A partnership for powdercoating.


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blarby
May 31, 2014, 04:22 PM
Well, at long last BDS and myself have decided to give it the 'ole THR try with powdercoating.

The tools are arriving ( most are here, parts for sizing still trickling in ) and the try in earnest should begin very soon.

We have a few choice bullets to try :

158gr GCLSWC in .358 (we'll be omitting the GC ) - designed for machine lube
175gr SWC in .401 - tumble lube
175g TC - machine lube
200g LSWC in .452 - tumble lube
230 LRN in .452 - machine lube
240g LSWC in .430 - tumble lube
240g LSWC and HP in .430 - machine lube
110, 150, and 230gr in .309 - GC, flat base, and BT respectively. Designed for machine lube except the 230- its a TL design.

We'll be using lee push-through sizers of the appropriate diameter.

We'll be PC'ing, and then sizing.

We'll be using straight WW alloy for all bullets.

And lastly, I will be using the #5 polypropylene container and .25 black airsoft BB method, using a toaster oven repurposed from my kitchen, and reynolds non-stick aluminum foil.

I'll begin with harbor freight red coating- as it's known to be a successful agent.

After initial testing using the materials and methods listed above, we'll be branching out into different methods to test their effectiveness in achieving positive results.


This is where all the results will be posted.

I'll try and get as many pictures of the process as I can, as well as some video.

Stay tuned.


This project would not be possible without BDS- both for his research, and a generous donation of new moulds and sizers for the project. Without his research and contributions, this project would not be being undertaken.


As much of the alloy after shooting and testing that can be recovered will be, and will be recast, recoated and distributed for final testing to those who have chosen to PIF to those in need in the PIF thread. That effort and alloy will be my side of the donation to make this project a success, and its final evaluation for meeting that threshold will be in the capable hands of THR's most generous members.

There are approximately 40 pounds +/- of alloy at the beginning, so there will not be millions of bullets to distribute- but everything in the testing save a small amount for personal use for myself and BDS will be redistributed, as final evaluation of the project will only then be completed.

Have a great weekend, folks !

If you enjoyed reading about "A partnership for powdercoating." here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
tyeo098
May 31, 2014, 04:51 PM
They work great in 300 AAC.
In my exp, TL designs take better to being powder coated than standard designs.

http://i.imgur.com/90mIsRol.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/bridEmhl.jpg

Havok7416
June 1, 2014, 12:16 AM
Blarby, any plans for the Hi-Tek coating down the road?

Buck13
June 1, 2014, 01:00 AM
tyeo, people are going to think you're crazy, loading lipsticks into your rifle. ;)

ArchAngelCD
June 1, 2014, 03:30 AM
Why powder coat a bullet? What does that do for you?

Kernel
June 1, 2014, 04:35 AM
It gives you all the advantages of lead, without all the disadvantages of lead. Plus, they look cool.

bds
June 1, 2014, 05:05 AM
Why powder coat a bullet? What does that do for you?
These were issues/concerns/questions we wanted to test/verify with our "partnered" project:

- Different color can be used to note different powder/charge loads (Red for slower powder/max load, yellow for faster powder/mid-range load, etc.)

- Viability of not needing to lube lead bullets and using powder coating (PC) instead

- Performance issues of PC bullets in Glock vs traditional rifled pistol barrels in terms of accuracy and leading, particularly 40S&W.

- PC/Performance comparison between tumble lube bullet design vs single channel lube bullet design

- Benefits of reduced exposure to lead when dry tumbling (DT) that coats the entire bullet vs using a PC gun that leaves the bullet base lead exposed

- Swirl/shake DT method vs plastic/Ziplock bag "massage" method for PC well as different BB color/multi-facet plastic beads factoring ambient humidity levels

- Viability of using heavier 230 gr PC bullet for .300 BLK in terms of accuracy and cost savings with anticipated cleaner gas tube

If all goes well, I am hoping for PC bullets that will reduce lead exposure, shoot cleaner without leading and cost less than jacketed bullets, especially for .300 BLK.

bds
June 1, 2014, 05:23 AM
BTW, I am going to start looking around for wheel weights in my area to contribute for the project.

If you come across some wheel weights and don't cast (or if you cast but have some to share), it would be appreciated if you can PIF to blarby to cast test bullets he will be PIF to other THR members.

Thank you in advance.

35 Whelen
June 1, 2014, 02:56 PM
Why powder coat a bullet? What does that do for you?
These are kind of my questions too.

I'm very open-minded when it comes to handloading and especially bullet casting. That being said, I don't mean to throw a turd in the punch bowl, but gee whiz powder coating seems like a time consuming PITA when traditional bullet lubing and sizing works just fine.


So school me....


35W

Havok7416
June 1, 2014, 03:24 PM
There is no smoke using powder coating, which is the main advantage of it. The bullets can also be driven faster if required.

35 Whelen
June 1, 2014, 03:39 PM
I lack 200 primers finishing a case of large pistol primers I got in about February of last year. Every single one of those 4800 rounds was fired with cast bullets and I never really noticed smoke. Anyhow, I can see the merits of higher velocity though.
35W

rsrocket1
June 1, 2014, 03:56 PM
I'm sure they will all work if done properly. My investment in PC'ing is $7 so far. $4 for the HF red and $3 for the nitrile gloves from Lowes. I've coated 800 401-175-TC and 875 356-120-TC and shot 200 of the 40 cal boolits from my M&P40 with zero fouling. All since Monday. Here's my preferred method. (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?243347-Styrafoam-containers-work-too!) I used a Styrofoam medical mailing box, but a 1 gallon Ziplock bag worked fine too. It's just that I can get over 200 boolits coated in one batch with the big box.

I've found that the real trick is getting the powder to spread evenly over the boolits. I do it this way with the nitrile glove. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xND56IIzoI) <-- You Tube video link

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj96/rsrocket1/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-05/1D3CF278-9BBE-4B90-A2A7-5E381687FC23_zpskvqiz8bp.jpg


In the dry arid central valley of Komifornistan, generating static electricity is about as easy as finding a liberal or stepping in doodoo at a dog park.

Havok7416
June 1, 2014, 04:18 PM
I lack 200 primers finishing a case of large pistol primers I got in about February of last year. Every single one of those 4800 rounds was fired with cast bullets and I never really noticed smoke. Anyhow, I can see the merits of higher velocity though.
35W
I'm not saying it happens with every powder, but I get tons of smoke from regular cast bullets. The smoke in and of itself is not a big deal, but the lube can make a mess in the barrel.

tyeo098
June 1, 2014, 04:35 PM
Powder coating is less 'rich mans lubing' and more 'poor mans jacketing'

Havok7416
June 1, 2014, 04:54 PM
Well said Tyeo!

blarby
June 1, 2014, 05:07 PM
From my standpoint- I'll be honest :

I think powdercoating is simply an "easy out" for those who cant seem to get the proven formulas of cast bullet casting/using to work for them.

With that said, I think its a lot of work in areas that don't really need it.

However, certain areas of cast bullet usage remain tricky for even experienced casters, including but not limited to :

- Performance issues of PC bullets in Glock vs traditional rifled pistol barrels in terms of accuracy and leading, particularly 40S&W.

And, high speed applications in rifle- such as 30 carbine, straight wall pistol cartridges in long arm formats, and last but not least cheaper high-volume applications for standard rifles- .308, 7mm, etc.


In terms of pistol, I think having to buy aftermarket barrels to use lead bullets isn't optimal. Some folks seem to get it to work, some folks don't- especially in higher pressure calibers like 40/10mm and 9mm.

We'll see where the data takes us.

Casting began today.


While your results look good, tyeo- if I had to finger massage every bullet I used.... I'd stop this project immediately.

High voume means just that- high volume. If this isn't faster than a traditional method that works, I won't use it in that application.

If it works in applications where traditional methods don' however- that would be a completely different situation.

Havok7416
June 1, 2014, 05:18 PM
So Blarby, why are you conducting this project then?

blarby
June 1, 2014, 05:36 PM
For reasons stated.

:D

clearcut
June 1, 2014, 05:49 PM
I got all stuff to PC but the oven I'll be using the #5 plastic and black air soft ,with HF red I'm glad to see this thread on THR .I'll be looking forward to see your results .
CC

Havok7416
June 1, 2014, 05:50 PM
Well either way I'm interested to see what you come up with. The 175 SWC .401 is an awesome design that works flawlessly in all (3) of my 10mms.

Do you plan on selling these bullets eventually? If so, I'm definitely interested.

tyeo098
June 1, 2014, 06:38 PM
Do you plan on selling these bullets eventually? If so, I'm definitely interested.

Unless Blarby has an FFL its illegal to make and sell projectiles for the same reasons its illegal to make and sell reloaded ammo.

Stupid reasons, but reasons.

Gifts are not counted though, and I have mailed a few to select persons over the years pro bono.

Havok7416
June 1, 2014, 06:56 PM
I wasn't referring to ammo, just the projectiles, which aren't illegal to sell without a license. Blarby has another thread where he is inquiring about premium bullets.

tyeo098
June 1, 2014, 07:11 PM
just the projectiles, which aren't illegal to sell without a license.
This is incorrect.

Here we go.



(a) It shall be unlawful—
(1) for any person—

(B) except a licensed importer or licensed manufacturer, to engage in the business of importing or manufacturing ammunition, or in the course of such business, to ship, transport, or receive any ammunition in interstate or foreign commerce;


and

(17)
(A) The term “ammunition” means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.

blarby
June 1, 2014, 07:29 PM
All of which I'm much aware of, but thank you.

For those who aren't clear ;

You are required to have an FFL-06 to produce and sell bullets.

You are not required to have an FFL-06 to resell bullets from a maker who has the license, or to make and use them for your personal use.

Not exactly the direction we're supposed to be going on this thread- and I'd appreciate veering back towards that course.

horsemen61
June 1, 2014, 07:32 PM
I am interested in the outcome I am about to start this myself thanks blarby

bds
June 1, 2014, 08:08 PM
Yes, we are talking about "projectiles" and not "loaded ammunition".

As to the focus of the thread, both blarby and I have been curious about powder coating of lead bullets and have read various "alternate powder coating" threads at castboolits forum.

What I have read is that different people were getting different results with different products (brand of PC powder, brand/type of plastic container, brand/color of plastic BBs or multi-facet plastic beads, etc.) and different coating methods (swirl/shake vs plastic/ziplock bag methods etc.) along with baking temp/time (20 minutes at 400F vs 10 minutes at 350-375F).

As many of you already read in different threads, some will post they have easy and great success with XYZ powder coating methods while another will post that same methods did not produce good results at all. Like the Mythbusters TV show, I was interested in testing and verifying which methods worked and which did not so as to determine a certain "standardized methods" that would produce the best results.

Since I do not cast, blarby's offer to provide that service was much appreciated "partnership" with results that will probably benefit many other THR members and guests.

Going into this project, we already have certain amount of premise that will undoubtedly be verified but it's sometimes good to confirm what you already know. I think both of our particular interest in this project is the compatibility of powder coated bullets in Glock barrels, specifically in 40S&W regards to accuracy and leading. It's my guess at this point that they are compatible and if that turns out to be the case, along with the benefit that completely encapsulates the lead bullet, it will be a win-win situation as to cheaper, clean loads that are accurate without the worry over leading.

My particular interest is .300 BLK loads with 230 gr bullet. If successful loads can be developed that are accurate and clean, then cost savings over jacketed bullets and worry over lube/lead/fouling of gas tube will be a huge plus for me.

blarby
June 2, 2014, 02:06 PM
Indeed.

Once we have a "base" process that works using the bb/#5 method, we'll branch into other areas of application.

I have all of the projectiles for the first run cast- just waiting on a few pieces of kit.

Pictures of the bullets coming tonight.

griff383
June 2, 2014, 02:18 PM
Thank you both for taking the time to go through this and post results. Im really looking forward to what your testing reveals as I am about to start gathering the stuff to do this for my 300blk.

The main reason I want to get into this (for those that care) is to shoot subs through a suppressor without leading it for a fraction of what it costs to do the same with jacketed bullets. Heavy 308 jacketed bullets are too expensive for me to plink with, but to be able take some lead boolits, powder coat, size, load, and shoot for almost a quarter of the price and Im all in.

clearcut
June 3, 2014, 02:12 AM
got a oven today PC tomorrow 1st time :)
CC

bds
June 3, 2014, 10:56 AM
As posted in other powder coating threads, some are getting good results in terms of coverage and thickness of coating (which are the primary objectives) while some others are getting poor results (thinner coating / less coverage).

Hopefully, we'll be able to demonstrate step-by-step processes that produce good repeatable results with "known" variables like:

- Brand/color of powder
- Static electricity generation (#5 plastic container, brand/color of BBs, etc.)
- Method of coating (swirl/shake, plastic/ziplock bag, nitrile glove, etc.) for 99% coverage
- Method of holding coated rifle bullets (drilled cookie sheet, wire rack, etc.)
- Tray liner for pistol bullets (non-stick aluminum foil, parchment paper, silicone, etc.)

- Ambient temperature
- Ambient humidity
- Temperature of the bullets (cold vs warm)
- Bake temperature and time (350/375/400F at 10/20/30 minutes)

- Other variables like type of alloy (wheel weights vs foundry alloy), water quenching for hardness, sizing of bullets, mould shape, etc.

bds
June 3, 2014, 11:20 AM
I am about to start gathering the stuff to do this for my 300blk.
FYI, I found the lowest price on 230 gr bullet mould (and in stock) at FS Reloading for $20.79 - https://fsreloading.com/lee-precision-tl309-230-5r-mold-90307.html

.309" sizing kit for $16.99 - https://fsreloading.com/lee-precision-bullet-lube-and-size-kit-.309-90038.html

tyeo098
June 3, 2014, 12:05 PM
I use the Lee C312-155 for my 300Blk.
Amazon has them for 20ish. 80grs less lead per round. Supersonic only though.

Oh well. I dont even have a suppressor!

bds
June 3, 2014, 12:14 PM
So have you shot them powder coated? If you have, are you getting any leading?

My thinking with the heavier 230 gr bullet is to shoot at lower velocities around 1050 fps that's already been proven to be effective with powder coating and not for suppressor use. blarby has other 30 caliber bullets so I was planning to test supersonic loads after success with subsonic loads.

clearcut
June 3, 2014, 01:16 PM
I would like to know if the black a.s. bb's have any carbon fiber in them which would cause them to make more static? If some one had an old microwave to cook them in they may spark a bit if they have carbon,just a thought.
CC

tyeo098
June 3, 2014, 01:50 PM
So have you shot them powder coated? If you have, are you getting any leading?

I was starting to get lead buildup on my standard lube loads in my gas system... so I switched to PC.

Have a bunch loaded but havent made it to the range yet.

Schwing
June 3, 2014, 03:03 PM
You guys might be interested in reading an earlier thread started by Palehorsemen:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=743224


I have powder coated thousands of hand gun bullets with great results.

bds
June 3, 2014, 11:44 PM
Thanks for the link. So 2100 fps without leading ... nice!

Although, some are adjusting their lead alloy mix ... and using gas checks.

Still, very doable for 150 gr and certainly 230 gr powder coated non-gas checked wheel weight bullets for .300 BLK.

And MOA from powder coated gas checked .223? - http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?220557-Real-Accuracy-%282-moa-or-less%29-with-Coated-Rifle-Bullets-at-1800-fps-or-greater&p=2631781&viewfull=1#post2631781

clearcut
June 4, 2014, 03:02 AM
OK pc came out great .45 cal and .30 cal all look good strait coww h2o dropped then pc'd,.30cal h2o dropped after pc .45 air cooled I'll load and let you all know how they work ie grouping.Sorry I don't know how to post pix.
CC

bds
June 4, 2014, 04:15 AM
Great, really interested in the .30 cal results.

