first 22 advise


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JO JO
July 13, 2014, 02:49 PM
well I always come here for solid advise so here it goes,
time to buy my 10 yr old his first .22 he as been shooting air soft rifle in
back yard with me for close to a year with safety rules applied, so I now
want to let him step up a bit and take him to shoot rimfire.
So here is the question thinking of getting him his own .22 rifle to be kept
in safe of course thinking of a 1. marlin 60 2. henery lever 3. single shot cricket
4. ???
any advise would help
thanks all

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ZGunner
July 13, 2014, 03:08 PM
What does he want?

Personally, I would be looking for something like the Henry or a 10/22. It might be a bit big now, but he'll grow into it. A Crickett will be outgrown pretty quick. While the Henry would be something cool for him to look back on and say that was his first rifle, sometching classic.

back40
July 13, 2014, 03:15 PM
i agree. the cricket may not be the best option for a 10 yr old. something he can grow into , would be the route i'd take.

my first was a marlin 25, and a nice bolt action (i like CZs) would likely be my first choice for a youngster. a nice marlin 39 would be good too. the 10/22 would be my third choice.

R H Clark
July 13, 2014, 03:16 PM
CZ Scout if it's not too heavy for him. the stock size is right and it's youth sized but still a bit heavier than a Crickett. The good part though is that it will shoot circles around the rest and even rival a $1000 22 in accuracy. He can shoot it even when grown. I know several grown men who use them squirrel hunting because they are light short and handy compared to a full size gun but just as accurate as any and more than about 99% of the larger rifles out there.

back40
July 13, 2014, 03:17 PM
the CZ scout can always be dropped into a fullsize stock later too.

WestKentucky
July 13, 2014, 04:02 PM
Absolutley NOT the Henry. The Henry has no safety so a cocked hammer means a hot gun. Small hands with little experience would be a recipe for disaster. I once managed to shoot between my toes with one and it stayed in the woods for the day until my father went and retrieved it. It was sold immediately following...and I was about 18 or 20 with plenty experience.

I learned to shoot on a red-rider bob gun and stepped up to a marlin 60, which I now have 4 of. As much as I love it, I can't recommend it either. My suggestion is a single shot or bolt action rifle with detachable magazine and a thumb operated safety (with magazine disconnect or if possible)and always ALWAYS teach safe handling.

Dazen
July 13, 2014, 04:15 PM
My Henry has a safety I'm unsure why yours did not.

Deog
July 13, 2014, 04:21 PM
All good choices. Everyone at some point should own a 10/22.
My favorite 22 is my Browning bl-22, fun accurate and dam fine looking rifle.

OARNGESI
July 13, 2014, 04:28 PM
How about a savage mkii? They have great accuracy are fairly cheap and he can easily grow in to it.

sappyg
July 13, 2014, 04:30 PM
I'm thinking S&W 15-22.

The adjustable stock will grow along with the owner. It looks cool and you can hang a lot of cool kid stuff on it should the need arise. Besides, there already appears to be a well grounded foundation in firearms safety. It may sound like a break with tradition but really the platform has been with us for close to 50 years now and likely a good Bit longer.

What 10 year old in 2014 wouldn't want his very own M4? He'll, now I want one :D

bamajoey
July 13, 2014, 04:32 PM
CZ Scout if it's not too heavy for him. the stock size is right and it's youth sized but still a bit heavier than a Crickett. The good part though is that it will shoot circles around the rest and even rival a $1000 22 in accuracy. He can shoot it even when grown. I know several grown men who use them squirrel hunting because they are light short and handy compared to a full size gun but just as accurate as any and more than about 99% of the larger rifles out there.

I totally agree. My grandson was shooting one when he was 7. When they need a bigger stock there is one available. As far as fit, finish, and accuracy, they are hard to beat.

Crunchy Frog
July 13, 2014, 04:36 PM
Bolt action rifle for sure.

Look at the Ruger American Rimfire, compact model.

Coal Dragger
July 13, 2014, 04:39 PM
Either the CZ Scout or the Ruger American Rimfire. Both are real rifles, and both can be put into full sized stock configurations when the young man grows into his full frame.

greyling22
July 13, 2014, 04:56 PM
I'm with zgunner. the henry will always be fun to have around, and a 10/22 is great as well. He will probably appreciate having a 10/22 more as an onder person than the others. Nice thing about a 10/22 is that there are zillions of takeoff wood stocks kicking around, so you can chop one short and replace it with a full size gun later on. The new triggers on the 10/22 blow though. They can be fixed, but out of the box, eew.

