s&w m&p hate


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jamal28
July 15, 2014, 07:26 PM
Why is there so much hate towards the m & p from others gun owners including those that own glocks

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kcofohio
July 15, 2014, 07:43 PM
Might I inquire if you are asking this as in why you shouldn't get one? Or because you have one and want to know why certain people are downing the M&P?

Sam1911
July 15, 2014, 07:48 PM
I don't see much hate. I see a whole lot of love. And I have personal experience with what seems to be an endemic reliability problem with some models, especially the Pro.

But they're great guns to shoot when working well and, except for the reliability issues, I hear pretty much no one "dissing" them.

ugaarguy
July 15, 2014, 07:53 PM
I also like M&P's quite well. There are some little things I wish S&W would change, but there are little things I'd change on most factory pistols if I had my druthers.

glocknurse
July 15, 2014, 07:56 PM
I've owned two. The main problem I have with them is just the trigger. I really don't like it. On the one i currently own I have an Apex aluminum trigger and duty carry kit installed and it is wonderful. It points naturally for me and I find it extremely easy to shoot. As far as reliability problems, I haven't had any. I do find that when loading M&P magazines the followers have a tendency to tilt when loading the first couple of rounds if I'm not careful but it has never caused any problems or malfunctions while shooting.

jamal28
July 15, 2014, 08:07 PM
Kcofohio i was refering to the hate it gets from the owners of glocks and sig. By the way i do plan on buying one real soon im lookin at an atlanta pd trade in but cant decide whether i want to buy it

The Lone Haranguer
July 15, 2014, 08:27 PM
Some people would complain if you hung them with a brand new rope. :p I personally liked both the 9mm full size I shot as a rental and the 9mm compact it inspired me to buy. This gun never malfunctioned in any way.

FireInCairo
July 15, 2014, 08:31 PM
Smith & Wesson, being based in Massachusetts, has let politicians guide their manufacturing and design. For example, they put 12-16 pound triggers on their M&P pistols.

This kind of engineering was prompted by politicians, not gun designers. This breaks a fundamental rule of gun safety which says never to point a gun at anything unless you intend to shoot it because a 12 pound trigger, even even the most expert hands, will cause the muzzle to move off target when firing.

This "safety" feature actually makes the gun more dangerous and requires the owner to get a trigger job done on it.

Sam1911
July 15, 2014, 08:44 PM
There are models with 12-16 lb. trigger pulls? I didn't know that. I've certainly never seen one. I have seen the Glocks with "New York" triggers and some even heavier, but I didn't know that S&W did that with the M&Ps, too.

The idea that the politicians are guiding the design process of a gun manufacturer strikes be as foolish hogwash, but if you have some proof that they are letting politicians design their guns I will retract my assumption that the idea is pure crap.

enine
July 15, 2014, 08:49 PM
They have to make some models with the 10-12lb triggers for the states that require it. The triggers in the normal models are half that.
Why do Glock/Sig owners hate on S&W? The same reason Ford and Dodge owners hate on GM and vise versa.

RustyShackelford
July 15, 2014, 08:59 PM
I don't understand the ? .
I don't hate the Smith & Wesson M&Ps. I have owned 02 pistols, a full size 9x19mm with NMS & a ambi safety. I had a M&P Compact .45acp that I sold in 2013. Both pistols were fine.
I'd buy a new FDE format .45acp or a "no thumb safety" Shield in 9mm.
I have seen recent(2014 era) M&P models with awful triggers & poor QC.
:uhoh:
Can these problems be fixed? With David Bowie custom work or Apex Tactical parts, yes.

If Smith & Wesson got the act together & improved QC the consumers/buyers would notice.

Sam1911
July 15, 2014, 09:03 PM
I'm still curious where these haters are? I regularly meet up with groups of 40-200 die-hard handgunners and while each one has his/her preferences, I really don't hear any general or regular negative comments about any of the common specific brands.

To be fair, very few competitive shooters are still rockin' SIGs these days, so maybe I'm just not tuned in to that group, such as it is. But I certainly know a lot of Glock shooters. Most of them have something between grudging respect, equitable affection, or even wistful admiration (only tempered by distrust) of the M&P. Almost all will admit it is a great-shooting gun.

It really bugs some of them/us that Smith has had such a hellacious time getting the extractors to work right and solving a few other little problems, especially in the Pro guns, because a lot of guys NOT shooting M&Ps wish they felt like they could move into that platform, or go back to them.

