9mm vs 357 in compact handguns


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Hunter2011
July 15, 2014, 02:44 AM
Am I correct in saying that a 9mm in a 3'' barrel compares favourably against a .357 Magnum out of a 2'' snubby, power wise? I know it is unfair to compair the balistics out of a 3'' barrel to the ballistics out of a 2'' barrel. But since a pistol with a 3'' barrel, is shorter in OL than a revolver with a 2'' barrel, I feel it is relevant if you want to carry only something compact.
What is your thoughts? Lets leave the shotcount advantage of a pistol out of the discussion for now:)

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Water-Man
July 15, 2014, 03:16 AM
The 3" 9mm has over a 200 fps advantage over a 2" .357mag using 125gr.+P.

Hunter2011
July 15, 2014, 03:59 AM
Agreed. But why then do some say a 9mm is underpowered, but a .357 is more than good enough? It simply does not make sense to me. In longer barrels, then yes, but not in shorter barrels.

Hyrule
July 15, 2014, 04:46 AM
use a nice defense round and you'll be fine with either caliber. gold dot HP will do a great job. if sticking with 9mm and your pistol can handle +P ammo go with it!!

C0untZer0
July 15, 2014, 07:01 AM
.


http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=200586&stc=1&d=1405418343

You can go to ballistics by the inch to see how they compare out of longer barrels. The 357 gets moving a whole lot faster out of barrels just a few inches longer, but you can see that out of a shorter barrel, the +P 9mm loadings are close to 357 mag velocities.


.

R.W.Dale
July 15, 2014, 08:06 AM
Make sure you guys are accounting for the fact that a 2" revolver barrel starts IN FRONT OF THE CHAMBER and an automatic FROM THE BREACH FACE

A 2" 357 mag as shown by BBTI would be like having a revolver with a 1/4" barrel

Hunter2011
July 15, 2014, 08:23 AM
Make sure you guys are accounting for the fact that a 2" revolver barrel starts IN FRONT OF THE CHAMBER and an automatic FROM THE BREACH FACE

A 2" 357 mag as shown by BBTI would be like having a revolver with a 1/4" barrel
That is why I asked my question here, I would like to see some real world results.

R.W.Dale
July 15, 2014, 08:53 AM
That is why I asked my question here, I would like to see some real world results.


2.75" speed six

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=664754

j1
July 15, 2014, 09:04 AM
Nice chart which ends discussion with the facts. Thank you. To enter the discussion the holes wth either must be placed in the correct place to do the job well.

mavracer
July 15, 2014, 11:48 AM
Nice chart which ends discussion with the facts.
except for
"One note: in every case with the T/C Encore the length of the barrel was measured from the end of the barrel back to the breech face. This is how semi-auto pistols are measured, but revolvers are measured as the length of the barrel in front of the cylinder gap. Take this into consideration when comparing calibers using our numbers."

As to the OP close with lighter bullets but show me a micro 9mm that'll launch 180gr slugs over 1000 like my SP101 would.

jmr40
July 15, 2014, 12:00 PM
Make sure you guys are accounting for the fact that a 2" revolver barrel starts IN FRONT OF THE CHAMBER and an automatic FROM THE BREACH FACE

A 2" 357 mag as shown by BBTI would be like having a revolver with a 1/4" barrel

Forget barrel length. It is overall length that matters. My 4" G-19 is exactly the same length as a 2.25" barreled Ruger SP101, 3 oz lighter and holds 11 more rounds. And beats 357 loads from the snubby revolver by a significant amount. And with far less recoil and blast.

BBTI also tests real guns with similar results which also match my chronograph work.

jmr40
July 15, 2014, 12:10 PM
show me a micro 9mm that'll launch 180gr slugs over 1000 like my SP101 would.

Can come mighty close with 165's.

http://www.doubletapammo.net/index.php?route=product/product&path=303_371&product_id=654

And beat it with 357 Sig

http://www.doubletapammo.net/index.php?route=product/product&path=125_180&product_id=563

Woodsman!
July 15, 2014, 01:00 PM
Im guessing a 9mm +p +p +p +p equal a 44 mag snub too ?

Hunter2011
July 15, 2014, 01:13 PM
Guys, I did not start this thread to make it a revolver bashing thread. Seems we are getting of topic now.
Simple facts from owners who have actual chrony results of both is all that is needed really. The facts are the facts.
9mm in 3'' barrel VS .357 in 2'' barrel.
It also does not help to take the most powerful round available in .357 and comparing it to the weakest round in 9mm.
Pocket pistols are mostly shot with 9mm ammo, and not +P ammo? Or is is just me that don't shoot +P ammo in a compact 9mm?

It does not matter to me who ''wins'' It was just a thread started out of interest.

amd6547
July 15, 2014, 01:22 PM
Well, I don't have a chronograph, or a budget for ballistic gel.
All I know is that when I shoot the 10" steel plates my club has at 40yds, using the G26 loaded with 127gn +P+, the plate goes "ping".
When I hit with the GP100 3" using American Eagle 158gn JSP, the plate goes "PINGGG".

