.375 H&H Mag for deer ... mule and whitetail?


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1858
June 26, 2014, 12:59 PM
From everything I've read about .375 H&H Mag and based on comments by forum experts such as H&Hhunter I'm aware that it's a great cartridge for elk but I'm curious if anyone here uses it as an elk and deer cartridge. Maybe it'd be a compromise to use the .375 H&H for both animals but I would think that as a hand loader I could work up two loads or is that over-complicating things? Bottom line, if you're hunting elk and deer with no idea as to which you might encounter on any given day, is the .375 H&H still a great choice?

Thanks.

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Grumulkin
June 26, 2014, 02:31 PM
I've used it for African Wildcat on the small side to Blue Wildebeast on the big side so deer & Elk should be no problem. Pick a 270 or 300 grain bullet & you'll be good for everything. You don't need to bother with 2 different loads.

H&Hhunter
June 26, 2014, 03:07 PM
Think of a .375H&H as a bigger .30-06. It has about he same trajectory as compared to an 06 with similar sectional density bullets. It does about the same amount of meat damage on all game, as in very mild meat damage. The only difference in terminal performance is that the .375 gives much deeper straight line penetration and it has a lot more momentum so it gives more bone breaking ability on heavy game.

I've killed deer and smaller game such as impala, inyala even reed buck with a .375H&H it pumps a hole through them kills them just fine and it does very minimal meat damage even on very small light game. Is a .375H&H needed for deer sized game? No it isn't, but it is perfectly suitable for use on a deer if that is what you have in your hands at the time.

It's one of these scenarios, if I am Cape buffalo hunting with my .375 and I see a great impala I want to shoot, it is absolutely not an issue. If I am impala hunting with my .30-06 and I see a Cape buffalo bull I want to shoot it is a problem. Same goes for elk vs deer except obviously an 06 is pretty fair elk round.

If you'd feel comfortable hunting deer with a .338 there is no reason in the world you shouldn't feel just as comfortable doing it with a .375. The "unwashed masses" in this country will give you some chaff about it as the .375 is considered exotic and different but they have no idea what they are talking about. The .375 has a reputation in this country as being a heavy rifle that is best used on super heavy game. When in fact it is a medium bore that happens to be the minimum that is considered to be just adequate on the super heavies and just about perfect for just about anything else. As my good friend in Africa once said "There might be better choices for some hunting but the .375 is never the wrong choice."

1858
June 26, 2014, 04:44 PM
H&Hhunter, thanks once again for your expertise and thanks to Grumulkin too. I'm excited to hear that the .375 H&H won't destroy much meat, particularly when used on deer. I'll take my Talkeetna on the elk/deer hunt this October and will be working up a load this summer/fall using a Barnes bullet (TTSX or TSX FB) and VV540 powder. Hopefully I'll be able to share some good pictures in the hunting forum in a few months.

H&Hhunter
June 26, 2014, 04:56 PM
1858

I've been trying to get my hands on some Vihtavuori as the data looks great. I can't get it down here. How are the real world numbers with VV540?

1858
June 26, 2014, 05:12 PM
H&Hhunter, I bought 5lb of VV540 late last year from powdervalley but haven't put together a single round yet. I chose it because Tim J at Barnes highly recommended that powder with their bullets. I'll let you know how it works in a month or so. I'm closing on a 20 acre property on 7/15 and will have a private range again so plan on doing a lot more shooting and load development in the very near future.

W.E.G.
June 26, 2014, 05:38 PM
Seeing as how I can't manage the word "comfortable" into the same sentence with anything that has to do with .338 Magnum, I have the same lack of facility using that word in the same sentence with .375 Magnum.

If you could line up in a row every deer for a 10 mile radius, I would expect the .375 Magnum to kill each of them with a single shot.

Man, if you don't mind the recoil, the rifle will do its part I'm sure.

Arkansas Paul
June 26, 2014, 06:27 PM
I've not fired one, but I've heard the .375 H&H isn't that bad as far as recoil goes. A friend of mine shot one and compares it to a 12-gauge with a magnum buckshot or slug load.

I know that isn't exactly light, but it is less than a lot of big bores.

1858
June 26, 2014, 06:33 PM
Man, if you don't mind the recoil, the rifle will do its part I'm sure.


I've shot many, many rifles over the years and my Talkeetna in .375 H&H is nowhere near the worst in terms of felt recoil. It's an 8lb rifle without the scope and the kevlar/carbon fiber stock does a great job of mitigating felt recoil. It really is a joy to shoot.


A friend of mine shot one and compares it to a 12-gauge with a magnum buckshot or slug load.

I'd much rather shoot my Talkeetna than a slug or magnum buckshot through one of my 870s. I find slugs and an 870 to be fairly brutal.

H&Hhunter
June 26, 2014, 07:30 PM
If you could line up in a row every deer for a 10 mile radius, I would expect the .375 Magnum to kill each of them with a single shot.


Once again the .375H&H simply isn't that much of a fire breathing beast. It will definitely poke a hole through a deer but it isn't a meat exploding thunder boomer like some folks try to make it out to be. I find the recoil somewhat pleasent and often shoot multiple rounds from the bench with a hot loaded .375H&H. The .375H&H is considered one of the best DG capable rifles for women and children due to the ease of shoot-ability and lack of recoil for a DG capable rifle. Of course any rifle is going to be uncomfortable given improper stock fit and shape.