I'll admit to being in that camp. The fastest IPDA Classifier time I ever recorded was when I borrowed a plane-jane 4" M&P 9 from a pal to see if I liked it. They are FANTASTIC shooting guns, when they're working right.

kcofohio
July 15, 2014, 09:23 PM
jamal, I have have mainly seen decent reviews of police trade-ins. Handle one and see if it is you. :)

If you don't like the trigger (may have a gritty feel), like metioned in another post, Apex Tactical has trigger kits to fix that. That is what I did with my wife's M&P40. It has been a reliable gun.

BTW, the original gun comes with 3 grips that you can swap out to fit your hand. Some of the police trade-ins may not. S&W may sell you those upon request.

MrBorland
July 15, 2014, 09:37 PM
No hate here.

I shot mine factory stock for a while, with no issues, even with little cleaning. I eventually swapped in an Apex extractor when I heard some were having trouble with the factory extractor. Also did a home action job on it. Otherwise, no issues.

Sauer Grapes
July 15, 2014, 09:46 PM
Reliability issues? 1st I've heard it. Of course my M&P's are all 3 years old or older.
As for triggers, I've only owned a couple guns that I felt didn't need some polishing. Production polymer guns. I think people's expectations are too high IMHO. Everybody wants Wilson Combat quality in a budget firearm, ain't happening, sorry.

HexHead
July 15, 2014, 09:53 PM
They have to make some models with the 10-12lb triggers for the states that require it. The triggers in the normal models are half that.
Why do Glock/Sig owners hate on S&W? The same reason Ford and Dodge owners hate on GM and vise versa.
What states require 10-12 lb. triggers? Name one. That sounds like the biggest line of BS I've ever seen here.

CJ
July 15, 2014, 10:14 PM
What states require 10-12 lb. triggers? Name one. That sounds like the biggest line of BS I've ever seen here.

Ummm...Massachusetts (as people mention here). 940 CMR 16.00 (http://www.mass.gov/ago/government-resources/ags-regulations/940-cmr-1600.html) which make it a "deceptive practice" if certain features aren't included:

"...such mechanisms shall include, but are not limited to: raising trigger resistance to at least a ten pound pull, altering the firing mechanism so that an average five year old child's hands are too small to operate the handgun, or requiring a series of multiple motions in order to fire the handgun."

TennJed
July 15, 2014, 10:21 PM
Smith & Wesson, being based in Massachusetts, has let politicians guide their manufacturing and design. For example, they put 12-16 pound triggers on their M&P pistols.

This kind of engineering was prompted by politicians, not gun designers. This breaks a fundamental rule of gun safety which says never to point a gun at anything unless you intend to shoot it because a 12 pound trigger, even even the most expert hands, will cause the muzzle to move off target when firing.

This "safety" feature actually makes the gun more dangerous and requires the owner to get a trigger job done on it.
Not true

MedWheeler
July 15, 2014, 10:49 PM
^^ TennJed, the post you quote above (8) makes several separate points. Which one(s) is/are false?

Centurian22
July 15, 2014, 10:51 PM
I don't hate them, just really don't like the hinged trigger feel personally.

FireInCairo
July 15, 2014, 11:04 PM
I'm not a S&W basher or hater. I actually recommended the M&P 15 rifle to someone the other day.

But.. When it comes to pistols, S&W kau-towed to policians in Massachusetts. They require a 10+ trigger pull on pistols:
http://www.smithandwessonforums.com/forum/ccw-forum-gun-control-state-laws/9471-mass-trigger-pull.html

That's not the worst of it, though. There are plenty of reports of guns with pulls weighing in at up to 16 pounds!

Here is a quote from a discussion on this topic:

"In order to be Ma compliant the trigger needs to be at least 10 lbs. S&W went a little overboard and turned out at trigger that exceeds even that."

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/50241-Smith-and-Wesson-M-amp-P?highlight=trigger+weight+pounds

mgmorden
July 15, 2014, 11:17 PM
Certainly not a hater here. M&P is my favorite pistol I've shot/owned, though it's a bit marginal. I tend to shoot it a lot better than anything else but I think that's largely due to the fact that I just have more practice with that gun. To me people largely get a little too attached to their gun model these days. The reality is that most of them work fine and for utility purposes you'll not likely know the difference.

TennJed
July 15, 2014, 11:42 PM
^^ TennJed, the post you quote above (8) makes several separate points. Which one(s) is/are false?
All of them. Politicians are not guiding product development. No 12-16lbs trigger pull, and even though i wouldn't advise a 12lbs a person could learn to use it safely.

