Thier favorite targets were migrating salmon.
Olaf, as I haven't access to physical material mentioning "foraging" followed directly by "round" or "load", I cannot pathologically nor forensically atest to the validity of any claims to the term. However, using the Google search engine with the aforementioned words/terms results in a plethora of results going back over 125 years.

As previously mentioned, my understanding of the "foraging round" goes back to the War of Northern Aggression when soldiers, and cooks especially, were issued round wooden balls. And it makes sense. First, muzzle loaders have relatively low twist rates around 1:66" to 1:108". The slow twist means rotational accelerations are mild. Too, as patches are used for shooting round balls, the rifling wouldn't splinter the wood by cutting into it. Another benefit of the patch is it allows almost any material for the projectile. Digressing for a moment to your mention of shooting/loading hard lead, using a patch makes it possible for almost any material. Therefore, the muzzle-loader can shoot solid carbide, diamond, etc. Wouldn't want to try that through the .500 S&W or any other cartridge based barrel. Returning to the wood foraging round, besides being used with a patch, another great benefit is not having to use a lot of powder to propel the lightweight round to velocities lethal but not destructive to small game as well as trajectories flat enough to be accurate. Too, a wood round wouldn't need a good finish, flying better (as does a golf ball) with a coarse finish.

Honestly, I believe this would be a good topic for a new forum. And I would really like to know how well the round balls hold up in your .500 S&W as well as how much barrel fouling occurs. -Blonde

olafhardtB
June 20, 2014, 12:33 AM
Blonde, we got involved here I got to thinking about 1/2 hardwood dowels and my hacksaw. Some where I also have a 1/2 aluminum rod I bought for these purposes. One of my motivations in buying the Handirifle was an article I read in an old Gun Digest where some guy in Africa was lamenting that there were no true 500 caliber rifles so he could buy 1/2 copper rod and cut it up for bullets. When the 500S&W Handi came out I rushed to get one.

BlondeBear63
June 21, 2014, 09:37 PM
Blonde, we got involved here I got to thinking about 1/2 hardwood dowels and my hacksaw. Some where I also have a 1/2 aluminum rod I bought for these purposes. One of my motivations in buying the Handirifle was an article I read in an old Gun Digest where some guy in Africa was lamenting that there were no true 500 caliber rifles so he could buy 1/2 copper rod and cut it up for bullets. When the 500S&W Handi came out I rushed to get one.
Olaf, I think, in general, no matter the type of wood it will splinter. The rifling of the bore may act like an old fashion pencil sharpener and wring the outer skin from the wood. Too, I think not only the wringing action but the explosive acceleration will yield toothpicks and a fair sized remnant.
I know there are wood rounds that have been used for training in "modern arms." They generally are used on regular arms with a threaded barrel for use with an attachment to splinter the round. My reason for mentioning this is barrel blockage. If someone handed you a loaded rifle with a stick in the barrel, would you pull the trigger? Would a splintered dowel sufficiently block the barrel as to cause "negative" consequences?
I like the idea of the rods, copper, aluminum, etc. Alas, I wish I could afford to reload and had access to a lathe. My thoughts hearken to the bottle rocket and Nerf football (with the stick, without the vanes). In every other form of flight of which I can recall, the weight is forward such as raindrops, rockets, planes, etc. Or they are equally balanced such as round balls, footballs, etc and spun to gyroscopically stabilize them. Why not add an aluminum stick to the back end of a 30-06, etc to cause the weight to be shifted forward like a bottle rocket? It isn't like there isn't enough room in the case or length to bullet. Just my 2.

olafhardtB
June 22, 2014, 01:27 AM
My dad told me one could pull the shot out of a shot gun shell and shoot arrows at fish with a crack barrel single shot. I never tried it.

CApighunter
June 22, 2014, 05:59 AM
Between the .30-30 and .45-70, I'd go with the latter. A big heavy slug breaking shoulders is a recipe for putting big animals down fast. If it was deer only, I'd go with the .30-30, but tracking wounded bears in steep, thick brush isn't my idea fun. .45-70 will put them on the ground real quick if you can break a shoulder or two.

BlondeBear63
June 23, 2014, 08:57 PM
My dad told me one could pull the shot out of a shot gun shell and shoot arrows at fish with a crack barrel single shot. I never tried it.
Some .50 caliber muzzleloading sabots could make so many fun things possible. Heh heh heh heh heh heh heh... ;)

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