Robert
June 26, 2014, 07:44 PM
My Winchester M70 Safari Express is one of the easiest to shoot rifles I own. I'd rather shoot three boxes of 375 than a box of magnum 12ga rounds. It can be a bit stout off the bench but off hand it is a pussy cat.

eastbank
June 27, 2014, 06:32 AM
a cz 550 in .375 h&h killed this large zebra with a 105yd frontal shot with a 260gr accubond at 2650fps stone dead. other calibures may be better ,but the 375 h&h will not let you down. eastbank.

Bexar
June 27, 2014, 07:07 AM
My Winchester M70 Safari Express is one of the easiest to shoot rifles I own. I'd rather shoot three boxes of 375 than a box of magnum 12ga rounds. It can be a bit stout off the bench but off hand it is a pussy cat.
I concur. Mine was sweet and almost MOA in a Remington 700 with a heavy barrel. Shot about a fat silver dollar sized group with my full-bore handloads. I still have about half-a-box of Hornady some-things. I'll check later and see what they weighed.

Grumulkin
June 27, 2014, 08:55 AM
http://www.orchardphoto.com/Encore375.jpg

One of my 375s.

http://www.orchardphoto.com/Encore375Target.jpg

A target shot with the above gun.

Bexar
June 27, 2014, 10:15 AM
http://www.orchardphoto.com/Encore375.jpg

One of my 375s.

http://www.orchardphoto.com/Encore375Target.jpg

A target shot with the above gun.

:what:

You do realize you just wasted 45 years of my OCD passion for obtaining handgun on target precision. :banghead: :)

buck460XVR
June 27, 2014, 11:13 AM
Seems to me, if one is out looking for Elk and deer at the same time, one needs to have the appropriate weapon for the largest species he may encounter. While a 300 gr bullet outta a .375 H&H mag rifle may be a tad bit overkill for the average white-tail or Muley, it is certainly appropriate for elk. Come fall Turkey season, my shotgun is loaded with 3'' #5s. If a grouse happens to flush in front of me, I let it get out there a ways.......:uhoh:

a-sheepdog
July 1, 2014, 10:24 PM
I have a Winchester Model 70 Safari Express in both 375 H&H as well as 416 Rem Mag. The 375 H&H is not unpleasant to shoot. It is amazingly accurate, but the only thing that I have shot with it so far have been wild hogs, which never took another step. I would say that it will probably be fine for deer with less meat damage than a high velocity projectile. If I get the opportunity, I will update this post.

Gaiudo
July 26, 2014, 05:47 AM
I find the recoil somewhat pleasent and often shoot multiple rounds from the bench with a hot loaded .375H&H.

Speaking from the experience of shooting with H&HHunter (while diagnosing a wandering rear sight on a pre-war iron sighted Model 70 in 375H&H), after putting nearly 50 rounds down range over the space of an hour from the bench with full-house loads, I was nearly at my limit. However, the first 30 or so were by no means unpleasant, and from off-hand or off sticks this is one of the truly joyous rifles to fire. (I have from time to time wondered at H&HHunter's capacity for practical jokes, nonetheless.)

The great wonder of the .375H&H is its marvelous accuracy, straight-line penetration, and true flexibility for the reloader. I have loaded 180, 200, 250, 270, 300, and 350 grain bullets, with velocities as low as 900fps using IMR4759 all the way up to 2950fps using RL15. My wife enjoys shooting the low-velocity loads (as do I!) for general plinking and practicing snap-shooting; to the other extreme, while having watched the effects of hip-to-shoulder transection on elk in the company of the esteemed H&HHunter in years past I am likewise assured that there is not an animal on this continent (nor most others) that would be the equal of this fine cartridge.

That this queen of 1911 is once again rising to prominence through the use of modern powders and bullet construction should bring a warm smile to any rifleman. Indeed, its relative disuse on this continent is a travesty in its own right.

The first shot was called a little low. The remaining were true:
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb277/gaiudo1982/IMG_0002-1.jpg (http://s207.photobucket.com/user/gaiudo1982/media/IMG_0002-1.jpg.html)

Sav .250
July 26, 2014, 08:48 AM
If that`s all you have...........it will certainly do the job.

For me, on the deer side, it would be more than I`d need/use. Plus the weight.

That`s why said, if that`s all you have.

Eaglehunter
July 26, 2014, 12:46 PM
I concur 100% with H&Hhunter's comments. I have hunted extensively over the last 25+ years throughout Africa and shot many of all the same animals mentioned above. I have owned and hunted with many rifles in calibers ranging from 243, 270, 308 and larger and without a doubt the 375H&H became my favorite go-to. Much less meat damage than a 270/30-06 on whitetail deer sized game, great penetration, less susceptible to deflection in thick brush, surprisingly flat shootng with ligher weight bullets. Overall just an extremely versatile caliber.

Eaglehunter
July 26, 2014, 01:23 PM
@Gaiudo - totally agree. I found it pleasant to shoot off bench, off-hand, from sticks and very often from prone position as well and for 20 to 30 rounds or so i never experienced it becoming uncomfortable. But then, I have seldom that much at one time with it, primarily because i use for hunting.

@Sav.250 - yup, it will certainly donthe job for anything you can possibly run into, regardless if whether it is all you have or not. Again, as mentioned in my first post, it does mot waste as much as you would think but i do agree it is usually heaver than a standard short action rifle. In A stand that is irrelevant to me. I have not yet hunted in the west and mountains but have done many many miles in Africa hiking and stalking (my 375 is a Winchester mod70 Safari Express) and it is heavy but not unbearable. My 270 is much lighter but i always seem to reach for the 375 first.

patriot53
July 26, 2014, 04:21 PM
From everything I've read about .375 H&H Mag and based on comments by forum experts such as H&Hhunter I'm aware that it's a great cartridge for elk but I'm curious if anyone here uses it as an elk and deer cartridge. Maybe it'd be a compromise to use the .375 H&H for both animals but I would think that as a hand loader I could work up two loads or is that over-complicating things? Bottom line, if you're hunting elk and deer with no idea as to which you might encounter on any given day, is the .375 H&H still a great choice?

