Texas Open Carry founder elaberates


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CoalTrain49
June 12, 2014, 11:51 AM
After the media storm OCT takes a step back and falls into line. Looks like they just had some bad press but that isn't necessarily a bad thing these days. It just depends on what you do with it when you get it. The media might have been played like a Stradivarius.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/06/12/a-gun-owner-speaks-my-case-for-open-carry.html

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dogtown tom
June 12, 2014, 12:59 PM
Funny that Mr Grisham mentions TABC in regards to Target, but fails to acknowledge that entering Chipotle with an openly carried firearm is a violation of Texas law.

He's an idiot.

ClickClickD'oh
June 12, 2014, 01:38 PM
Holy HELL!

Warn people before you link something with a picture like that!

That AR almost turned me into a FUDD. What the heck?

As for the article, it's just the usual dribble and dreck from people who don't have their brain screwed on straight. In one sentence he's going on about how it's hard for businessmen in a shirt and tie to conceal carry (I do it every day when not in uniform), but then in the next paragraph he's "acknowledging" that businesses can and will prohibit open carry. I don't think he quite understands how these two interact... or maybe he thinks businesses will change their employee policies to suddenly start allowing their employees to have guns on them at work.. Yeah, sure.

CoalTrain49
June 12, 2014, 01:45 PM
entering Chipotle with an openly carried firearm is a violation of Texas law.

I'm not sure what you mean by that but I'm not up on Texas law.

Please explain.

ClickClickD'oh
June 12, 2014, 01:49 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by that but I'm not up on Texas law.

Chipotle restaurants sell alcohol and thus come under the auspices of the TABC and must post this sign:

http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj601/wdlsguy/Untitled_zps3eae811d.png

Open carry of a rifle in Texas is not licensed possession.

CoalTrain49
June 12, 2014, 01:56 PM
Holy HELL!

Warn people before you link something with a picture like that!

That AR almost turned me into a FUDD. What the heck?

:D Sorry, I'm not an AR guy. I can't tell the scary ones from the MAG approved variety.

hso
June 12, 2014, 02:02 PM
Too many self serving logical falacies while ignoring critical public perception and legal requirements in that "explanation".

Frosty Dave
June 12, 2014, 02:29 PM
I thought Texas law was similar to Oklahoma in that there is a 51% rule – if the business makes 51+% of its revenue in liquor, it's a bar, but 51+% revenue in food, it's a restaurant. Guns and kids are permitted in restaurants but not in bars. Am I mistaken about that?

Whether I understand that law or not, I was one of those that took issue with OCT's behavior in the Chipotle incident and I admit I took the bait that the Mad Moms cast out. I still don't agree with all of the tactics OCT used but it's plain to see... I was a dumbass.

ClickClickD'oh
June 12, 2014, 02:36 PM
I thought Texas law was similar to Oklahoma in that there is a 51% rule – if the business makes 51+% of its revenue in liquor, it's a bar, but 51+% revenue in food, it's a restaurant. Guns and kids are permitted in restaurants but not in bars. Am I mistaken about that?

You are correct. If a location is posted as 51%, then not even a licensed carrier may bring a firearm into the establishment.

The other sign, often called a Blue Sign, has no effect on a person carrying with a CHL as it only applies to the unlicensed carry of weapons.

Frosty Dave
June 12, 2014, 03:04 PM
You are correct. If a location is posted as 51%, then not even a licensed carrier may bring a firearm into the establishment.

The other sign, often called a Blue Sign, has no effect on a person carrying with a CHL as it only applies to the unlicensed carry of weapons.

So what you posted above is a "blue sign?" And that applies if an establishment serves any alcoholic beverages (beer, wine, drinks with pink umbrellas) from greater than 0%, up to 100% of revenue?

moxie
June 12, 2014, 03:49 PM
These people should have done a lot more research before they started and they wouldn't be in back and fill mode now.

And, simply because a store owner says your demo is OK doesn't make it so. Bring open carry rifles or handguns, even if they are black powder, into a restaurant and I personally know some people who would be scared, and others who would be angry. They don't typically have discussions with store management about such things before they sit down. At a really basic level, I for one don't want to be bothered in a store or restaurant by any demonstrators, straphangers, peddlers, panhandlers, etc. Please, just go away!

The plastic guns, carrots, etc., are just foolish.

GEM
June 12, 2014, 06:05 PM
He doesn't know what he is talking about. Criminals are cowards in his own mind. Economically motivated criminals will take steps to avoid conflict. Crazies won't as we saw the other day when OC police were killed. This has happened before.

As of yet, we haven't seen OC rifle types targeted for their guns. Taking to high level instructors (yes, I know them) we figure that to unslung the gun, chamber and taking it off safe (the safe way to carry unless in combat) will take 5 to 7 seconds.