I don't know how to post pix.
- Click the "Attachments" button (looks like a paper clip)
- "Browse" to the location of the picture on your computer
- Select the file and click "Open"
- Click the "Upload" button
- After the picture uploads, right-click on the attachment link and "copy"
- Click the "Insert Image" button and "paste" the link

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=199246&stc=1&d=1401865830

blarby
June 4, 2014, 10:03 PM
Speaking of images- my "image maker" is having fits and starts.

photos to come once it works itself out...

Did get the HF red today. Still waiting on the last shipment of sizers, and most importantly the BB's.

Kuyong_Chuin
June 6, 2014, 05:55 PM
Hey Blarby, If I don't forget again to check on it when I get back to town, how am I going to PIF you some lead for the project if I don't have an address?

Also can you ship lead in a flat rate box and if so how much weight an be put in it?

If the information I got is correct I will have a bunch of pure lead coming your way soon.

Havok7416
June 6, 2014, 06:34 PM
70 pounds is max for a large flat rate box. And yes, lead can be shipped.

blarby
June 7, 2014, 01:40 PM
Was late last night when I got home, but I tried 40, 401 tumble lube truncated cones.

Wanted to test temperature and "flow"- see what kind of coating imperfections might "fix" themselves in the curing process.

You will get some very minor flow, but not anything exceptional. Nice thing is, doesn't really matter what you do to the tips, as they never touch the bore.

Not a bad first try.

Thats a pretty nifty coating.

400 degrees for 12 minutes.

mdi
June 7, 2014, 03:27 PM
I have been PCing for several months. I dry tumble, "wet" tumble, and spray. I have had very good results in 9mm, 45 ACP, 38 Spec/.357 Mag, .314 for my MN, and .309 for my 30-30. I have some .308" 185 grain PCed bullets I'm going to try in my M1 soon. PCed bullets aren't any more labor intensive than other, traditional lubes. They are much cleaner to handle and cleaner to shoot. PCed bullets don't smoke when fired. PC won't dry out and crack/fall out of the lube grooves. Plus no leading and very little fouling. They aren't a "poor man's" nor a "rich man's" anything, they are just a different coating/method for the home/hobby ammo manufacturer. Traditional lubes work, but PCing may just work better, just like that new fangled smokeless powder may be better than black powder...

Extensive forum threads/info on PCing/Alternative Coating bullets; http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?184-Coatings-and-Alternatives

bds
June 7, 2014, 04:08 PM
blarby, looking good for the first batch!

mdi, yes - we spent a lot of time reading the various threads at the castboolits forum and I think many owe their success with powder coating to the hard work and ingenuity expressed in the threads.

Caster/reloaders helping other casters/reloaders! :D

blarby
June 7, 2014, 05:30 PM
2nd coating.

Cosmetically much better.

Not sure what that adds to functionality- or sizing.

We'll find out today.

430's are in the oven.

Gloves work far better for removal than any pronged instrument. Removes much less PC.

Steve2md
June 7, 2014, 05:38 PM
just like that new fangled smokeless powder may be better than black powder...
HERASY I SAY!!!!! hahahaha!!!

blarby
June 7, 2014, 05:57 PM
430, 240gr

These were coated the same as the 401s, with one exception- a 5' drag across my carpet for more residual static charge.

I see a marked improvement, these are a single coat. They look better than a double coat.

blarby
June 7, 2014, 05:58 PM
The cooking continues.

blarby
June 7, 2014, 06:07 PM
Sized 401, 1705gr TL

There was no shearing of the coating during sizing, and they sized very easily on the lee push through.


Already my desire to use the LLA tumble method is fading.

blarby
June 7, 2014, 06:19 PM
430, 240g 1 coat. Sized.

There was significant shearing on greater than 20% of the bullets that had only one coat during sizing, irregardless of their cosmetically appealing quality.

For this reason, 2 coats, cured independently, will be used from this point forward, until something better pops up ~

bds
June 7, 2014, 07:05 PM
... one exception- a 5' drag across my carpet for more residual static charge.
Yes, I am glad you remembered that trick to increase the static electricity.

(What blarby meant is rubbing or dragging the plastic container on the carpet.)

Havok7416
June 7, 2014, 07:11 PM
A piece of scrap carpet mounted on the bench might help instead of crawling all over the floor. Perhaps Blarby is already doing that though.

bds
June 7, 2014, 07:11 PM
Sized 401, 1705gr TL

There was no shearing of the coating during sizing, and they sized very easily on the lee push through.
Were they baked once or twice before sizing? What was the humidity level?


Already my desire to use the LLA tumble method is fading.
Old dogs learning new tricks. :D


A piece of scrap carpet mounted on the bench might help instead of crawling all over the floor.
See what I mean about networking and sharing information? That's a great idea!

Pelo801
June 7, 2014, 09:03 PM
Could you mic a a bullet pre PC and then mic same bullet post PC? I'm curious how much diameter the PC adds to the bullet.
Thanks in advance.

blarby
June 7, 2014, 09:03 PM
Were they baked once or twice before sizing? What was the humidity level?

They were baked twice before sizing.

Oddly enough, my guess for the ambient humidity in my area was correct- 50%.


Your .309's are on their second trip through the oven, BDS.

blarby
June 7, 2014, 09:19 PM
Unfortunately, someone came stomping up the stairs in the middle of that second coat curing, BDS.

about 15-20% of the .309's were ejected from the holes, and cured on their sides. I didn't interrupt the process as I wanted the ones that stayed upright to finish.

They are cooling now.

blarby
June 7, 2014, 09:21 PM
On the next batch of .401's , I am going to try a version of the "massaging" the bullets, by rolling them between my gloved fingers on the bearing surfaces as I place them on the tray.

Maybe we can get this one coat process to work better. Time will tell.

blarby
June 7, 2014, 09:41 PM
Your lipsticks....

bds
June 7, 2014, 09:47 PM
They were baked twice before sizing.

Oddly enough, my guess for the ambient humidity in my area was correct- 50%
On the next batch of .401's , I am going to try a version of the "massaging" the bullets, by rolling them between my gloved fingers on the bearing surfaces as I place them on the tray.

Maybe we can get this one coat process to work better. Time will tell.
I was going to suggest if higher humidity isn't allowing thick enough coating to try the plastic/ziplock bag method and picking out the coated bullets using gloves dipped in powder coating but looks like you already got it handled. :D

Your .309's are on their second trip through the oven, BDS.

Unfortunately, someone came stomping up the stairs in the middle of that second coat curing ... about 15-20% of the .309's were ejected from the holes, and cured on their sides. I didn't interrupt the process as I wanted the ones that stayed upright to finish.
Hey, life happens. If they size well enough, send them separately in plastic cling wrap and I will test them to see how "blem" PC bullets shoot. :D

blarby
June 7, 2014, 09:54 PM
These are the 401's that were "roll coated" or "massaged" between my fingers as I placed them on the tray.

There are a few that have extremely thin spots, but for the most part are remarkably uniform along the driving bands.


Sizing to come, we'll see.

BDS- I tried your .309's using this method. They are in the oven.


This is shaping up to be a long day !

blarby
June 7, 2014, 09:59 PM
Ok, a moment of amusement.

I'm not posting a pic of it, as someone would assuredly say I was abusing my cats.... however....

MAke a mental picture of this;

A large white and red and black cat, its entire head fully within a yogurt container full of powdercoating paint.... removes its head and yawns.

Full red, and can't tell *** is going on.

Small delay to shower the kitty........

bds
June 7, 2014, 10:02 PM
Those bullets are looking good.

So those in higher humidity areas can powder coat with success using the plastic/ziplock bag method.

Nice.

... black cat, its entire head fully within a yogurt container full of powdercoating paint ... Full red, and can't tell *** is going on
Ooops! :eek: :D

blarby
June 7, 2014, 10:13 PM
These are the 401's that were "rollcoated" only once, after sizing.

There is significantly less shearing- perhaps 5%, perhaps less.

However, they are remarkably uniform, and the parts that sheared were in areas that were noticeably thin before sizing- so I attribute that to my failure in application- not the coating itself.


In crappy news, the point down method fails again- this time, a large number apparently got too hot for too long at the point of the bullet, and the weight of the bullet ... broke itself.

Some survied, but not many.

We need another method for those- lets work on it.

bds
June 7, 2014, 10:19 PM
Could you mic a a bullet pre PC and then mic same bullet post PC? I'm curious how much diameter the PC adds to the bullet.
I think once blarby settles down on a method that produces consistently thick enough one coating, he'll probably measure the thickness of the coating.

Some have posted PC thickness at .001" - .0015" so I am curious too.

bds
June 7, 2014, 10:26 PM
These are the 401's that were "rollcoated" only once, after sizing.

There is significantly less shearing- perhaps 5%, perhaps less.

However, they are remarkably uniform, and the parts that sheared were in areas that were noticeably thin before sizing- so I attribute that to my failure in application- not the coating itself.
Wow, they are looking good for one coating. I think some using the plastic bag method posted that they "massage" the bullets with BBs and as the bullets are coated, they pick them out using nitrile gloves dipped in powder. I think powder coverage will improve with practice.


In crappy news, the point down method fails again- this time, a large number apparently got too hot for too long at the point of the bullet, and the weight of the bullet ... broke itself.

Some survied, but not many.

We need another method for those- lets work on it.
Many posted success baking Harbor Freight red powder at lower 350-375F at shorter time around 10-15 minutes (instead of 400F at 20 minutes). Perhaps, try at lower/shorter bake temp/time?

You are doing good powder coating for the first time! Hang in there. :D

bds
June 7, 2014, 10:31 PM
I know you have a lot on your "hot" plate ...

Could you water quench a batch of .309" bullets from the oven so I can do a comparison between the two?

Thanks!

blarby
June 8, 2014, 04:52 AM
I think once blarby settles down on a method that produces consistently thick enough one coating, he'll probably measure the thickness of the coating.

Last two batches of .401 have come out sized at....401, after one coat.

The double coated ones are also coming in at .401, although they are a tumble lube design. This is what I expected from a push through sizing, although I will measure them for bounce back in the morning.

Most of them dropped right at .400, although some of them dropped at .401 from the mould, after quenching.

blarby
June 8, 2014, 12:48 PM
Ok, I measured the .401's this morning. The handful I grabbed last night has popped back to .4015

I measured the .430's this morning, and they have popped back to .4305.


These bullets had lain a full week in buckets after casting. For whatever that is worth.

bds
June 8, 2014, 01:10 PM
The double coated ones are also coming in at .401, although they are a tumble lube design. This is what I expected from a push through sizing, although I will measure them for bounce back in the morning.

Most of them dropped right at .400, although some of them dropped at .401 from the mould, after quenching.
I thought water quenching would shrink the bullet but castboolits threads indicate depending on the hardness of the lead alloy, water quenching may increase bullet size. Learn something new everyday.

As long as bullets are sizing around .401" after coating/baking, they should work well?

bds
June 8, 2014, 01:15 PM
Ok, I measured the .401's this morning. The handful I grabbed last night has popped back to .4015

I measured the .430's this morning, and they have popped back to .4305.
So the sizing changed after PC baking and resizing?

If the .4015" bullets are resized now, would they stay at .401"? Chances are .4015" bullets would fit the chambers of Glock/M&P but the tighter chambers of Lone Wolf will not accomodate bullets larger than .401". A point to note but since the powder coated bullets were meant to be used with factory barrels, it may be OK in the end.

Since I don't cast, don't know much about alloy characteristics soon after being casted/heated/cooled/sized, etc.

Obviously more to powder coating and baking cast bullets than I originally thought.

blarby
June 8, 2014, 01:21 PM
Springback in sizing is something that die makers account for.

This happens all the time when people size bullets and say they are "undersized".

Apparently the PC "springsback" a little more than lead.


About the only thing I could think of if you couldn't use .4015 would be a .400 sizer... looks like you'd end up at .4005.

One thing I can say about this coating- its got some "give". Getting it to go from .4015 to .4000 is not hard at all.

Those of you who have ever measured taper crimp correctly and tried to "wish" it into spec using more pressure on the caliper know exactly what I mean.


if the .4015" bullets are resized now, would they stay at .401"

I'm not sure- but I will try. My gut says no, but this is a new material for me....anything is possible.

Some have posted PC thickness at .001" - .0015" so I am curious too.

That seems to hold, even with multiple (2) coats.

blarby
June 8, 2014, 01:22 PM
The .358's turned out real good, coat wise.

One coat, rolling the bearing surfaces.

blarby
June 8, 2014, 02:00 PM
Wow, ok, just found out something very interesting.

Apparently, humidity REALLY matters in adhesion.

Yesterday, we were at 50%. Everything looked good, minor rolling about to redistribute lube.

Today we are at 70%, and I get this :

blarby
June 8, 2014, 02:04 PM
However, a few rolls around on the carpet to pick up extra static and we get this :




A major bonus in adhesion.

bds
June 8, 2014, 02:12 PM
The .358's turned out real good, coat wise.

One coat, rolling the bearing surfaces.
Good job! Nicer looking coating, even in higher humidity environment (showing 64% today for your location?!). This is turning out to be a good test of humidity vs powder coating method that many reported challenges with. Looks like you are getting the hang of powder coating in just two days!

bds
June 8, 2014, 02:24 PM
Wow, ok, just found out something very interesting. Apparently, humidity REALLY matters in adhesion. Yesterday, we were at 50%. Everything looked good, minor rolling about to redistribute lube.

Today we are at 70%, and I get this :

< poorly coated bullets with bare lead spots >
However, a few rolls around on the carpet to pick up extra static and we get this :

< nicely coated bullets with no bare lead spots >
I need to keep this in mind as by the time I end up casting and powder coating bullets, I will be in high humidity environment.

So if you are getting poor powder adhesion, increase static electricity by rubbing container on carpet. Check. :D

bds
June 8, 2014, 02:46 PM
I'm curious how much diameter the PC adds to the bullet.
Some have posted PC thickness at .001" - .0015" so I am curious too.
That seems to hold, even with multiple (2) coats.
For those wondering if they can powder coat bullets and use without having to size, it will add .002"+ to the diameter of the bullets as cast.

I am thinking this would create a challenge of .356"-.358" as casted bullets going to .358"-.360" being able to fully chamber in factory barrels. In our case, we are worrying about .4015" sized bullets when .002"+ added to .401" will result in .403"+ sized bullets that may not even work in Glock barrels.

blarby
June 8, 2014, 03:11 PM
452, 230 "LRN"

These are once coated, and unsized.

This is my favorite bullet in 45 ACP.

I've included some of the rejects at the front there in a line, to illustrate the difficulties of PC'ing in higher humidity. I had no rejects like this yesterday.

blarby
June 8, 2014, 03:19 PM
309 110 grain spitzer.

Further illustrates the difficulties of high humidity.

I'm going to be giving these a second coat.



Given the difficulties and variations in coat density, I'm beginning to believe a second coat- although cosmetically lesser to a single coat, may be beneficial in all instances for the purposes of consistency.

bds
June 8, 2014, 03:31 PM
... difficulties of PC'ing in higher humidity. I had no rejects like this yesterday.
Good thing they can be coated again and added to the next batch to be baked.

blarby
June 8, 2014, 04:13 PM
Ok, now the last load- which was all just rebakes anyway, is out of the oven.

On to some much needed cleanup, and then on to sizing.

Reefinmike
June 8, 2014, 04:49 PM
Anyone have an idea on how powder coating holds up on 357 mag loads using h110 and 158gr slugs? I was thinking water dropping 100% WW bullets(I usually just use air cooled range scrap) and coating them 2-3 times sizing between coats. It'd be nice to not have to use xtp's for my full horse magnum loads. This new method for powder coating has opened so many windows for me. No need for tho occasional plated bullet anymore and if I can get away from having to buy jacketed, I'll never have to buy bullets again. Also this powder really goes a long way. I've used maybe 20% of a jar and I've coated over 2500 bullets so far.

blarby
June 8, 2014, 05:43 PM
Mike,

158 grain slugs for .357 mag are on the menu.

I dont have any h110 , sadly. I can get fairly close with 4227. I will provide what data I can.

bds
June 8, 2014, 05:59 PM
Can you barrel drop test some .4015" bullet dummies in your Glock?