Thanks.
I'll take my Iron sight Sako Kodiak .375H&H, or if i'm feeling extra strong, my scoped
Win. M70 .375H&H Safari , hunting in MT., especially being in Grizz country.
Elk,Moose & Deer...and whatever may challenge me for my trophy!

Sunray
July 26, 2014, 05:19 PM
Too much cartridge for anything in North America. Big bears included. So is any magnum. They just aren't required.
I wouldn't consider working up two loads though. Even though it's fun. One load, for the biggest thing you could come by, will do nicely.

X-Rap
July 26, 2014, 05:25 PM
I've not hunted with the 375 but I have with some of the 338's and have taken deer without them being blown in half.
Take a lot of the dreaded "magnum destruction" warnings with a grain of salt, good shot placement and bullets mean a great deal and pretty much any high velocity bullet hitting bone and dense tissue is going to make a mess.

Gaiudo
July 26, 2014, 07:37 PM
Too much cartridge for anything in North America. Big bears included. So is any magnum. They just aren't required.


I've always wondered what people mean by 'too much cartridge'. I guess this is my opportunity to press on clarifying what is generally an obscure but oft repeated phrase.... By this do you mean:

'Too much meat damage'. Surely not, as my 270, 7mm and even my 243 easily do more damage to usable meat than my .375 when loaded properly.

'Too much recoil'. Subjective, of course, but certainly no more than any of the winmags, wethmags, etc.

'Too much penetration'. Never understood this. The ability to take a fully quartered hip to shoulder second shot, while not a desired, result, is a great insurance policy.

'Too expensive'. I would have a hard time paying retail prices for 375 cartridges. But one of the main reasons I own it is for the reloading flexibility this cartridge provides.


For you, what does 'too much cartridge' actually mean?

natman
July 27, 2014, 10:51 AM
I'm not sure there really is such a thing as "too much cartridge".

There is such a thing as "more cartridge than necessary" and with the exception of the great bears the 375 would be that in North America. This is certainly true for any deer. A 375 will work, but no better than a 30-06. Now if you don't mind the expense, recoil and weight, more power to you.

Gaiudo
July 27, 2014, 04:56 PM
I'm not sure there really is such a thing as "too much cartridge".



There is such a thing as "more cartridge than necessary" and with the exception of the great bears the 375 would be that in North America. This is certainly true for any deer. A 375 will work, but no better than a 30-06. Now if you don't mind the expense, recoil and weight, more power to you.



I think that's about right. The 30'06 is to N. America what the .375HH is to Africa: both are excellent utility medium rifles, just about right across the board though a little on the light side for megafauna. I think the 375HH is a touch more flexible, as it can be loaded down to the 30-30 range and up to full-power loads.

As for weight, I have a 375 in a McMillan edge stock that weighs in at 7.5lbs. Note that I wouldn't prefer to shoot 350gn full power loads out of this rig, but it's great for 250 grn loads and below.

H&Hhunter
July 27, 2014, 07:09 PM
.375H&H rifles tend to be built a bit heavy from American manufacturers for some reason. However traditional English and European guns are not. They tend be a standard "stalking weight rifle of about 7.5 to 8.5 lbs. The New Winchester Alaskan in .375H&H built to the Pre-64 Alaskan specs and it comes in at about 8.8 lbs. I put mine on a diet with a McMillian as well she is about 8.5 scoped now.

Robert
July 29, 2014, 01:05 AM
Guess I will just have to suffer with my 9lbs rifle...

H&Hhunter
July 29, 2014, 01:54 PM
Guess I will just have to suffer with my 9lbs rifle...
Oh the HUMANITY!!;)

T.R.
July 30, 2014, 05:47 PM
My elk rifle is a .308 that produces half the recoil of the old 375 H & H. It's effective for as far as I care to shoot.

TR

ZeroJunk
July 30, 2014, 07:56 PM
The best reason for a hunter to use a 375 H&H for deer is because he wants to.

rromeo
August 5, 2014, 09:58 AM
I'm not sure there really is such a thing as "too much cartridge".

There is such a thing as "more cartridge than necessary" and with the exception of the great bears the 375 would be that in North America. This is certainly true for any deer. A 375 will work, but no better than a 30-06. Now if you don't mind the expense, recoil and weight, more power to you.
While it may be more cartridge than necessary for deer, you never know if the last remaining Wooly Mammoth herd will come out of hiding and charge at you.

The best reason for a hunter to use a 375 H&H for deer is because he wants to.
Exactly.

T.R.
August 5, 2014, 09:51 PM
The magnum loading is way too much power for deer. But I suggest hand loading down to 375 Winchester ballistics. This cartridge is sort of like a 38-55 on steroids and produces good energy for taking deer and similar game.

Good hunting to you.

TR

ZeroJunk
August 6, 2014, 12:29 AM
The whole too much cartridge thing might make sense if you were trying to shoot something and not kill it.

Rick R
August 6, 2014, 09:24 AM
I took a good sized whitetail deer last fall with my peep sighted .375H&H using a 300gr Hornady soft point over a book max load of Varget. Hit on the shoulder with his heart in three pieces he ran 50 yards and piled up. No exit wound, little meat damaged, it wasn't exactly what I'd call "overkill" but did a perfectly adequate job of putting meat in the freezer.