JO JO
July 13, 2014, 05:21 PM
good advise I can see the cricket getting old fast, something to grow into would for
sure be best If I give him the choice he would pick the 15-22,
I guess a magazine can always be loaded to say 1 to 5 rounds,
definitely want to pick on that will be fun for now and into the future if possible
thanks all

tuj
July 13, 2014, 05:58 PM
go with a bolt action instead of a lever or a semi. The longer time to cycle the action will teach one to place their shots more accurately.

NCsmitty
July 13, 2014, 06:43 PM
As mentioned, a bolt action that handles S,L & LR is preferable for learning, and I think that a single stroke pellet rifle might be a better choice for now, with 22 Rimfire ammo double and triple the cost of a couple years ago, and sometimes hard to find, so I understand.
I have several 22 RF to chose from, but I I usually grab my Marlin single shot bolt action when I need to dispatch a varmint, because it's simple, safe and accurate. I have no children around, but I never have a loaded rifle sitting unattended.


NCsmitty

Ed Ames
July 13, 2014, 07:01 PM
What outcome are you hoping for? Beyond basic safety, is there something you do that you would like to bring him into doing too? Some attitude you want to induce? Figure out your motivation (and his) and you are more likely to pick a winner.

Hunting or plinking/target shooting? I think the CZ would be great.

The philosophy of gun ownership as a civic responsibility? As in will you want to take him to an Appleseed type event? I would suggest a 10/22 or Marlin 795. Magazine fed semi auto with peep sights available.

CAS or reenactment type shooting? The lever gun.

Familiarity with modern weapons? AR with .22 upper.

Etc...there are many best choices depending on what you (and, at 10, the boy) want out of this.

Not the Cricket though. 5 years ago, sure, but not at 10.

Scot43
July 13, 2014, 07:31 PM
A 10-22 is probably the best overall choice. First, the price is reasonable, and secondly, there are tons goodies to modify and customize a 10-22 later on should there be a desire to do so.

Longhorn 76
July 13, 2014, 08:04 PM
No way I would get a repeater for a year or so, until they learn safety and marksmanship.

mljdeckard
July 13, 2014, 08:07 PM
Give him a 10/22 now.

Give him the magazines for it when he turns 15. :D

ECVMatt
July 13, 2014, 08:09 PM
I have a CZ Scout and a 10/22 for my 8 y/o son. I was worried about him getting bored on the CZ, but he actually prefers it to the 10/22. I would include him in the decision making as well. I agree with others about the Cricket, it will be too small.

Jlr2267
July 13, 2014, 08:11 PM
I vote CZ Scout 1st, Henry Lever 2nd...maybe narrow it down to 2 or 3 and let him choose

mgkdrgn
July 13, 2014, 08:52 PM
Any of those would be a good choice, with maybe the Cricket at the bottom of the list (outgrow it quick).

NOBODY ever got fired by getting a Marlin 60. Tough, accurate, no mag to loose, and his grand kids will be shooting it if he takes care of it well.

AKElroy
July 13, 2014, 10:31 PM
Marlin 60. I learned on a tube fed Stevens semi auto, and never once had an accidentally loaded chamber. With the 10/22, or any DBM for that matter, he may leave a surprise round in the chamber with the mag pulled. I've done it with mine, recently in fact, and I've been shooting for 40+ years.

I would not be letting a 10 year old out of sight on his own until I had been with him for lots of practice and training. My son is 12, turning 13 in a few weeks, and I am just now comfortable letting him carry a .22 on his own. I am not worried about him shooting himself, but poor target judgement was my greater concern.

I did allow him to carry his .30-30 around the property over a year ago, but the rules were plain; if I hear that rifle, I better find a dead pig. No pig, no more gun. He never fired it, at least not when he was alone.

MedWheeler
July 14, 2014, 08:11 AM
I just got a Henry the other day. Love its feel and action, but haven't shot it yet.