So back to my original point. Not true. None of it

ugaarguy
July 15, 2014, 11:44 PM
But.. When it comes to pistols, S&W kau-towed to policians in Massachusetts. They require a 10+ trigger pull on pistols:
http://www.smithandwessonforums.com/...gger-pull.html

That's not the worst of it, though. There are plenty of reports of guns with pulls weighing in at up to 16 pounds!
That's a trigger modification that's on the MA compliant models ONLY, and not on ALL of the M&P pistols as you're asserting. Would you prefer they not make a compliant model and not sell their flagship pistol to residents of MA?

Was the Ruger SR9 designed by politicians? They have a MA compliant version of it.

What about every pistol manufacturer in the US that offers handguns with 10 round mags for states that have those simpler regulations: Are they kowtowing and letting politicians design their pistols?

FireInCairo
July 15, 2014, 11:51 PM
My Walther PPS, which was distributed by S&W, had a trigger well over 12 pounds. They, too, are well-known for absurdly heavy triggers in Massachusetts.

If the rule is 10 pound minimum, there's no sense in going beyond that.

ugaarguy
July 15, 2014, 11:58 PM
If the rule is 10 pound minimum, there's no sense in going beyond that.
No, there's plenty of sense in going beyond that. It's called a safety margin or a margin of error. There's no harm in going 20% over, but if you're .00001% under you're in legal trouble. It's just like all the shotgun manufacturers making 18.5" bbls instead of 18" bbls. Who says the state's weights and measures are calibrated the same as S&W's? Or the same as these guys posting on the web?

My Walther PPS, which was distributed by S&W, had a trigger well over 12 pounds. They, too, are well-known for absurdly heavy triggers in Massachusetts.
Would you prefer they didn't make a MA compliant model? Or do you like having the option to buy the pistol in MA?

Praxidike
July 16, 2014, 12:40 AM
No, there's plenty of sense in going beyond that. It's called a safety margin or a margin of error. There's no harm in going 20% over, but if you're .00001% under you're in legal trouble. It's just like all the shotgun manufacturers making 18.5" bbls instead of 18" bbls. Who says the state's weights and measures are calibrated the same as S&W's? Orthe same as these guys posting on the web?


Would you prefer they didn't make a MA compliant model? Or do you like having the option to buy the pistol in MA?

Good point... Seems like many gun owners go on forums and YouTube to bash a gun or gun maker without knowing all the facts or what they're talking about.

Me, I like American made Rugers and S&W. For budget guns, I like Kel Tec and Taurus. Sigs are well made beautiful guns too.

The first gun I ever shot was a Glock and from then on, I just did not get the hype. The only thing I like about them is that different models of the same caliber can share mags, and they have a lot of aftermarket junk to add to the gun... Other than that, I just don't get the petal stool that they're placed on at all. Another thing that turned me off from them is the pompous attitudes that some Glock owners fanboys have. I don't think that most Glock owners hate on S&W specifically, I think SOME hate on any gun that is not 100% just like Glock. That's just my opinion and personal observation of SOME Glock owners on the web (yahoo answers, YouTube, other forums)

peacebutready
July 16, 2014, 12:56 AM
And I have personal experience with what seems to be an endemic reliability problem with some models, especially the Pro.


I thought reliability issues were ironed out except for any new models.

tarosean
July 16, 2014, 01:00 AM
The only guns I've truly "hated" were ones that didn't work.
Had an M&P45c that I never clicked with even though it always worked flawlessly. Course that's not saying much as there have been a great number of guns I didn't click with...

gc70
July 16, 2014, 01:10 AM
Sam1911 encapsulated how most owners of other pistols react to the M&P.

Most of them have something between grudging respect, equitable affection, or even wistful admiration (only tempered by distrust) of the M&P. Almost all will admit it is a great-shooting gun.

However, there are a tiny number of gun owners who seem to feel threatened that other models of guns may be as good as -or better than- their favorite guns and they react to their fear with anger. It is certainly not unheard of for those few to having biting things to say about other guns.

bds
July 16, 2014, 02:40 AM
Why is there so much hate towards the m & p from others gun owners including those that own glocks.

... refering to the hate it gets from the owners of glocks and sig.
I am a fan of Glocks/Sigs and do not hate M&P.

I have shot G17/G19/G26/G21/G30 and currently shoot G22/G23/G27 and M&P40/45.

For me, everything that I dislike about the Glock such as bulky grip, grip angle, mag/slide release and other ergonomics, they are fixed on the M&P. With the small grip insert, even my wife with her smaller hands can easily reach all the controls and readily reach the mag release on M&P40/45 but she must shift her grip on the Glocks to release the magazine.

