Remington ………the revolver of choice


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Crawdad1
June 11, 2014, 11:51 AM
Referring to the Hege revolvers that are from Germany, their advertising literature is now listed them as the “Hege – Uberti” revolver. People are saying that the ones presently offered are being built by Uberti and ‘tuned’ by Hege. Is this the story or are there others?
I know from experience that the Remington is the revolver of choice by competitive shooters but is this Hege Remington worth the asking price?
There are other less expensive options though, Pedersoli is offering a “Match grade” Remington while Pietta has always offered their “Target” model Remington with the rear adjustable sights and Euroarms, has offered in the past a Remington with a “Match” grade barrel. Are any of these options better than the new Hege revolver and has anyone seen matches where these revolvers are pitted against each other.

Granted, one Hege against one “Match Grade” Pedersoli Remington against one “Match Grade” Pietta Remington isn’t really going to prove anything. That competition will just prove that the one specific revolver can best the other two specific revolvers, but has anyone who is into these competitions seen these revolver go up against each other consistently and if they have is the German Hege Remington really, “The World’s Best”

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Old Fuff
June 11, 2014, 12:19 PM
If you buy a less costly "standard" revolver the two factors that most affect accuracy are chambers that are misaligned with the bore, and/or have chambers that are undersized and swage the ball/bullet smaller then the groove diameter of the barrel. After that it's a matter of fine tuning.

Matches can be decided by a matter of a few points (sometimes no more then one) so serious competitors don't compromise when it comes to equipment. I am no longer shooting in tournaments, but I do like my revolvers (of all kinds) to be a accurate as possible - at least within reason.

The best cap & ball revolvers can interlock holes in a tight group at 50 yards or meters, but to do this the price is relatively high. So the question is, "Is this level of accuracy important enough to you to pay the price?"

That said, if almost is close enough, consider buying a used Ruger Old Army for less money.

Crawdad1
June 11, 2014, 01:11 PM
Thanks Old Fuff!!!
I don't particularly care for the Ruger as it cannot be used in these competitions. But, I have to hand it to the Remington design though, most use a Remington in these competitions.

I really hated saying that as I love my Colts!!! :fire:

Old Fuff
June 11, 2014, 01:27 PM
I really hated saying that as I love my Colts!!!

Oh I do too... But they wouldn't be my first choice to shoot in serious competition. The lip on the hammer doesn't make a good location for a rear sight, and moving it up to the back end of the barrel shortens the sight radius. Also it's harder to find an economy replica that doesn't have at least one chamber that doesn't line up with the bore. Add to that a very common problem with undersized chambers vs. barrel groove diameter. But this of course can be corrected.

My main point is that serious match competitors need to be picky, and pay the price. This is not necessarily the case when tin cans are most often the target.

Also keep in mind that Colt was the originator. Remington and other didn't offer a revolver until Colt's basic patents expired. Thus they could look backwards at the weak points in the Colt design. On the other hand the open-top Colt's had a better reputation for functioning after firing two or more cylinder loads without cleaning. In the 19th century this was often considered to be more important then maximum accuracy.

zimmerstutzen
June 11, 2014, 03:33 PM
Many years ago, I met an old gunsmith, who specialized in tuning silly wet revolvers. He went to the factories and went through dozens of guns to pick out candidates for the treatment. Then he got them to his shop and began the work.
He let me take a few shots with one of his finished project before it went to the customer. &
He had me hitting clay birds on the hundred yard backstop. With a one hand hold I kept them in the black at 100.

Shooting a finely worked target arm is a pleasure. But is the shooter capable of such shooting that the expensive reworked pistol is worth the money?

Just MO, most shooters are not good enough that a fancy reworked pistol would make a different. It is more a matter of calculating the "points off" A lousey shooter that consistently shoots a 10 inch group at 25 yds, will not be improved. A good shooter who can consistently hit a 2 inch group at 25 yds, may be saved a point or two with such a gun.

I am immediately suspicious of whether the rest of Hege's quality is being sold down the river for sales. .

Old Fuff
June 11, 2014, 04:36 PM
I have seen groups that have all 5-shot bullet holes touching the main group that were fired at 100 yards. It isn't that we can't make revolvers that can do this, but rather that it costs substantial bucks to do it.

Mike OTDP
June 11, 2014, 04:53 PM
Back to the OP...

Hege can be thought of as the German equivalent of Dixie Gun Works. They sell a lot of stuff, of different quality levels.

They used to sell a Remington repro, the Army Match Maximum, that was built by Feinwerkbau. Some sort of exclusive deal, the guns carried only Hege markings. But FWB is the source for spare parts.

At present, Hege is selling a heavily reworked Uberti gun under that name. Not the same gun. I haven't handled one, but the German gunsmiths are very, very good. It would not surprise me if the gun shot quite well.