It does indeed have a safety, but it would require some skill on the part of a child to operate. To engage it from a hammer-cocked position, one must restrain the hammer while giving a quick and gentle press on the trigger, then quickly releasing the trigger and lowering the hammer. Done properly, the hammer will stop just shy of full-rest. This is the "safe" position. From the "rest" position, the safety is engaged by pulling the hammer back to the first click, which is less than 1/4 inch.

I like the 10/22 idea for this situation, as it is easily made a single-shot by removing the magazine, and because it can "grow" with the boy's tastes and likes for decades to come.

With supervision, though, the Henry would be an excellent choice as well. Plenty of teeth have been cut on a good lever-action rimfire.

MedWheeler
July 14, 2014, 08:18 AM
WestKentucky writes:

Absolutley NOT the Henry. The Henry has no safety so a cocked hammer means a hot gun. Small hands with little experience would be a recipe for disaster. I once managed to shoot between my toes with one and it stayed in the woods for the day until my father went and retrieved it. It was sold immediately following...and I was about 18 or 20 with plenty experience

I read your account of this incident in another thread. You got raked over the coals by respondents over your muzzle direction in that thread.

The Henry does have a safety, but (as I mention above) I agree that it would be tricky for young hands (those of an experienced 18-20 year old are another story.)

jrdolall
July 14, 2014, 08:41 AM
My personal choice for my kids, less than 10 YO at the time, was to "give" them a bolt action .22. Of course I already had the guns so I gave them to each kid and then 3 years later gave them to the next kid. By the time they were 10 they had moved to a 10/22. We tried a little pink Cricket and my daughter shot it about 10 times.

I personally really like getting kids started with a bolt. That's probably because it's how I started out but I think it helps them in the long run because they have to think about THIS shot, reload, and then think about the next shot.

bannockburn
July 14, 2014, 08:51 AM
See what your son likes (single shot, pump, lever action, semi-auto), and what fits him the best. The only other consideration my son had was that eventually he wanted to mount a scope on it.

GarySTL
July 14, 2014, 09:33 AM
Had my great nephews shooting two of my Henry's over the fourth of July. They ranged in age from 11 to 18 and none had issues with the safety once it was explained. But we adults ensured that strict muzzle decipline was observed at all times. The 7 year old only shot the RAR bolt gun.

maxxhavoc
July 14, 2014, 07:03 PM
I have and enjoy 10/22's, but I don't think they are a go-to gun anymore unless you plan on customizing.

The Marlin 795 does what the stock 10/22 does, cheaper.

As far as recommendations for a starting shooter, Savage Mk II hands down. It is fun to shoot and very accurate. I bought one for my daughter and take it to the range almost every time-whether she goes or not.

I6turbo
July 14, 2014, 07:16 PM
As the owner of about 15 rimfires including the CZ 452 Scout, and the parent of 6- and a 9-year olds who shoot, I recommend a CZ 452 Trainer for you guys. A normal 10-year old is big enough to shoot the Trainer. While the Scout would temporarily be a better choice for him fit wise, the Trainer is much quieter, has MUCH better iron sights, offers a longer sighting radius, AND you will love shooting it as well. The Scout is very nice, and I also can recommend it so long as you don't mind your son kind of "outgrowing" it pretty soon and are open to buying a "full size" CZ when he realizes that they exist. Don't get me wrong, the Scout is a lot of fun even for an adult, but the Trainer is an outstanding gun. Of all the rimfires I have, it's my favorite, all things considered.

Scout
http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh640/I6T/CZ452Scoutright_1_zps35220919.jpg

Trainer
http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh640/I6T/CZ452SMTright_3_smallfile_zpsc7b81be9.jpg

Scout in Ultra Lux stock
http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh640/I6T/UltraScout_1_zpsd5523c27.jpg

Also, be warned, your first CZ is likely NOT to be your last. :D

Reloadron
July 14, 2014, 07:17 PM
The Ruger 10/22 and Marlin Model 60 are always popular answers in threads like this and I like both. However, my suggestion in these threads always remains the same. I suggest a good used bolt gun like the Remington 510, 511, 512 or other similar rifles. There are also excellent new bolt guns like some of the CZ rifles as mentioned. Depends on what you want to spend.

I favor the bolt guns simply because I feel they are a better rifle to develop good marksmanship skills with. I am not saying the same can't be done with a Ruger 10/22 or Marlin 60 or any similar rifle, just saying a good old bolt action gun is the better choice in my opinion.