This year I've got a load using a 280gr cast bullet from an NOE mold that should be just right. Actually very few of us hunt to survive, we hunt to keep our mind in the real world. And if the pleasure of using a beautifully built elephant rifle or custom handgun or Kentucky rifle or sticks and string is what adds to the adventure then have at it.

H&Hhunter
August 6, 2014, 01:37 PM
No exit wound,

Those Hornady soft points are SOFT. I shot an elk with one years ago and it did the same thing, no exit wound. For any of you guys planning on using your .375 for dangerous game keep that in mind. the Hornady interlock is NOT a DG bullet!

double bogey
August 6, 2014, 01:47 PM
H&H, and Rick R, what did the bullets look like, when recovered. I use the interlock bullets in smaller calibers and like the performance. After reading this I will look elsewhere if I get a larger bore.

H&Hhunter
August 6, 2014, 04:55 PM
The one that I shot the elk with had a complete core separation. The jacket stayed together but peeled back and stopped within a couple of inches of penetration. The lead core made into the vitals and killed the elk. I think the big round nosed bullets are much softer and more prone to core separation in the interlocks than the smaller caliber spitzer type bullets.

Andrew Leigh
August 6, 2014, 06:37 PM
Well tomorrow a.m leaving early for the Eastern Cape. On the menu is Eland, Kudu, Impala, Warthog ............ what we find is what we will take. I am taking my Sako .375 with 300gr. Accubonds @ 2 540fps and planning on using it for everything.

Also taking my 6.5mm in case the piggies are a little far.

So yeah, the .375 for everything that I can afford.

Gaiudo
August 6, 2014, 10:21 PM
On the menu is Eland, Kudu, Impala, Warthog

Excellent. Safe travels and safe hunting.

Rick R
August 7, 2014, 12:11 AM
Double Bogey

There was a good hole into the off side shoulder from the body cavity. I believe the bullet was caught by the skin on the exit side. I had to get it to the processor and didn't have time for a thorough look see.

My rifle shoots them very accurately and I think the Interlocks are quite sufficient for game up to groundhogs. ;)

AKMtnRunner
August 7, 2014, 12:19 PM
I'll chime in since bullet selection hasn't been mentioned. I've discovered some limitations to the 375 caliber bullets when it comes to BC's and behavior on medium size game. The light-for-caliber bullets like 225 and 235 grainers are around the 0.3 range, with things only improving to around .47 with a 260 gr accubond unless you go really big with 300+ but then they're going pretty slow. I'm not saying a 375 won't work at longer distances, just saying the shooter will have a harder time finding the right bullets and loads to achieve the long range effect than with a smaller caliber.

How those lighter 375 bullets perform down range with slower speed is another consideration. I've read enough accounts of sleek, premium all copper bullets failing to expand in that scenario. But hey, that may not be a critical thing with an already wide, heavy projectile. But to me, it looks like standard boat tail constructed soft nose bullets like a Speer 270 gr BTSP or said Accubond are the way to go for medium game passed some distance.

This may matter, it may not. I just wanted to bring this up in case it does.

H&Hhunter
August 7, 2014, 01:25 PM
First lets define "longer" range. Because high BC doesn't really start coming into noticeable effect until somewhere after 500 to 600 yards. I have been playing with the 250 gr Barnes TTSX and the Hornady 250 gr GMX. Both have respectable BC in the .400 + range. My 25" .375 will start them just at 2900 FPS. As far as expansion with mono metal bullets. I have not had the opportunity to try them on game at extremely long range but have never had an issue with a .375 cal Barnes not opening up out to 500 yards or so with a 270 gr Barnes X or TSX bullet.

If you are planning on sniping game at extremely long range I would recommend a purpose built rifle/caliber. The .375H&H while certainly capable of taking even large game at longer ranges would not be my first choice for a super long range game getter. Just like a .30-06.

Gaiudo
August 7, 2014, 02:34 PM
This is one of the reasons hard-cast bullets and the .375 are a great match, especially for the lighter bullets and light to medium game.

AKMtnRunner
August 7, 2014, 06:30 PM
"Longer" depends on how you define "noticeable effect". I didn't mention specific ranges for a reason, and that is that those thresholds depend on the shooter's abilities and needs. I was just pointing out a significant BC difference between a .375 bullet and the common .308 bullet. By just 300 yrds, a 260 gr 375 Accubond has lost over 500 fps, whereas a 200 gr 308 Accubond has only lost about 400 fps. Trajectory wise, it's fine, but one should make sure that their bullet will perform as they intend it at a foreseeable hunting range.

Gaiudo
August 7, 2014, 08:28 PM
Using the ttsx for both .308 (200grn, .536BC) and .375 (250grn, .424BC), at 300 yards I get the following averages out if my rigs:

.308- 2318fps, 2386 ft.lbs, -12.7inch drop

.375- 2267fps, 2875ft.lbs, -12.4inch drop


Both ttsx bullets perform great, but with significant more penetration and diameter hole for the .375.

AKMtnRunner
August 7, 2014, 09:52 PM
Gaiudo, thanks for the real world results. I'd like to hear more about that 250 ttsx. What was the immediate affect on the animal (what animal?), did you recover the bullet, what did the expansion look like, ball park impact velocity? And have you tried other bullet constructions in the 250 gr range to compare effects with? It's just been really hard for me to find reports on it.

