Mauser Problem - Light Strikes


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carbine85
June 22, 2014, 02:21 PM
We have a Turkish 8mm. It typically won't fire any ammo. The primers all look like light strikes. The bolt assembly is clean and the old spring has been replaced. The firing pin is within specs. The protrusion is .09"
Can excessive head space cause light strikes? I don't have 8mm head space gauges.
The ammo works fine in other rifles.

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BBBBill
June 22, 2014, 02:47 PM
Loose headspace can allow the firing pin to push the round forward in the chamber and fail to fire. That firing pin protrusion sounds excessive. I think the spec is somewhere around .055"-.065".

Kp321
June 22, 2014, 02:50 PM
Put a new striker spring in the bolt, Woolf extra power.
While you have the bolt apart, clean it out very well and leave dry. Might have 50 years of dirt and cosmoline accumulated in it.

rcmodel
June 22, 2014, 03:00 PM
Look for peening on the sides of the firing pin safety shoulders.

If it is hitting the corresponding notches inside the bolt off center, it is slowing the firing pin down before it hits the primer.

https://www.google.com/search?q=98+mauser+firing+pin&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=IianU5qCBeeJ8QH6k4DwBg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg&biw=1075&bih=563#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=mfmzd27IqdfskM%253A%3BQfRioY-ZEqu_ZM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fimg.photobucket.com%252Falbums%252Fv635%252Fbrimic%252FPicture051.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Frugerforum.net%252Frifles%252F75324-mauser-k98-vs-m48.html%3B800%3B600

What that means is your firing pin isn't the one that was made for the bolt body.
Or you bolt isn't the one made for the receiver and is locking shut slightly in the wrong place.

I don't know of a fix except try a different firing pin.

I suppose you could grind off / blend in the peening until it isn't hitting any more.
But that is kind of compromising the safety feature that is supposed to keep it from firing if the bolt isn't completely locked shut.

rc

Jim K
June 22, 2014, 03:46 PM
Has the rifle been restocked or the bolt handle turned down? If so, check to make sure the stock or the turned down handle is not keeping the bolt from closing fully. The firing pin protrusion may be OK when the bolt is out of the rifle but if the bolt doesn't fully lock, the cocking piece will stop on the cocking cam and keep the firing pin from going fully home.

Note that "Turkish Mauser" can mean anything from a Model 1889 to the Model 98, so a bit more info or pictures might help.

Just FWIW, the inner lugs at the front of the Mauser 98 firing pin are not to keep the rifle from firing if the bolt is not locked; the cocking cam normally does that. Those lugs keep the rifle from firing if the firing pin breaks off at the cocking piece as the bolt is being closed.

Jim

LAGS
June 22, 2014, 03:48 PM
There are a lot of things inside a Mauser Bolt that can cause a light strike condition.
First, How are you measuring your firing pin protrusion.
You should be using a Protrusion Gage and not a Dial Caliper.
Are you checking it With the striker assembled, and the cocking peice pushed all the way forward, Or are you checking it with just the firing pin inserted in the bolt body and the pin sticking out as far as it will go ?
Slop in the knotches on the firing pin and the mating surfaces to the cocking peice can also give you issues where the maximum protrusion is correct when pressure is applied to the rear of the firing pin, but when in motion, the firing pin is not driven all the way forward.
But the most common issue is usually crap like cosmoline inside the front part of the bolt body in the camming surfaces, slowing the firing pin or not allowing it to do all the way forward.
The Mausers function best when the full protrusion with a tight fitting cocking peice to firing pin is at .065"
But if your protrusion is .090" and the headspace is so Excessive that the firing pin is not fully contaction the primer, then be glad it isnt firing.
That would be way to dangerous.
Check the Headspace on ANY Mil Surp rifle before attempting to fire it.
If you dont have a Headspace Gage, at least see how many layers of Scotch Tape placed on the head of an unfired empty case it takes before the bolt starts to get hard to close.
Do not use a previously fired or unsized case, or a Live round for that mater. Pull the bullet to be safe on an New case.
The total thickness of the layers of tape should not be more than .008" to be safe to fire.

fguffey
June 22, 2014, 04:37 PM
Loose headspace can allow the firing pin to push the found forward in the chamber and fail to fire. That firing pin protrusion sounds excessive. I think the spec is somewhere around .055"-.065

There is no way the primer can out run my firing pin, I have killer firing pins. It is one of those .7854 things. But if there was a problem and I happened to get one of those rifles that can not bust one of those extra tuff primers I would increase the firing pin springs ability to resist being compressed. I would take the bolt apart and check firing pin protrusion with the bolt and firing pin only.

I don't have 8mm head space gauges.

You have made your mind up you need a head space gage.

Can excessive head space cause light strikes?

I would suspect you are feeding this Mauser one round at a time, I feed all Mausers from the magazine, others feed them as thought the rifle was push feed. Masusers with generous length chambers can have the extractor behind the case head instead in the case extractor grove.

F. Guffery

carbine85
June 22, 2014, 05:59 PM
Here's the firing pin. It does show peening on the shoulders.
199919
199920
Can this be cleaned-up?
The protrusion is closer to .057. I rechecked it.
This is a K Kale K98. It's a matching bolt without any modifications.

Thanks for your input guys.

rcmodel
June 22, 2014, 08:23 PM
Well, thats not much peening, and about normal wear after this many years of use I would think.

I doubt that is the problem.

.057" FP protrusion sounds about normal too.