R.W.Dale
July 15, 2014, 01:39 PM
How about some apples to apples with numbers from a 2" 9mm REVOLVER

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=8099339&postcount=13


As you can see from similar compact firearms 9mm and 357 are close. Which comes as no surprise to me since the pressures are nearly identical.

But as bbl length increases the greater case capacity of 357 gets to go to work and puts 9mm to shame. The same rem SJHP 125g load l linked to earlier goes almost 1600 fps from my 6" 386

mavracer
July 15, 2014, 01:54 PM
Can come mighty close with 165's.
A Beretta M9 is a micro 9mm :scrutiny:
I'd also have to see some testing with store bought Doubletap ammo, The ammo I've chronoed from them wasn't close to their claimed velocity.

murf
July 15, 2014, 04:03 PM
go to buffalobore.com, choose the loads you want and compare velocities fired from real handguns.

example: 124gn +p+9mm, glock 19 w/4"bbl - 1296fps
125gn heavy 357magnum, 3" j frame - 1467fps

this example is comparable. a 9mm cartridge is one inch long, so each weapon has three inches of barrel in front of the bullet.

murf

Xfire68
July 15, 2014, 08:05 PM
But why then do some say a 9mm is underpowered, but a .357 is more than good enough?

I think some of those that are still saying this are going off of what their Dad or Grandfather told them. There have been big improvements in ammo over the last 30 years and it really shows in 9mm. I am speculating here but, many times the info we hear is old outdated and inaccurate.

Saleen322
July 15, 2014, 09:10 PM
I saw this thread and I read another thread where a 3" .357 158 Hydrashock did 1236 fps. This thread shows the same round @ 914 fps from a 2". I don't have anything with a barrel this short but a jump of over 300 fps for 1" difference seems like a lot?? Just found the difference fascinating. YMMV



http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=549399

357 Terms
July 15, 2014, 09:32 PM
I can't stand when people post Ballistics by the Inch statistics for magnum revolvers.

BBI is nothing but BS when it comes to snubby revolvers!!!!!

For some ridiculous reason BBI incorporates the OAL of the cartridge into the barrell length, so their data for a 2in 357 is actually ONE HALF an inch!!!

Buffalo bore has a 125 grn load that hita 1476 from a 3in J-frame
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=103

No 9mm comes close.

tubeshooter
July 15, 2014, 09:41 PM
I think some of those that are still saying this are going off of what their Dad or Grandfather told them. There have been big improvements in ammo over the last 30 years and it really shows in 9mm. I am speculating here but, many times the info we hear is old outdated and inaccurate.


I don't think it's so much "outdated and inaccurate"...

While I agree that 9mm has benefited from modern bullet improvements, I think it is more than nostalgia and Dad/Granddad. I honestly think the difference comes from the .357's reputation as a woods gun. Short answer to the actual question: for a compact sidearm that's intended for self defense from other people, both will do the job fine.

The .357 also has the disadvantage of being somewhat watered down nowadays from it's glory days factory loadings, with all the older guns out there.


If we're in the woods, I'll take 158 grains of some .357 most any day personally speaking. If you're talking about an inch of barrel the other way for .357 (4" barrel instead of 2"), it's not even a question.

gamestalker
July 15, 2014, 10:33 PM
Those must be some pretty wimpy loads they're using in that comparison. I get over 1000 fps with 158 gr. JHP's from my 2-1/2" snubs with just a 38 spl. +p Longshot load.

And .357 mag loads with 296 / H110 produce significantly higher velocities than that, also with a 158 gr. JHP. And if I drop the bullet weight down to a 125 gr. JHP, those velocities increase significantly.

A 9mm +P Longshot load 124 gr. JHP runs 1150+ fps from 3" - 3-1/2" pistols. I'll dig through my log books later and post actually recorded chrony results. But I tell ya right now, the snubby .357 mag. with 125 gr. JHP velocities are definitely well above those of a 9mm 124 gr. JHP with a 3" - 3-1/2" barrel using published data.

GS

MCgunner
July 16, 2014, 12:06 AM
My Kel Tec P11 fires a 115 JHP +P to 1263 fps/410 ft lbs. I chronographed a 140 Speer JHP over 17.0 grains of 2400 at over 1300 fps for 550 ft lbs from a 2" SP101. The 125 grainer over 18 grains of 2400 seemed to get out of the barrel before the pressure peak cause I got 1100+ fps out of it for something under 400 ft lbs. So, I'd say, depends on the load. I carry that 140 grain load in my 3" Taurus 66 and it kicks sand on the +P 9x19 load, which is 6.4 grains unique/115 Hornady XTP BTW.

The 9 does it with faster powders and less flash bang. It's a good choice IMHO for small carry. The .357 with the right load, though, is still superior even out of a 2" revolver. I just stay away from bullets under 140 grains, all flash/bang, no bite.

