IDPA Draw Creating Bad Habits?


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Captains1911
July 9, 2014, 07:56 PM
I have been into IDPA for a few months now, and thoroughly enjoy it. Like most, I compete with a shooting vest open in the front, and drawing by simply sweeping the vest back out of the way with the strong hand. However it makes me wonder what kind of potentially harmful habits this is creating, considering I carry concealed on a daily basis with clothing that requires the support hand to grab and pull the clothing up out of the way. These are two very different drawing techniques, and obviously it would be less than desirable to attempt the IDPA competion method in a life or death situation while wearing regular clothing.

So what do others think? Do you sacrifice a quicker draw in competion and compete with clothing similar to what you wear everyday to avoid creating bad habits?

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ADulay
July 9, 2014, 08:10 PM
It's a game and it's a bit of practice. Do whatever you think is best for you.

Me? I run with what I wear and what I carry. Easy choice.

Other people play the game on a level of seriousness way above me. Not a big deal.

If your "normal" draw stroke involves using your weak hand to clear the garment, then do it that way.

Pretty simple. You may not become a Distinguished Master, but at least your draw will be consistent.

AD

MErl
July 9, 2014, 08:28 PM
Do you sacrifice a quicker draw in competion and compete with clothing similar to what you wear everyday to avoid creating bad habits?
Yes. I do it mainly for practice & fun so I wear exactly how I carry.

JamieC
July 9, 2014, 08:53 PM
Yup, I shoot the way I carry, that's my reason, (ok, one of 'em, LOL), for doing IDPA. I've gotten some grief for my IWB holster, the first time I shot, one of the SOs insisted I move the holster from where I normally wear it, 4 o'clock, to around to the 3 o'clock spot. Didn't argue, didn't really know the rules. The next couple of times, no problem. I got some grief again the last time I went, it was pretty crowed so I kept quiet, double checked the new rule book, the next time if it comes up, we will have a rule discussion.

Sam1911
July 9, 2014, 10:57 PM
one of the SOs insisted I move the holster from where I normally wear it, 4 o'clock, to around to the 3 o'clock spot. Didn't argue, didn't really know the rules. The next couple of times, no problem. I got some grief again the last time I went, it was pretty crowed so I kept quiet, double checked the new rule book, the next time if it comes up, we will have a rule discussion.

Yes, you certainly would be within your rights to have that rules discussion with the SO and the MD. 3:00 is the very bleeding forward edge of allowability, 4:00 would be just fine.

8.5.1.11. Must be positioned on the belt so that the center of the trigger pad is behind the centerline of the body.

jmorris
July 9, 2014, 11:37 PM
I wouldn't worry too much about the draw, there are lots of other negative things the game would bring into real life.

I don't say that as an IDPA hater either, I am a 5 gun master myself, just being honest.

ny32182
July 10, 2014, 01:59 PM
Ask any of those DM types if they think having a fast draw with an IDPA rig hurts their readiness to operate with their pocket gun.

jim243
July 10, 2014, 07:04 PM
fast draw with an IDPA rig hurts their readiness to operate with their pocket gun.

Last time I looked (has been a while) pocket guns are not allowed for IDPA use so how would that hurt anything??

Jim

Old Fuff
July 10, 2014, 07:57 PM
Maybe they should. After all, pocket carry is very common (and popular) in the real world.

Don't 'spose this observation makes any difference though.

jmorris
July 10, 2014, 08:30 PM
It's just very unsafe in the "controlled" environment that the game is played in.

The reason "BUG" matches are never "draw from "___".

Madcap_Magician
July 11, 2014, 10:25 AM
Last time I looked (has been a while) pocket guns are not allowed for IDPA use so how would that hurt anything??

Because someone who carries in an IDPA-approved manner for competition but stuffs a J-frame in his pocket every other day will not have the draw stroke from practice transferred to his normal habits?