In about 3 weeks, I hope to report on how a 270 gr speer btsp worked on a caribou :)

H&Hhunter
August 7, 2014, 10:58 PM
My experience with the 250 gr TTSX is that you usually don't recover them. I haven't had a critter stop one yet. They open and drive when they hit. I've only shot wild hogs with them but find mature hogs to be very good test medium. They tend to stop bullets about as well as mature elk.

I haven't had the opportunity to kill anything at long range with them yet all kills have been inside 200 yards, but I have killed several big bodied elk at over 400 yards with the 270 gr TSX and the old 270 gr Barnes original. They open and drive deep even at that range. I'd expect to 250 TTSX to do about the same maybe a bit better.

Gaiudo
August 8, 2014, 01:08 PM
AkMtRunner, H&H will have much more experience with the 250 TTSX. I've only paper data so far, as I'm moving from the 270TSX to the 250 for North American thin-skin game this season. I'm excited about the numbers and what's happening on paper, but the proof will be in the pudding!

1858
August 8, 2014, 01:15 PM
I plan on working up loads using a Barnes 250gr TTSX bullet and 270gr TSX bullet with VV N540 powder and Federal Magnum Match primers for my elk hunt this October.

Gaiudo
August 8, 2014, 01:31 PM
I'm using RL15 and Federal Magnum primers, in Norma brass. So far, so awesome.

Andrew Leigh
August 13, 2014, 03:10 PM
300gr. Accubonds in my .375 was more than an absolute pleasure.

Kudu cow, Impala ewe and Warthog sow. All heart shots with what I would call zero meat damage. My other rifles are in danger of becoming safe queens.

H&Hhunter
August 13, 2014, 04:53 PM
Yet another covert to the no kidding unrelenting usefulness and no nonsense performance on game in real life field conditions. If doesn't matter what it is from elephant to small game the .375H&H kills them cleanly with very little drama. It is simply a very reliable killer with never to much or to little power.

Robert
August 13, 2014, 11:10 PM
My rife seems to like 270 Barnes TSX bullets over 4895. Plenty of umpf and accuracy.

Pete D.
August 14, 2014, 06:19 AM
.308- 2318fps, 2386 ft.lbs, -12.7inch drop

At 300 yards.... what cartridge is that?

H&Hhunter
August 14, 2014, 03:43 PM
I'm guessing it's a .308 win with a 100 yard zero.

Gaiudo
August 14, 2014, 03:44 PM
Yep.

1858
August 14, 2014, 04:10 PM
I'm guessing it's a .308 win with a 100 yard zero.


Hmmm ... it's carrying a lot of velocity and energy at 300 yards with minimal drop. I'd like to see the .308 Win load that produces those results. Seems more like a .300 Win Mag or .300 WSM load with a 100 yard zero to me. Maybe a .300 Win Mag 180gr load.

Gaiudo
August 14, 2014, 04:14 PM
308win out of a 29in barrel. I'll dig out the full load data when I'm back at the house. Could be I copied down incorrectly, I'll double check.

Pete D.
August 14, 2014, 09:51 PM
Please do. As noted... that seems like a lot of velocity for that cartridge/bullet combo at that distance.
My little ballistics calculator tells me that that bullet would have to leave the muzzle of the gun at better than 2800 fps in order to have the stated retained velocity.
All of my load books tell me that max velocity for a 200 grain bullet in a .308 win cartridge is just a tad over 2500 fps. Yes, that is from a 24" barrel. Expected velocity gain, though, for a longer barrel is in the area of 5 -10 fps per inch.

Gaiudo
August 15, 2014, 01:32 AM
Checked my data, and first error is obvious: I was shooting the 165gr. Barnes TTSX BT, not the 200. Compressed charge of 46gr. Varget. Average muzzle velocity of 2850fps. Thanks for fact checking me.

I guess it further goes to prove the point, that the venerable .375H&H can perform at similar trajectories/velocities, but with significantly more terminal energy and penetration.

1858
September 14, 2014, 10:41 PM
I've been trying to get my hands on some Vihtavuori as the data looks great. I can't get it down here. How are the real world numbers with VV540?

I started load development this weekend using the 250gr TTSX from Barnes, Vihtavuori N540 powder, Federal GM215M primers and Remington brass. The first problem is the lack of data for this bullet/powder combination. Barnes has load data for the 235gr and 270gr TSX bullets with N540 and Vihtavuori has data for the Sierra 250gr SBT.

235gr TSX
Min - 76.0gr @ 2,864 fps
Max - 83.0gr @ 3,062 fps

270gr TSX
Min - 72.0gr @ 2,636 fps
Max - 78.5gr @ 2,836 fps

250gr Sierra SBT
Min - 68.5gr @ 2,615 fps
Max - 74.4gr @ 2,808 fps

The first thing to decide is how fast should the 250gr TTSX leave the muzzle. Interpolating the Barnes TSX data gives a maximum velocity of 2,932 fps but that might not be a valid approach. The Sierra max velocity might be more reasonable at 2,808 fps. Anyway, here's some velocity data obtained over the weekend.