For the powder coating test, I had planned to only use factory barrels to check the PC compatibility with Glock rifling. If the .4015" loads drop in your Glock chamber freely with a "plonk" then they should work in my Gen3 Glock barrels.

blarby
June 8, 2014, 06:23 PM
Can you barrel drop test some .4015" bullet dummies in your Glock?

Sure, once I get all of the sizing done, and bulge bust all of my 40 brass so that it can be used.

blarby
June 8, 2014, 07:46 PM
Ok, BDS- they do pass the plunk test, trying to upload a hilarious video of me trying to do it one handed....

http://s100.photobucket.com/user/blarby308/media/0608141537_zpsf11c1b0f.mp4.html

Sorry the video is sideways.... If the link does not work for you, please let me know.

And they are "level" as autoloading cartridges should, as in level with the end of the barrel as Walkalong describes in his plunk test.


OH, and in other news....something absolutely horrifying just happened:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jameslyne/2014/06/08/computer-successfully-pretends-to-be-human-www-apocalypse/

bds
June 8, 2014, 08:00 PM
LOL. They sure fully chamber with enough play to rattle in the Glock barrel.

I think we will be fine.

Good job!

blarby
June 8, 2014, 08:08 PM
And thats enough bulletwork for this weekend folks.

Time to enjoy some of this awesome weather.

Blarby out !

bds
June 8, 2014, 08:14 PM
OH, and in other news....something absolutely horrifying just happened:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jameslyne/2014/06/08/computer-successfully-pretends-to-be-human-www-apocalypse/

I don't want to hijack the thread but before we panic, let's think about this for a minute. What if the computer that passed the "Turing test" was incorporated with all available reloading database and knowledge base ... Wait, this may have already been done. For many years, we have been suspicious of rcmodel being a secret government experiment for responding so quickly with a sense of humor to various reloading questions. Perhaps rcmodel is this computer with a "humor" module ... :scrutiny: :D

OK, back to OP.

And thats enough bulletwork for this weekend folks.

Time to enjoy some of this awesome weather.
Dang and we are baking here with 105F+ heat wave! :fire:

Thanks again for all the hard work. Will look forward to the bullets for the range test next!

Kuyong_Chuin
June 8, 2014, 08:44 PM
Time to enjoy some of this awesome weather. I wish we had some awesomely good weather, nothing but thunder storms lately.

Reefinmike
June 8, 2014, 09:54 PM
Mike,

158 grain slugs for .357 mag are on the menu.

I dont have any h110 , sadly. I can get fairly close with 4227. I will provide what data I can.
Not really looking for data for the 158gr slug in a 357 case, as you stated its everywhere- in my manuals and everywhere online. more interested in peoples experience in pushing powder coated bullets to full bore magnum speeds and how the coating holds up. Ive pushed xtreme plateds with h110 with no real issue.

On a side note, I wonder how this is affecting places like xtreme and berrys? This powder coating now completely eliminates any need I'd have for plated bullets.

blarby
June 9, 2014, 12:15 AM
Not really looking for data for the 158gr slug in a 357 case

?

Anyone have an idea on how powder coating holds up on 357 mag loads using h110 and 158gr slugs?

? Confused.

Anywho.

blarby
June 9, 2014, 12:16 AM
Function test in 40/ Glock.

No bore residue at all.

7.5grs Bluedot, 1.125 OAL

Reefinmike
June 9, 2014, 12:52 AM
?



? Confused.

Anywho.
let me attempt to further clarify. not looking for load data, I know its 13-16ish gr and h110 isnt a powder you can underload.

Im asking if anyone has experience with pushing powder coated slugs to 1200-1300fps and how they hold up. are a couple coats necessary and are hard bullets/water quenching necessary. looking for how the powder coating holds up. Not how much powder to put behind the bullet. I need to find that out myself.

Steve2md
June 9, 2014, 01:23 AM
In my experience, I have run DTPC 158s with 16.7 gn of H110 without leading or PC residue with a single coat of dry tumbled HF red. Published speed for this load is 1591 fps. Starting charge is 15.0 gn.

NOTE: This is data for a JACKETED bullet

Though I have found most pc bullets to run fine at jacketed speeds, I tend to get better accuracy a little slower than max (+/- 2% )

I have run these loads with both Clip on WW boolits, and reclaimed range lead boolits. I always water quench, because for some reason, I keep denting bullets if I just drop onto a towel

bds
June 9, 2014, 01:40 AM
Im asking if anyone has experience with pushing powder coated slugs to 1200-1300fps and how they hold up.
How about 150 gr powder coated bullet pushed to 2100 fps? - http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?220557-Real-Accuracy-(2-moa-or-less)-with-Coated-Rifle-Bullets-at-1800-fps-or-greater&p=2568765&viewfull=1#post2568765

I am looking to push 230 gr .300 BLK load to around 1050 fps and 150 gr load to around 1800+ fps (many have already done this with no leading).

bds
June 9, 2014, 01:45 AM
Function test in 40/ Glock.

No bore residue at all.
Woo-hoo!

Powder coated bullets - the new "Glock friendly" bullet option. :D

blarby
June 9, 2014, 02:03 AM
Powder coated bullets - the new "Glock friendly" bullet option.

Of that, I stand convinced.

I see no further need for plated bullets.

I strongly encourage factory glock barrel users to consider powdercoating. Call me converted on this one.

Tests to continue in other areas.

That however will have to wait for next weekend- and at that, only one partial day.

Full speed ahead. Eyes open.

Reefinmike
June 9, 2014, 02:18 AM
In my experience, I have run DTPC 158s with 16.7 gn of H110 without leading or PC residue with a single coat of dry tumbled HF red. Published speed for this load is 1591 fps. Starting charge is 15.0 gn.

NOTE: This is data for a JACKETED bullet

Though I have found most pc bullets to run fine at jacketed speeds, I tend to get better accuracy a little slower than max (+/- 2% )

I have run these loads with both Clip on WW boolits, and reclaimed range lead boolits. I always water quench, because for some reason, I keep denting bullets if I just drop onto a towel
thanks for the insight steve, Ill water drop some clip on WW's and bring both one and two coaters to the range. I was leaning towards loading to the top end(15.5-16.5gr) as I had a whole bunch of unburnt powder when loading starting loads with xtp's a year back.

Blarby- Ive had my g41 for a couple months now, a couple thousand rounds of 230gr alox tumble lubed down the bore and I gotta say, Im having a hard time getting the thing to lead up. Some old loads I had set aside that leaded up my tisas 1911 wouldnt leave a spec of lead in the block barrel... even after 300rds. IME, the larger the bullet, the harder it is to get a good tumble powder coat on them. For good results, I can tumble up to 60 105gr 38/380 bullets, 15 158gr 38 bullets or just 10 230gr 45's at a time. Ill keep with the icky sticky alox for my 45's, but im really liking the efficiency/accuracy using the 105gr PCLRN boolits. Sure they shoot about 6" lower than a 158gr at 15yd, but I can stretch my lead a good bit further, the recoil is equal to a 158gr, and they group very very well. That being said, this whole new powder coating thing has opened up the window of 9mm and 40 for me. Ive never considered buying one of either because Id shoot myself broke using plated bullets to avoid the leading. I still collect the brass regardless :D

GLOOB
June 9, 2014, 04:02 AM
I wonder has anyone has thoroughly investigated the possible abrasiveness of PC?

Metal oxides are very commonly used as the pigmentation in paints. And many of them are hard enough to at least polish the bore.

Just a thought.

bds
June 9, 2014, 04:30 AM
This concern was brought up in other threads but my browsing of various powder coating/alternate powder coating threads at castboolits forum did not result in anything definite that indicated/measured actual bore wear (and many have already shot thousands of rounds of powder coated bullets in their barrels).

I planned to shoot powder coated bullets in factory Glock barrels which are surface hardened but since I have several Lone Wolf barrels (stainless steel barrels without surface hardening) that have been slugged to known bore and groove diameters, I thought about doing a wear test to see if I could measure the effects of any abrasives in the powder coating.

Stay tuned.


Update: OK, found a thread that discussed barrel wear from powder coated bullets but without any definite conclusions - http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?233305-Abrasiveness-of-PC-bullets


According to Harbor Freight MSDS, Calcite is listed for black and Titanium dioxide for red/yellow/white - http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?233305-Abrasiveness-of-PC-bullets&p=2673839&viewfull=1#post2673839


My guess is that casters/reloaders have been shooting powder coated bullets of various brand/colors for a few years now and many have several thousands of rounds shot in the same barrel. If barrel wear was evident, it should have started to affect shot group size and accuracy but we have not seen either problems posted in various forum threads.

Kuyong_Chuin
June 17, 2014, 04:41 PM
Anything new to report?

blarby
June 17, 2014, 05:00 PM
Not yet- its been a crazy weeknchange !

Should have some 44 testing done tomorrow.

Kuyong_Chuin
June 17, 2014, 06:46 PM
Not yet- its been a crazy weeknchange !

Should have some 44 testing done tomorrow.
Thanks keep us up to date please.

blarby
June 19, 2014, 02:07 PM
Ok, some new stuff to report from yesterdays range outing :

Shot 90 of the .401 Tumble lubes through my glock23 without incident. Some of these were a little...warm... and you could smell the PC cooking, but no residue. I think I'll stay with the 8grs of BlueDot- very accurate load, and a doublecharge would certainly be very noticeable !

One thing I have found is that some of the rounds do have a protrusion of PC at the crimp line, but it does not seem to impair function. I saved an entire magazine of these to fire last, and they all fired flawlessly. I will try and get a pic of this occurence this weekend.


Got to fire my first 240g TLSWC's out of my ruger superblackhawk as well.

Since I know the strength of this gun, I was able to make some extremely warm loads (1450+fps)using the very last of my H110 and they produced zero fouling.
I also shot all of the 8gr unique loads that are my common load for this gun that I brought with me- and although the barrel had clearly been fired from the powder residue, there was not a trace of lead.
I'd like to note on this one that my 8 gr unique load using LLA also produces no leading using a water dropped wheel-weight bullet, however.

This weekend I'll be making more ammo, and be preparing for an in-law visit, so updates will be ...thin.... up until probably the first weekend in July.

clearcut
June 20, 2014, 02:56 AM
I shot my 7.65 x53 mouser w/red hf pc @2200+- fps no lead at all.
CC

blarby
June 29, 2014, 07:14 PM
Not much to add this week, unfortunately.

Car repairs. Takes all the time out of life....

In any event, I am getting around to the .357 mag testing.... soon.

We'll be using the 158g LSWC's sized to .358. For initial testing I'll be using 4.5 grains of unique at a COAL of 1.585 to correspond to the crimp groove.

Something that popped up again on this one that is worth noting :

Much like with plated bullets, make sure and leave yourself some extra "flare" in the expanding step. PC shaves just like anything else.

blarby
June 29, 2014, 11:02 PM
New camera.

Testing for viewability

GLOOB
June 30, 2014, 05:45 AM
Looks good.

Eagerly awaiting some reports with rifle bullets doing stuff that can't be done with cast. Some of us have no problem shooting tumble lubed pistol bullets!

blarby
July 8, 2014, 05:29 PM
Eagerly awaiting some reports with rifle bullets doing stuff that can't be done with cast.

Ask and ye shall receive.....


150g PC Spitzer
.308 Winchester out of a Ruger II Target rifle
42.0 H4895 ( didn't have my chrony this weekend, sadly. Math says 2600 FPS+ from a standard length BBL, mine is a target length)

These were.... erratic, in that I couldn't get a group to hold under 3" at 100 yards. This rifle, however, also has a penchant for 180 grain bullets cooked REALLY hot.

I will add that the slugs were not hardened after oven cooking the PC on, and they had some significant weight variation- this "150" ran 153+ on each bullet, and they were not what I would call remarkably uniform in weight.

However there was zero barrel fouling.


My next test on these is going to be in the VEPR belonging to the Mrs., now that I know they shouldn't cause too much issue.

Safetychain
July 9, 2014, 05:04 PM
I've been following this thread for over a month now. It really looks like it is the new way to shoot lead. I really appreciate the time and effort of this partnership. I know that the testing is not finished yet but I'm getting the itch. My immediate interest would be for what I have molds for, .45 230 gr and .30-30 250 gr. for a gas check though I've been looking at 380ACP, 9mm, .40 & .44. I've been on the road since this thread was started, otherwise I would have been testing this method myself.

Can you take a little time and summarize your results so far? It is a little difficult for me to keep track of who is commenting vs testing to get a clear answer to some of the pertinent points. Have you come up with any kind of speed limit where the coating fails, with & w/o gas checks? It appears that you are using a sizer before and after coating? My lubrisizer looks like it would shear any coating off. Would there be a problem sizing a cast boollit and then coating and using at the increased diameter or would it be necessary to get a smaller sizer? How about my 30-30 boollit with the gas check left off? Are you quenching powder coated bullets?

With the outrageous expense of 30-30 jacketed bullets, I am looking for a way to go lead with the other 4-5 calibers of handgun and rifle bullets that I shoot and more easily avoid leading problems. I have the itch but will be on the road for another 2 months so there is no hurry. I'm sure that upon completion, there will be a thorough "PCWWWD" Powder Coating, What Works, What Doesn't treatise on the subject. I am looking forward to this. I purchased a couple of thousand Precision Bullets with a coating of some sort to try when I get home.

VenomBallistics
July 9, 2014, 11:01 PM
my, how the years have passed by:eek:
I didn't even know I had joined this site.
anywho, I was referred to this thread from elsewhere.
Now, don't take my advise as flaming in any way. I respect the work and research being done here as your exploring methods that open the door to all who dare try, at least in as much as to test drive powder coated heavy metal supplements.

If you really want to get serious, you need an electrostatic spray gun.
As luck would have it, Harbor Freight has them on sale right now, for about $65
Trust me, it'll lay powder thicker and faster than trying to reinvent the vandegraf generator with gladware on the living room carpet.

I just got one last week, and have played around with this enough to throw ya some of my early findings.
with the ES gun, it is the one coat and your done holy grail you seek.
The gun comes with 3 tips .. the smallest seems to be the one for the job.
Its rated for 10 - 30 PSI .. 12 to 15 has been nearly ideal for me, yours may vary.
However, your coating rack must be able to go directly to the oven without having to handle the bullets. you'll only knock the powder off.
Parchment paper is your friend.
a sheet of parchment paper on your spraying / baking plate, keeps things reasonably clean.
while you'd expect the parchment to be non conductive, the 10kV operating voltage of the ES gun will overcome the dielectric and charge the pills sitting on top.
This works fairly well for flat points.
Base down seems to result in all the pills releasing from the plate in a sheet of powder coat over spray. Sizing seems to deal with the flash to a great degree.
The best show in town is the hollow point.
drill holes in a coating plate and either weld nails or drive screws through it to place the bullets on ... no flash issues there.
however, do try to keep the spikes as straight as possible so that parchment paper can be impaled and run down to keep the plate reasonably clean.
a lot of work goes into making such a plate. only makes sense to try to preserve it.
http://venomballistics.com/vbl/rounds1.jpg
http://venomballistics.com/vbl/target1.jpg

blarby
July 10, 2014, 02:17 PM
See BDS, we shoulda got the gun :D


It will require two passes for top and bottom coating to prevent direct lead exposure to the end user from the projectiles, but since we've basically decided two coats are going to be required anyway.....

Thanks for your input, Venom.

When I have space to accomodate an air compressor and the related accoutrements (including a spray area), we'll give this a dazzle.

VenomBallistics
July 10, 2014, 03:01 PM
well .. with my post count of 12 after this, your the one who'll have to prove it, as my credibility is still in the mail.

The gun can do it in one coat, with the result being like the 45 auto "red ball express" in the pic.
the lead dot on the nose kinda has a certain charm about it if you ask me.
but your correct about two coats for total encapsulation ... if you truly require it.

