Open sight rifle for silhouette shooting


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Tony k
July 12, 2014, 11:05 AM
My girlfriend has never liked shooting scoped rifles, and she doesn't like shooting my mosin nagants because of the recoil. A few weeks ago she participated in a match using a borrowed 1903. First match and she loved it. Now she wants to get a rifle that she would use primarily as a range rifle for shooting steel targets (she is not interested in rifle hunting).

Our range has targets out to 1000 yards, but most of the matches shoot out to 700 yards, so that's about as far as she'll likely shoot.

I'm looking at some of the old military rifles that have easily adjustable elevation for those longer shots.

What are your thoughts on a 6.5 swedish mauser?
How does a Swiss K31's recoil compare to a mosin?

We're not dead set on an old military rifle. I just like elevation adjustments. What about just using a modern bolt action rifle? Can you even get open sights for modern rifles that have the easy elevation adjustments? If so, we'd probaly be just as happy with that in something like .243 or a mild 6.5mm caliber.

thoughts?

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Rick R
July 12, 2014, 11:27 AM
Have you thought about an AR15 style rifle? A2 sights are easily adjustable for windage and elevation. Or you can go to a flat top with match style sights.

I know that there are competition bolt rifles with finger adjustable sights but you're going to spend a few $ on them. It's hard to beat the old 1903 as a shooter's rifle.

Don McDowell
July 12, 2014, 01:54 PM
7x57 or 6.5x55 would be alright, but the lack of windage adjustment is going to make things a wee bit tough from time to time.

aarondhgraham
July 12, 2014, 01:58 PM
I'm confused,,,
You said the Mosin kicks too hard for her,,,
But she liked the 1903 which I believe is a 30-06?

Maybe it's just a matter of affixing a decent recoil pad to the Mosin.

Just a thought,,,

Aarond

.

BCRider
July 12, 2014, 02:39 PM
Most of the battle sights I've got and personally handled were all pretty crude in their adjustment steps. Yes the staff lifts up and a traveler moves up and down but the increments are crude in most of the examples I've personally seen. Like the steps of the teeth in the Mosin's rear sight.

The one exception I have to the coarse notch steps in most battle style sights is on my Lee Enfield NoIV Mk1. When raised to the long distance mode it actually has a screw adjuster for elevation that moves a rectangular plate with a peep hole up and down continuously instead of in steps. But it's adjustable for windage with tools only and is obviously intended to be done only once when the rifle is first sighted in.

I have hardly handled EVERY military pattern rifle though. So there's likely at least a couple that have a similar screw style rear sight elevation adjustment. And even the MkIV's came with some other rear sights that were not as nice.

Williams and Lyman both make some rather nice receiver mounted peep rear sights that are fully adjustable and can be had with match turrets so no tools are needed. Perhaps look at some modern rifle and set it up with a Williams or Lyman setup?

Manny
July 12, 2014, 02:52 PM
I would think poor ergonomics & rifle fit of the Mosin played a very big part in the perceived recoil the OP's girlfriend experienced as well as the lack of a recoil pad. IME the MN rifle ergo's & fit to a typical shooter leaves a whole bunch to be desired, where the 1903 typically fits quite well.

The 1903's ruled the roost at Camp Perry back in their day so they'd be a great place to start. If the OP wants to try and make a M-N fit better, I see Boyd's offers a number of different stocks for them and has the option of a preinstalled Limbsaver recoil pad as well as custom length's of pull if so desired. I think with a properly fitted stock and good recoil pad a M-N might work. Mike Venturino did a test with some WWII sniper rifles with surplus ammo typical of what was used at the time and the M-N turned in the best performance at 600 yards.

BCRider
July 12, 2014, 07:46 PM
For that matter I often see similar complaints about the LOP for stock military wood Lee Enfields as well.

Laphroaig
July 12, 2014, 07:59 PM
As many have said, most military rifles are pretty limited with elevation and windage adjustments. Probably your best bet would to retrofit one with a receiver peep sight with windage and elevation adjustments. Personally, I cringe when a pristine military rifle is altered that way.

I know commercial bolt action rifles used to be D&T'd for receiver sights. Even if they aren't now a days its pretty easy to do it and mount a nice rear sight. A 243 sounds perfect for the shooter and ranges that you indicated in your post.