Jim Watson
July 11, 2014, 11:11 AM
Well, let us look at it from the other side.

If you prefer to carry a pistol in a manner not approved by IDPA (pocket, MOB, crossdraw, etc.) or just not competitive (under shirttail), how often do you practice?
If an IDPA straight draw from under easily cleared concealment (You know, like the FBI.) is a bad habit, how do you reinforce your good habits?

Sam1911
July 11, 2014, 11:17 AM
Because someone who carries in an IDPA-approved manner for competition but stuffs a J-frame in his pocket every other day will not have the draw stroke from practice transferred to his normal habits?

That is certainly true. However, while hoping not to step on anyone's toes with this comment, generally a draw from a pocket isn't going to be something accomplished quickly -- not quickly in the "1 second or less" sense that a practiced shooter could draw from a belt holster in.

IMHO, it's just such a different thing I don't see any damage done by practicing a good draw from a holster when taking part in practical competition/practice. If you set up your "speed pocket" rig and are working on shaving hundredths off your pocket draw, then I guess practicing a belt-holster draw might conflict with the skill you're trying to hone in your pocket.

No in competition, you aren't practicing your pocket-carry retrieval but if you want the benefits gained by shooting IDPA scenarios and matches, you're going to be drawing from a belt holster anyway, period. If someone feels that you should NOT shoot practical competition because you might lose your pocket-draw edge if you have to work with a holster ... :scrutiny: ... I'd say their priorities are grossly misplaced! :D (Or, as seems to be the case sometimes, they're fishing for a plausible sounding excuse for why they don't shoot competition.)

Of course you should be practicing drawing from whatever carry method you choose (on your own time, in a safe manner) anyway. Even if that's pocket, ankle, shoulder holster, or cross-draw.

As Jim suggests, IDPA (or even USPSA!) is a great excuse/driver for many of us to get out to the range 4-5 times a month to sharpen our skills. If you don't do competition, well that's fine, but are you driving yourself to practice with what you DO carry? Do you have the motivation to get out there on your own and push yourself hard against the clock to be a better shooter?

If not, then any excuse about the wrong kind of holster is just so much lying to yourself.

Trent
July 11, 2014, 12:39 PM
Yes, you certainly would be within your rights to have that rules discussion with the SO and the MD. 3:00 is the very bleeding forward edge of allowability, 4:00 would be just fine.

Not just that, but for people like me who have bony hips, 3:00 doesn't work ... unless I want to be in pain by that evening. :)

I've got to get the slide BEHIND the protrusion of the hip bone or carrying becomes extremely unpleasant.

Jim Watson
July 11, 2014, 06:51 PM
My holster rides at 3:27:30.

jmorris
July 11, 2014, 09:03 PM
I carry all over the place but wouldn't want to be a bystander at a match that had holster positions that could have an AD go anywhere other than a yard from foot position of the shooter or forward.

I have seen one MA class shooter AD right out of the holster and lucky for him it only made his butt cheek look pretty bad. A good reason to never stand behind the shooter you are RO'ing BTW.

Out of a pocket, with "new and average" shooters, not for me.

I wouldn't expect anyone to RO me from a SOB draw anymore than I would want to RO someone drawing from that position.

Out of a pocket, who knows what direction it could be pointed in...

Trent
July 11, 2014, 10:23 PM
I carry all over the place but wouldn't want to be a bystander at a match that had holster positions that could have an AD go anywhere other than a yard from foot position of the shooter or forward.

I have seen one MA class shooter AD right out of the holster and lucky for him it only made his butt cheek look pretty bad. A good reason to never stand behind the shooter you are RO'ing BTW.

Out of a pocket, with "new and average" shooters, not for me.

I wouldn't expect anyone to RO me from a SOB draw anymore than I would want to RO someone drawing from that position.

Out of a pocket, who knows what direction it could be pointed in...

I won't carry small of back, compresses my spine too much when I sinch up the belt, and I don't like the idea of sweeping arterial clusters under stress...