The Tueller drill, which starts with alertness and the opponent in front of you, gives you 21 ft and a second and half. This type of carry gives you a radius of 4 times that and the increase area (square law) for your wonderful situational awareness to scan.

Very safe in Target or soccer mom land. Go to that on the street of Chicago or NY subway. Brave men in safe places - what a joke.

Sixguncowboy
June 12, 2014, 06:37 PM
Let me correct some common misunderstandings of Texas law concerning firearms and it is mostly the fault of the Texas legislature. The Blue sign refers to the carrying of a handgun into any place of business that sells alcoholic beverages without a concealed handgun license. It uses the word "weapon" when it should be the word "handgun". A weapon can be an asp, hammer, golf club, baseball bat, screw driver or a knife. The next session of the legislature needs to change the wording so that it is clear.


The 51% sign refers to a CHL holder entering a premise that makes more than 51% of their income from the sale of alcoholic beverages for on premise consumption. A CHL holder is NOT in violation of any statute if he carries a concealed handgun or long gun into a liquor store, Stop & Rob, or supermarket because they are not licensed for on premise consumption as is a bar or nightclub.

Long guns and black powder guns are not regulated by law except as to the age of the purchaser. Black poder firearms (by omission) are not considered weapons by the penal code or code of criminal procedure.

CoalTrain49
June 12, 2014, 07:19 PM
I knew we would finally get to the bottom of this. It looks like OCT was legal in taking those AR's into the restaurant because it's primarily an eating establishment, correct? If it had been illegal they probably would have been arrested. Not a good choice even if it was legal.

dogtown tom
June 12, 2014, 07:43 PM
CoalTrain49 .....It looks like OCT was legal in taking those AR's into the restaurant because it's primarily an eating establishment, correct?
No, as I posted earlier it is a violation of Texas law.
Here it is straight from the horse's mouth:

https://www.tabc.state.tx.us/home/press_releases/2013/20130906.asp
TABC Press Release

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE September 6, 2013

Reminder: "Long guns" prohibited in TABC-licensed businesses.

With the recent publicity surrounding the open carrying of rifles and shotguns, the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission (TABC) would like to remind the public of the following:

Although an individual may have the legal authority to openly carry certain firearms in public, a business that is licensed to sell or serve alcoholic beverages is prohibited by state law from allowing rifles or shotguns in the building.

Specifically, Section 11.61(e) of the Alcoholic Beverage Code says that TABC shall, after the opportunity for a hearing, cancel a permit if the permittee knowingly allowed a person to possess a firearm in a building on the licensed premises. There are some exceptions included in this law, including licensed concealed handguns.

If an individual does choose to carry a rifle or shotgun into a TABC-licensed business, the individual is placing the business owner's TABC license at risk. Also remember, a business owner may ask a patron to leave the premises. If the patron refuses, that individual may be subject to criminal trespassing charges under Texas Penal Code Section 30.05.

We ask that Texans, while exercising individual rights, please respect the obligations of business owners under state law.

Contact: Carolyn Beck, Director of Communications, 512-206-3347

JRH6856
June 12, 2014, 08:56 PM
I knew we would finally get to the bottom of this. It looks like OCT was legal in taking those AR's into the restaurant because it's primarily an eating establishment, correct? If it had been illegal they probably would have been arrested. Not a good choice even if it was legal.
If the restaurant sells alcohol, it must have a TABC license. If it has such a license, and the manager allowed customers to enter carrying unlicensed firearms as reported, that license is at risk of suspension. The only way to protect the license is to refuse to allow unlicensed firearms on the premises. Only concealed handguns may be licensed for carry in Texas by civilians. There is now ample evidence, that the incident occurred and the armed patrons were not asked to leave. I suspect TABC is in the process of deciding whether or not to suspend the license for alcohol sales. The individuals carrying probably can't be charged with anything now because they were not asked to leave at the time of the incident.

Note, the TABC blue sign is somewhat misleading. Unlike the 30.06 sign, the text of the blue sign is not specified by law and was apprently composed by TABC. Per Texas Penal Code Section 46.02(c), the felony referenced only applies to unlicensed handguns which are classified as prohibited weapons. The rifles, shotguns, and blackpowder weapons carried by OTC are not prohibited weapons so their carry on a TABC licensed property is not an offense unless they refuse to leave when asked.

JohnKSa
June 12, 2014, 11:57 PM
As with any newly formed grassroots organization, we’ve had our growing pains. We don’t have billionaire philanthropists who can hire full-time consultants, public relations specialists, attorneys or meme designers. We’ve made several public relations mistakes and have learned from them. We learned that with great success comes even greater opposition.A transparent attempt to feign being reasonable and apologetic in the aftermath of a self-inflicted SNAFU.