MCgunner
July 16, 2014, 12:13 AM
BTW, with a 180 grain XTP over 13.8 grains AA#9 (developed for hunting in a 6.5" blackhawk) I got 663 ft lbs from the 2" SP101. Not a fun load to shoot and not what I'd carry for SD, but just shows to go ya what a heavier bullet will do for the hot .357 loads and slow powders. No 9x19 load on this planet can reach that sort of performance.

That 180 grain load produces 785 ft lbs in the 6.5" Blackhawk, only about 120 ft lbs difference. IIRC, 2" velocity was something around 1300 fps, gets 1400 fps from the Blackhawk. You only loose 100 fps or so with this load by chopping 4.5" off the barrel. IF you don't believe me, Buffalo Bore shows similar results on their site. Go check it out.

Hunter2011
July 16, 2014, 01:18 AM
Most people don't reload, so only factory ammo needs mentioning:)

Look, I know for a hunting handgun, you can't compare the 9mm to the .357 as in 6'' or longer barrels, the .357 wins over the 9mm easily. If ever I must protect myself against a bear, I know a .357 will be my choice over a 9mm, unless the 9mm has a 30 round magazine:D

But choosing over the counter ammo, and using it in compact handguns, I really feel it is unfair to say the 9mm is underpowered while the .357 is a man stopper... That while their ballistics are very much identical.

ljnowell
July 16, 2014, 05:16 AM
The numbers aren't that similar the BBTI numbers are radically skewed. It's no different than the age old load cherry picking where someone picks the hottest of one load and the mildest of the other.

MCgunner
July 16, 2014, 09:05 AM
Most people don't reload, so only factory ammo needs mentioning

Well, then, my ammo is better'n your ammo.:neener:

Actually, not to get in to the time worn handloads for self defense argument, but I haven't bought a box of factory ammo in 30 years until just the other day when I bought a box of 100 .45ACPs at walmart, FMJ 230 ball. I bought 'em for the brass. :D They were not that much more'n buying new brass and I was unable to find once fired.

Anyway, back on subject, but even out of the 2" barrel, the .357 kicks dust on the 9 WITH THE RIGHT AMMO. Don't reload, buy Buffalo Bore. I never said, though, that the 9 was inadequate for self defense, often carry one myself. Until I did the chronographing for myself, I fell into the myth that the 9 was as good as the .357 from a 2" barrel, but it just ain't so with proper heavy bullet loads. Sure, it's true with 125 or 110 grainers, but I don't carry those in .357, carry 140. 158 works, too. If I didn't handload, I'd be ordering carry ammo from Buffalo Bore, though. They've got some good loads.

As for 30 rounds mags in a 9 for bear, well, you'll just make him madder. Actually, fast as they are, you're lucky to get off ONE shot at him before he's on you, but that's another subject.

Buffalo Bore used to list 2" ballistics. They have 3" up now for their shortest barrel length. They seem to get decent results out of 125 grain stuff in the 3", but I'll stick with my 140 in a 2" or even my 3" gun. However, Buffalo Bore out performs my handloads. I'm only getting a little over 1330 fps from a 140 JHP from a 2" gun which is about what I remember them listing for a 158 JHP out of a 2" gun.......

1. 3 inch S&W J frame

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1302 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC (jacketed hollow cavity) = 1299 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1398 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1476 fps

jmr40
July 16, 2014, 12:08 PM
A Beretta M9 is a micro 9mm
I'd also have to see some testing with store bought Doubletap ammo, The ammo I've chronoed from them wasn't close to their claimed velocity.

Look again. They also show it from a 4" Ruger SR9 which is the same overall size as a 2.25" SP 101.

All of the DT ammo I've chronographed equaled or beat listed speeds.


The numbers aren't that similar the BBTI numbers are radically skewed.

The numbers listed from the test barrel may, or may not be realistic, but they also test velocities from real guns. No 2 people will ever chronograph loads from different guns and get the exact speeds. It is not uncommon for two different 357 revolvers with equal barrel lengths to record 50-100 fps difference with ammo from the same box. But you do see some trends that very much match what I see with my chronograph.

http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html

Scroll down and compare the speeds listed from the 6" Python to the 4" S&W 686. Even though it has a 2" shorter barrel the S&W is 100-150 fps faster than the Colt with almost all bullets tested. This is why some of these posts turn into shouting matches. Comparing the speeds I get in my gun to the speeds someone else gets does not really tell us much. While not perfect, the numbers from the test barrel are from the same barrel, and are more accurate in my opinion.

Not bashing magnum revolvers at all. I own several and they ain't for sale. But when you get into revolvers with sub 4" barrels there are semi auto options that are going to be smaller, lighter and shoot equal bullet weights to at least the same speed and often faster. And do so with far less blast, recoil and with up to 3X more ammo capacity. To me this is far more important even if the revolvers are a tiny bit faster.

A revolver with a 2-2.5" barrel is comparable in size to a semi with 4" barrels. A 3.5" Glock 26 or 27 is smaller than the Ruger LCR with a 1.8" barrel. I don't concern myself much with the barrel length differences between revolvers and semi's. Either it is small enough to carry and conceal easily or it doesn't. It is the overall length that matters.