The way I see it, while the ES gun methods are best, they can be a little spendy for those who just want to take it for a test drive. Therefore the non ES methods do require a solid, and well established road map to a reasonable result before they throw money at equipment they don't yet know they need:D

bds
July 10, 2014, 03:09 PM
See [Insert favorite name here :D], we shoulda got the gun
Now you have done it! Now the whole gun forum will know my name ... just don't start calling me Mr. Doe. ;) :D

Yes about the gun but we already knew that. I thought the point of this project was to explore the "alternative" powder coating methods to provide 95%+ coverage which one-shot gun application would not provide.

If you are looking at 2 spray/bake process, I think 2 full coatings of tumble coating would be my choice still to provide complete sealing of lead surfaces.

I guess we could always do a side-by-side comparison ...

VenomBallistics
July 10, 2014, 03:30 PM
The alternative methods are not without merit. and should be developed as much as possible. Its the entry point for the common man.

ultimately, the alternative will be dropped in favor of ES guns after the alternatives have proven it's worth.

I PC'ed about 50 pounds of bullets in about 4 hours ... mostly screwing around refining the ES gun methods ... you can't ignore that:what:

VenomBallistics
July 10, 2014, 04:38 PM
well I took a peek inside my ES guns power unit.
dayam these things are actually pretty simple ... switched flyback.
and thats about all Im saying, because if someone needs to ask what that is, they have no business playing with it.
so much for DIY plate charging.

But still wanting to give ideas to the cause, I recall a powder coating product for fishing jigs. You simply got the jig head hot and dipped it in the powder which caused it to adhere .... heated again to flow it smooth.

I wonder if one could not preheat a rack of uncoated pills and do a little stuff hits the fan in a closed box kinda thing to help this adhesion thing along?

I should probably stress the closed box point ... divorce can be a costly affair.


heck .. if it works at all ... the speed might put it on par with the spray gun

blarby
July 10, 2014, 09:07 PM
Now you have done it! Now the whole gun forum will know my name

Dangit- You're one of like a brajillion people on this forum with the same name, and it slipped.

My apologies ! Its been edited out though, so we can do some creative editing-forward.


es about the gun but we already knew that. I thought the point of this project was to explore the "alternative" powder coating methods to provide 95%+ coverage which one-shot gun application would not provide.

It was, I was just ribbing you about the dang gun again :D

Not that I really have room for more kit at this point... or time ! Time ! its summer, and suddenly I have ZERO time.

GLOOB
July 10, 2014, 09:28 PM
150g PC Spitzer
.308 Winchester out of a Ruger II Target rifle
42.0 H4895
...there was zero barrel fouling.
So I am guessing these are gas checked? If not, that is pretty impressive. If they are gas checked, I wonder if you have shot a similar load without the PC?

My gas checked cast rifle bullets will start to "lose weight" when pushed too hard, resulting in poor accuracy and a silvery flash hider. But there is still zero barrel fouling - at least after shooting up the one test batch. It's not like I make up a bunch if the load isn't accurate.

bds
July 10, 2014, 09:40 PM
its summer, and suddenly I have ZERO time.
And I have the time but it's 106 F outside!!! :fire:

I say you are still better off than me. :D

If you don't mind seeing bare lead top of truncated cone bullets like for your 40S&W Glock, ES gun would be fine to use for 1 coat.

Schwing
July 10, 2014, 09:44 PM
And I have the time but it's 106 F outside!!

Free powder coating oven? :)

bds
July 10, 2014, 09:46 PM
No, I am afraid just baked reloader and lonely bullets ... :(

VenomBallistics
July 11, 2014, 12:42 PM
kinda like recent work on 45-70 loads.
not the kind of rifle you want to shoot in extended sessions wearing only a T shirt ... not the kind of weather for wearing a jacket

VenomBallistics
July 11, 2014, 09:01 PM
Yes about the gun but we already knew that. I thought the point of this project was to explore the "alternative" powder coating methods to provide 95%+ coverage which one-shot gun application would not provide.



I think I have a way around that.
So..... I made a YouTube video to demonstrate the method to achieve total encapsulation with the one shot es method.
http://youtu.be/8NotmeYCPpg

dunno556
July 11, 2014, 09:04 PM
Just finished reading the whole thing. Looks like a very worth while endeavor / yet another project.

Not to mention having cool/color coded bullets :p

Thanks for showing the way.

bds
July 12, 2014, 12:15 AM
I made a YouTube video to demonstrate the method to achieve total encapsulation with the one shot es method.

http://youtu.be/8NotmeYCPpg

ROFL! :D

I was expecting the bare lead top to magically transform into a coated bullet but wasn't ready for the ending!

Thanks for the laugh!

Jesse Heywood
July 12, 2014, 01:10 AM
I was expecting the bare lead top to magically transform into a coated bullet but wasn't ready for the ending!

OMG! They fixed Kenny! :D

VenomBallistics
July 12, 2014, 01:11 AM
Cracked me stupid thinking it up

blarby
July 12, 2014, 02:04 PM
Cute. And I lked it, don't get me wrong.

Still won't help reduce lead contamination by the end user though.

While not the holy grail, PC'ing has the potential to reduce lead contamination by the end user considerably.

While the creators of the bullets themselves will not enjoy this benefit, the end users (if not the creator) should enjoy significantly reduced lead exposure when loading and shooting these bullets.

bds
July 12, 2014, 02:29 PM
When my lead level went from 8 to 12, my doctor got concerned and did all sorts of OSHA reporting to work, public health, etc. I not only had my family members tested but tested the reloading room, bench, brass processing/tumbling area, etc.

Looks like my main source of lead came from shooting at indoor ranges breathing in all those wonderful lead dust off the floor and now I wear 3M respirator with 2097 filter when handling unprocessed range brass and shoot mostly at outdoor ranges (I thought about wearing respirator at the indoor range but didn't want to alarm other shooters) - http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?mwsId=SSSSSuH8gc7nZxtUnx_e5vTSevUqe17zHvTSevTSeSSSSSS--

My interest in powder coating with blarby's help partly stemmed from reducing my exposure to lead, which I think we should all be aware of. When I suggested to blarby that I was planning to shoot lead .300 BLK loads, he was concerned about lead particles/vapor that may generate from the gas system and interest for testing powder coated .300 BLK bullets started while blarby was interested in testing powder coated bullets for his pistols/rifles.

I think powder coated lead bullets hold real promise for my retirement and even thought about ordering commercial bullets without sizing/lube but I am planning to cast bullets to a certain extent with properly ventilated workshop/casting area.

VenomBallistics
July 12, 2014, 05:34 PM
Sure it does blarby.
the tip of the slug sees neither bore contact nor the high temperature high pressure combustion of the powder charge. Any paint will do here, if any is deemed necessary at all
The firing related exposure is mitigated by the pc layer whether we seal the tip or not.
Base and shank coverage are the highest priority.
Don't over complicate any one shot and done method.
This labor savings opens it up to more people.

I'd also have to say that pc'ed bullets have a great deal of lead exposure reduction.
My primary test rifle is a BOSS A bolt. The adjustable muzzle brake is a telltale indicator of airborne lead.
Straight cast lead results in a flat gray brake.
Pc'ed, it's just normal gsr.
Even if some remains, the clear fact that it was reduced to invisible levels is a strong indication of drastic reduction.

dunno556
July 13, 2014, 07:58 PM
hey bds, just wanted to say that a 12 for your lead count is really not a huge deal.
I worked at a battery manufacturer for a number of years and my level was always 10 - 15 , we got tested regularly.
A respirator, at that time, was only required at a reading of 40.

I wouldn't be overly concerned, especially if your not planning on expanding the family ;)

bds
July 13, 2014, 08:16 PM
I thought the same but the thing was that after the first test of 8, I used extra precautions of wearing the 3M respirator when processing range brass and thought I would see a lower lead level on the next visit.

My doctor and I were both surprised when the level increased to 12, even with the precautions I took. She asked, "What did you do?" and when I told her I had done a lot of load development range tests at the indoor range and shot almost on a weekly basis, and on some weekends several times. She told me to stop shooting at the indoor range until the following lead test. :mad: Well, I told her since it was approaching summer heat, it was too hot for me to shoot at outdoor ranges also.

But I agreed to not shoot until the next lab test so I have been doing other things (yes, I am being careful and using gloves, respirator, etc.). So when blarby's interest in powder coating increased, I told him, "Well, funny thing happened at the doctor's office." :D I think we both agree powder coating has merits for reducing exposure to lead.

VenomBallistics
July 13, 2014, 09:53 PM
I'm one to question the numbers.
They have been established on an average which represents "normal" rather than what really is hazardous.

That being what it is, watching the delta holds more meaning than the numbers themselves.
4 points represents a 50% spike in this case. And should have your attention, though you still remain in the low side of the normal range.
That 4 points means you're absorbing it faster than you can get rid of it.

As an aside, primers are made from lead styphnate. That will be the one fly in the ointment we can never strain out.
Since I have drifted off into primer composition, they also contain ground glass.
A few yards back, someone mentioned abrasion of powder coating. I'd think that the glass would skew the research results.

dunno556
July 13, 2014, 10:13 PM
Oh yeah, I get it bds. Just kinda sounded like you might be thinking it was a lot worse than it is. Didn't want ya freaking out about it ;)

Definitely sounds like the indoor range is not a good thing :(
Perhaps their ventilation system isn't up to snuff?
I don't know anything about indoor ranges really. But I would think they would have some sort of filter system which if not maintained proper would cause levels to jump rather quickly.

Working off old memory cells, I believe most people have around a 4 - 6 level without being purposely exposed to lead.

I know I was tested before starting to work. And for some dumb reason I thought it would be zero for that first test. I don't recall, around 15 yrs ago. But it was a single digit.

I'm liking all this testing you guys are doing.
I'm looking at getting a 300 blk upper in the near future.
If I can cast boolits and put a decent push behind them without hogging up the barrel.
I'm all in ;)

bds
July 13, 2014, 11:06 PM
According to this 4/25/14 CDC report on indoor ranges and elevated blood lead levels, there likely is a link and CDC recommends blood lead levels below 10 for adults and below 5 for children/pregnant women - http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6316a3.htm?s_cid=mm6316a3_w
... this report document serious lead exposure from indoor firing ranges ... BLLs should be kept below 10 g/dL for all adults, and below 5 g/dL for children and pregnant women.

The findings in this report also suggest that firing range customers and family members of firing range employees, in addition to employees themselves, can be exposed to hazardous amounts of lead. There are an estimated 19 million active target shooters in the United States.

... The number of persons with elevated BLLs from firearms use during 2011–2012 highlights the need to increase prevention activities. Airborne and surface lead levels in firing ranges can be greatly reduced by using lead-free bullets, improving ventilation systems, using wet mopping or HEPA vacuuming instead of dry sweeping, and having a written protocol for range maintenance.

Since there already exists a thread that discusses blood lead levels and lead exposure, I will close my comments regarding my lead issues so as to not detract from the primary focus of the thread which is the successful powder coating of lead bullets, even in high humidity environment. If you want to read more on the lead issue, here's the link to the discussion thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=307170


OK back to OP.

As to .300 BLK with 230 gr bullets blarby powder coated, I was finally able to pick up some Accurate 1680 I had been looking for at the last gun show and have H4198 and W296/H110 on hand. Since there are many identified subsonic loads successfully tested with 230 gr lead bullets with pistol length gas tube (which I have) that cycled and locked the bolt back after the last round, I am confident I will be able to develop a successful load for my 16" upper.

Since there are many reports of powder coated lead bullets shot beyond 2100 fps without leading, I do not anticipate any leading issues with my 230 gr loads which will be pushed around 1050 fps. If things go well, I have plans to test 150 gr bullets in the future.

VenomBallistics
July 14, 2014, 12:02 AM
I'm looking at it for maximum performance.
I've tried since the early 90s to get a cast slug up to a confident field round.
I've wrapped them in Teflon plumbing tape, sprayed them with polyurethane finish, attempted electroplating, more lube formulations than any man could or should remember, even resorting to fiber wads stuck to the base of gas checks to strangle more out of it.
I never got much past an extra 50 fps for all the trouble.
PC didn't seem much different than anything I tried before.
From the first string of test loads out of a 30-06 , I was shocked to see that it delivered the goods.
My path is to see how much of these goods it has to deliver,and develop a few things around this delightful advance.

VenomBallistics
July 14, 2014, 04:49 PM
Been in the venom labs again, and I present to you a sweet finding in powder application.

Preheat the bullets prior to giving them the magic dust.
While not entirely necessary for the electrostatic methods I employ, this should be adaptable to tumble methods.

I populated the rack and baked them in the sleazy bake for 10 minutes at 350 degrees.
immediately after removal I transfered them to the coating station and sprayed with harbor freight yellow.
The powder was melting to the surface on contact which provided a head start on building of the coating.
The resulting single coat is rather thick, perhaps even overkill for my needs and methods.

Perhaps use of airgun bb's in a rotating metal container could be a viable option.

VenomBallistics
July 19, 2014, 12:26 PM
http://venomballistics.com/vbl/vmt1.jpg
I return from the alter of man, (lathe) to bring you some cast bullet porn to feed your ballistic lust.
30 cal. 110g hp

dunno556
July 19, 2014, 05:27 PM
Gonna try and pitch in with some 9mm.
I already have a tumbler, (wet).

So...
Went to HF and got a jug of red - $5.82
Went to Lowe's got an empty gallon paint can - $5.28 :what:
Also got a 10 pack of Blue Hawk nitrile gloves - $3.16
Wally World for a jug of the hard air soft BB's - $15.87
I have a brand new, 10 yr old toaster oven I can finally get out of the box, (priceless).
Total - $30.13

Also picked up a box of 7.62 x 39 winchester reloadables cuz they were there. No .22LR of course :rolleyes:

I'm gonna make up some 115g CWWSWC and work them up to my 115g XTP loads which are pushed with 6.5g AA#5, which I'm nearly out of :(
I also have some Titegroup & Bullseye that I can use as well.

I'll be pushing them out of a Springfield XD
I read somewhere on CB about trying the air soft pellets instead of BB's so I thought I'd go that route.

I'll also be doing the preheat, then tumble method that Venom mentioned since no one has posted anytrhing for that method ;)

Probably won't get started till the end of the week or beginning of next week as I have a few other things to get done right now.

I was noticing that it seems there is an accuracy loss with PC'd GC rifle bullets when reading different threads about PCing. Perhaps a custom mold with a flat base would be the way to go.

I have the knowledge to make a mold but no equipment to do so. And no spare $$$ to buy one right now.
I was "thinking", since it's a custom mold anyway.
Would it be better to under size it .001 to allow for the PC coat and then size after PC to the proper size to allow a nice coat of PC to remain ?
Also, don't really need the lube grooves. So that makes it easier to DIY a mold for those who have access to a lathe.

Any thoughts on the mold ?

bds
July 19, 2014, 06:38 PM
I was noticing that it seems there is an accuracy loss with PC'd GC rifle bullets when reading different threads about PCing. Perhaps a custom mold with a flat base would be the way to go.
I am planning to drill out the Lee bullet molds (like the 230 gr .300 BLK (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/938614/lee-2-cavity-bullet-mold-tl309-230-5r-30-caliber-309-diameter-230-grain-300-aac-blackout-tumble-lube-5-ogive-radius)) to get flat based bullets.

Would it be better to under size it .001 to allow for the PC coat and then size after PC to the proper size to allow a nice coat of PC to remain?
blarby powder coated lead bullets as they dropped from the molds then sized them without issues.

VenomBallistics
July 19, 2014, 06:46 PM
Lots of thoughts on molds.
I punched the 110g at .308 leaving 001 for pc to 309 post sizing.
It seems to work out just fine.
Bear in mind that I run with electrostatic application, versus tumble.
One of my coats is worth two or three of yours.
What I really think will help everyone out is figuring out how to apply powder to a preheated batch of bullets.
It has the effect of melting the powder to the slug for a serious build in a single coat.
For me, that means cook the rack for 5 minutes, hook it up and spray.
tumble methods will need a way of keeping them from sticking together.

clearcut
July 19, 2014, 08:05 PM
Heating them in the Cali sun for a bit seems to help with the tumble method,thicker coat.
CC

dunno556
July 19, 2014, 09:24 PM
I was wondering about them sticking together in the hot tumble method. I'm hoping the BB's will do the job. But I'm thinking the heavier pb will settle to the bottom.