I've shot the Pedersoli Remington, and found it quite impressive. I thought the one I shot needed trigger work to make it crisper, but the basic gun was OK. They should become more available in the next year.

Pietta sells what they call the "Shooter's Model". This has fixed sights (required under MLAIC rules), and is their top-of-the-line gun.

I spent a day doing arms inspection at the 2012 World Muzzle-Loading Championships, and the FWB-made Remingtons were by far the most popular guns - as in 80% or more of the entries. There were a handful of FWB Rogers & Spencer repros, and a smattering of everything else.

ZVP
June 11, 2014, 05:04 PM
No doubt Remingtons can be accurate
1 The Imports can sometimes turn in some good groups, most are good but some can be phenominal!
My 5 1/2" shoots a consistant 3 1/2 @ 21 ft offhand. A lot of it is me, I like to shoot pistols but am only an average shot. Migh even say less than average. My 8" model shoots tighter but I lie the size of the short barrel. It just balances the revolver like a peacemaker or a Vaquero.
I load 35 gr of Pyrodex and lead balls. in both remmies. Seems to be the best all around load.
I prefer the solid frame to the Colt's open frame but I like the way the Colt sits low in the hand though.
If I was back in the Old Days, I'd probablly carry a remington.
ZVP

Crawdad1
June 11, 2014, 06:22 PM
Great info guys!!!
So we have the FWB built Hege Remington and the Uberti built Hege Remington?

But 80% FWB Hege, at the world Championships, that says a lot!!!! :)

mec
June 12, 2014, 06:40 PM
Ive seen the mischief that undersized chambers do with ASM revolvers, Webleys and other more or less modern revolvers. Ive seen cylinder/bbl misalignment with Smith and Wesson revolvers from the 80s (but not afterward) and a few ASMs but have had perfect luck with both with Uberti replicas -both percussion in ctg since 2005 or earlier. The chamber/bore dimensions in the Cimarron Model P WCF revolvers is much better than gen 1 colts and they are predictable more accurate: http://americanhandgunner.com/the-cimarron-model-p/
By the way, Old Fuff is the genuine article. He was probably the genuine article even when he was Young Fuff.


http://americanhandgunner.com/ah/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/cim12.jpg
he Cimarron .32-20 produced “duelist” groups ranging from 2.7″ to 4″
and a best 25 yard bench group of 1.4″. The load is 4.3 Unique with
a 115 gr. Oregon Trail flat point.”

Crawdad1
June 12, 2014, 09:19 PM
I have a Uberti '58 Remington from Taylor's & Company, a class act for sure, that has a dovedtailed front blade. Once again, my 5th revolver I have bought from these people and once again without fail, the revolver's action is smooth as silk with the sweetest trigger pull anyone could ask for. :)

here:

http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/blackpowder-revolvers/1858-remington-collection/uberti-1858-new-army/uberti-1858-remington-new-army-44-8-blue-with-steel-backstrap-brass-trigger-guard-model-107a.html

Look under 'specs' tab

or here;

http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/parts/uberti/blackpowder-firearms/1858-new-army-improved-parts.html

Part #15



Meaning this cannot be used in competitions???

Old Fuff
June 13, 2014, 01:51 AM
I think a dovetailed front sight combined with a groove-in-the-topstrap rear one is considered to be "fixed sights." On the other hand some New Model Remington replicas have been made with an adjustable rear sight and matching front. They, and Ruger's Old Army (fixed or adjustable sights) are not allowed in International Competition.

BowerR64
June 13, 2014, 06:37 AM
There are good and bad of both the colt and the remington.

I'd say the remington is the consistantly the most accurate but it has its flaws.

I didnt think the colt could ever be as accurate as a remington but it actually can. Not sure how consistantly accurate

4v50 Gary
June 13, 2014, 07:33 AM
Accuracy begins with the barrel. Lockup, alignment of the cylinders are the other mechanical aspect that play a role. Finally there is the ball and powder combination (and sights and grips) which are entirely under the control of the shooter.

Crawdad1
June 13, 2014, 10:24 AM
As they say guys, “The proof is in the puddin” I love Colts, but in the World competition as Mike has stated most are shooting the Remington.
I don’t think I have the “eyes’ anymore to keep up with those world class shooters, years of smoking cigarettes combined with my age and who knows what has taken its toll. But I want to be there with something I use frequently, that I hunt with, target shoot with, and blast beer cans with. That said, I guess it has to be the '58 Remington.

I guess my 1860 Army is relegated to the display case. :(

Crawdad1
June 13, 2014, 10:29 AM
Old Fuff, I had one of those way back I think it was the Pietta 'Target Model' and it had an adjustable rear sight mounted on the back of the top strap of the Remington.