After looking at some of the CZ rifles I feel a need to have one. :)

Just My Take
Ron

d2wing
July 14, 2014, 07:43 PM
I bought a Remington 514 youth single shot for my grandson and he is very happy with it. It is the same as a Marlin bolt action. I considered the Cricket and the Henry but the Marlin/Remington was much better quality action with a usable safety. I think Savage makes a youth model,as well. Do not start them on a gun they will grow into as this will foster poor posture and handling habits that will be difficult to correct later. A lot of bad shots were started wrong as kids.
By the time they get to gun classes at age 12 they are often unwilling or unable to unlearn what dad taught them. And often a instructor is unable to spend time needed to correct them.

R H Clark
July 14, 2014, 07:46 PM
Just using iron sights the CZ Trainer might be a good choice depending on how well he can reach the trigger but I think the Trainers stock would be too long for him to get proper eye relief with a scope. I do love the tangent sights of the Trainer and highly recommend getting one before they are gone. I do not think the 452 Scout has been replaced by the 455 yet.

Best just get both. The Scout only costs about $300 which is just a couple tanks of gas difference in price between it and some of the lesser guns mentioned in this thread. The CZ will hold it's value and might even gain some in 10 years where the Marlin 60 will not, even though it is a decent plinking gun. The CZ is better in every aspect, accuracy, trigger "after tweeking" and resale.

Stephen1956
July 14, 2014, 09:12 PM
I've had 3, 10/22's and have sold them all I have a Remington 597 with a bull barrel and have free floated the barrel. I have yet to find a 10/22 that can out shoot it, as for S&W 15-22 I'd say no because where are you going to find the .22 ammo for it my friend has one hanging in a gun rack because of the .22 shortage. The Marlin is a good choice first rifle I ever bought for son. And it's 17 years old and still shoots like it was new.

danez71
July 14, 2014, 09:57 PM
well I always come here for solid advise so here it goes,
time to buy my 10 yr old his first .22 he as been shooting air soft rifle in
back yard with me for close to a year with safety rules applied, so I now
want to let him step up a bit and take him to shoot rimfire.
So here is the question thinking of getting him his own .22 rifle to be kept
in safe of course thinking of a 1. marlin 60 2. henery lever 3. single shot cricket
4. ???
any advise would help
thanks all

Keeping the OP in mind.......

Of those three, Id get the Marlin 60 with-out thinking twice.


Opening it up a bit, Id seriously consider the 10/22 because he wont out grow it as easily as the 60 and the customization factor.

For a bolt, a Ruger American 22 unless you want to spend more or look a lot harder.

Field Tester
July 14, 2014, 10:18 PM
How about a savage mkii? They have great accuracy are fairly cheap and he can easily grow in to it.
I'll 2nd this if you're looking for a bolt action. 5 round mag, very accurate and light weight. I love shooting my fiancees.
Big plus is the different colored fiber optic sights to help youngsters learn to control their accuracy.

I6turbo
July 14, 2014, 10:24 PM
Just using iron sights the CZ Trainer might be a good choice depending on how well he can reach the trigger but I think the Trainers stock would be too long for him to get proper eye relief with a scope.

The stock length might possibly be an issue for eye relief depending upon the 10-year old, the scope, and the setup, but my average-size 9-year-old shoots this one with no issues from a bench or a standing rest. We recently had the Scout and this Lux (same exact dimensions as a Trainer) out for a week of shooting, both scoped, and he chose to fire the Scout 30 times at most, but several hundred rounds out of this one. Trigger reach is definitely not an issue.
http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh640/I6T/452LuxleftsidewSII_zps45058cd0.jpg


Best just get both. The Scout only costs about $300 which is just a couple tanks of gas difference in price between it and some of the lesser guns mentioned in this thread. The CZ will hold it's value and might even gain some in 10 years where the Marlin 60 will not, even though it is a decent plinking gun. The CZ is better in every aspect, accuracy, trigger "after tweeking" and resale.
Best advice yet! :D

Field Tester
July 14, 2014, 10:27 PM
Everyone suggesting to load a 10/22 without the magazine, please stop.
Ruger states in the manual (if any of those suggesting bothered to read) that this is horrible for the firearm.