Probably try a small/several baffles to get them to mix inside a paint can. Pretty sure the smooth sides will be like a spinning tire in mud :(
Maybe some glue sticks, sliced in half, screwed/glued to the sides? Just enough to give them a bump.

Maybe I can rig up a towel to rub the can as it spins for a little static charge as well.

One nice thing, I can always melt them down and try again.
Unless they're stuck together I'm thinking they'll be shootable though.

And no matter what. It's a very good excuse to make another trip to the range :D

Are you using any BB's or just the boolits and the PC powder when you tumble CC?

VenomBallistics
July 19, 2014, 10:58 PM
I seem to recall something like a silicone baking sheet.
Sift some magic bullet dust out on that and give them a roll perhaps

dunno556
July 20, 2014, 11:33 AM
That's with cold rolling though correct?
Once I get rolling, no pun intended, I'll try them hot. Till they're not hot anymore.
With & without BB's just so we can say we tried it.

Hopefully I can at the very least have some PC'd by the end of the week.

VenomBallistics
July 20, 2014, 03:56 PM
Should be quicker than that, unless you're coating a 38 up to 45.
I am kinda throwing out plausible ideas. There's no way I could try everything.
Silicone and RTV are kinda interesting materials. They can take 600 degrees without issue.
Stands to reason that it would handle 300 to 400 degree bullets being rolled on it.
If that works out, powder selection gets less limited for non es methods. Thus, it's worth a shot.
I think it was at all powder paints online that I tripped across some Teflon powder.
I know I can use it, just a, matter of making it useful for everyone.

VenomBallistics
July 22, 2014, 05:36 PM
Annoying lab note No. 48 ....
wetting bullets prior to tumble coating does not work.
if it crossed your mind .. Ill save ya the time.

Annoying thought of the day No.23 ...
just what are we going to do with our traditional lubes?

dunno556
July 22, 2014, 05:56 PM
Originally Posted by bds
I am planning to drill out the Lee bullet molds (like the 230 gr .300 BLK) to get flat based bullets.

Get anywhere on that yet?

Had a little difficulty with the 115g mold, (6 cavity). But I finally dropped about a 100 or so.
Separated them by weight as well. Some dropped 7.1gr, (109.57g), some 7.2gr, (111.11g). Don't have a scale that will do grains yet. Powder scale stops at 109g :rolleyes:
The weight is after sizing. NO lube was used.

Still working on other things atm so I have not put the rumble strips in the paint can yet.

So far this is how I'm going to proceed, unless someone can throw in another variable for me to try.

I'll run half of each of the two different weight bullets, (7.1gr/7.2gr), meaning roughly, 4 batches of 25 boolits.

Two will have a short tumble, time to be determined visually as it's being done, after preheating.

The second two, I'll tumble till the PC is dry. As in won't come off by touching it.
Unless the first batch is a dismal failure. No point repeating it.

Basically, I want to see if I can do a set and forget tumble with method #2.
Turn it on and walk away/set a timer.
As long as they have a decent coat on them and they don't come out in a fused lump. I'll put a check in the win column.

I haven't read anything about that so far. If anyone else has can I get a short synopsis or better yet a link ?

Originally Posted by VenomBallistics
Should be quicker than that, unless you're coating a 38 up to 45.

I was referring to when I can actually get around to PCing them. Not how long it would take to PC them.

Originally Posted by VenomBallistics
Silicone and RTV are kinda interesting materials. They can take 600 degrees without issue.
Stands to reason that it would handle 300 to 400 degree bullets being rolled on it.[
Are you saying to use RTV to make the speed bumps inside the can or to kinda coat the inside of the can with it to aid in the tumbling?

Also, does anyone know if the PC will stick to rubber or RTV or silicone.
The wet tumbler has a nice rubber coating in it and has a hex shape so no speed bumps would be needed. Just don't want to ruin the barrel. Bout a buck 50 to replace that.

I can get a smaller barrel with a 3lb capacity for about $40.
Have to check the dimensions on that though. Not sure it will fit on my existing unit. Might be too small. Of course that just makes it more of a challenge ;)


::EDIT::
Originally Posted by VenomBallistics
Annoying thought of the day No.23 ...
just what are we going to do with our traditional lubes?

We can always sell it to the nay sayers. There will always be some. Even in the face of success :D

VenomBallistics
July 22, 2014, 06:08 PM
elsewhere ... we've been offering our stocks of lube to one such nay sayer ... he fell silent and we moved on to trying to figure out new and interesting ways to use it .... that might not end well

Schwing
July 22, 2014, 07:47 PM
I thought the same but the thing was that after the first test of 8, I used extra precautions of wearing the 3M respirator when processing range brass and thought I would see a lower lead level on the next visit.

My doctor and I were both surprised when the level increased to 12, even with the precautions I took. She asked, "What did you do?" and when I told her I had done a lot of load development range tests at the indoor range and shot almost on a weekly basis, and on some weekends several times. She told me to stop shooting at the indoor range until the following lead test. :mad: Well, I told her since it was approaching summer heat, it was too hot for me to shoot at outdoor ranges also.

But I agreed to not shoot until the next lab test so I have been doing other things (yes, I am being careful and using gloves, respirator, etc.). So when blarby's interest in powder coating increased, I told him, "Well, funny thing happened at the doctor's office." :D I think we both agree powder coating has merits for reducing exposure to lead.
I had a scare a little over a year ago when mine jumped to 32. My doctor was not very concerned he just said to lay off the lead for a few months and be more careful. I think mine was from tumbling both brass and finished rounds in my office and a lot of indoor shooting. I also spent about 4 hours a week at my outdoor range.

I bought one of those 3m masks for indoors and tumble outside now. I have not been back for a retest in almost a year but, after only about 2 months with the mask and precautions, I was down to 21. I am glad you posted this because I am about to call my doc for the test I was supposed to have last year:)

VenomBallistics
July 23, 2014, 01:51 PM
while off topic, this does illustrate an issue.
one Doc says 12 is the end of the world, another meets 32 without much more than a raised eyebrow.
they DO know what normal levels are, and we all know the ideal level is zero, but it seems there's no real definition of dangerous levels.
The CDC seems to run an anti gun bias in many of the reports where it can be employed. The AMA seems a little more neutral but still runs with CDC data without question.
we may very well invent a whole new sporting arm system before they ever sort this out.

Even within medical circles, there are more than enough contradictions pertaining to the issue to call the facts opinions.

For example, this is taken from the U.S. National Library of Medicine
From the National Institutes of Health

Normal Results

Adults:

Less than 20 micrograms/dL of lead in the blood

Children:

Less than 10 micrograms/dL of lead in the blood

Note: dL = deciliter

Normal value ranges may vary slightly among different laboratories. Talk to your doctor about the meaning of your specific test results.

The examples above show the common measurements for results for these tests. Some laboratories use different measurements or may test different specimens.

Meanwhile, these are taken from New York Department of Health.
( note the shift placing the pediatric norm into the adult norm)
(Also note that NY misspelled occurring as occuring)
Also note the weasel words and phrases. "may" As they never definitively proven anything but will put it out there just in case.
and "Normal value ranges may vary slightly among different laboratories"
Umm .... yeah ..... I was always under the impression that laboratory equipment was inspected and calibrated regularly. Just what do those inspection seals mean on this stuff if results may vary ... at all.
The .308 FMJs we made in America, where still .308 when we shot Germans with em during WW2 with M1's in wildly uncontrolled environments.
We manage decent standards on our loading benches, why can't they at many times the price?

What Lead Levels are Considered Elevated in Adults?

At levels above 80 g/dL, serious, permanent health damage may occur (extremely dangerous).
Between 40 and 80 g/dL, serious health damage may be occuring, even if there are no symptoms (seriously elevated).
Between 25 and 40 g/dL, regular exposure is occuring. There is some evidence of potential physiologic problems (elevated).
Between 10 and 25 g/dL, lead is building up in the body and some exposure is occuring.

The typical level for U.S. adults is less than 10 g/dL (mean = 3 g/dL).

Now back to irregularly scheduled abnormal programing already in progress ...

bds
July 23, 2014, 03:40 PM
one Doc says 12 is the end of the world
My doctor's concern was not that my lead level was 12 but it went from 8 to 12 with me taking the necessary precautions (including using 3M respirator for range brass processing/handling). It was the continued increase in lead level that made her concerned.

Let's not hijack this thread anymore than what we already have done to blarby and forward the discussion to an already existing lead thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=307170&page=10

That way we can maintain the focus of this thread which is discussing the benefits of powder coating lead bullets.

VenomBallistics
July 23, 2014, 05:21 PM
Hence my closing statement "Now back to irregularly scheduled abnormal programming already in progress"

With lead abatement being one of the factors involved with coating processes, it is really easy to bird walk into the medical side of it.

Seeing as PC seems to go head to head with the Aussie Hi Tek process, I kinda wonder which system would be better at lead abatement.
I think the test requirements would be exceedingly difficult to achieve ... so ....


I found this powder to play with.
It'll be a while before I can get myself into a position to do any serious velocity testing to see if this stuff can offer up any advantages over the HF dust or the PBTP Super durable.
so I'll put this one out there for any takers.
http://www.allpowderpaints.com/powder-coating-colors/teflon-slip-black/
Given its stated applications for fairly grueling duties in the product description, it will hold up at least as well as any other powder.
The fact that it has self lubricating properties just might tack on some velocity within a given load, perhaps even significant gains.
wont know till we try.
I'd do cartwheels if it made 1200 FPS in a 230 grain 45 ACP load at standard pressure ... by no means am I counting on that, its quite lofty, but man .. thats some serious medicine if it would.

dunno556
July 26, 2014, 02:51 PM
Didn't get started yesterday as I ended up going to a job interview @ 10AM and from there the day just spiraled away.

I would imagine if my 9mm experiment works out. That would be enough to say you can push those 230g 45's at that speed.

The load, previously posted, that I run my 9's with is supposed to give around 1300 fps.

The test guns, (not tested by me), were a Ruger P-85 & a Berreta 92-F yielding 1.25" - 2" groups @ 20yds

Once I get around to it :rolleyes: I'll work up some test rounds, prolly starting around 5.8. Then 6, 6.2, 6.3, 6.4 & finally if I have not witnessed any leading by then, 6.5. Which is what I shoot the XTP's at.

I don't own a crony "yet". If I get the job, maybe I'll order one as I always wonder what I'm "actually" getting from my reloads.
And, for the purposes of these experiments, it would be nice to know the real #'s. Any suggestions as to which crono to buy. Or which ones to stay away from would be even better.

Just FYI.
None of what I'm posting has been extruded from my posterior exit.
Ken Waters Pet Loads Complete Volume from Handloader page 725, second paragraph.

dunno556
July 30, 2014, 12:36 PM
Finally got to try out hot tumbling.

Unfortunately the toaster oven that I have had tasking up space in my garage for 10 yrs is not quite what would be needed for this. There is no temp control :( only a selector for the lower element or the upper or both and a timer :banghead:

I gave it a shot anyway. Heated them for about 10 min. Then dumped them into the can with air soft BB's and about a TBSP of PC.

The PC stuck to them "fairly" well. I was hoping to see them partly melted at worst. But they looked "powder" coated. But for the most part did not rub off completely from handling them.

Some of them stuck together, see pics. I "think" they got stuck from git. Not during the 10 minute tumble.

After sizing them again, (after baking them for 15 min), I only had 17 out of 50 that I would consider usable for this experiment :(

I'll still shoot the crappy ones just not at j speeds.

If I had a temp control this would probably have come out better IMO.

dunno556
July 30, 2014, 01:02 PM
As you can see the toaster pan is very small and may have been over crowded for this particular usage.
You can also see that 2 of them actually started to melt the PC :D

There were a few that stuck end to end, so I sprinkled PC on the parchment to fix them after pulling them apart. Unfortunately, it seems my sprinkling abilities are a bit lacking and I over did it. I sprinkled the whole lot as I figured a little extra on the bottoms would be a good thing. Not in this case though. This caused the PC to crack off the bottom band area when sizing, making them rejects.



I'm thinking that the 17 good ones would be enough to do a test?

I have never had an issue with leading before, nor knew anyone that did.
I'm thinking I have enough to run about 3 shots for each step up in charge weights. Would this be sufficient or would I need to run more through it to even begin to notice leading?

Or should I just say screw it till I get a proper toaster oven?
From this half assed test, it appears to show "some" promise.

Cuz like my name says... I "dunno" at this point.

VenomBallistics
July 31, 2014, 01:35 AM
I'm beating the coating like a rented mule.
Yes I did get the coat to fail, which seems to be right around 2500 fps.
Leading, if it happens, will be in the corners of the rifling, and nothing as obvious as the smooth bore conversation in lead that happens without pc.
17 is a fair start.
More would be better of course, but going by your pictures, you're pretty close to a one shot solution there
run batches of 10 to 15 at a time and hammer out the method a little more.
20% success rates hurt less when the quantities are small.

dunno556
July 31, 2014, 01:16 PM
Thanks for the info Venom.
The crappy oven really hurt the process. Wish I had opened the box previously :rolleyes:

Based on your 2500fps I think I will just load them the same as the XTP's and see what happens. I can always stop off at my favorite store to hate and pick up one of those poor boy pads to clean the barrel out "IF" necessary.
Doesn't sound like I will need to though.

More about my 1st attempt...

I did add the rumble strips inside the can, didn't mention it before.
I "think" the clumped boolits were from the dumping of the hot boolits into the can. It takes a minute to put the lid on securely and get it on the tumbler & spinning.

I put in the BB's, air soft, see pic below. Then added about 1 TBSP PC. I cook a lot, and am good at estimating via dumping into the palm of my hand.
I shook the can slightly to get the PC down into the BB's a bit.

Maybe add the PC first to help avoid the clumping and I'm pretty sure the boolits need to be hotter as well

The pic of the can only shows 2 rumble strips, there are 3. Attached w/ 1/2" self tappers from the outside. Since the hot melt sticks are shorter than the can, I put one on the bottom, one in the middle and one at the top. Equally spaced by eye.

With the BB's it was surprisingly quiet. Probably not quiet enough for female/wife/GF ears. Go figure. I did this in my garage btw ;)

I added pics of the BB's after tumbling. One to show the brand & one to see more of the actual BB's. They only have a slight coating on them. So it's not like they are wasting a lot of the PC.

I think I'll run a batch of 25 tomorrow. I'll preheat the boolits for 20 min this time with my crappy oven. Hopefully they don't melt. My infrared gadget quits somewhere around 220

I had previously said I would just melt down the rejects.
Now I think I'll just shoot them as regular Pb loads minus the smoke :p

PS
While doing research about this topic. I ended up looking into swaging.
Seriously thinking about it for the .224 as the initial cost is much lower than a full blown kit.
Still pricey for the average Joe not the plumber. But recycling 22LR's, which litter most ranges.
Combined with using plain lead, (BHN 5-6), seems to be not that bad of an idea.

So thanks guys :cuss: <-- LOL

PPS
Not trying to start a conversation on swaging BTW.

VenomBallistics
July 31, 2014, 01:27 PM
I'd take a few preventative steps here.
I really forsee the hot melt sticks doing what they are designed to do at some point.
The bb's might hold up. I am not sure when they melt.
Given the nature of your oven, try putting a small amount of powder on a sacrificial bullet while you heat the batch.
When it melts, they are ready.

dunno556
July 31, 2014, 02:32 PM
I agree Venom.

As far as the glue sticks melting.
I don't think they will with all the BB's sucking up the heat.
It would be an easy fix though. rubber fuel line or similar should work?