Perhaps M&P having fixed all the issues are agitating the Glock owners everytime they shoot their Glocks? :D

Now, if S&W could finally do something about the M&P trigger ... thankfully it is easy to do a trigger job on them with a diamond file from Harbor Freight - http://www.burwellguns.com/M&Ptriggerjob1.htm

benzy2
July 16, 2014, 03:05 AM
My goal is to own one of them all, that way any opinions on a specific gun aren't because I only shoot brand XYZ. Seems the people that knock it either had issues or are out to justify to themselves that they made the right choice. I shoot my M&P as well or better than nearly any other gun I own. Don't know why, but I'm not mad it shoots well for me. I haven't had any issues that I can remember, be it the guns fault, mags fault or of my own causing. Even the cheapo pro-mags have run perfectly.

They aren't perfect but in the sub $600 range I can't think of a pistol I wouldn't expect to spend either time/effort or money on to get the most out of it. Glock sites are referred to as dovetail protectors. The XD trigger could use work. They all are a budget driven mass produced gun. It isn't going to be perfect but it will be pretty serviceable.

Bobson
July 16, 2014, 03:08 AM
This thread reminds of the video by Jerry Miculek, where he has a trigger scale and weighs the trigger pulls of a few popular polymer handguns (a Glock, an XD, of course an M&P, and IIRC one other, but I don't remember what it was). He "surprisingly" finds that the M&P has the lightest trigger. As I watched that video, and as I read this thread, an incident comes to memory...

I have a family member who works for a state law enforcement agency (not Massachusetts). After he graduated from his academy in early 2013, we went and stayed at his house for a short time. While there, I asked if I could check out his duty gun, which he unloaded and handed to me. I verified empty, racked the slide, did the obligatory aim at a spot on the wall, and began the trigger press. Then I pressed. And pressed. And wondered, oh sh--, did I break thi-

*Click*

"Whaaaaaaaat? What's with this trigger, bro?" *Re-rack, re-squeeze* "Man that's heavy."

Then I pull out my stock gen3 G19, unload and verify safe, and dry fire it. I know Glock advertises a 5.5 lb trigger. If that's true, my brother's M&P has to be at least a good 8 or 9 lbs; certainly heavier than any Glock or XD trigger I've ever handled (and I've owned both).

So IDK what Jerry Miculek was testing. I mean, the guy works for Smith. I knew going in that he wasn't going to find Springfield's product to have the best trigger, if you catch my drift.

I don't hate the M&P line. I think it's aesthetically gorgeous. I think the grip is phenomenally comfortable. I love the grip texturing and the grooves on the rear of the slide. I hate the hinge in the trigger. And the only M&P I ever dry fired had a ridiculously heavy trigger. I don't hate the gun, not by a long shot. But if all M&P triggers are like that, I don't want anything to do with the product line.

benzy2
July 16, 2014, 03:30 AM
Have you shot the gun? I hear "I hate the hinge" yet I can't feel it when actually shooting live fire. It's also a $40 part to make the trigger outshine both the XD and Glock. Its amazing a line of guns can be dismissed based on two dry fires of an officers duty gun.

Old Dog
July 16, 2014, 03:33 AM
But if all M&P triggers are like that,
They're not.

Anywhoo, not to jump on the bandwagon, but I've not seen much hate on the M&P. Thread a while back when one agency got upset because their trainees couldn't figure out how to properly seat the magazines and the mags were dropping out while on the firing line ... agency subsequently went back (temporarily) to their previous issue pistol ...

My department uses M&Ps. I hated them at first (being an iconoclast who muchly prefers a hammer-fired pistol), however, my opinion has evolved some -- I now have a lot of respect for the M&Ps as the pistol has demonstrated really good reliability, acceptable accuracy and been pretty good for beginners to learn.

Now, ah, the trigger ... yes, it can be improved greatly with the Apex mods. My issue has always been the slight mushiness on many specimens and a somewhat indistinct reset after the pistol has been shot a while. All things considered though, the superior ergonomics of the M&Ps, combined with the reliability and the decent accuracy, render it a pretty good service pistol. For sure, production M&Ps have way better sights than stock Glocks ...

9mmforMe
July 16, 2014, 03:34 AM
"Smith & Wesson, being based in Massachusetts, has let politicians guide their manufacturing and design. For example, they put 12-16 pound triggers on their M&P pistols.

This kind of engineering was prompted by politicians, not gun designers. This breaks a fundamental rule of gun safety which says never to point a gun at anything unless you intend to shoot it because a 12 pound trigger, even even the most expert hands, will cause the muzzle to move off target when firing.