If you want to shoot 124/125/ gr bullets to around 1200-1250 fps it can be done with either a semi or revolver of about the same size. If you want to shoot 180 gr bullets to 1000 fps you can do it with a snubby 357, but not a 9mm. But you can move up to a 40S&W or 357 Sig in the same size gun and easily get 1000 fps with 180's. Or the slightly larger G-29 in 10mm and get 1200+ fps with 200 gr bullets.

mavracer
July 16, 2014, 12:40 PM
Look again. They also show it from a 4" Ruger SR9 which is the same overall size as a 2.25" SP 101.
Your definition of "the same" and "equal" are far to erroneous to have any further discussion.

jimbo555
July 16, 2014, 12:49 PM
If you prefer revolvers, you choose 38spl. or 357mag. If you prefer semi-auto you choose 9mm, 40s&w or 10mm. What's the big deal?

ljnowell
July 16, 2014, 12:59 PM
If you prefer revolvers, you choose 38spl. or 357mag. If you prefer semi-auto you choose 9mm, 40s&w or 10mm. What's the big deal?


It goes like this Jimbo, I have never seen a thread where the magnum guy is comparing his choice to anything else to prove a point. This is far from the first 9mm is equal to whatever thread on here. It seems to be a pattern.

My opinion is that the 9mm is a very good SD caliber choice, but a 357 mag it isn't. It's just like when guys start telling me how their 10mm has more power than a 44 magnum.

Woodsman!
July 16, 2014, 01:35 PM
ljnowell has it right, its always the same comparisons. Ive seen a ton of them.

MCgunner
July 16, 2014, 10:32 PM
Not bashing magnum revolvers at all. I own several and they ain't for sale. But when you get into revolvers with sub 4" barrels there are semi auto options that are going to be smaller, lighter and shoot equal bullet weights to at least the same speed and often faster. And do so with far less blast, recoil and with up to 3X more ammo capacity. To me this is far more important even if the revolvers are a tiny bit faster.

A tiny bit faster? :rolleyes: Again, from Buffalo Bore, not me...


1. 3 inch S&W J frame

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1302 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC (jacketed hollow cavity) = 1299 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1398 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1476 fps

You have a similar length 9x19 that can fire anything more than a 90 grain JHP to 1398 fps, do ya? Does your 124 grainer run 1478 fps? Is your shooting hand still on your arm?

Not arguing that for some, the 9 might not be a better choice due to less flash/bang and recoil, but this thread is about the 9 ballistically equalling the .357 magnum from a short barrel. With the right load, it just ain't so.

Go For Broke
July 16, 2014, 11:27 PM
Ballistic are cool to talk about, but as previously said, hitting the target is better.

My favorite is a S&W M-65 with 3" inch barrel. Although the M-547 is the identical gun in 9mm, the 9mm was not designed for a revolver. You have to use clips. Therefore, I would pass on the 547.

A Glock, A SIG, etc. etc., then I'll take a 9mm.

Lucky Derby
July 17, 2014, 01:50 AM
Ballistic are cool to talk about, but as previously said, hitting the target is better.

My favorite is a S&W M-65 with 3" inch barrel. Although the M-547 is the identical gun in 9mm, the 9mm was not designed for a revolver. You have to use clips. Therefore, I would pass on the 547.

A Glock, A SIG, etc. etc., then I'll take a 9mm.
The M547 does NOT use moon clips. It has a specially designed extractor. In fairness it is the only 9mm Luger hand-ejector style revoler that does not use clips that I am aware of.

Hunter2011
July 17, 2014, 02:29 AM
The M547 does NOT use moon clips. It has a specially designed extractor. In fairness it is the only 9mm Luger hand-ejector style revoler that does not use clips that I am aware of.
Maybe the Rhino revolver also?

Lucky Derby
July 17, 2014, 02:32 AM
Maybe the Rhino revolver also?
As far as I know the Rhino is only available in .357

Hunter2011
July 17, 2014, 02:39 AM
As far as I know the Rhino is only available in .357
.357, 9mm and .40S&W, Really nice and I want one, but their price in my country is too much for it.

ljnowell
July 17, 2014, 03:56 AM
The M547 does NOT use moon clips. It has a specially designed extractor. In fairness it is the only 9mm Luger hand-ejector style revoler that does not use clips that I am aware of.


Charter Arms makes one in 9mm and 40 S&W.

http://www.shotgunnews.com/2013/07/09/charter-arms-pitbull-review/

MCgunner
July 17, 2014, 10:41 AM
I have thought about getting a 9mm Charter revolver just because I got so danged much 9mm loaded, so much brass (from when I used to shoot IDPA at a local club which is now defunct) and my Dillon Square Deal is set up for 9mm, rips 'em out post haste. :D Now, I have two 9mm autos, a Ruger P85 and a Kel Tec P11 that I sometimes carry. But, you gotta chase brass. I set up an ez up with a tarp on the ground for capturing my brass which is a pain. 9mm is hard to see, too, if it misses the tarp.