I had considered putting the can on top of the oven to warm them up.
But then I probably would not be able to put the PC powder in the bottom of the can ?

If they do melt though, I kinda have an oh well attitude towards it.
All part of the learning curve, ya know.

As far as running the 17 survivors down the barrel.
I'll only shoot 1 or 2 and disassemble to look down the barrel.
XD's are remarkably easy to take apart.

If it's as clean as when I got there I'll run 3 or 4 more and check the barrel again.

I have no intention of blowing myself or my gun up in the search for a cheap way to powder coat.

I'm already leaning towards the "idea" that the ES kit + a proper oven would most likely be "the cheap way" to do this.
Especially "if" I have to preheat them longer AND can only run small batches.

After all... time really is money.

As it stands, round two will take approximately 30 - 35 minutes of processing time. not including the prep. Prep would be at least 5 min.

So 40 minutes to get a batch of 25 bullets, IMO, is not a good deal.
I'm sure someone would feel otherwise, but I have other things to do and would want a method that would allow me to make at least 100 for the same time as above.
Preferably 500.

"IF" I can get this method to work on a batch of 25 with the equipment I have on hand though.
I would think a larger/better oven and a larger can would then make that happen.
Although I think the 1 gal can could easily accommodate 200 - 250, maybe more.

On that note, maybe adding more would keep everything hot enough to get a good tumbling going and keep them from clumping together as well?

Right now I'm unemployed, working here & there sorta self employed, as I can find it.
So making any large purchases is on hold.
But if the 25 count method works. I would definitely get a better oven, ($25-$30), to see if the larger batches would work out.

If I get a "real" job before then, I'm thinking a convection type toaster would be the way to go for larger batches.
More even heating... but I'm getting ahead of myself now.

It's easy to over look things or get tunnel vision when experimenting.
Any & all thoughts appreciated.

dunno556
July 31, 2014, 03:15 PM
I have a bunch of 9MM that were cast/tucked away, a while ago.
After weighing a bunch, average weight is 7.1 grams.
So by weight, this container holds 601 115g SWC.

The tumbler has a capacity of 2lbs with the larger drum, which weighs 7lbs 3 oz.
So I'll call it a 9lb TOTAL capacity

The 601 boolits are 4269 grams = 9lb 6.5846oz.
So the equipment I have, except the toaster, will handle the weight of what I want to be the end result.

Everything will also fit into a 1 gal can with plenty of room to spare as well.
By everything, I mean somewhere between 200 & 500 boolits, BB's, & PC
Haven't weighed the paint can yet to nail down the exact # that would max out the operation.

Leaving off 4lb for the can, BB's & PC
I can run 5lb batches, which in this case would be 300 115g SWC

**Most #'s have been rounded down

Unless anyone has any thoughts on this, I'll give ya'll a break and post the results of the 17 on Mon or Tues. Supposed to rain Mon. We'll see ;)
Gonna take a milk jug or 2 along to see if I can catch one too ;)

Hey bds, did ya get that mold drilled out yet?

VenomBallistics
July 31, 2014, 03:27 PM
thats why I say 10 - 15 at a time at this point .. time is money, if you can cast 200, and refine the process 10 at a time .. thats 20 chances to get lucky.
once you do .. by all means, adjust the quantities as seen fit.

Model airplane fuel line is soft and flexible, it can also withstand the heat of molten lead if tasked to do so.

I tend to agree that the ES kit is the way to fly. However, look at your immediate situation.
You have a few odds and ends and just enough to make something work.
I suppose an ES gun, compressor, and sleazy bake oven might kinda equate a lube sizer in its own way.
You graduate to it after your done pan lubing.
In coating, you graduate from the shake and bake academy.
it's good form to carve a few good tips into your desk for the next student who will likely hop aboard while looking at his own resources, not too dissimilar from your own.

Im pretty sure that coatings do fowl, though I haven't seem much evidence of it.
It could be that the fowling gets incinerated and blown out while you shoot.
end result, is that the gun will clean up faster and easier than it would shooting jacketed or plated. If I wasn't sold on it with a tight high velocity group out of a rifle, that part finished the sale.
try not to wear out your take down mechanism.

Im not sure I'd want a convection oven for this ...
its dust, easily carried by air.
I'd suspect that while the temp is rising, powder would be blowing till it flashed over.
eventually, you'd have a very thick coat in places you just cant clean.

I too could use more oven, as is with my various plates Ive made for coating and cooking, I can do batches of about 70 - 100.
Ill roll with it till it pukes though.
figure 5 full batches will keep you shooting for a good while.

VenomBallistics
July 31, 2014, 05:25 PM
since I know the redline for the HF powder to be right around 2500 FPS. I figured I'd get a tad more spendy, but not much more, and order up a few different powders to see if I can't manage a few hundred more FPS.
Im also noodling with some alloys to see if I can get them to group well at these higher speeds too.

Alloy kinda makes me think a bit as to just how hard we really need to cast pistol bullets.
2200 is a speed no standard handgun can reach, and 2200 was about where the accuracy fell apart in a rifle using WW lead.
I have some dead soft lead from a dentist that needs a purpose in life, so I figure I can kick some minions in a 44 magnum to see if PC can give us some latitude with BHN.
If so ... we all have expanding bullets, that otherwise behaved like FMJ;)

A Pause for the Coz
July 31, 2014, 07:27 PM
Why powder coat a bullet? What does that do for you?
Since I 1st started this last winter. I have pretty much migrated all my pistol loads to Powder Coated bullets. Pretty much for the same reasons people have already given.
But there was one thing that powder coated bullets can pull off that standard cast/ lubed bullets could not. This has tripped the trigger for me.

Powder coated bullets can be used in Hornady bullet feed dies.
I had tried for over a year to get my cast bullets to feed with varying degrees of success. Eventually you always end up tearing the die apart to clean out the lube.
Not with powder coated. They feed just the same as copper plated bullets.

If your feeding a bunch of kids who like carbines. Being able to knock out a coffee can full of 45acp's fast and on the cheap. Is real nice.

I only do one rifle caliber. 223 for my AR. Working well in that use.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d66/Kelly2215/100_9334_zps245389f3.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d66/Kelly2215/100_9336_zps3bd7109a.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d66/Kelly2215/100_9369_zps0a8091e6.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d66/Kelly2215/103_9137_zps97033025.jpg

Here is a copy of the Lyman 311299 scaled down to a 75gr bullet for .223

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d66/Kelly2215/100_9222_zps4d3de04b.jpg

VenomBallistics
August 1, 2014, 11:43 AM
Don't forget that there is more than one color.
Handy thing when you have the same bullet doing multiple duties.

dunno556
August 1, 2014, 05:26 PM
Thanks for "pausing" to verify what I had a good suspicion of already. I don't own the case or bullet feeders yet. I kinda figured it would solve the problems you mentioned.

I've had my LNL for about 2.5 yrs now. Had some health issues that prevented me from using it very much until recently.
So as not to derail the thread, I'll just say that I have yet to get it to work properly.
Even after getting some new parts for it. Gonna have to get on the phone, AGAIN, real soon.

I decided to do a little research on the load I'm using for my test run just to be able to say I covered all the bases. 4 bases, 4 manuals :D

Ken Waters says 6.5g AA#5 gives just under 1300fps
Hornady 4th edition says 6.6g AA#5 gives 1200fps
Midway Load Map says 6.5g AA#5 gives 1180fps
They are all max loads from those manuals using 115g HP/XTP
Lyman #49 does not list AA#5 for 115g HP/XTP
They do list it for 120g cast @ 6g max 1150fps

I have them loaded up now. I believe I started w/ 55 boolits.
17 came out in a condition to take the beating of a j bullet.
24 I loaded w/3.8g Bullseye, which is starting charge for 120g cast.
They had slight imperfections in the PC, but I believe they will do just fine at that charge.

Hover your mouse over the last 3 pics for the description of what you're looking at. I believe I nailed it on the descriptions ;)

I have a full schedule this weekend, if it 's not raining to much I'll get them blasted on Mon. Mon & Tues is supposed to be rain. So the next available day I'll git-er-done.

dunno556
August 1, 2014, 05:39 PM
As far as the BHN thing Venom. I believe I read on CB that adding hardness does improve the accuracy as well as allow some more speed.

If I remember correctly, WW or less starts to flex under the pressures of the higher, (rifle), charges and causes the loss of accuracy which then causes people to stop/back off a smidge and call it quits.

I do not recall how fast they got them to go though, or at what BHN.

I always worked with the philosophy that if I can hit a paper plate or better, it's working. Cuz a good portion of what you want to shoot/kill is bigger than that anyway.

Just my 5 cents, used to be 2 cents. But I adjusted it for inflation ;)

VenomBallistics
August 1, 2014, 06:05 PM
what Im looking at is a split in my objectives.
Rifles giving it for all there worth makes for a good set of field worthy cast loads.
but then, I also have a classic lead launch platform, the 44 magnum revolver.
figuring for a 200 - 220 grain bullet at around 1500 - 1600 FPS or in the threreabouts could mean decent expansion at high production rates if PC will let us get away with speeds past 1000.
It just makes the standard paper puncher slug a good bit handier

dunno556
August 5, 2014, 04:45 PM
Finally made it to the range today.
The PC worked great. Both on the lower velocity, "seconds" and the max loaded boolits as well.
The barrel was cleaner than a whistle. Not even a trace of leading.

If only I had a chrono to be more specific.
I'm fairly confident that I exceeded 1100 fps going by the load data available.

Sadly the accuracy dropped off a bit with the hotter loads.
A bit of that was me to be sure.
But with a 3" barrel @ 25yds, not too bad.

Just happened that there was a guy there with an XD, 4.5" barrel.
By dumb luck he lives about 3 blocks from me AND he used to do powder coating for a living... What are the odds on that :rolleyes:

Anyway, he was quite impressed with the whole idea and shot a few of each from his pistola. He shot high, but also did so with his factory ammo.

For round 2 I'll back down the AA#5 a bit to see if I can improve the accuracy of "my" gun while pushing it as hard as I can.

The 3.8g of Bullseye was quite accurate and I'll bump that one up a bit next time.

I was thinking / wondering...

The XD is +P rated.
I doubt that the load books I have take that into consideration?

So what I'm wondering is, how can I find out what that means as far as chamber pressure? Perhaps I could push them harder, instead of less, to see if accuracy could be improved that way?

The only thing I know about +P is that they are basically "hotter" rounds?

VenomBallistics
August 5, 2014, 06:29 PM
+P has to do with pressure more than velocity.
That's one thing that leads to confusion.
If loading 4227 in a 30-06 it's fairly easy to cook up a theoretical +P load that's easily surpassed using 4831.
+P ratings, in many cases, means that you have some extra margin to keep your gun together.
Unless we find a means of installing a strain gage to the chamber area, we only have our primers to go by. We might be gaining some space in the pressure budget, I haven't really paid too much attention to this yet.
I would load up a batch in increments around your most accurate load, look for improvement, and carve the best result into your loading bench.
Many powders work in the 9MM. It's better to seek power through powder selection.
Meanwhile, it sure is fun to see the difference powder coating makes.

As for the various coating powders, I think it is best explored in a rifle.
The worst powder so far has been the Harbor Freight matte black. It really looks the proper part on a bullet. And still works admirably at pistol levels.
The degrees of suck really don't show up till your playing with serious rifle cartridges.
So at this point. I see little need to get spendy with pistol bullet coatings.
The best so far, is not legal in all states. Teflon slip black seems to be the last word. If you are legal to use it.
I've been loading a lot of ammo for various tests over a chrono when I can get to that duty.

Jesse Heywood
August 5, 2014, 06:47 PM
The XD is +P rated.
I doubt that the load books I have take that into consideration?

If you haven't seen it, Accurate has new data for +P on their website. They show several loads for 9mm +P in lead, plated & jacketed. Looks like they shot for 39,000 psi max.

dunno556
August 5, 2014, 08:25 PM
Thanks Jesse :D I'll definitely check that out.

Yup on the rifle instead of pistol Venom.
I'm just using the 9mm because it's all I cast ATM.
More so just to work on the hot tumble method to see if I can make it work.

I "might" order a 7.62x39 mold soon as well as a .309 150g which I can use in my 06, (bolt), or my over under 30-30/20ga.

The later is pretty old, Savage 24V-A.
So I won't push that one too hard.
The 06, (mod. 700), is fairly old as well. I've owned it since new for almost 34 years now.
Less than 100 rounds down the pipe would be a safe bet. And would be a good candidate for testing some rifle boolits.

On my earlier mention of a new shooting buddy.
He mentioned to me that when he worked at the PC factory.
They would dump 50# bags of PC into a vat that had air supplied to the bottom of the vat.
With the proper amount of air pumped in, the PC would look like boiling water and they would dip the hot parts into the bubbling PC for an unspecified amount of time.
And then pull it out and it was left to cool and the job was done.

He said there wasn't any powder flying in the air, which I find hard to believe.
But if the air is regulated properly, he claims that that is the case.

So far I have not had much time to contemplate how to apply this method to boolits.
Or if it even could be? Perhaps someone else can put some brain cells into action on this idea?

The only thing I can come up with is gripping, (lightly), the tips with some sort of clamp.
That would allow, most importantly, the bottom, to be coated, as well as the sides.
Then set them, (prob not work for BT), on parchment to cool ?

It's making my head hurt ATM :banghead:
Whatcha think ?
Cuz I... dunno :D

VenomBallistics
August 5, 2014, 09:11 PM
Smells like you're looking at the Lee molds.
Get the 200 g rn too.
My 06 loves them for the heavy lifting.
The 150 flat point also performs extraordinarily well as a small game load.

VenomBallistics
August 6, 2014, 01:15 AM
Parchment has been my friend in this from day one.
It'll take the heat and release beautifully.
The closest thing to the boiling powder method I can think of is something of a stuff hits the fan in a closed box kinda deal.
When we start getting into these sorts of contraptions, it's time for the spray gun.
Since that's the way I coat, I have a small amount of powder waste which ends up being a sheet of plastic foil that peels off the parchment.
I've noticed some of the properties of the waste foil gives a clue about the powders suitability. Seems the samples you can fold in half and crease without breaking seem to hold up better at high velocity.

dunno556
August 6, 2014, 08:50 PM
Yup on the Lee molds.

I think you're right about the contraptions vs just get an ES gun.
I already own a compressor, actually just gave away a small 4 gal one to my neighbor just to get it out of my over stuffed garage.

The remaining compressor would probably run at least 20 guns simultaneously.
60 gal. 175 PSI

I'm still hopeful I can get the hot tumble to work, even if it only works for just getting a nice coat on and then bake. I think it's an economical approach if one does not already own a compressor.
And the 1st attempt was not very shabby at all.

Of course you would still need something to spin the can.
But that could be accomplished with some PVC pipe for rollers and a make shift hand crank on one of the rollers.

I have also figured out how to see what my crappy oven is doing.
I have one of those oven thermometers that hangs from the rack to make sure your oven is really running at the set temp. It maxes out around 550 I think.

Was also thinking I could use the BBQ grill to preheat the boolits so I could try a larger batch of say 100 pcs., to see if a larger heat mass would help to get them melted without having to bake after coating "&" also have them not stick together.

But I have a feeling I will eventually buy an ES gun and make some caliber specific racks to hold the boolits and try to find a discarded BBQ grill to use for baking them. Grill parts are not that expensive.
And if you can find 2 or 3 junk grills I'd bet you could make 1 good one to use just for this purpose ;)

Sorry if I seem long winded.
Just throwing spaghetti on the wall to see if something sticks :evil:

Steve2md
August 6, 2014, 09:05 PM
PC is a heat cure, so you will probably still have to bake them after each coat to get it to stay stuck on there.

dunno556
August 6, 2014, 09:24 PM
Yes it is Stevo.

However, as you can see in the top left corner of pic #3 in this post... http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=9562573&postcount=157

The coating is already melting.
So with some more tinkering I believe it's possible to do this without baking after coating ;)

The biggest obstacle will be keeping them from sticking together.
But I think it can be done based on the trial run.
Maybe not... but I'm willing to waste a bit of time trying.
Especially since the rejects run perfectly at cast velocity w/out GC'ing or lube clouds choking me out at the range.