All that probably leaves is:
1. Dried cosmolene & dirt in the bolt?
2. Very worn out FP & cocking piece with a lot of slop in the joint as LAGS mentioned?
3. A very weakened FP Spring?
(A normally working Mauser Does Not need an Extra Power FP spring to be 199% reliable setting of
Good primers)
4. Bad ammo?
5. Very excess headspace?



IMO: The theory about single-loading ammo and pushing it in the chamber ahead of the extractor does not hold water.

You would have to have about 1/8" excess headspace to get the bolt to even begin to close with the rim ahead of the extractor hook.
Some military Mauser's will snap over the rim. But a lot of them won't unless the extractor hook has been modified with a bevel on the front of the hook to allow them to cam over the rim and snap back in place.


And if that much excess headspace were present to allow closing the bolt with the case rim in front of it?

.057 FP protrusion would not come close to reaching the primer to set any of them off.
And the rounds that do fire would be breaking case heads off every shot.



SO, if you have ruled out 1 - 4?

Checking the headspace with a set of headspace gages would be the only thing I would know to do next.

rc

fguffey
June 22, 2014, 08:51 PM
Checking the headspace with a set of headspace gages would be the only thing I would know to do next.

If you had a press and dies you could form cases, forming 30/06 cases give the reloader many chances to get it correct because the 30/06 shoulder is ahead of the 8mm57 shoulder, it is a can not miss situation.

Head space and the Mauser, I have fired 8mm57 ammo in an 8mm06 chamber, the shoulder of the chamber is ahead of the shoulder of the case by .127".

Point? The firing pin would have to give up the chase if it did not bust the primer sooner. then there is the extractor, some assume it stays straight and against the bolt, when push feeding the extractor bows and moves away from the bolt. Meaning when it bows it gets shorter.

F. Guffey

ADD: It is possible carbine 85 has a Mauser that has been chambered to 8mm06, if so? A box of 8mm57 head space gages will only tell the OP the bolt will close on the longest gage. If the rifle was my rifle I would chamber a 30/06 round, primer, powder and bullet not required. Before I chambered the 30/06 case I would measure the length of the 30/06 case from the shoulder to the head of the case, after chambering the 30/06 case I would determine the length of the chamber in thousandths. Someone should consider the chamber is 8mm06.

carbine85
June 23, 2014, 12:07 PM
ADD: It is possible carbine 85 has a Mauser that has been chambered to 8mm06, if so? A box of 8mm57 head space gages will only tell the OP the bolt will close on the longest gage. If the rifle was my rifle I would chamber a 30/06 round, primer, powder and bullet not required. Before I chambered the 30/06 case I would measure the length of the 30/06 case from the shoulder to the head of the case, after chambering the 30/06 case I would determine the length of the chamber in thousandths. Someone should consider the chamber is 8mm06.
I think you lost me here. Are you saying a 30/06 will chamber in a 8mm06?

rcmodel - The same ammo fired in another rifle. What I didn't do is compare the strikes between the 2 rifles. I just didn't think about doing that for some reason.

Jim K
June 23, 2014, 08:54 PM
Yes, .30-'06 will chamber in an 8mm-'06, and fire. Of course the bullet will be undersize and accuracy will be awful, but it will fire.

Jim

rcmodel
June 23, 2014, 08:54 PM
Yes.
Back in the day (50's - 60's) there was no or very little 8x57 ammo available in the U.S.A.

It was common practice to re-chamber them to 30-06 length brass.
Then reload it with 8mm bullets to fit the bore.

Thus, the 8mm-06.

So, a fired 30-06 case would fit & headspace more or less right in a 8mm-06 re-chamber job.

But an 8x57mm would have very excessive headspace in an 8mm-06 (63mm chamber).

rc

fguffey
June 24, 2014, 09:39 AM
Carbine85, it is possible your rifle has been chambered to an old wildcat, 8mm06, I have three of them, I also have the reamer. To determine if your rifle has an 8MM06 chamber find a sized 30/06 case then attempt chambering the case. I do not suggest you use a loaded round as in complete with primer, powder and bullet.

The length of the chamber? I use 30/06 cases to determine the length of the 8mm57 chamber, 2 different ways.

F. Guffey

fguffey
June 24, 2014, 10:46 AM
But an 8x57mm would have very excessive headspace in an 8mm-06 (63mm chamber).

Cause and effect? but the 8mm57 chamber length is .127" shorter from the shoulder to the bolt face than the 8MM06, what is the point?

F. Guffey

rcmodel
June 24, 2014, 12:07 PM
The point is that an 8x57 would have over 1/8" excess headspace in an 8mm-06 chamber.
You just said so yourself.

rc

fguffey
June 24, 2014, 12:36 PM
You just said so yourself.

Correct, I also said I have fired 8MM57 ammo in an 8MM06 chamber without blowing the head off the case even though I am told the case will not stretch .127" between the case head and case body meaning the firing pin not chase the case to the front of the chamber. As to the primer, case bullet and primer outrunning the firing pin, I always ask if there is a chance there is something wrong with the sequence of events or information is omitted, a chance? Just a chance, a remote possibility? My primers do not stand a chance of outrunning 'MY' firing pin, I use killer firing pins.

I also said a builder built 5 magnificent rifles with wildcat chambers, his first attempt resulted in 5 case head separations our of the first 10 attempts at fire forming. I told him I could have fixed the problem before he left the shop, I told him I could have checked the rifle to determine if the rifle was suspect as in case head separation when fire forming and I told him I could have met him at the range and fixed the problem long enough for him to fire form his cases.

Almost without fail, the response starts with " Old so and so said...etc. ."

F. Guffey

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