I either carry at about 3:30 or (if I'm driving a long ways and wearing a seat belt) I swap and carry cross draw.

Crossdraw is right out for competitions though, no way. I also don't allow it in my concealed carry classes. The ONLY thing I allow is 3 o'clock OWB (or 9:00 for lefties) n my classes, for safety reasons.

jmorris
July 12, 2014, 01:19 AM
Comfort carry depends of a lot of things, there is no "best" like pretty much anything else related.

Many might assume the "risk" of carrying other ways as opposed to being unarmed completely.

In competition I would disagree, not an ideal when you know you will be drawing several times the day. Why it is not allowed.

I have carried in my pocket more than a few times but have never expected anyone to allow me to in competition. Not to mention I have no illusions that shooting a "game" would be anything like "real life".

On the other hand I would suggest that everyone shoot when they get the chance and gun games are a fun way to do such. Even if they can't do exactly what they want to do.

johes
July 12, 2014, 09:30 AM
I wouldn't worry too much about the draw, there are lots of other negative things the game would bring into real life.

I don't say that as an IDPA hater either, I am a 5 gun master myself, just being honest.
Agreed. IDPA is my main gun game. It is just that, a game with rules. I know that the original intent of IDPA was that it taught you defensive skills, but some rules and techniques do the opposite. Shoot IDPA to develop gun handling skills only, and to have fun.

4thPointOfContact
July 12, 2014, 09:50 AM
How many people wear their IPDA "Shoot Me First" vest anywhere but at matches?

I might not notice someone carrying OC if their pistol isn't right in front of me, but I notice someone wearing a vest immediately, they're just not common enough for anything else but trying to conceal a pistol.

jmorris
July 12, 2014, 10:31 AM
How many people wear their IPDA "Shoot Me First" vest anywhere but at matches?

How many people would take the time to stow and empty mag in the middle of a shootout? Or leave cover to retrieve a dropped mag? Or down load a gun that holds more to only 10?

I only do those things at matches too.

Jim Watson
July 13, 2014, 01:03 AM
How many people would take the time to stow and empty mag in the middle of a shootout?
Or leave cover to retrieve a dropped mag?

Not me.
But then I don't do those things in a match, either.


Or down load a gun that holds more to only 10?

IDPA was organized during the AWB when the capacity of a new magazine for sale to "civilians" was limited to a maximum of 10 rounds. Not wishing to handicap people with new equipment relative to those with "grandfathered" gear or competitors with a government purchasing agent, they set the loadout at 10. It has stayed at 10 to keep rules, policies, and procedures consistent and comparable across time.

Trent
July 13, 2014, 10:40 AM
. It has stayed at 10 to keep rules, policies, and procedures consistent and comparable across time.

It also has to *remain* there for production (factory) classes to make scores and classifications meaningful across competitors from different states, as many states (unfortunately) still have 10 capacity limits.

EDIT: WOOT! I manged to say that without going off on a rant! The de-caf is working!

Sam1911
July 13, 2014, 11:12 AM
Looking at that from a whole 'nuther point of view -- I've come to the conclusion that the 10-round limit is actually a very positive thing. (Hear me out...)

Though everyone grumbles, practicing reloads and manipulations is a VERY GOOD THING. Holding mag capacity at 10 means you get folks doing that a lot, without going to the rather absurd shot counts (and setup and stage design hassles) of USPSA type mega-stages.

IDPA catches flak from some for allowing "completely unrealistic" stages where you've got 6, 7, 8, 9 bad guys you're going to shoot down with your sidearm. But if everyone migrated to the xDM or SP01, there'd never have to do a reload on any IDPA stage, ever, without forcing everyone to shoot even more bad guys than that. (Unless the MD wants to write in arbitrary reloads into his stages.)