This "safety" feature actually makes the gun more dangerous and requires the owner to get a trigger job done on it. "


This is absolute bunk! If a 12 pound trigger causes you to move the muzzle in a manner that takes it off the target then you need to work on your trigger control. :scrutiny: Oh, and please inform the DA revolver owners they have "more dangerous" weapons...wait, they might like that! :neener:

The M&Ps have not been dissed in any concerted way as far as I know. I don't own one but have shot them and they seem like well made reliable pistols as far as I can discern.

Bobson
July 16, 2014, 04:21 AM
Have you shot the gun? I hear "I hate the hinge" yet I can't feel it when actually shooting live fire. It's also a $40 part to make the trigger outshine both the XD and Glock. Its amazing a line of guns can be dismissed based on two dry fires of an officers duty gun.
I could have dry fired it 10, 20, or 50 times, and it would have felt progressively heavier, not better. If a $40 part makes such a world of difference, one should quickly ask why Smith didn't do it that way to begin with.

I prefer to buy products I like right off the shelf, rather than buy things and have to invest more to bring it up to standard. Even if the monetary cost of the upgrade is marginal, it's the principle of the thing. So, in the event that I can't find a perfect pistol, it becomes a matter of weighing the pros and cons of each.

At the time I bought my Glock, it came out on top of the others, for me. So far, I've not come up with sufficient reason to pursue a replacement; the M&P's sexy slide serrations and comfortable grip notwithstanding. I shoot the G19 really well, it carries very well for me, I'm pleased with it's capacity, and I love everything about it's trigger. The M&P might be better in many ways, I readily concede; but it can't be enough of an improvement (based on how I feel about the G19) to justify the expense of the change.

RustyShackelford
July 16, 2014, 05:57 AM
I've owned & toted a few semi auto pistols(M9, 96D, PX4 C/constant action, M&P, Glock gen 04). In short, for duty or serious defense use, you need to replace the sights on nearly any semi auto pistol you carry. ;)
I like Trijicon 3 dot night sights. The steel design is robust & can hold up well. Wayne Novak's style lends itself to CCW/plainclothes carry. He understands the need for pistol sights that don't snag or are sharp. Smith & Wesson has used Novak styles since the 1980s with great results.
As for triggers. I shot about 240 rounds of .45acp in my Glock 21. The police trade in trigger was decent & I wouldn't feel the need to convert it to NY-01.
My M&P .45acp Compact shot fine too. I wouldn't feel unsafe with it on duty or as a CCed pistol. Could custom action work or Apex Tactical parts help? Sure, but on those M&Ps it's not critical.

FWIW, I've heard a few PPQ shooters & gun press writers like Massad Ayoob rave about the trigger pull on the pistols. I'd buy a long-slide PPQ .40 if I could.

jjones45
July 16, 2014, 07:26 AM
I like my m&p9 and would probably love it once finally get an apex trigger kit installed. People will always find something to complain about, it's in our nature.

HexHead
July 16, 2014, 07:58 AM
Ummm...Massachusetts (as people mention here). 940 CMR 16.00 (http://www.mass.gov/ago/government-resources/ags-regulations/940-cmr-1600.html) which make it a "deceptive practice" if certain features aren't included:

"...such mechanisms shall include, but are not limited to: raising trigger resistance to at least a ten pound pull, altering the firing mechanism so that an average five year old child's hands are too small to operate the handgun, or requiring a series of multiple motions in order to fire the handgun."
such mechanisms shall include, but are not limited to:

That 10 lb trigger was an option given, not a requirement.

Sam1911
July 16, 2014, 09:37 AM
I thought reliability issues were ironed out except for any new models.I really don't know how to say for sure. The last one I saw choke and "DNF" a match was a week and a half ago at my monthly club match.

tipoc
July 16, 2014, 01:50 PM
Why is there so much hate towards the m & p from others gun owners including those that own glocks

What hate? Where have you seen this?

Also some companies pay people to go on websites and ask questions like this one. It quickly gets a rumor going on "social media" that people "hate on" M&Ps. But I've seen no particular hate.

Well, OK maybe from fellas like Fire In Cairo who are new to firearms and believe all they read on the internet without trying to verify it. Nope not all M&Ps have 12 pound triggers. If you have one that does you can fix that.

Folks sometimes spread rumors with the intent of drawing traffic to their websites. "Mo hits, mo money!"

Some folk don't care for the M&P but it rarely rises to the level of hate. Really who cares if it does.

tipoc

Vodoun da Vinci
July 16, 2014, 01:56 PM
Not seen the Hate - shot a couple (actually a bunch) of M&P pistols last Summer. Didn't buy one but I think they are excellent guns. Not for me but they seem to be pretty popular in this neck of the woods.