Bullet = Barnes .375 cal 250gr TTSX
Powder = Vihtavuori N540
Primer = Federal GM215M
Case = Remington (new)
C.O.A.L = 3.585"
Notes: Case mouth crimped into front cannelure
Rifle - Kimber Talkeetna 24" barrel
Chronograph - CED M2

72.4gr > 2,687 fps (avg of 5 shots)
72.7gr > 2,674 fps (avg of 5 shots)
73.0gr > 2,676 fps (avg of 4 shots)
73.3gr > 2,715 fps
73.6gr > 2,750 fps
73.9gr > 2,757 fps
74.2gr > 2,761 fps
74.5gr > 2,785 fps
74.8gr > 2,777 fps
75.1gr > 2,782 fps
75.4gr > 2,807 fps
75.7gr > 2,812 fps
76.0gr > 2,825 fps
76.3gr > 2,863 fps
76.6gr > 2,869 fps
76.9gr > 2,875 fps
77.2gr > 2,876 fps
77.5gr > 2,887 fps (avg of 7 shots)
77.8gr > 2,888 fps

I shot the first three loads yesterday but the velocity was too low so today I decided to figure out where I need to be with the charge weight to get to 2,850 fps or thereabouts. The 73.9gr to 74.8gr loads made one ragged hole at 100 yards but the velocity is only in the 2,770 fps range so I pushed on. I didn't see any obvious signs of over pressure with any of these loads (primers, bolt lift, O.D. in front of belt). The 77.5 gr load shows promise since loads either side of it had the same POI but after a long day of making loads and shooting prone and 17 bullets sent downrange the best I could do was a 1.4" 5-shot group with that load. I'm going to try three loads of 77.2, 77.5 and 77.8gr and do my usual "round robin" method next time to see if I have an OCW load. The loads listed are probably compressed from 76.0gr onwards and I don't think I can get much more than 77.8gr of powder in the case.

So what should the max velocity of the 250gr TTSX be?

H&Hhunter
September 15, 2014, 12:17 AM
The first problem is the lack of data for this bullet/powder combination.

Use 250 gr Barnes X data from the older book and work up from there. You "should" be able to get a grain or two over the max Barnes X load with the TSX.

I called Barnes and that is what they told me to do.

1858
September 15, 2014, 01:21 AM
I have the latest Barnes manual but will contact them tomorrow for the 250gr TSX data.

You "should" be able to get a grain or two over the max Barnes X load with the TSX.

Can you explain this? I was under the impression that the TTSX bullets resulted in less case capacity. Thanks.

H&Hhunter
September 15, 2014, 09:56 AM
1858,

There is no 250 gr TSX data, they are recommending that you use the data for the old 250 gr Barnes X. As far as the TSX and increased loads over the Barnes X the TSX supposedly creates less chamber pressure due to reduced surface friction due to the groves. In some calibers the max listed load is 2 to 3 grains over the old non grooved Barnes X. In other calibers it's a grain or 2 less.

Since there is no published load data for the 250gr TTSX you'll have to work up from the old 250 gr Barnes X data. I am at a max load of RE15 via the old 250 Barnes X data currently with the 250 Gr TTSX. I am showing no pressure signs and am also getting about 2850 fps.

Andrew Leigh
September 15, 2014, 10:34 AM
1858

This is a first rough pass in QL. If you want me to get you better data I would need the following;
Average case capacity in H20
Exact length of barrel from bolt face to muzzle
Trimmed case length
Maximum magazine length

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m582/CZ550/1858Load.jpg

I have allowed 12fps allowance in drop in MV en route to the chrony hence the 2 900fps on the QL data.

You are well over pressure and your load is compressed more than I would like. Further complications are that I needed to reduce your powder burn rate to calibrate your load which means that you potentially have a slow batch of powder.

I would not continue with this load at present. You maximum safe load is 74.6gr.

1858
September 15, 2014, 02:24 PM
Andrew,
I have QuickLOAD and according to the software, even a charge of 72.4gr is compressed and over pressure showing a velocity of 2,799 fps with a pressure of 63.7 ksi. My actual velocity was 2,687 fps or 112 fps slower. When I input 74.6gr I get a pressure of 70.1 ksi and a velocity of 2,870 fps so not a safe load in terms of pressure. I'll measure the case H2O capacity tonight but I wonder if the velocity discrepancy is due in part to the fact that the bullet is sitting .242" off the lands (see photo below).

http://thr.mcmxi.org/rifles/kimber/talkeetna/photos/barnes_250gr_ttsx_quickload_2.jpg


The photo below shows the position of the 250gr TTSX bullet when in contact with the lands in the Talkeetna chamber (top) and a loaded round with C.O.A.L. of 3.585" (bottom). The jump to the lands is 0.242".

http://thr.mcmxi.org/rifles/kimber/talkeetna/photos/barnes_250gr_ttsx.jpg

Andrew Leigh
September 15, 2014, 04:20 PM
I used the load with the 7 rounds as this at 77.5gr. so we need to get on the same page.

Burn rates increase with compressed loads and burn rates increase with increased loads.

PS: You really need to alter to your font size ....... I am 54 :D.

I can see from the greyed out box on your QL that you have not calibrated your powder?

1858
September 15, 2014, 04:49 PM
Andrew,
I'm simply making the point that even my starting load is over pressure according to QuickLOAD so there's a disconnect between the results provided by QL and my empirical data. No, I haven't calibrated my powder and will have to look into that some more. Thanks for your help ... and I changed the "font". :D


H&Hhunter,
Thanks for the explanation. Good to see that you're up around 2,850 fps without any issues.

Andrew Leigh
September 15, 2014, 04:54 PM
I have never used QL start load data, I was not aware that they had a start load?

I do not believe that the default is the start load?

Andrew Leigh
September 15, 2014, 04:57 PM
My routine.

Take powder manufacturers data and start with a safe load.

Chrony and feed into QL.

Calibrate powder burn rate.

Adjust load to meet OBT.

Shoot and recalibrate.