Also, those suggesting a Ruger American, keep in mind that there are no "iron sights" on the firearm. It's only set up to accept a scope.

Ed Ames
July 14, 2014, 10:54 PM
Also, those suggesting a Ruger American, keep in mind that there are no "iron sights" on the firearm. It's only set up to accept a scope.

Are you saying they are plastic sights or what? It may accept a scope, but "only" is incorrect.

http://www.ruger.com/products/americanRimfireCompact/images/8303.jpg

Field Tester
July 14, 2014, 11:28 PM
Are you saying they are plastic sights or what? It may accept a scope, but "only" is incorrect.

http://www.ruger.com/products/americanRimfireCompact/images/8303.jpg
My apologies, I was misinformed. I have a friend that just bought one and he said his didn't have any. I'll have to call him.

I also bought one in .30-06 and I know for a fact that didn't have sights.
Thanks for the correction!

R H Clark
July 14, 2014, 11:46 PM
Get whatever you want but I tell you the CZ 452 " I own 2" will shoot with my $1000 Anschutz and is about 90% as nice in fit and finish. It's not a plastic piece of CNC garbage.

Manny
July 15, 2014, 12:08 AM
The Ruger American Rimfire carbine comes with the short shock with low comb for the nice fiber optic sights and a higher comb for a scope if so desired. It also has a very nice trigger and can grow with him be installing the longer length of pull stock sections. The 10/22 50th anniversary model has an American style stock that allows for fitting the rifle to the youngster properly even as they grow.

Either one would make a great start to get a young shooter involved in our beloved sport...;)

BigBL87
July 15, 2014, 12:17 AM
I love my Savage Mark II. Easy to clean, more accurate than me, and cheap.

Ed Ames
July 15, 2014, 12:32 AM
The 10/22 50th anniversary model


I had never seen that model until this evening. I may break down and finally buy a 10/22. Apart from old Mausers and other historical oddities, my iron sighted rifles all have peep sights.

arspeukinen
July 15, 2014, 01:51 AM
S&W 15-22. Light, versatile, works. Just add the price of a good trigger.

DM~
July 16, 2014, 09:38 AM
I own many of the 22's mentioned here, and more...

If I line them up, the kids go for my Henry's!!

I'd buy him a Henry lever and teach him how to properly use a hammer gun. He has to learn sometime, and learning while he's young is a good thing!

The new shooters here, took to it very quickly!

DM

Joe the Redneck
July 16, 2014, 09:41 PM
I would get a Ruger 10/22. He'll have it forever. You can load one round at a time in the mag if that is an issue.

I think it offers a good combination of low price, durability, accuracy, and after market stocks.

I avoided the 10/22 for years because I thought it was "too popular" to be anything good. Then I bought one. No regrets.

twofifty
July 16, 2014, 10:09 PM
well I always come here for solid advise so here it goes,
time to buy my 10 yr old his first .22 he as been shooting air soft rifle in
back yard with me for close to a year with safety rules applied, so I now
want to let him step up a bit and take him to shoot rimfire.
So here is the question thinking of getting him his own .22 rifle to be kept
in safe of course thinking of a 1. marlin 60 2. henery lever 3. single shot cricket
4. ???
any advise would help
thanks all
One step up from airsoft would be to a pellet rifle. :(

But at 10 years of age it is a bit too late for that now, esp. considering he's demonstrated safe airsoft handling. So I'd take two steps up and go for the 22. :)

If your goals are to teach marksmanship and firearms knowledge, a repeater first used as a single shot as others have suggested is the way to go. It will be interesting to see how the see-saw between learning marksmanship and entertainment blasting plays out.

Will you be shooting at a home range, at a club or commercial range, or on public lands? Let us know how your son does.

sauer1911
July 16, 2014, 11:03 PM
10-22 is a classic, many, many out there and there is a whole industry to modify it aftermarket.

Great price, they go on sale a lot. Normally around $219, on sale below $200!

You cant beat it. it is the bulletproof trainer for your kids.

be safe

twofifty
July 16, 2014, 11:45 PM
Thing about a 10/22 or any semi auto is that the young shooter is almost completely insulated from what is actually going on in a rifle. All he does is load the mag, charge the chamber, then everything happens in the blink of an eye - like magic.

But guns aren't magic. Well, at least they aren't to competent owners.