VooDoo

Potatohead
July 16, 2014, 02:16 PM
I guess we havent decided if there's actually any hate or not but it sounds like they need to put them out with better triggers. Maybe that's where the hate comes from? That right after you buy a new gun, you have to buy a new trigger group also?

mgmorden
July 16, 2014, 02:24 PM
I really don't know how to say for sure. The last one I saw choke and "DNF" a match was a week and a half ago at my monthly club match.

Just out of curiosity - what type of malfunction are you seeing there? I've heard of some issues with the extractor and 9mm, but that doesn't seem like the type of thing that would take a pistol of a match for the rest of the day.

FWIW, mine has been mostly pretty good. Most of my issues were self caused, and break down to:

1. I went to a lower power recoil spring (13 lbs) that it discovered didn't have the power to always overcome the striker spring and close the action, resulting in "no bang" when the trigger was pulled occasionally. Going back to the stock spring completely fixed that issue, so I can't fault the gun.

2. I've had extraction issues only if I go for a good while (750 rounds or so if shooting lead - about twice that if shooting jacketed) without at least taking a pick to the extractor and scrapping out the crud.

3. Only within the last month or two I've had a few times where empty brass stuck in the chamber and wouldn't come out without using a squib rod to bang it out. I was using bulk used brass though and after I started to case gauge I've found several instances of 9mm Luger cases in that batch that someone cut down to 9mm Makarov length. I've got a hunch that these were causing problems as when I case gauged the lot and removed those all the issues went away.

Certainly no worse than any other pistol I own - issues caused by lack of cleaning, tinkering, and bad reloads, which will stop anything. I keep a round count of what I put through the gun and I just passed 10k rounds this month.

Granted, as I mentioned earlier I think highly of a lot of other guns too. I've owned or shot most of the "major" duty sized pistols on the market right now and the only one that I just don't really like is the Beretta 92, and even that one isn't terrible. As long as you stay away from the absolute cheap junk guns (Lorcin, Jennings, etc) they all pretty much work fine.

Sam1911
July 16, 2014, 02:30 PM
M&P triggers aren't any worse than Glock or xD triggers, on the whole, but they can all be made a whole lot better with premium aftermarket parts. Many shooters consider that to be part of the purchase cost, like a holster and 5-10 mags, mag pouches, fiber optic front sight, etc.

That really shouldn't scare off a potential buyer, as striker-fired polymer frame pistols are fundamentally equivalent in that aspect.

The ongoing problems with extraction (sometimes even with aftermarket extractors) and occasional light-strike issues are more of a concern as there exist a noteworthy number of the guns that neither the factory nor the well-known M&P gun plumbers can seem to get running reliably in the long term.

One of my best pals owned and dumped FIVE of them after multiple trips back to the factory for problems that came right back. Wouldn't even sell me one to tinker with.
I've personally, in the flesh, seen four or five folks suffer that problem and ruin a match when their M&P turned into a manually-operated repeater in the middle of a stage, just in the last four years or so (including my club president just this month). If you can't get the gun to RUN, what the trigger feels like is totally irrelevant.

Sam1911
July 16, 2014, 02:32 PM
Just out of curiosity - what type of malfunction are you seeing there? I've heard of some issues with the extractor and 9mm, but that doesn't seem like the type of thing that would take a pistol of a match for the rest of the day.
Failure to extract is the most common problem. And yes, it sure does take a pistol right out of the match. If you end up "TRB-ing" multiple times in every string, you might as well pack it in and go home. ONE botched stage can take you out of the running. A whole match worth isn't worth the waste of ammo...

Another problem has been with recurring, intermittent light strikes, which polishing the striker and replacing springs sometimes fixes. Not that that's much consolation when you're doing malfunction drills in the middle of a big match you spent hundreds of dollars to attend.

Potatohead
July 16, 2014, 02:36 PM
M&P triggers aren't any worse than Glock or xD triggers, on the whole, but they can all be made a whole lot better with premium aftermarket parts. Many shooters consider that to be part of the purchase cost, like a holster and 5-10 mags, mag pouches, fiber optic front sight, etc.

That really shouldn't scare off a potential buyer, as striker-fired polymer frame pistols are fundamentally equivalent in that aspect.

makes sense.

vba
July 16, 2014, 02:37 PM
I like my M&P9c just fine. Had some problems with it at first with light primer strikes but subsequently traced it to my reloads. The primers I was using were old and had been in my basement for some years (thought they were newer).

Anyway, I like the gun very much and would recommend it highly. It is my main summer carry gun. I've no problem with the stock trigger.

Hangingrock
July 16, 2014, 02:58 PM
I have a rather limited sample of (2). Both have been trouble free.