1858
September 16, 2014, 02:37 PM
I measured the H2O weight of some new Remington cases last night and the average was 90.7gr with an ES of 0.7gr. QuickLOAD seems to be way off with this one :confused: . All of the dimensions are correct but clearly there's something wrong with the powder values. 72.4gr is supposedly way over pressure with a load density of almost 109% and a velocity of 2,885 fps which isn't even close to what I got. I really need to learn how to calibrate the powder.

I did receive a reply from Barnes with load data for the 250gr XFB bullet that they used to make. Max velocities range from 2,767 fps to 2,897 fps with the nine powders listed. They mentioned that they test the 250gr TTSX bullets at around 2,800 fps and that they like Varget for that load. To keep this thread on track I would add that a 250gr bullet with a BC of 0.424 and a MV around 2,800 fps is an impressive projectile. With a 200 yard zero it's 1.6" high at 100 yards and 7.5" low at 300 yards. Even at 400 yards it's "only" 21.8" low with a velocity of 2,086 fps and an impressive 2,415 ft-lb of energy. This probably isn't new to many here but I can' t wait to try this on a big elk and a deer or two.

http://thr.mcmxi.org/rifles/kimber/talkeetna/photos/barnes_250gr_ttsx_quickload.jpg

Andrew Leigh
September 16, 2014, 04:33 PM
Hi,

your case volume is remarkably low, I forgot to mention that the volume must be measured in fire formed cases and not cases that have been sized. How did you measure. The volume is one factor that has a large bearing on results so you need to be spot on.

My sequence is.

Start at a safe load.
Head out to the range and pop a couple over the chrony to get an average speed.
Enter all the data into QL.

Now calibrate the powder.
a) Click on the icon directly to the left of the powder selection box. This will un grey boxes to allow you to alter the defaults.
b) Add back the velocity drop to the chrony and make a note of your actual muzzle velocity.
c) Go the Burning Rate Factor and alter this until the speed in QL matches the actual muzzle velocity. In so doing you will have effectively compensated for the component differences, chamber etc. Look on the Burning Rate Factor BRF as a balancing number.

Now I must point out that the BRF changes with charge weigh and case fill AND calibre and bullet choice. so your .375 calibration ONLY works for your current set of components and load.

d) You now need to calculate your Optimum Barrel Time. Google OBT Calculator and download it. Now you will see why I asked you to measure your barrel length accurately. Enter your barrel length into the calculator and you will see various accuracy nodes which are expressed as a barrel time in ms.

Check your existing barrel time in QL and compare it to the calculation. If they are different you now need to calibrate your powder charge.

e)Now alter the charge weight in QL until your OBT in QL matches that in the OBT Calculator. If the accuracy node you selected takes you overpressure then select the next slowest barrel time and recalibrate the powder charge to meet the slower barrel time.

You now have a load according to QL.

f) Back to the range you go to establish what your new average speed is.

Repeat. You normally on head to the range twice unless your initial load was well off the mark.

What I did with my version of QL was to calibrate your powder to your actual results. I used the second highest load as it had seven readings and I always use the highest velocity as the burn rates increase with charge weight.

Now that I have the case volume I will redo the sheet assuming your case volume, that your barrel length is accurate.

Accuracy nodes for a 24" barrel;

Accuracy Nodes
....2...........3...........4............5
0.895....1.022......1.102.......1.228

Now currently you are at 2 900fps actual MV. Calibrating your powder charge throws out immediate warning bells.
- As your measured case volume is small you end up with a fill rate of 116%, methinks not.
- To compensate for this the powder burning rate needs adjusted to a level well below the published burn rate in order to calibrate to 2 900fps.
This all points to the case volume being incorrectly measured.

But for the sake of this exercise lets assume that all data is good.

Now this calibrated load has a barrel time of 1.039ms and is at a pressure of 72 000psi so clearly we need to go slower so lets select Node 4 at 1.102ms. We now later the powder charge until the QL OBT matches node 4.

At 74.3gr we are at 1.101ms but you will note that we are 200psi over pressure. So one would need to decide if the risk of being 200psi is worth it or one would need to go down to the next node.

Currently you are on 62 524psi, 110% case fill and 2830fps.

At this point one could use QL to establish which would be the better powder by clicking the icon with a 1,2 and 3 on it. Click apply and exit and the bottom right screen will be populated with the data. Maximise this screen and your will see that your powder choice is only 5th "best" on the list.

Lets take powder number 2 in the list Alliant Reloader-17. With this combination you get a safer pressure of 59 700psi the case fill is less compressed at 108% and a speed of 2845fps. So clearly this is a better powder for your component combination.

I hope this helps you understand QL better.

I do not trust your case volume.

Cheers

eastbank
September 16, 2014, 05:23 PM
this waterbuck didn,t go very far(about 20 feet) after being his with the 260gr accabond at 2650fps. eastbank.

1858
September 16, 2014, 07:10 PM
Andrew,
Thanks for the excellent information. I'll measure a bunch of fired cases this evening to see what the average case capacity is. I downloaded and read (twice) Chris Long's paper on shock wave theory. I also downloaded his OBT Excel tool. Once I get an accurate case capacity I sure hope that N540 is still a good powder to use. I chose it based on Barnes' manual which has N540 loads for the 235gr and 270gr TSX bullets. Thanks again.

eastbank,
That's awesome!!