Yeah, I probably need a 9mm revolver. :D

mavracer
July 17, 2014, 10:49 AM
9mm is hard to see, too, if it misses the tarp.
I just don't worry that much about finding it all, as you said I have an abundance of 9mm brass.

MCgunner
July 17, 2014, 10:54 AM
I'm cheap, don't like losing it. However, heck, new 9mm rounds are cheap enough to buy just for the brass. :D I say that, but I haven't bought any since it was under 8 bucks a box of 50. Still, they run less than .45ACP.

Cooldill
July 17, 2014, 03:22 PM
I think a number of people out there buy short 2" or less .357 magnum revolvers and expect it to be more "powerful" than a full size or compact 9mm simply because the .357 has the word "magnum" in it and that conjures images of people being blown through walls and stuff, in the general publics eyes anyway.

The reality is not so! Especially given the increased muzzle blast, I'd much rather have a short bbl'd 9mm than a short bbl'd .357 magnum.

MCgunner
July 17, 2014, 04:42 PM
I think a number of people out there buy short 2" or less .357 magnum revolvers and expect it to be more "powerful" than a full size or compact 9mm simply because the .357 has the word "magnum" in it and that conjures images of people being blown through walls and stuff, in the general publics eyes anyway.

The reality is not so! Especially given the increased muzzle blast, I'd much rather have a short bbl'd 9mm than a short bbl'd .357 magnum.

Well, pure ballistics, it IS so. 180 grain bullet out of a 2" barrel at 1300 fps for 660 ft lbs. That DOES beat any 9mm, just pure numbers, right? Didn't say I carried that load, but the 140 I do carry makes 550 ft lbs out of a 2" barrel, still more'n 9x19. It ain't really the load for indoor shooting, though, I'll admit. :D But, that wasn't the OP's question.

My +P 9 makes 410 ft lbs out of the Kel Tec and 440 ft lbs out of my Ruger P85. Not a lot of gain, faster burn powder is more efficient in a shorter barrel. STILL, I cannot deny that the .357 is superior in the numbers from any barrel length. Longer barrels really help the .357, it only gets better, but it's still better than the 9 from the short barrel given the right load.

Cooldill
July 17, 2014, 04:58 PM
Well, pure ballistics, it IS so. 180 grain bullet out of a 2" barrel at 1300 fps for 660 ft lbs. That DOES beat any 9mm, just pure numbers, right? Didn't say I carried that load, but the 140 I do carry makes 550 ft lbs out of a 2" barrel, still more'n 9x19. It ain't really the load for indoor shooting, though, I'll admit. :D But, that wasn't the OP's question.

My +P 9 makes 410 ft lbs out of the Kel Tec and 440 ft lbs out of my Ruger P85. Not a lot of gain, faster burn powder is more efficient in a shorter barrel. STILL, I cannot deny that the .357 is superior in the numbers from any barrel length. Longer barrels really help the .357, it only gets better, but it's still better than the 9 from the short barrel given the right load.
What load delivers those numbers? 1300 FPS from a 2" bbl with a 180 gr. .357 magnum seems awful high out of even a 4" bbl. I believe you, I just might need to find some of them!

R.W.Dale
July 17, 2014, 06:26 PM
I'm a 357 fanatic and even I don't think a 180 g or even 158 grain bullet for that matter from a 2" barrel @1300 is even REMOTELY realistic at 35000 psi

MCgunner
July 17, 2014, 06:53 PM
13.8 grains AA#9/180 Hornady XTP tested from a 2" SP101. Again, these are Buffalo Bore's factory load numbers from a 3" gun.


1. 3 inch S&W J frame

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1302 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC (jacketed hollow cavity) = 1299 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1398 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1476 fps

R.W.Dale
July 17, 2014, 07:09 PM
13.8 grains AA#9/180 Hornady XTP tested from a 2" SP101. Again, these are Buffalo Bore's factory load numbers from a 3" gun.


They can claim it all they want. Claim and reality are not the same thing

R.W.Dale
July 17, 2014, 07:18 PM
According to Lyman that's a 1.3 grain overload and appx 240 fps FASTER than their 4" test bbl.

It doesn't add up and smells like...well you know


ETA it's almost a 2 grain overload according to accurate arms and is still 100 fps faster than their 6" barrel

MCgunner
July 17, 2014, 07:38 PM
So, you don't like my handload, buy the Buffalo Bore load from the factory, just as fast.

I developed that load for my Blackhawk for hunting from a magazine article 15 years ago. I don't shoot that load much, but when I do, it's in the Blackhawk, but I tested it in the SP101 and it's a strong little revolver. Buffalo Bore's factory data is from a 3" J frame and Buffalo Bore claims that ALL its loads are capable of being fired from any .357 chambered handgun including J frames.

From my 6.5" Blackhawk, that load clocks 1400 fps/785 ft lbs. It's only down 100 fps in the 2" SP101. I have shot a 200 lb hog with it from the Blackhawk, quite effective.

R.W.Dale
July 17, 2014, 07:43 PM
mes.