One of the two was a Mass compliant model. I have a preference for the magazine disconnect feature which others do not have. The trigger press was corrected with a Apex Duty/Carry kit. With the difference the Apex Duty/Carry kit made I had the kit installed on my other MP. On both pistols the OEM sights were changed out to 10-8 sights with a front night sight and plain rear sight.

With either one I've experienced no extraction/ejection or insufficient strike discharge problems. But like I said previously I have a limited sample of two.

Either way both are tools. If the tool is problematic simply quit using it and find another tool that works.

mdThanatos
July 16, 2014, 03:04 PM
I am liking my 9FS, and I have rented the 9c and the first time I tried it I didn't care but everytime I have tried it after it has been fantastic and I am seriously considering it as a better carry option compared to the FS. I like how the m&p's feel in my hand and how they feel when I shoot them but I do like the feel of a glock trigger, not to say that I hate the m&p trigger.

FireInCairo
July 16, 2014, 03:37 PM
I think the M&P Shield 9 is likely the best ergonomic subcompact pistol out there. I know the triggers are a lot like their counterparts, though, and so I will pass on it because I'd rather not have to do the kind of trigger job required.

Glocks are easy to work on because their strongest feature is the simplicity of design. They're too blocky for my taste, though, so I have decided to try some Springfields.

Sigs look awesome to the eye, but they're pricey.

Subcompact Kahrs are some of the most conealable pistols out there, but they're not made to run 10,000 rounds as far as reliability goes.

Someone somewhere in this thread said it all. The guns being manufactured today all have some feature that's admirable and all are well-built enough to meet most anyone's standard.

That being the case, it's going to come down to the little things for someone to be drawn to a line of pistols.

Smith & Wesson are a Massachusetts manufacturer. They, if no one else, should have been rallying gunowners and pressuring politicians in the state to stem the tide of political opposition.

Massachusetts is like the cradle of liberty and gun manufacturing. And having lived there I think it's a shame that it's becoming known more for its oppressive, anti-gun politics.

So I don't hate S&W, I just think they've dropped the ball politically and part of that is seen in making guns with 16 pound triggers.

Oh, and I've owned two Walther PPS pistols which required trigger jobs and an M&P .40c which had the worst trigger I've ever tried. A good out of the box trigger is important to me.

tipoc
July 16, 2014, 05:24 PM
So I don't hate S&W, I just think they've dropped the ball politically and part of that is seen in making guns with 16 pound triggers.

What 16 pd. trigger? On what gun? Did you fix it?

tipoc

FireInCairo
July 16, 2014, 06:00 PM
this thread will help

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/72677-10lb-trigger-pull-question

Praxidike
July 16, 2014, 08:03 PM
I think the M&P Shield 9 is likely the best ergonomic subcompact pistol out there. I know the triggers are a lot like their counterparts, though, and so I will pass on it because I'd rather not have to do the kind of trigger job required.

I'll never understand the thought behind needing the prefect trigger on a nonrange or target gun, or why anyone would turn down the "best ergonomic subcompact pistol out there" because of it. It was designed to be a ccw, and it exceeds at that. Will how crisp the the trigger breaks or the extra couple of lb really matter or do you really think you'd notice it at all when someone is shooting at you, or coming at you with a knife, or has a gun aimed at your person? To each their own I guess.

Smith & Wesson are a Massachusetts manufacturer. They, if no one else, should have been rallying gunowners and pressuring politicians in the state to stem the tide of political opposition.

Massachusetts is like the cradle of liberty and gun manufacturing. And having lived there I think it's a shame that it's becoming known more for its oppressive, anti-gun politics.

So I don't hate S&W, I just think they've dropped the ball politically and part of that is seen in making guns with 16 pound triggers.


That was discussed earlier in this thread by Ugaarguy....

That's a trigger modification that's on the MA compliant models ONLY, and not on ALL of the M&P pistols as you're asserting. Would you prefer they not make a compliant model and not sell their flagship pistol to residents of MA?

Was the Ruger SR9 designed by politicians? They have a MA compliant version of it.

What about every pistol manufacturer in the US that offers handguns with 10 round mags for states that have those simpler regulations: Are they kowtowing and letting politicians design their pistols?

My Walther PPS, which was distributed by S&W, had a trigger well over 12 pounds. They, too, are well-known for absurdly heavy triggers in Massachusetts.

If the rule is 10 pound minimum, there's no sense in going beyond that.

No, there's plenty of sense in going beyond that. It's called a safety margin or a margin of error. There's no harm in going 20% over, but if you're .00001% under you're in legal trouble. It's just like all the shotgun manufacturers making 18.5" bbls instead of 18" bbls. Who says the state's weights and measures are calibrated the same as S&W's? Or the same as these guys posting on the web?