1858
September 22, 2014, 08:04 PM
Just a brief update on load development using N540. I shot a couple of decent groups at 100 yards and 200 yards this past Saturday but have more to do. I'm hoping that the groups will shrink once I start neck sizing and also build a solid shooting bench for load development. The group on paper was shot at 100 yards prone and the group at 200 yards (same load) was shot the same way. It was fairly windy in NW MT this past weekend and to be honest I didn't have a really stable shooting position. Regardless, N540 seems to have potential but the pressure of this particular load exceeds SAAMI if QuickLOAD is accurate. My doubts come from the 0.25" of bullet movement before engraving which QL doesn't seem to account for but I could be wrong about that. Velocity is around 2,850 fps and the 2-1/2" drop at 200 yards is consistent with that. I now have the Zeiss Conquest RZ600 zeroed at 200 yards. I might try some Reloder 17 loads over the next few weeks since QL seems to think it's a really good choice with velocities up around 2,900 fps but at considerably lower pressure and close to 100% fill ratios.

http://thr.mcmxi.org/rifles/kimber/talkeetna/load_development/09_21_14/100y_250gr_ttsx.jpg

http://thr.mcmxi.org/rifles/kimber/talkeetna/load_development/09_21_14/200y_76.4gr_n540_barnes_250gr_ttsx.jpg

Andrew Leigh
September 23, 2014, 01:02 AM
That is great shooting, a .375 is not always the easiest to get a handle on, especially when prone.

Well done and great progress.

retrieverman
September 24, 2014, 01:18 PM
I've never killed a deer with a 375 H&H, but I've killed a BUNCH with a 9.3x62 and 9.3x74r. They may be a little overkill for east Texas whitetails, but they kill efficiently and don't tear up near as much meat as a 270 win.

H&Hhunter
September 24, 2014, 01:49 PM
I've never killed a deer with a 375 H&H, but I've killed a BUNCH with a 9.3x62 and 9.3x74r. They may be a little overkill for east Texas whitetails, but they kill efficiently and don't tear up near as much meat as a 270 win.


Exactly. The .375 is the same on small game.

1858
September 24, 2014, 08:06 PM
Exactly. The .375 is the same on small game.

There's good and bad in this. Now I'm starting to wonder if I need to keep a pair of .30 cal magnum hunting rifles. I don't have the skill to shoot a deer much beyond 400 yards (from typical field positions) so what do I need a flatter shooting, softer hitting cartridge for? I'm enjoying the .375 H&H Mag so much that I'm not particularly interested in downsizing at the moment. The only advantage of my .300 WSM and .300 Win Mag rifles is that they're lighter. I could care less about the cost differnence in components since I'm not going to shoot 5,000 rounds through any of them.

Andrew, thanks ... I hope to do better!

rromeo
September 24, 2014, 11:10 PM
I don't have the skill to shoot a deer much beyond 400 yards (from typical field positions)
I can't say if I have the skill, but I don't have the real estate to kill a deer past that range. I only have 40 acres, so you guys in Montana must think that's the suburbs.

chemist308
September 25, 2014, 12:19 AM
"Hey, do you see that crater over there with the chunks of fur laying around it?"
'Uh...yeah, Bob. What the **** happened over there?!'
"Well, there was deer there."

Andrew Leigh
September 25, 2014, 01:57 AM
My crowning glory with my 0.375 Sako and 300gr. Accubonds ............. have never got close to this since. But she is rapidly becoming my go to hunting rifle. In my opinion it is an inherently accurate calibre bit people struggle to get accuracy due to flinch on the bench.

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m582/CZ550/Sako/_375-and-7mm-Group.jpg

Exit wound on a Kudu cow at about 60m. Wound is about 5/8th's diameter.

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m582/CZ550/Exitwound14mm.jpg

The heart of the same Kudu cow.

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m582/CZ550/Kuducowheart.jpg

Minimal meat damage and devastating on most things.

gamestalker
September 25, 2014, 05:14 AM
Seriously, I would consider picking a better option than a little bitty 375 H&H, coyotes maybe, but deer?

On a more serious note, a 375 is a bit over kill and sure wouldn't be a pleasant rifle to shoot, though I doubt a deer wouldn't be as likely to walk it off, there are more practical cartridges to consider, 243 win. is a good one such option, and certainly more tolerable, as well, far less expensive to shoot also.

GS

H&Hhunter
September 25, 2014, 10:25 AM
gamestalker,

Have you ever shot a .375H&H?

1858
September 25, 2014, 12:39 PM
On a more serious note, a 375 is a bit over kill and sure wouldn't be a pleasant rifle to shoot,

I shot 30 rounds prone wearing a t-shirt last weekend and could easily have shot 30 more without any issues. As I'm sure most know, when you shoot prone your body isn't free to move to reduce the impulse from recoil and yet I had no issues at all with MVs for 250gr bullets around 2,850 fps. I've shot 25 rounds of .45-70 Govt from my Marlin 1895 SBL prone and gone home feeling as though I'd been in the ring with Golovkin for 12 rounds. The .375 H&H isn't the recoiling beast that some make it out to be ... particularly if you're shooting a well designed rifle with a good stock and recoil pad. The Talkeetna is just that, as was a coworker's Biesen chambered .375 H&H Mag that I shot last year. That cartridge and rifles chambered for it really are the bee's knees.

Andrew, excellent group there and that's exactly what I'm chasing. I won't be happy until I've got consistent 1/2" groups at 100 yards and 1" groups at 200 yards.

Gaiudo
September 25, 2014, 01:04 PM
In two weeks I'm in Northern Idaho, backpacking for a week with elk, deer and blackbear tags. In lightly populated grizzly country. You want a one-stop shop, the .375 does all of these perfectly. I love this cartridge.

Robert
September 26, 2014, 11:58 AM
GS, try actually shooting a well balanced 375 sometime. It might just surprise you.

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