So if IDPA is your practice regimen, be happy you're getting 5-10 reloads under time stress at each match, regardless of what gun you're shooting. When you get out on the street, the extra 7,8,9 rounds in your mags are just that much more insurance.

Jim Watson
July 13, 2014, 12:15 PM
I am one of the "responsible citizens" invited to shoot in a little police league hereabouts.
It started out as IDPA but has mutated to a "liability reduction" format with double penalties for misses and nonthreats.

The MD advises the LEOs that they may load to 10+1 which will get them some reload practice or they may fill up if they fear that will develop "bad habits." Most elect to go 10+1, except for the guy who tailors his loading to schedule his reloads, as is specifically not allowed in IDPA. Everybody just rolls their eyes when he hits P2 and reloads after, say, 7 shots. He is not getting the practice that was intended.

Me? I'm shooting a 1911oid so it is academic to me.

tarosean
July 18, 2014, 12:01 AM
So if IDPA is your practice regimen, be happy you're getting 5-10 reloads under time stress at each match, regardless of what gun you're shooting. When you get out on the street, the extra 7,8,9 rounds in your mags are just that much more insurance.


Or you'll be dropping half full mags for a reload... :)

Jim Watson
July 18, 2014, 03:28 AM
Why would you do that?
You reload when you feel the gun go empty. You can feel the slide lock back, can't you?

ADulay
July 18, 2014, 11:17 AM
Or you'll be dropping half full mags for a reload... :)


Why would you be dropping half full magazines?

AD

tarosean
July 19, 2014, 12:33 AM
Why would you do that?
You reload when you feel the gun go empty. You can feel the slide lock back, can't you?


Why would you be dropping half full magazines?


It was a joke guys.

However, if you are a USPSA shooter.. It's pretty much ingrained to swap mags before slide lock, as that wastes valuable time.

If you are used to dropping at ten, routinely, what do you think the probability is that you would do it with 17+ rounds on hand? Like wise with people running 20+ in comp and slide locking on the street with lesser capacity.

Things that make you go Hmmmmm?

ThePenguinKnight
July 21, 2014, 02:26 PM
Reloads. Check.
Target acquisition from the draw. Check.
Engaging multiple targets. Check.
Shooting on the move (left/right/forward/back). Check.
One handed shooting (strong and offhand). Check.
Engaging from retention. Check.

All this and more have I (and my wife!) gotten the opportunity to practice at the local IDPA matches, under the clock and with others to critique, explain, and make suggestions for improvement. I consider that opportunity invaluable. I understand that a great deal does not translate directly to the real world "gun fight", but experience doing these things with even a hint of pressure makes me grateful. Plus it's fun.

Yeah, there are some dumb rules. That's ok, it's fun anyway.

To touch a little more on the OT: in IDPA I shoot what I carry. Even if I didn't, I still value that variety of experience very highly. Other draw techniques can be practiced elsewhere and on your own range time. I feel it is also a good idea to get more than one option learned. So no, with practice I don't feel the "bad" habits have to hurt you.

waktasz
July 30, 2014, 12:59 AM
There's no doubt IDPA gets people killed on the street. That's why they have to spend so much on marketing...to replace the dead members.

rope2feet
July 30, 2014, 01:10 AM
Do you sacrifice a quicker draw in competition and compete with clothing similar to what you wear everyday to avoid creating bad habits?

It has always been my experience that achieving a firm grip on the handgun, prior to draw, is more important than finding the grip. So I would say when competing, go for all the speed you can obtain. The speed will transfer over to whatever concealed carry mode you utilize.

MrBorland
July 30, 2014, 09:51 AM
There's no doubt IDPA gets people killed on the street.

um...yeah...ok. Are you just trying to be funny or provocative? Do you really believe this?

It's a bold assertion, so I have to ask: You have actual data on that? You know of an IDPA competitor who died in a gunfight specifically because of their participation in IDPA? And not, say because of their participation in other gun games? :confused:

Jim Watson
July 30, 2014, 09:58 AM
I dare say that was tongue in cheek and he just left off the smiley.