VenomBallistics
August 7, 2014, 01:29 AM
That is correct stevo, however, the tumble method takes two or three coats depending upon powder used as well as various conditions.
With his hot tumble method, and his willingness to iron it out, it's a one coat and done option for the beginner.
A noble cause by any measure.

nah dunno, you don't want open flame.
It's still cheaper to score a suitable sleazy bake toaster oven at Walmart.
Yeah, definitely add the Lee 200 grain mold to your git it list.
This one is almost a fail safe in 06.
If the practical upper limit is a solid 2200 before accuracy flakes out, you're still kissing the edge of full cartridge potential.

Steve2md
August 7, 2014, 03:26 PM
Hey, I'm all for experimentation. That's how we ended up with powdercoated bullets to begin with! Diggin the efforts btw!

dunno556
August 7, 2014, 04:04 PM
Originally Posted by Steve2md
Hey, I'm all for experimentation. That's how we ended up with powdercoated bullets to begin with! Diggin the efforts btw!

Yup, this is not, yet, a how to thread. More of a lets see if we can do it like this thread. Not everyone has compressors & ES guns, nor can afford them either.

I was only thinking the BBQ for the preheat Venom.
Wouldn't want a powder cloud in an open flame like that.

I would bet that a lot of folks don't even know that regular old baking flour can explode / is very flammable when in a dust cloud.
So I would imagine PC would be the same.

Gonna order the 7.62x39 mold for sure. The AK will take anything I throw at it.
They are quite bullet proof, pardon the pun.
I'll probably get the 150 FP as well, 200 RN on the wish list for now.
I'll definitely be getting it though. That's a nice chunk of lead, J or not :evil:

Did bds drill the mold out himself or send it out?
I have a cheap drill press I could attempt it with, just not sure how well it will come out.

A little tip about drills & holes.
Drill bits do not really make round holes. They are close, but not quite round :(
Not sure if they would be close enough for boolit making purposes.
Would be case by case depending on the drill bit quality and condition.
Might be close enough for the sizer to clean up though?

PS
Am I the only one who thought Brownells was have a 75% off sale from the advertisements below? LOL

VenomBallistics
August 8, 2014, 12:52 AM
The sizer can forgive a few sins. But the best ways involve lathes and mills.
since the average person doesn't have space for such things, another option it to drill undersize and finish out with rolled up sandpaper, and a final lapping done with a bullet and jewelers rouge.

Food for thought if you get tempted to ream one out.

dunno556
August 8, 2014, 09:57 AM
That's exactly where my mind is at right now Venom.
Since all the rifle molds are GC, & PC negates the need for GC's.
The reading I've done so far indicates that w/out a GC the accuracy drops :(
So this would be next on the list.

boom boom
August 8, 2014, 02:49 PM
Thanks to you guys. Been intrigued by the whole Powder Coating thing. Ddidn't have time to experiment with the different methods and loads like you do.

Given your data on rifles, seriously thinking about getting the HF pc gun and doing some loads for my milsurps. I try to treat them gently but lead fouling can occur as some of the barrel bores aren't exactly like glass.

VenomBallistics
August 8, 2014, 03:58 PM
True, however, old iron like a decent mil surp seasons up a whole lot easier than a fresh bore.
Wife's 357 Henry still won't fully warm up to traditional cast. Its deadly accurate with one of the Lyman swc hp's, but it lead lines the pipe without fail.
I will have to drag her to the range to liberate some brass.
Brass liberation has been a chronic issue standing in the way of my progress.
I just got every chunk of brass all full and happy, then I heard about powder coating.
Means more frequent range trips, so I guess I should find a real problem to rant about.

dunno556
August 14, 2014, 09:49 AM
Looks like the learning curve just threw me a curve.
Candy cane/striped bullets for Christmas anyone :cool:

VenomBallistics
August 14, 2014, 01:17 PM
Some might argue, but that'll work.
He's getting closer folks.
I just love this kind of stuff.

anothernewb
August 14, 2014, 02:08 PM
I've got quite literally piles of recovered range lead looking for a home. I'd be willing to donate some for the cause. I've been really interested in the coated bullets myself.

dunno556
August 14, 2014, 04:19 PM
Yes, I'm sure some would argue that point.
But ALL the bearing surfaces are coated, including the not pictured, but all important bottom surface.

I'm far from there though. Got about a 50% success rate that time.
Partly do to user error.

So some of them went through part of the process twice.
Some are waiting for another tumble in round 3.
Some, but not many are in the pot to be reclaimed.

Appreciate the offer newb.
But I'm doing OK with lead atm. Just mined 25lbs at the LGC today.
Not bad for an hours worth of gnat swatting :rolleyes:

anothernewb
August 14, 2014, 06:15 PM
Yes, I'm sure some
Appreciate the offer newb.
But I'm doing OK with lead atm. Just mined 25lbs at the LGC today.
Not bad for an hours worth of gnat swatting :rolleyes:

That's pretty awesome. they're leveling and rebuilding the berms at our outdoor range this year. Buddy and I scavenged about 4, 5 gal buckets worth from the first 2 just picking the stuff up off the ground when they spread the dirt. No one else seems interested in grabbing it - so we did. Figure there's probably 400# worth of lead/copper in them. There's 4 more berms to take down. He makes his own - but I have no interest in messing with lead melting. Guess it's one of the things I'm perfectly happy to shell out a few bucks for the convenience.

R.W.Dale
August 16, 2014, 10:53 PM
I didn't cast em (my equipment is in the mail) but I did coat em using eastwoods gun and powder.

I need to figure out how to keep the foil from sticking to the powdercoat and my bullet nose. Any suggestions?
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/krochus/bullet%20casting/5025C5AD-91F7-4120-B1FD-909EA3D0FBFC_zpsmtmu8ql5.jpg (http://s3.photobucket.com/user/krochus/media/bullet%20casting/5025C5AD-91F7-4120-B1FD-909EA3D0FBFC_zpsmtmu8ql5.jpg.html)

VenomBallistics
August 18, 2014, 01:00 AM
Coat them base down, rack em like billiards nose down after the bake, spray the bases the, and use an iron and a sheet of parchment to set the base coat.
The gun works through a sheet of parchment if that helps you any

R.W.Dale
August 18, 2014, 01:03 AM
I need exposed lead at the nose to be legal to hunt with. And they need some kind of block not to fall over gettin them into the oven no matter how careful I was.

I just had regular foil. I'm hoping the non stick variety will alliveiate this

VenomBallistics
August 18, 2014, 02:27 AM
I assume you are using a plate with holes drilled in it.
Coat and bake directly on it.
Sand off the flash when you're done snapping them out of the plate.
Then use the previous suggestion for load development and general range use.
Should spare a lot of pain.

Safetychain
August 18, 2014, 03:30 AM
"I need exposed lead at the nose to be legal to hunt with."

I would have thought that a painted bullet would be considered a lead pointed bullet. I know that with these, we are in a newly untested area. I suggest that you call your state permitting agency and discuss this new tech coating/lubrication with them, and call it LUBRICATION. The lead point is there to assure good expansion and a more sure kill according to what I've read and the PC paint will surely do nothing to cause it to act any differently from lead when hitting your target. Consider if you moly coated your bullets which when I did it once turned them black. Would you feel you would need to tape the points to keep the moly off?

R.W.Dale
August 18, 2014, 08:05 AM
"I need exposed lead at the nose to be legal to hunt with."

I would have thought that a painted bullet would be considered a lead pointed bullet. I know that with these, we are in a newly untested area. I suggest that you call your state permitting agency and discuss this new tech coating/lubrication with them, and call it LUBRICATION. The lead point is there to assure good expansion and a more sure kill according to what I've read and the PC paint will surely do nothing to cause it to act any differently from lead when hitting your target. Consider if you moly coated your bullets which when I did it once turned them black. Would you feel you would need to tape the points to keep the moly off?


Lol you obviously have no experience with how the game and fish bureaucracy works.

Lol call them and explain. Lol that's outright hilarious


If it's not in accordance with the "book" I can assure you no matter how intelligent a phone conversation you had said activity is still illegal in the field and will get cited as such And yes the regulation book is chocked full of illogical guidelines.

VenomBallistics
August 18, 2014, 11:00 AM
yeah... just like the use of Teflon on bullets in some states.
the stuff is a godsend for what we are doing here and now.
its not 50 state legal though.
in fact, coatings in general might fall under fire in some parts of California.
I haven't read the law there as yet. Not particularly motivated to do so, and even less motivated to go and see.

R.W.Dale
August 18, 2014, 11:05 AM
Would dumping the bullets hot straight out of their baking tray into a quench before they have a chance to stick pose any issues for the powdercoat itself?

VenomBallistics
August 18, 2014, 11:24 AM
it may craze the finish some, but I really don't see any serious issues with it.
I don't really see a pressing need to water quench in most cases.
this stuff works some miracles.
Ive burned up more than a little of my powder reserve whipping the minions.

If a coating fails, it will deposit its lead fowling on the breach facing edge of the rifling.
I got that around 2500FPS with air cooled WW.
Play our cards right, and we can have some expansion too.

R.W.Dale
August 18, 2014, 04:04 PM
For me the quench would mainly be a way to get the bullets loose from the foil before everything solidifies.

But first I'm gonna make the switch to nonstick foil and see if that helps

VenomBallistics
August 21, 2014, 12:14 AM
How's that quench idea working so far?

R.W.Dale
August 21, 2014, 12:37 AM
I was going to post about it the other day but photobucket wouldn't take my pic.

Last batch I quenched a few hot plucked straight out of the oven with needlenosed pliers and let the remainder air cool on nonstick foil.

Both worked equally well.

There was a bit of powdercoat flash on the air cooled bullets but without being glued to foil as before it popped right off with a quick scrape of a thumbnail.

The quenched bullets appeared to have suffered no ill effects to the PC as far as I can tell from outward appearances.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/krochus/bullet%20casting/FD0536FD-A101-4E41-A88A-702F49DC6CCB_zpsbbgplhel.jpg (http://s3.photobucket.com/user/krochus/media/bullet%20casting/FD0536FD-A101-4E41-A88A-702F49DC6CCB_zpsbbgplhel.jpg.html)

VenomBallistics
August 21, 2014, 02:44 PM
Looking pretty worthy.
A little cleaner than what I pop out of my plates.
Today I am doing some full plastic jacket in the base down method to refine the rack and iron base method.
The way I see it, the base needs not to be an ideal coat.
Under cured wouldn't hurt anything as it needs only to take the flash heat.

dunno556
September 13, 2014, 01:48 AM
Hmmm... no news ?
Got the mold for my AK a little bit ago. Haven't had time to remove the GC portion yet :rolleyes:

R.W.Dale
September 13, 2014, 12:04 PM
Hmmm... no news ?

Got the mold for my AK a little bit ago. Haven't had time to remove the GC portion yet :rolleyes:


http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=761360

See this thread

dunno556
September 13, 2014, 05:59 PM
Thanks Dale.
Everything else I read so far said that w/out a GC you lose accuracy ?
Might not matter at 1K fps ?
I'm gonna be trying to go at least twice that for the experiment though.

I could give it a go as is and once I see that I can get the speed I want, if the accuracy is waning, I could mod the mold at that point.
Less work for the moment at least.

I was also figuring on making the lube grooves smaller when I did the GC.
More like a TL mold as the deeper grooves aren't really needed with PC.
Plus I use liquid alox anyway, at least I used to ;)

I did make 165 boolits with the mold today.
I also noticed, for some dumb reason. I neglected to buy the sizer :banghead:
Since they are dropping at .313 & my muzzle, using calipers, measures .311, then add a smidge for the PC :rolleyes:
Maybe they'll shrink up a smidge after they sit for a day or two.

R.W.Dale
September 13, 2014, 06:11 PM
I coated base up and laid the PC on very heavy almost filling in the shank for the gas check

Schwing
September 14, 2014, 05:11 PM
So this has already been touched on but I wanted to get some opinions/experiences from others who powder coat. If the O.P. would like, I will start my own thread but I thought it relevant here.

I recently posted that I had high lead issues in the past which is one reason why I started powder coating. I recently had a follow up test and my levels have actually gone up significantly since I started powder coating(21 to 35).

For the most part, I take heavy precautions when casting, loading and shooting so I don't want this to turn into a discussion about that. What I am curious about would be possible avenues of exposure that we might be presented with when powder coating.

For example, I have tumbled bullets in PC multiple times without wearing a mask. Do any of you think it is possible that the PC is abrasive enough to generate fine lead dust when tumbling? Is it possible that the Harbor Freight PC has lead in it? I don't see any disclosures on the bottle but...

Finally, we do know that naked lead bullets do generate a measurable amount of lead vapors when being fired. Is it possible that powder coating doesn't prevent this as much as we believe it does?

I am just curious what others of you think about this. I know my own lead issues are shooting related since none of my family members or co-workers have issues but I can't seem to pinpoint where I am being exposed.

Havok7416
September 14, 2014, 07:00 PM
Schwing, if you are coating your own bullets, then you are gaining no advantage as you still have to handle bare lead. If you are worried about lead exposure (and I did see your thread on that), why deal with bare lead at all?

bds
September 14, 2014, 07:24 PM
To not hijack this thread which focuses on the virtues of powder coating like cost/equipment/ease/challenges like humidity with primary objectives of not using messy/sticky lube, eliminating lead fouling of rifling/gas system and attaining 2500+ fps with cheaper coated bullets, we should discuss lead hazards in the lead thread so other THR members/guests can review all lead related information in a single thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=307170&page=10

I will post my response to Schwing on the other thread.

blarby
September 15, 2014, 02:01 PM
Well, the majority of the summers' major shooting is over.

I was able to cobble together one final casting run as promised from the remains of the testing run.

I'm going to be sizing, sorting, and counting the remains for distribution as promised this week.

In the end :

#1- this is great stuff for glocks. I got to compare the PC bullets to non-PC "professional" cast bullets and to my own, and there is no comparison in terms of leading. Polygonal barrel ? PC or Plated, which is cheaper or easier for you ?

#2 Long bullets don't stand well. They do seem to work just fine if you lay them on their side for curing, provided you can get over the cosmetic issues. I'm not sure there is a real good "cosmetically appealing" method to do these using the "shake and bake" method. If you can pop them tip down in a tray and spray them, awesome.

#3 PC not sticking to your bullets ? SHAKE HARDER AND FASTER. Seriously. MUCH faster. The static seems to build exponentially between those little BB's the more aggressively you shake them.


Those are about the only "certain" conclusions I can draw beyond those already made.

bds
September 15, 2014, 05:53 PM
#1 - HK/Glock owners rejoice!

#2 - You know, I have been thinking about making a double metal rack with pins on top and bottom to hold the long rifle bullets between two pins held with spring tension. I could send you pictures of the prototype and if it works well in your toaster oven, ship you the prototype.

#3 Shake harder and faster? I thought you resolved the lack of static electricity issue by rubbing the container on carpet?

blarby
September 15, 2014, 06:05 PM
#3 Shake harder and faster? I thought you resolved the lack of static electricity issue by rubbing the container on carpet?

Found out that if I just shake it like a taxman, for a few seconds longer than "necessary", that it works good, too.


#2 - You know, I have been thinking about making a double metal rack with pins on top and bottom to hold the long rifle bullets between two pins held with spring tension. I could send you pictures of the prototype and if it works well in your toaster oven, ship you the prototype.


I'd have to see it ! Everything I've ended up trying either warps the bullets ( lead under spring tension when heated brings this to mind) or sticks the bullets to the "tray", or othwise makes them appear crappy.

I'm starting to realize though that nice clean PC looks great, but like most things, appearance can be deceiving when it comes to function.

Schwing
September 15, 2014, 06:20 PM
#3 Shake harder and faster? I thought you resolved the lack of static electricity issue by rubbing the container on carpet?