From my 6.5" Blackhawk, that load clocks 1400 fps/785 ft lbs. It's only down 100 fps in the 2" SP101.


As an experienced handloader think about that objectively for a minute.

Does that REALLY make any sense to you?

I think you have some erroneous data that you WANT to be true so you haven't double checked up on it.

MCgunner
July 17, 2014, 09:05 PM
It makes ultimate sense to me especially since Buffalo Bore gets similar results. What I DON'T quite know is how Buffalo Bore gets such good results from the 125 grainer in the 3" J frame. Out of the 2" SP101, I couldn't get 1200 fps from 18.0 grains 2400. Might well be the extra inch of barrel, though. What I conclude is that the light bullet accelerates out of the gun before the pressure peak. This was supported by the amazing fireball with the 125 grain stuff that got progressively less as I went up in bullet weight. I compromised on a 140 Speer over 17 grains 2400, a load I worked up to from the Speer number 11 manual years ago for a Security Six and still works well for me. It's more accurate than the 125 grainer I was shooting, too, and clocked over 1300 fps for 550 ft lbs. Heavier bullet I went to, the less affect the short barrel had on performance.

Conclusion, if you're going to carry a short barrel .357 for self defense, carry a heavier bullet, 140 or 158. You'll get less flash/bang and more performance.

R.W.Dale
July 17, 2014, 09:08 PM
So you think that 4.5" of barrel on a 357 magnum is only good for 100fps?

MCgunner
July 17, 2014, 09:13 PM
So you think that 4.5" of barrel on a 357 magnum is only good for 100fps?

When going from 2" to 6.5", yup, at least with a 180 grain bullet and AA#9. Load performance is variable. Best to chronograph/test and see what's best. If you don't chronograph your loads, you're "shooting in the dark", pardon the pun. You can't just quote some website as gospel. I don't quote Buffalo Bore as gospel, but I do use 'em to support my conclusions.

A short barrel .357 is very load dependent. I'm just telling you what I've found. Chose not to believe it if you wish. No sweat off me, I know what I know.

MCgunner
July 17, 2014, 09:16 PM
Here's the velocities from the BB web page. Check 'em out, supports what I'm telling you.

1. 3 inch S&W J frame

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1302 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC (jacketed hollow cavity) = 1299 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1398 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1476 fps

2. 4 inch S&W L frame Mt. Gun

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1375 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr JHC = 1411 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1485 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1603 fps

3. 5 inch S&W model 27

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast =1398 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC = 1380 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1457 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1543 fps

4. 6 inch Ruger GP 100

a. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1707 fps

5. 18.5 inch Marlin 1894

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast = 1851 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC = 1860 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 2153 fps---- Can you believe this?!!!
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 2298 fps---- Or this?!!!

SDGlock23
July 18, 2014, 01:16 AM
I've chronographed factory 125gr .357 Mag Remington loads doing around 1450 fps from a 3" SP101 I used to have. Comparatively a rather warm 9mm load from a G19 can get a 124gr to do around 1250, so the .357 will always be faster.

From the 6" GP100 I was getting a little over 1500 fps with a 158gr SWC and 14.8gr of 2400, although I never chronographed that over the SP101, I'd imagine that it would still be doing at least 1300-1350 fps. The warmest 147gr I ever handloaded in a 4" G19 would barely break 1,100 fps.

Bottom line is that the .357 Mag is still more powerful from a shorter barrel than the 9mm from a rather long barrel.

TestPilot
July 18, 2014, 03:42 AM
I don't want to fire a full power 357 Magnum out of anything compact.

Of course, you have a choice of light load 357, but what is the point of carrying a 357 then, especially when you're shooting it out of a short barrel?

My 9mm P290 recoil is comparable to full power 357 Magnum shot out of a 3 inch barrel GP100. Even then, GP100 still recoils stronger. Food for thought.

Deaf Smith
July 18, 2014, 06:02 AM
Folks,

Those 900+ fps .357 loads are hokie. I bet they used +p .38s or real weak .357s.

Expect 2.25 inch full house .357s to make 1250 to 1300 from either a sp-101 or S&W 640. And from a 2 3/4 inch speed SIX the Buffalo Bore .38 158gr lswhp loads do get 1100 fps (I chronoed them myself).

No, using real .357 loads do surpass the 9mm loads BUT they do have controlability problems when doing so.

I use the .38 Buffalo Bore loads in my S&W snub .38s and .357s. And I don't feel under gunned.

Deaf

Phaedrus/69
July 18, 2014, 06:17 AM
FWIW I'll probably never buy another .357 Mag again unless the price is just awesome or the gun is a great deal. In all the years I had my old N-frame and K-frame Smiths I think I only put a few dozen Mags through them but thousands and thousands of rounds of .38 Special. I realize that in theory it's nice to be able to shoot the Mag loads but I almost never did.

Obviously that's just my deal. Lots of people do shoot full powered magnum loads a lot.

Hunter2011
July 18, 2014, 06:22 AM
Just some light reading, as this thread is now a caliber war:D
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/07/daniel-zimmerman/caliber-wars-stupid/#more-328363

Lucky Derby
July 18, 2014, 07:55 AM
Maybe the Rhino revolver also?
Just checked. The Rhino uses clips.