He had access to free advice from people and organizations who have been effectively working to advance gun rights in TX for many, many years. He not only ignored it, he called them his "foes" for not going along with his fatally flawed strategy.

Bartholomew Roberts
June 13, 2014, 11:30 AM
I suspect TABC is in the process of deciding whether or not to suspend the license for alcohol sales.

Actually, the TABC has no discretion in the matter. If it is determined in the hearing that the permittee allowed it knowingly, then TABC is required to terminate the license according to state law. So these guys pretty well hosed that RKBA friendly business owner when they made the decision to post those pictures on the Internet.

Scooter22
June 13, 2014, 01:20 PM
Saw that guy on a CNN interview and he came across as what the media would call a "gun nut". IMHO these clowns walking around with rifles and shotguns in public "just because we can" is the best anti gun PR the antis can get.

JRH6856
June 13, 2014, 02:34 PM
Actually, the TABC has no discretion in the matter. If it is determined in the hearing that the permittee allowed it knowingly, then TABC is required to terminate the license according to state law. So these guys pretty well hosed that RKBA friendly business owner when they made the decision to post those pictures on the Internet.
If the manager agreed to allow them to stay inside while armed, as Grisham stated that he did, then it was Chipotle's themselves that did the hosing.

Longguns are not prohibited weapons so the blue sign felony warning does not apply. OCT/OCTC would not be in violation of any law unless/until they refused to leave when asked. But Chipotle's would violate TABC regulations by not asking them to leave immediately or by not calling police if they refused. Neither happened so the license is in jeopardy.

moxie
June 13, 2014, 03:32 PM
Yet another example of failure to do the homework.

Bartholomew Roberts
June 13, 2014, 04:55 PM
If the manager agreed to allow them to stay inside while armed, as Grisham stated that he did, then it was Chipotle's themselves that did the hosing.

Well, the manager violated the law to help out OCT. OCT took pictures that help proove the violation and posted them on the Internet knowing that several anti-gun groups were watching.

Even if you were inclined to be sympathetic to them, stuff like that would sure end a lot of cooperation quickly.

zxcvbob
June 13, 2014, 05:00 PM
Is it Open Carry Texas causing the trouble, or OC Tarrant County?

gamestalker
June 13, 2014, 07:35 PM
A portion of the Arizona law passed in 2010 is in fact correct, however, Arizona has been an OC state without permit for decades, I moved here in 1970 and OC was legal without permit then. The 2010 law was that we can now CC without a permit, nothing changed regarding OC though.

Requiring permits to carry in any fashion, is just ridiculous. I read an FBI statistic that showed a 33% lower rate of violent crime in those states that allow non permitted carry.

GS

Blue Brick
June 13, 2014, 07:38 PM
Arizona has been an OC state without permit for decades

Since way before February 14, 1912…..

JRH6856
June 13, 2014, 08:37 PM
Is it Open Carry Texas causing the trouble, or OC Tarrant County?
Yes.

At times, OCT both disclaims and defends the actions of OCTC.

SnowBlaZeR2
June 14, 2014, 12:35 AM
And, simply because a store owner says your demo is OK doesn't make it so. Bring open carry rifles or handguns, even if they are black powder, into a restaurant and I personally know some people who would be scared, and others who would be angry. They don't typically have discussions with store management about such things before they sit down. At a really basic level, I for one don't want to be bothered in a store or restaurant by any demonstrators, straphangers, peddlers, panhandlers, etc. Please, just go away!


I completely disagree with this. If a store owner is able to ask someone with a firearm to leave, which I think we all agree that is their right to do so, they can also allow you to stay if permitted by law. If you don't like it, you can enjoy the same answer that they get when asked to leave.

As to the article, I don't know the laws in Texas, and I don't necessarily agree with the way they are going about it. I do agree that open carry should be permitted everywhere in the country, and he makes a few good points to that matter.

Theohazard
June 14, 2014, 12:45 PM
Holy HELL!

Warn people before you link something with a picture like that!

That AR almost turned me into a FUDD. What the heck?
:D Sorry, I'm not an AR guy. I can't tell the scary ones from the MAG approved variety.
That rifle is scary alright; it's scary how ridiculously he has that scope mounted. I agree with ClickClickD'oh: "Holy HELL" is an understatement!

tarosean
June 14, 2014, 03:46 PM
That rifle is scary alright; it's scary how ridiculously he has that scope mounted

Ha didn't even notice that...

tarosean
June 14, 2014, 03:48 PM
Is it Open Carry Texas causing the trouble, or OC Tarrant County?


OCT still has pictures on their web site where people shouldn't be.. So both are to blame IMO.

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