My Second Generation 'C' Series 51' Colt in Navy caliber, the most beautiful firearm I have ever owned, consistantly beat the daylights out of it at the range. :D

Crawdad1
June 13, 2014, 10:34 AM
I'll post pics of my Remington as soon as I can remember where I put my camera. :o

Old Fuff
June 13, 2014, 12:39 PM
I had one of those way back I think it was the Pietta 'Target Model' and it had an adjustable rear sight mounted on the back of the top strap of the Remington.

Yup, but it was a bit misrepresented. While an adjustable rear sight was added no special effort was made to make the revolver more accurate. It does not surprise me that your higher quality Colt outshot it.

By the way, many years ago when I was having a good day I shot a 4 shot group with the holes interlocked in one hole about the size of a quarter coin, and a 5th one about 1" outside the group. This was done with an original Colt 1851 Navy made in 1863, held in one hand, at 25 yards. Tried hard but never duplicated it.

While I will concede that an accurized Remington (or similar) may be required to be competitive in some upper-level competitions; I see no reason to think this is the case when it comes to informal daily shooting.

When it comes to some (and only some) ordinary revolvers (regardless of make or style) accuracy issues can usually be resolved by reaming the front part of the chambers so they match the groove diameter in the barrel. Of course then you need to go to a larger ball/bullet to match the new chamber diameter. Doing this (or having it done) is neither difficult nor expensive.

It will be a cold day in a well known warm place before I give up on Colt style revolvers.

RPRNY
June 13, 2014, 01:08 PM
My opinion, for what that is worth. I have shot just about all the Remington and Colts by the various makers in 36 and 44 cal. I am not proficient enough to be competitive at the upper end of BP pistol shooting, so the very best might be wasted on me.

But if I wanted the very best, there are three guns I would choose from:

1) the Feinwerkbau 1858 Remington target. It is markedly more finely made than anything Italian and has excellent sights
2) the Feinwerbau Rogers & Spencer target. The nicest most well made replica revolver I have ever held. Not quite as elegant as the 1858 for target use
3) the Euroarms Rogers & Spencer target with Lothar-Walther barrel. Excellent sights that need a good deal of adjusting for elevation but just not as well made as the FWB.

Again, an opinion from someone who is not a world class shot.

mec
June 13, 2014, 01:50 PM
Wonderful as equipment racing to win matches certainly is, approximating what might be expected from original period pieces is satisfying too. They are not the same. This is from an original remington in decent condition. I'm not sure what shooting position the owner was using but his results seem in line with the use most shooters of the era expected from their handguns. They resemble the results many modern Operators! get with their weapons at the same distance when they are trying hard.
This owner ( as well as Jim Taylor who has used a LOT of original remingtons) found that .457 balls worked best. He was getting chain fires with 454s and put it aside until he decided maybe the larger balls would seal up better. ..They did.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=195822&stc=1&d=1394207167

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=195823&stc=1&d=1394207161

Crawdad1
June 13, 2014, 02:03 PM
the Euroarms Rogers & Spencer target with Lothar-Walther barrel. Excellent sights that need a good deal of adjusting for elevation but just not as well made as the FWB.



Didn't they put that type of barrel on their Remington also? I know a few fellas who had the Euroarms Remington but they referred to them only as 'Match grade barrels"

I'll have plenty of time on my hands so I'm thinking about entering into some competitions with a revolver. I've competed with my flintlock longrifle at local matches and while that was fun my first love and my first firearm of any kind was a c&b revolver. :)

Crawdad1
June 13, 2014, 02:09 PM
It will be a cold day in a well known warm place before I give up on Colt style revolvers.

I know exactly what you mean, but I just can't get the confidence in my 1860 Colt that I need to compete with it. But we'll see. :)

Old Fuff
June 13, 2014, 04:17 PM
Wonderful as equipment racing to win matches certainly is, approximating what might be expected from original period pieces is satisfying too. They are not the same. This is from an original remington in decent condition. I'm not sure what shooting position the owner was using but his results seem in line with the use most shooters of the era expected from their handguns. They resemble the results many modern Operators! get with their weapons at the same distance when they are trying hard.

This owner ( as well as Jim Taylor who has used a LOT of original remingtons) found that .457 balls worked best. He was getting chain fires with 454s and put it aside until he decided maybe the larger balls would seal up better. ..They did.

If we presume that the other chambers are the same a .457" Dia. ball would be swaged to .454" in the chambers. Now the question is (which I can't answer) is, "What is the barrel's groove diameter?".

However...

Dixie/Uberti Remington New Model Army (reproduction)
Chambers: .450" Diameter: Barrel Grooves: .460" Diameter (.010" over chamber diameter.)

Notice these numbers concerning Ruger's Old Army - that has a wide reputation for outstanding accuracy, modern design not withstanding.