Lucky Derby
July 18, 2014, 07:56 AM
Charter Arms makes one in 9mm and 40 S&W.

http://www.shotgunnews.com/2013/07/09/charter-arms-pitbull-review/
I stand corrected. The Charter appears to have a system similar to the M547.

Davek1977
July 18, 2014, 08:41 AM
With the right load, it just ain't so

If you have to cherry pick a certain load to make your point, not much of a point is made, at least imo. With "typical" ammo, specialty loads notwithstanding, the comparison between compact 9mm autos and compact /357 revolvers is a very valid one.

ljnowell
July 18, 2014, 10:33 AM
If you have to cherry pick a certain load to make your point, not much of a point is made, at least imo. With "typical" ammo, specialty loads notwithstanding, the comparison between compact 9mm autos and compact /357 revolvers is a very valid one.


No, its not, unless you are cherry picking in favor of the 9mm.

MCgunner
July 18, 2014, 11:08 AM
If you have to cherry pick a certain load to make your point, not much of a point is made, at least imo. With "typical" ammo, specialty loads notwithstanding, the comparison between compact 9mm autos and compact /357 revolvers is a very valid one.

I'm just stating what the .357 is capable of and what the 9mm isn't capable of. You're cherry picking weak loads in .357 to make YOUR point. Some companies still load the .357 to its potential and Buffalo Bore is one of 'em.

I do agree that shooting a really hot load from a 12 ounce 340PD ain't my idea of bliss. However, the SP101 and its 27 ounces while being quite compact with a round butt profile full hand filling Hogue grip, is quite easily shootable with a hot 140 grain JHP load. I no longer have that SP101, kinda miss it, might get another some day. It was an impressive little gun. I sometimes carry my 3" Taurus M66, though, and it's a great shooting gun with even more heft. In a Don Hume JIT slide, the square butt Hogue tucks in pretty well. But, with a 3" barrel, it's not quite the "snubby" that the OP is talking about. It's around 34 ounces, though, and really tames the 140 grain hot load, is actually pleasant to shoot. I've shot a pig with it once, was my carry that day and all I had on me when I was walking my place. My ears survived it outdoors. I don't keep it loaded for home defense. :D So, yeah, the .357 does have down sides as a carry. I do have a pocket 9, 14 ounces, 11 rounds, fits in a pocket (Kel Tec P11) and puts a 115 grainer out the barrel at 1263 fps/410 ft lbs. Raw ballistics can't match a good load in .357, but I feel it's plenty of punch and a lot better than totin' a .380 as not quite 200 ft lbs with a puny little 90 grain bullet. It can ride all day comfortably in a pocket and is 3.5" at 25 yards accurate with its favorite load.

I never argued in this thread that the 9 isn't a good SD caliber, far from it! It's just not capable of performing with the .357 magnum, top loads compared, apples vs apples, not even in a 2" snubby. Heck, I could find a weak 9 and compare it to a weak .357 and I'd still win by cherry picking. :D But, compare apples to apples, hot load 9 to hot load .357.

Hunter2011
July 18, 2014, 02:53 PM
I scanned this page from a Man Magnum magazine of January 2002. So all the credit goes to the editor of Man Magnum.
This article shows that the .357 is indeed more powerful, but not by much in short barrels.

greyghost01
July 18, 2014, 10:48 PM
Some interesting reading is at gunthorp.com the article is Terminal ballistics as viewed in a Morgue. Just read it and make your own choice, Good Luck

As far as one shot stops the FBI report rates the 357M & 40 S/W #1 the 9mm is 8th out of 9 calibers

Onward Allusion
July 18, 2014, 11:36 PM
A 2" 357 mag as shown by BBTI would be like having a revolver with a 1/4" barrel

...and we have a winner...

To get to the correct BBTI barrel length for a 2" 357 barrel, you would have to look at the fps between 3" and 4" for the 357. Gotta keep in mind that the guys at BBTI used a T/C Encore.

Sooo...the fps for a 357 between 3 and 4 inches is somewhere around 1,250 to 1,500 fps for a 125 grain.

fps for a 9mm from a 4 inch barrel is somewhere around 1,200 fps for a 125 grain +P load.

Then there's the whole semi -vs- revolver debate... and what about capacity . . . reliability . . . simplicity . . .

Ahhhhh this stuff never gets old! :D

RetiredUSNChief
July 18, 2014, 11:50 PM
Agreed. But why then do some say a 9mm is underpowered, but a .357 is more than good enough? It simply does not make sense to me. In longer barrels, then yes, but not in shorter barrels.

Because...chicken.

There are simply those who enjoy caliber wars, actual ballistics comparisons between similar caliber and mass not withstanding.

:)

MCgunner
July 19, 2014, 05:42 PM
Well, the OP was straight up, no other consideration, which is more powerful, 2" snubby .357 or 9mm. He specificallly stated not to consider capacity and other things that might favor the 9x19mm platform. So, I say, straight up, apples to apples loads, no cherry picked loads, just the best +P 9 against a hot .357 like Buffalo Bore, .357 wins.