With a bolt repeater, you have easy visual access to everything that is going on, and you're the one doing the doing. Your fingers work the bolt, you see the round stripped from the magazine, tilt up and be chambered. You can usually see a cocking indicator. Your fingers lift the bolt and pull it back to eject the case, and so on.

With a bolt repeater, the child can be easily taught how to strip the stock and do a good cleaning. You can take the bolt apart to see the striker/firing pin, extractor, ejector. You can see the sear surfaces. A 10/22 is a pita to clean compared to the bolt repeater.

A bolt repeater is like a stick shift car.
A 10/22 is a car with an auto transmission.

Which vehicle would you rather your son learn to drive on? The one that teaches him that engine power has to be coupled and uncoupled at optimal times from the drivetrain, or the one that will keep his mind in D for Drive for the rest of his life?

;)

p.s. Later on he can save his own money and get a 10/22 - they are fun guns.

Ed Ames
July 17, 2014, 12:09 AM
I don't buy the "bolt action is like a manual transmission" argument. Maybe if a car had only one gear they would be similar. The manual transmission requires the user to make decisions. Not just when to shift, but what gear to use. A bolt action rifle does not.

I don't buy the "they will see what is happening with a bolt, but not with a semi-auto" argument either. Some kids will see what is happening,some kids won't. The difference is in the kid's nature and conditioning, not in the type of rifle they shoot.

I do think bolt guns are a good choice for many shooters. I have yet to find a .22 I enjoy and benefit from shooting as much as my old (pre-WWII) bolt .22. Then again I wouldn't take that tube fed bolt gun to an Appleseed event.

Horses for courses is I assume apt here....

mastergunner
July 17, 2014, 12:52 AM
My thought would be similar to ruger American rifle, have one in .270 it is great for the price. I started with a .22 single shot hated that gun not much chance of a follow up shot, but the ground hogs loved it. Start with a nice bolt action for accuracy and learning ballistics at different ranges and you can't go wrong with a 10/22 later on, can be made into a great little AR platform.

sauer1911
July 17, 2014, 11:48 AM
I would get the 10-22, then show the youngun's how it works, take it apart, show them how to clean it.

You can then compare the semi auto features to single shot bolt action rifles. You can then explain how the 10-22 also relates to newer more popular other semi autos in pistols, etc.

Educating the ins and outs of ANY gun is important. I just feel that your better off instructing and explaining with a more modern rifle.

btw, no one said you have to load the box magazine to the max. You can just put in 1 bullet at a time, load shoot and reload. Then you will realize why you got the Ruger 10-22 in the first place!

be safe

C.R.
July 19, 2014, 10:43 AM
maybe something like the savage/stevens favorite it is a neet single shot lever action simple to use and classy looking

teetertotter
July 19, 2014, 03:33 PM
well I always come here for solid advise so here it goes,
time to buy my 10 yr old his first .22 he as been shooting air soft rifle in
back yard with me for close to a year with safety rules applied, so I now
want to let him step up a bit and take him to shoot rimfire.
So here is the question thinking of getting him his own .22 rifle to be kept
in safe of course thinking of a 1. marlin 60 2. henery lever 3. single shot cricket
4. ???
any advise would help
thanks all
It sounds like you want an adult size .22 rifle for a 10 year old boy, who must be a monster of a boy. My suggestion if for a 10 year old, the Savage Cub or Youth size .22LR. Bolt single shot. It is like golf, you don't by adult golf clubs for a 10 year old. You buy junior clubs at his age or normal size.

We have a couple 12 year old girls shooting SB Silhouette and prefer the scoped Savage Cub rifle. They have tried the Youth size and prefer the smaller Cub. Besides being cost effective, they are accurate. You'll want something that fits comfortably with not so long of a reach, that safety might become a factor.

It is like golf, why would you want adult size clubs for a 10 year old? No fun if you can't swing the club properly with tons of miss hits. What fun would the be?

Good luck in selecting a .22 for your 10 year old.

TexasGrayBeard
July 19, 2014, 08:15 PM
I recently bought the Ruger American in 22 mag and have really enjoyed it. Seems to be a well made little rifle and no too pricey. I know they make them in regular 22 as well.

Henry is a lot of fun to shoot. Something about working the lever makes me feel like John Wayne...pilgrim!

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