Chamber Diameter: .453" Recommended Ball Diameter: .457"

Barrel Specifications: .004 Deep, Cut rifling: 6 Grooves, 1 to 16" Twist. .451" Groove Diameter. (Groove Diameter is .002 under chamber diameter.)

Are any light bulbs going on? ;)

Old Fuff
June 13, 2014, 04:31 PM
I know exactly what you mean, but I just can't get the confidence in my 1860 Colt that I need to compete with it. But we'll see.

We both fit the saying, "Growing old is hell, but the alternative is much more so." :uhoh: :D

Unless it's "Newby Dub-Day" at any tournament I might go to, it's highly likely I'd come in 49th in a total field of 48. :D

But I can have fun, shoot the best I can, and BS with the new shooters coming up.

Your Colt 1860 replica may need a chamber reaming job and a little work on the action/trigger pull, but I can assure you that any big groups are not the revolver's fault. Been there/done that. ;)

mec
June 13, 2014, 04:46 PM
the guy was just looking for a ball that would fit and discourage chain fires. I don't know if he measured the bore or not. Taylor said the chamber openings on the originals were .452 and he found an early Hawes to have .445 chambers- so much under bore size that he reamed them to accept .457 balla.

RPRNY
June 13, 2014, 07:16 PM
Euro arms may indeed have offered the Lothar-Walther barrel on their target 1858. I can't confirm from personal knowledge.

This chamber reaming that is so often advised can be very dangerous. Especially in older Piettas with substantially underbore chambers. Chamber wall thickness on some cylinders is marginal, especially on the likes of the old ASM. They made a pretty gun but made them from a chocolate and tin alloy. Reaming such chambers even 005. - .006 represents a serious risk. Further, a chamber that is .003" or so under groove diameter is no great issue. While the inverse is to be desired (note ROA specs above), using appropriately soft lead BHN 8 -9 will allow for sufficient obturation with any 25 gr BP charge to fill groove diameter.

If the chamber diameter is more than .005" under groove diameter, that gun is a novelty item and noise maker and getting it to shoot somewhat accurately will be a labor to say the least.

Mike OTDP
June 13, 2014, 08:38 PM
.457 RBs are the normal load for an original Remington...and the original guns may have been the most accurate service pistol ever issued. An original in good shape will hold 13 shots in 2 inches or less at 25 yards.

Old Fuff
June 13, 2014, 09:41 PM
Reaming such chambers even 005. - .006 represents a serious risk.

It shouldn't be if one uses reasonable judgment concerning the platform they are working on in the first place. Also the chambers should only be reamed to ball seating depth, and under no conditions should it go deep enough to cut under the bolt notches in the back.

It has been my experience that when the chamber swages the ball to .002-.003"" over barrel groove diameter you'll get most of the best accuracy you can from that particular revolver. Changing the barrel to match the chambers is also an alternative to reaming, but you may have to go to Europe to get the barrel blank.

Crawdad1
June 13, 2014, 10:07 PM
Your Colt 1860 replica may need a chamber reaming job and a little work on the action/trigger pull, but I can assure you that any big groups are not the revolver's fault. Been there/done that.


I agree there 100%!!!

Also Sir, the reverse is true, whenever I heard a "good shot" I would always remind them, "heck, I was just the dummy pulling the trigger it was the rifle (or revolver) that did all of the work" :)

RPRNY
June 14, 2014, 12:10 AM
It shouldn't be if one uses reasonable judgment concerning the platform they are working on in the first place. Also the chambers should only be reamed to ball seating depth, and under no conditions should it go deep enough to cut under the bolt notches in the back.
.

With this I must concur.

Crawdad1
August 2, 2014, 07:15 PM
Here's the Hege Remington with a very good shooter behind it guys. At 25 yards standing, one hand hold:

http://percussionrevolvers.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=ha2r6uk137e99j64d19ej7icn3&topic=937.15

Doesn't say if its an older Hege FWB built or the newer Hege offering.

mec
August 2, 2014, 07:36 PM
dude surely can shoot.

Crawdad1
August 3, 2014, 12:15 AM
I can't verify this as I don't compete in these type of matches but the Pedersoli built Remmy is doing well also in international competitions. But, I don't know where someone can buy them here in the States.

BHP FAN
August 3, 2014, 02:32 AM
Dixie Gunworks used to carry them.I had thought they were Pedersoli, too, but I guess I was wrong.
http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_92_187_189&products_id=4098

Crawdad1
August 3, 2014, 09:43 AM
Pietta may provide Pedersoli with the rough forgings, I don't know. I had a Pietta 'Target Model' not this 'Shooters Model' back in the 80's that had an adjustable rear sight mounted on the top strap but the front sight was fixed. I remember though the sight was real sloppy and the sight picture hardly precise.

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