Does the .357 win by enough for you to put up with 5 or 6 shot capacity, the flash/bang of a magnum, the recoil, etc, that's another thread. :D I've found room in my collection for both. Currently, my .357 carry DOES have a 3" barrel. I do consider the pocket sized 9x19s like the Kahr/Ruger/Kel Tec/Taurus 709 slim etc to be about the perfect personal protection in a pocket or on a belt. Tiny, accurate, powerful, lots of firepower, like having a service auto in your pocket. The P11 carries up to 13 rounds and is pocket sized, only 14 ounces, recoil is quite manageable and the flash/bang is no where near the magnum snubby. It produces 1262 fps with a 115 grain +P. I don't see where one would need more for self defense and one could choose a lot less.


BUT, that wasn't the OP's question. It was straight up, which is more powerful. That is the .357 by a margin of at least 100 ft lbs according to my chronographing and Buffalo Bore's.

Goosey
July 19, 2014, 06:08 PM
From various sources:

.357 Mag

S&W 640, 125 gr Speer = 1187 fps
S&W 640, 125 gr Rem = 1163 fps
S&W 640, 125 gr Rem = 1059 fps
S&W 640, 125 gr Fed = 1201 fps
S&W 640, 125 gr CCI = 1097 fps
Ruger LCR, 125 gr Rem = 1245 fps
Ruger LCR, 125 gr Speer = 1210 fps
S&W 340PD, 125 gr Speer = 1090 fps

9x19mm

Para LDA, 115 Fed = 1075 fps
Para LDA, 124 Fed = 1071 fps
Kahr CM9, 115 Win = 1020 fps
Kahr CM9, 124 Win = 1053 fps
Kahr CM9, 124 Fed = 1069 fps
Spr. XD9SC, 124 Rem = 1079 fps


I don't think there's much difference. Which "wins" depends on the specific barrel lengths and loads but even then +/- 50, even +/- 100 fps, does it really matter?

mavracer
July 19, 2014, 07:14 PM
even +/- 100 fps, does it really matter?
Even in your own post many of the spreads are closer to 200 fps, as to an extra 10% velocity that's going to translate into the ability to do roughly 10% more damage.
If X amount of damage doesn't stop the BG and X+10% is enough then it could be a tremendous amount of difference.

MCgunner
July 19, 2014, 07:17 PM
And then there's the fact that .357 is capable of shooting heavier bullets to better energies, I mean, if you worry about penetration with expansion.

Goosey
July 19, 2014, 08:25 PM
Even in your own post many of the spreads are closer to 200 fps, as to an extra 10% velocity that's going to translate into the ability to do roughly 10% more damage.
If X amount of damage doesn't stop the BG and X+10% is enough then it could be a tremendous amount of difference.

Some more than others, I should note those aren't 9mm +P loads. In a short .357 a small fraction of barrel length can make a big difference though. As far as I can see a 1-7/8" .357 is practically the same as a 3.5" 9mm at least with the lighter bullets.

IMO any extra stopping power in those tiny .357s would be offset by the fact the .357 would have more recoil, more flash, more noise and less capacity than a compact 9mm.

SP101 2-1/4" - 125 Rem - 1298 fps
SP101 2-1/4" - 125 Fed - 1293 fps
SP101 2-1/4" - 125 Speer - 1242 fps

340PD 1-7/8" - 125 Cor. - 1149 fps
340PD 1-7/8" - 125 Fed. - 1170 fps
340PD 1-7/8" - 125 DbT. - 1169 fps

SR9C 3.5" - 124 Fed. - 1113 fps
SR9C 3.5" - 115 Cor. - 1230 fps
SR9C 3.5" - 124 Speer +P - 1177 fps

CW9 3.5" - 124 Fed. - 1120 fps
CW9 3.5" - 115 Cor. - 1267 fps
CW9 3.5" - 124 BlH. - 1178 fps

MCgunner
July 19, 2014, 08:29 PM
Some more than others, I should note those aren't 9mm +P loads.

And, those aren't buffalo bore .357 loads or equivalent, either, and they're light bullet loads. As I've stated, I found that heavier than 125 grain bullets work better in short barrels.

Ky Larry
July 19, 2014, 08:42 PM
Whack Whack Whack Whack Whack



I don't think this horse is going to get up again.:rolleyes:

ridgerunner1965
July 19, 2014, 10:12 PM
years ago my at the time brother in law had just went thru cop school and had a job with a local town as a leo. he spent the evening tellin me how his glock was so much more powerfull than my 357 ruger revolver. i knew the boy and how full of sheet he was.

i said hey lets shoot sum guns. he popped off a couple of rounds with his 9mm glock,i shot it and it was nice, then i handed him my gp100 with full house loads. KABOOM!!!!!!!!!. he almost dropped it.

i said tell me now about the power of a 9mm ,he just looked at his shoes and said damm dude i had no idea!

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