Laphroaig

Laphroaig
July 12, 2014, 08:11 PM
Something like this:

http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/sights/rear-sights/lyman-receiver-sights-prod7962.aspx

I just checked the safe, newer rifles aren't D&T'd for sights anymore based on what we have here. I guess that technology went out with the DoDo birds in the 60's.

Laphroaig

Tony k
July 12, 2014, 10:43 PM
Thanks everyone. Yep I agree with Manny. IME Mosins have more felt recoil than 1903 because of the poor design of the stock (short LOP? No comb drop?). That's why she liked the 1903.

I'm with you Laphroaig. I'll never modify a historic milsurp rifle. Even a the crummiest mosin. Shooting them in their historic configuration is part of the experience to me. Plus,it seems like by the time you get done butchering them, you might as well have just bought a brand new rifle. Our range has pretty challenging wind conditions most of the time. "Kentucky windage" is part of the fun with these old rifles.

I've considered another AR, but I think a heavier bullet is a little more forgiving at longer distances. If we went AR platform, It would probaby not be a .223. (Well...maybe a 1:7 twist to shoot heavier bullets).

I don't know...after reading input here and more consideration, I think I'm leaning more toward a looking in to a modern bolt action with the lyman receiver sights. seems like fun and cost effective.

OR...here's another way to look at it: We buy her a used modern bolt action rifle, then spend another $100 on the Lyman receiver sight (thanks for the idea Laphroaig). The way I see it, we're still ahead because we didn't have to buy a scope, rings, etc. We take the money we would have spent on a decent mid grade scope and buy a K31 as well. Yep...that's what I'm going to suggest we do.

Thanks guys!

Tony k
July 12, 2014, 10:45 PM
Thanks everyone. Yep I agree with Manny. IME Mosins have more felt recoil than 1903 because of the poor design of the stock (short LOP? No comb drop?). That's why she liked the 1903.

I'm with you Laphroaig. I'll never modify a historic milsurp rifle. Even a the crummiest mosin. Shooting them in their historic configuration is part of the experience to me. Plus,it seems like by the time you get done butchering them, you might as well have just bought a brand new rifle. Our range has pretty challenging wind conditions most of the time. "Kentucky windage" is part of the fun with these old rifles.

I've considered another AR, but I think a heavier bullet is a little more forgiving at longer distances. If we went AR platform, It would probaby not be a .223. (Well...maybe a 1:7 twist to shoot heavier bullets).

I don't know...after reading input here and more consideration, I think I'm leaning more toward a looking in to a modern bolt action with the lyman receiver sights. seems like fun and cost effective.

OR...here's another way to look at it: We buy her a used modern bolt action rifle, then spend another $100 on the Lyman receiver sight (thanks for the idea Laphroaig). The way I see it, we're still ahead because we didn't have to buy a scope, rings, etc. We take the money we would have spent on a decent mid grade scope and buy a K31 as well. Yep...that's what I'm going to suggest we do.

Thanks guys!

Rick R
July 13, 2014, 07:01 PM
You probably don't drive a Lamborghini either but here's a rifle offered in .308 and 6.5x55mm that would pretty much fill the bill:

Sauer 200 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauer_200_STR)

I think the ideal you're looking for is out there but "want" and bank account have to be reconciled.

zerobarrier
July 14, 2014, 06:59 AM
Is the Sauer 200 even available in the US? I have seen it in Canada and Norway of course for $2500ish

critter
July 14, 2014, 07:20 AM
M1 would fit the bill. Good for long ranges, good sights and the weight and gas operation would mitigate the recoil.

Owlnmole
July 14, 2014, 08:41 AM
If a bolt gun is in the running then I would go for an M1917 Enfield. Still not hard to find and less expensive than some other historic rifles, .30-06, the weight mitigates recoil and the sights are much better than a Springfield. You could also get her one of the giant period bayonets in case of zombie attack.

plexreticle
July 14, 2014, 11:14 AM
I don't know what you budget is, but a Remington 700 with 40x Redfield international sights should work. If she's not opposed to using a red-dot, it's more affordable than a set of match sights and easier to set up.

.243 may be a little light for rams. The 6.5's and 7mm-08 are popular in the silhouette community. There is a lot of debate on what the best round is, it's about finding something that can consistently knock down the rams and not beat up the shooter to much.

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