There was one gunfighting coach in the pre-IDPA era who said that "The Stroke" learned in IPSC was a bad habit. Same thing applies, though.
In a match, you know you are going to be shooting, so when the gun comes out, you aim and fire immediately. If you credit the statistic that only one "defensive use" out of eleven requires that the gun be fired at an assailant, The Stroke is going to get somebody shot who might surrender, flee, or just have been misidentified.

Sam1911
July 30, 2014, 11:09 AM
Yeah, that was a joke. Waktsz just has a broken smiley button.

waktasz
August 1, 2014, 01:11 PM
IDPA is no laughing matter.

Blue Thunder
August 2, 2014, 08:20 PM
IDPA is still a game with rules. Life has a different set of rules and some of them do not align with the IDPA Game Rules and life's rules can change in an instant. I have shot IDPA and argued with the rules, have a Life Membership in USPSA and do not argue with the rules and have been a CRO. I also have taken several Gun Fighting Courses in the last 5 years and added to my options on how to have an effective solution in a "Social Incident". I carry the max I can as there is no limits on it for CCW or Open carry in my state. I love to function on a 360 degree range that is Hot All the time.

CoThG
August 6, 2014, 10:21 PM
IDPA will get you killed on the streets.

CoThG
August 6, 2014, 10:24 PM
There's no doubt IDPA gets people killed on the street. That's why they have to spend so much on marketing...to replace the dead members.

You must be a fellow Doodie.

http://doodieproject.invisionzone.com/index.php?/forum/20-idpa-shooting/

CoThG
August 6, 2014, 10:28 PM
I won't carry small of back, compresses my spine too much when I sinch up the belt, and I don't like the idea of sweeping arterial clusters under stress...

I either carry at about 3:30 or (if I'm driving a long ways and wearing a seat belt) I swap and carry cross draw.

Crossdraw is right out for competitions though, no way. I also don't allow it in my concealed carry classes. The ONLY thing I allow is 3 o'clock OWB (or 9:00 for lefties) n my classes, for safety reasons.
IDPA should allow junk carry.

Sam1911
August 6, 2014, 10:36 PM
IDPA will get you killed on the streets.
:D Yup! That's what they say! :D

Deader 'n dirt!

(Gotta admit, it IS still funny, no matter how many times someone trots that out! :D)

Jim Watson
August 8, 2014, 01:22 AM
If you are used to dropping at ten, routinely, what do you think the probability is that you would do it with 17+ rounds on hand?

I don't know, but I am going to find out.
I will shoot my Plastic M&P loaded to the gills at the LE league on Monday.
Loading 10 is encouraged for reload practice, but it is not required.

Vodoun da Vinci
August 8, 2014, 11:40 AM
I understand that a great deal does not translate directly to the real world "gun fight", but experience doing these things with even a hint of pressure makes me grateful.

I feel that while some of this stuff may not translate directly to a real world gun fight all of it translates better than never having done it....I mean the repeated drawing, engagement of multiple targets, shooting on the move etc.

These are things many/most folks carrying concealed do not do and have not experienced and in a real gunfight are much more relevant than punching holes in paper at 25 yards. I don't believe any method or teaching/thought process is perfect for all people, all the time, everywhere.

But surely IDPA skills translate to real world effectiveness much better than all the target shooting in the world.

VooDoo

Sheepdog1968
August 8, 2014, 10:27 PM
When I've done this kind of stuff, I've tried to keep it as close to real life as possible. I'm less concerned about winning and more concerned about bad habits.

Jim Watson
August 12, 2014, 05:02 PM
If you are used to dropping at ten, routinely, what do you think the probability is that you would do it with 17+ rounds on hand?

I ran the test yesterday.
I never felt the least urge to reload after 10 (11) after starting with 18 in the gun.

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