I have found that warming the bullets up slightly increases the bonding significantly as well. Just a few degrees above room temp will do. If you get them HOT, they clump and look terrible.

I think this is why I have such great success with the Harbor Freight Black. I warm them up a few degrees and it sticks very well.

bds
September 15, 2014, 06:46 PM
#3 - Now he tells us! OK, shaking hard is good/better than carpet. Check

#2 - Ahhh. Forgot about 350F-400F heat making the bullet's hardness softer. How about a rack like this (sorry for the rough drawing) which won't put any pressure on the bullets?
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=202846&stc=1&d=1410817592

blarby
September 15, 2014, 06:53 PM
That would work great.

The problem becomes getting the PC'd projectiles in those little slots. If the little pins on the bottom were non-stick nail heads, that might help. I'm certain you would end up with more than one you couldn't get "un-wedged" when the PC bound the bullet to the stabilizers.


I have found that warming the bullets up slightly increases the bonding significantly as well. Just a few degrees above room temp will do. If you get them HOT, they clump and look terrible.

I'm sure doable, but tricky. Our temps swing pretty wildly pretty fast here. I'd rather not have to handle any more warm lead than I have to !



If cosmetics didn't "sell the boat" so to speak so well to so many, I would do these on one of the ........


Nah, I'm gonna hold on to that one :D

bds
September 15, 2014, 07:17 PM
I did say "rough" drawing ... ;)

I was thinking of using silicone tips for the pin ends. They are non-stick and temperature safe for 350F-400F baking temperature range.

We could use rounded/flat tip for the bottom pin and pointed tips for the top.


Wait a minute ...

How about using silicone block with round holes? You simply set the bullet base in the hole and bake.

Slight cosmetic blemish at the base won't be seen when the bullets are loaded in the case yet the powder coating will completely encase the lead alloy.

What do you think?

I guess we could use multiple silicone sheets and punch holes and use a flat sheet for the bottom to hold the bullet base.



You could test by buying a silicone baking sheet and cutting it in even piece for multiple layer silicone block.

Stack hole punched sheet pieces and set coated bullets and bake.

blarby
September 15, 2014, 07:28 PM
How about using silicone block with round holes?

Our brains are wandering in the same direction.


The only "problem" is that until it cures, the PC "dust" is really just that- dust. Rubbing or sliding the bullet across any ridgid surface will remove it, as its held only by static !


I wonder if we could get a beveled hole in the sheet that would encompass enough of the bullet to keep it upright and undeformed during the curing process, but far enough down on the ogive that it keeps a majority of the bullet coated.

R.W.Dale
September 15, 2014, 07:51 PM
You guys are over thinking this

As long as the blemished portion isn't on the bore diameter portion bullet shank it really doesn't matter.

I coat rifle bullets nose down in a tray with holes a little smaller than bore size.

It gives then a soft point look

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/krochus/bullet%20casting/FD0536FD-A101-4E41-A88A-702F49DC6CCB_zpsbbgplhel.jpg (http://s3.photobucket.com/user/krochus/media/bullet%20casting/FD0536FD-A101-4E41-A88A-702F49DC6CCB_zpsbbgplhel.jpg.html)

bds
September 15, 2014, 07:56 PM
R.W.Dale, love the way how those bullets came out.

That's what I suggested to blarby to powder coat .300BLK bullets and what I would do after retirement for my cast rifle bullets.

But we are kicking ideas around to see if we could find ways to fully coat and bake the bullets for cosmetic appeal. We know clean brass can shoot as well as shiny brass but some of us really want the brass to have mirror shine. :D

blarby
September 15, 2014, 07:59 PM
The other thing Dale, is that you are spraying them.

That removes a heap of the mechanical problems :D

For this excercise, spraying is out the window.

R.W.Dale
September 15, 2014, 07:59 PM
A fine mesh would have really small points of contact

You might try a screen of some sort to lay bullets on to bake

For example a pull bullets hot out of the oven and water drop them using a long pair of needle nosed pliers.

Because of the very small point of contact of the serrations inside the pliers resulting blemishes are inpreceptable

VenomBallistics
September 18, 2014, 02:30 PM
It's good to see the OP's make a return.
I see we have all been busy.
Ive gotten the redline up to 2700 FPS.
better coatings and harder alloys can finesse a few hundred more out of it, albeit at the expense of expansion.
theres some dangerous game loads in that equation.

VenomBallistics
September 18, 2014, 05:50 PM
The other thing Dale, is that you are spraying them.

That removes a heap of the mechanical problems

For this excercise, spraying is out the window.

and with that goes a few very worthwhile powders that should be treated spray only.

in my last string of testing, two powders rose to the top of the heap. All Powder Paints Arctic Cat Green, and their Teflon Slip Black.
Both have properties that helped me gain another 200 FPS without coating failure.
Green will work with shake and bake, Black needs to be the full coat the first time.
it's thermal cure, rather than thermal set, and makes an astonishing release layer.
once cured, adhesion of subsequent layers is difficult or impossible.

Check your state laws before use of it, it is legal in most states, but not all, even some that kinda surprised me.
Teflon coat is not limited to bullets ...
I did the raceways, barrel, guide rod, and barrel bushing of my 1911 in this stuff, refit the parts and ran it bone dry of grease or oil for 2k rounds.
its accuracy and performance were much improved.
that old war horse spent the day showing an HK USP, Sig P220, Glock, and S&W M&P how it was done, so it remains worth having even if you cant legally use it on bullets.
one shot gun permalube.
I love this stuff like a fat kid loves cake.

another thing I've played with was a bullet repair method using the piglet coating method.
I see this one a lot.
someone who does not cast, buys a box of hardcast that leads up his gun.
He asks for help and hears "Lube and size correctly" as the advise.
Sorry man, you can't make them bigger with wax and a size die.
At the end of the day, this individual will have a big old box of undersized useless, a gun that won't have em, and a half bottle of aspirin headache from being inundated with advise that won't work.

The fix ....
dump them in an old pot, fill with water, and bring to a rolling boil.
Let cool and skim off the lube.
Add a little vinegar, and return to a boil.
remove from heat and immediately dump the pot out onto a screen.
let em dry.

coat using the Piglet method, where the powder is mixed with acetone, and tumbled till the solvent has evaporated.

Bake and repeat.

yeah, it works.
Might not be as good as properly born coated cast, but it does fix a box of mistakes.
Try it to confirm as you wish. We finally have a solution to offer.
Now if I can just get the old guard to embrace, at least this, as the long needed roll of ducktape we've been looking for, something great would have been accomplished.

VenomBallistics
September 20, 2014, 02:39 AM
I have cooked up a few plates for baking.
No single one is a true universal go to solution.
The drawing has me thinking about a CPU ZIF socket.

This is the real coating game. Jigs and fixtures for baking.
We might all do well to tour various professional powder coat shops to see how they would deal with it.

blarby
September 21, 2014, 05:37 PM
Ok, what was left of the lead is up for grabs :

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=698208&page=87


All of my casting and coating stuff is back in storage for the chelating ! ( I mean, winter )

I hope everyone has a great fall hunting and shooting season.

VenomBallistics
September 21, 2014, 06:58 PM
I'm at the load pack and fire stage at the wholesale level too.
Got enough cast coated sized and stashed to load everything 4X over.
Guess it's time to sort out the stuff that worked from the concepts in progress, organize the notes and share tips and tricks.
Hopefully that effort will give others a fast track to success.

blarby
September 22, 2014, 01:44 AM
Probably my favorite of the whole adventure.


Got a lot of requests for that one !

For all of you bullet letter geeks, thats a :

158g PCGCLSWC

:evil:

VenomBallistics
September 22, 2014, 12:30 PM
one of my favorites on my end was this one.
http://www.venomballistics.com/vbl/powdered.jpg
this is an in process pic showing one of my coating / baking fixtures.
that seems to be the unsung hero of the game, the jigs and fixtures we have to cook up.
This is just drilled 16 Ga steel with nails welded in place, but these serve the purpose quite well.
http://www.venomballistics.com/vbl/load45.jpg

Tinker
September 23, 2014, 02:32 PM
Been following this subject here and on Cast Boolits. Got my feet wet with the "shake and bake" method this weekend. Man, to tell the truth, that method is aggravating and results are less than spectacular when it comes to loading time. "Tonging" out of the mix onto the cook tray for every single bullet leaves gaps in coverage, so two runs is neccesary to get them fully coated. Coating is lumpy,too. This brings me to a question....Maybe y'all can help with a solution.

The mold I use is a Lee, 125gr RN. Makes nice, consistant OD bullets. Push through a size die and I'm good to go. This PC adds a great deal to the OD. This messes with OAL settings. Normally I set OAL on these at 1.080" with uncoated bullets. I'm having to set OAL to near 1.045 to keep these at a proper "Plunk test" (keeping the ogive from engaging the rifling when chambering a round) depth. 1.045" is way shorter than any safe data I have access to.

The lumpyness I think can be fixed with one of those Harbour Freight powder coat guns and trial and error, but this still will yield a shorter than 1.080" OAL. I'm not comfortable with going lower than that OAL. Any of you guys run into this?

Schwing
September 23, 2014, 02:51 PM
Been following this subject here and on Cast Boolits. Got my feet wet with the "shake and bake" method this weekend. Man, to tell the truth, that method is aggravating and results are less than spectacular when it comes to loading time. "Tonging" out of the mix onto the cook tray for every single bullet leaves gaps in coverage, so two runs is neccesary to get them fully coated. Coating is lumpy,too. This brings me to a question....Maybe y'all can help with a solution.

The mold I use is a Lee, 125gr RN. Makes nice, consistant OD bullets. Push through a size die and I'm good to go. This PC adds a great deal to the OD. This messes with OAL settings. Normally I set OAL on these at 1.080" with uncoated bullets. I'm having to set OAL to near 1.045 to keep these at a proper "Plunk test" (keeping the ogive from engaging the rifling when chambering a round) depth. 1.045" is way shorter than any safe data I have access to.

The lumpyness I think can be fixed with one of those Harbour Freight powder coat guns and trial and error, but this still will yield a shorter than 1.080" OAL. I'm not comfortable with going lower than that OAL. Any of you guys run into this?
I use the same mold but have not had this issue with that mold. I have used a lee 125 grain TC mold that gave me OAL grief after powder coating. I ended up at about 1.050. I just backed down to the very lightest published load data and worked up very slowly checking for pressure signs. The irony is that they ended up being the most accurate cast 9mms I have come up with to date.

On the 125 grain RN bullets, I am wondering why you are having to seat them so much deeper. I get that the OGIVE gets a bump from the powder coating and it doesn't get sized down like the rest of the bullet but the largest jump I have seen personally is about .006. On my 125 grain TC mold, it is a shorter bullet (actually intended to be a .38) so that few thousands made quite a difference. If they are bumpy, the solution might be as simple as smoothing out the process some. On my shake and bake bullets, I do an extremely light first coat and then a slightly heavier second coat and it takes care of most of the lump issues.

VenomBallistics
September 23, 2014, 03:30 PM
The shake and bake method let's you take it for a test drive.
If it proves itself to you, as I'm sure it will, you just get serious about it.
An air compressor and an electrostatic spray gun isn't a bad investment, and can provide service for other things around the house.
The secret is in the jigs and fixtures.
If you can work these out to where you do not have to handle anything but the coating/baking fixture, all your problems are solved.

dunno556
September 23, 2014, 04:45 PM
If you're having to adjust the die that much, I would think you are using way too much powder.
Also, as far as the little marks from whatever you're using to "tong" them out. They really don't make any difference, except to your eyes.

Pics would help though ;)

VenomBallistics
September 23, 2014, 05:25 PM
I looked up that particular bullet.
That one might have some fun geometry to work with.
The spray method will add some uniformity to the coat and allow you to get closer to your oal. That rather acute angle offered by the ogive might be hard to completely overcome.
Truth be told, I don't know how thin we can go. All failures have been at ridiculous velocities no pistol could ever reach.
Your mission might be to find the minimum coat thickness.

Tinker
September 24, 2014, 02:21 PM
Thanks guys for the replies. That OAL of mine with these bullets is worrying me. I think I may later invest in a hollow point die and a powder coat sprayer in the near future. I really like that jig for HP's that Venom showed. That gets powder only where you really need the coating. Those pics look nice.

I'm only doing 9mm now, but I'd eventually like to get into .45ACP for home casting and range fun and leave the 9mm only for factory plated or jacketed rounds. A local company (Zero) makes nice jacketed projectiles in 9. I may even try another 9mm die after getting the PC results you guys are achieving.

Tinker
September 24, 2014, 02:27 PM
Oh, one more thing. I agree with someone's post (buried in one of these threads, here and at Cast Boolits) that this powder coat thing will be a revolution for casting for hobbyists and shooting in general if a KISS solution is found for consistant/inexpensive PC'ing. Plus, the finished rounds just look cool.:D

VenomBallistics
September 24, 2014, 03:07 PM
Thank you.
I made that particular mold myself.

seems to be, cheap, easy, and effective .... pick two.

But the common theme between all methods is in the largely overlooked prep work that offers the most pain reduction.
Take your time crafting any tool you'll use more than twice.

popper
September 24, 2014, 04:24 PM
AR-308 - 168gr GC red HFPC @ 2400, 32F, ~50 yds prone on asphalt & bipod. 0.766,0.651,0.681 ATC MOA. 95F, off bags @ 100, 0.609 ATC MOA. This stuff works.

midland man
October 8, 2014, 10:05 PM
I would like to try some powder coated bullets I shoot 44mag, 45 colt, 30-30, 243! anyone have some that I could try?

jcwit
October 8, 2014, 10:22 PM
I would like to try some powder coated bullets I shoot 44mag, 45 colt, 30-30, 243! anyone have some that I could try?

There are a number of companies selling them, I've used Blue Bullets with excellent results and plan to order more. Google is your friend.

Potatohead
October 9, 2014, 07:36 AM
I love that they look like tasty gumdrops:what: but man it looks like this is a lot of trouble.

I guess it's probably as addicting as the rest of the hobby though.

jcwit
October 9, 2014, 01:22 PM
but man it looks like this is a lot of trouble.

That is the reason I just buy them.

blarby
October 9, 2014, 04:19 PM
but man it looks like this is a lot of trouble.

Depends on exactly how you make your current bullets.

If you cast tumble-lubed bullets, don't size them, and just tumble lube them : this is more work.

If you cast machine lube bullets, and machine lube them through a manual lubrisizer- like a saeco, for example, this is actually ( some might/will argue this, but I'd say its less ) less work.


The nice thing about PC is that it allows you to work around things like polygonal rifling, figuring out the right hardness of lead for your application, bore diameter problems, etc.

What I can't wait to try next year is............ Well, you get to wait for next year :D

Schwing
October 11, 2014, 08:49 PM
I was cleaning out my stash of various powder coating attempts this weekend and got bored:)

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=203867&stc=1&d=1413078494

Havok7416
October 11, 2014, 08:51 PM
Schwing, your picture did not appear.

Schwing
October 11, 2014, 10:50 PM
Schwing, your picture did not appear.
The second attempt was the charm.

Jesse Heywood
October 11, 2014, 11:23 PM
Florescent bullets and a black light are needed! :D

Schwing
October 27, 2014, 05:07 PM
I found something out over the weekend that may or may not be helpful to some of you. I cut a layer of aluminum window screen and put it on the bottom of my baking pan. To my surprise, the powder coating did not stick to it at all!

I originally bought the stuff to use as a strainer to allow extra powder to just roll off the bullets before I put them on to bake. I got lazy and just laid the screen out over the tray.

For those who use the shake and bake method and just dump them on the baking tray without much finesse, this seems to be the ticket. It also is reusable.

R.W.Dale
November 1, 2014, 05:30 PM
This is my very first and so far only cast bullet group from my brand new 30-30 encore bbl that I bought primarily to test cast.

100yds 9.3 grains of trail boss wolf LP primer sized .309" the same bullets I mentioned and pictured earlier in this thread204551

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