Would you prefer they didn't make a MA compliant model? Or do you like having the option to buy the pistol in MA?

I noticed that ugaarguy asked you the same question twice, but you never answered...

S&W does sell 3-4 models of the same gun. CA compliant, MA compliant, with a safety, and w/o a safety. If Ugaarguy is correct in his assessment, then your "they've ball politically" comment is not fair and is unwarranted. They are a gun company and their job is to sell guns. They did their job, selling guns to MA residents, when they complied with MA law. It's not their jobs to rally "gunowners and pressuring politicians in the state to stem the tide of political opposition." If MA has crappy gun laws it's because the people that live in MA voted for progun control candidates to represent them. If the people in MA don't like their gun laws, then they need to "rally" on election day.

Thaddeus Jones
July 17, 2014, 10:50 AM
I don't "hate" inanimate objects. That said I don't like the m&p guns. The triggers are lousy. Spongy, long and gritty. They feel cheap and are ugly to boot. Overpriced for what they are too. IMO of course. :)

I'm old enough and own enough pre 2001 S&W handguns to recall when they made good looking reliable accurate handguns with great triggers right out of the box.

Yes, I'm aware of Apex Tactical aftermarket parts. What I don't get is why should I have to immediatly buy aftermarket parts to give my new S&W handgun what it should have come from the factory with?

If I wanted to rebuild new handguns right out of the box, after paying too much for them, I'd still be buying Kimbers.

I also wonder what kind of prior experience with handguns those who tell us to "just learn to work the m&p trigger" or "get use to it" have.

The trigger and control of same is the first building block to accurate shooting. Evidently there are many gun buyers today who are willing to settle for less. I'm just not one of them. :)

Praxidike
July 17, 2014, 11:42 AM
I don't "hate" inanimate objects. That said I don't like the m&p guns. The triggers are lousy. Spongy, long and gritty. They feel cheap and are ugly to boot. Overpriced for what they are too. IMO of course. :)

I'm old enough and own enough pre 2001 S&W handguns to recall when they made good looking reliable accurate handguns with great triggers right out of the box.

Yes, I'm aware of Apex Tactical aftermarket parts. What I don't get is why should I have to immediatly buy aftermarket parts to give my new S&W handgun what it should have come from the factory with?

If I wanted to rebuild new handguns right out of the box, after paying too much for them, I'd still be buying Kimbers.

I also wonder what kind of prior experience with handguns those who tell us to "just learn to work the m&p trigger" or "get use to it" have.

The trigger and control of same is the first building block to accurate shooting. Evidently there are many gun buyers today who are willing to settle for less. I'm just not one of them. :)
It's not a target gun, and many people do fine and are very accurate with the stock trigger. How well the trigger is on any firearm is highly subjective. Just because YOU do not like the trigger and aren't accurate at close range (it is a close range s.d. firearm) and are placing the blame on the trigger does not mean that everyone else suffers from YOUR personal problems with this firearm. It also does not mean they're inexperienced with handguns, inaccurate with the stock trigger, or are settling for less. :)

Sam1911
July 17, 2014, 11:47 AM
A really good trigger is merely a crutch anyway. Since shooting DA revolver exclusively for a year or so a while back, I'm not bothered by any Glock, M&P, xD, Kahr, etc. trigger I've felt.

:)

Thaddeus Jones
July 17, 2014, 11:55 AM
"It's not a target gun." Yes, thats the excuse most often offered by m&p fans.

"..its a close range s.d. firearm.." Well that IS the first time I've heard that stated. The folks I've seen shooting it at IDPA matches must not know that.

And for the record I never stated what accuracy I have achieved with the multiple m&p's I've shot.

I do recall shooting 4.5 inch groups at 25 yards during a 2007 LE T&E using an m&p 40. That was about the best I've gotten one of those to shoot. That also happened to be one of the best groups turned in during the eval. The Glock 22 was eventually chosen instead.

I think if people like the m&p and are satisfied with it as a "close range s.d. firearm" more power to them. :)

Thaddeus Jones
July 17, 2014, 11:58 AM
"A really good trigger is merely a crutch."

I can't believe that is a serious statement made by a moderator on a gunboard.

ClickClickD'oh
July 17, 2014, 12:21 PM
"..its a close range s.d. firearm.." Well that IS the first time I've heard that stated. The folks I've seen shooting it at IDPA matches must not know that.

You do know that IPDA is a sport organized and run to emulate close range self defense scenarios right?

Armor Snail
July 17, 2014, 12:25 PM
Agreed^^^ Idpa is pretty close.
I would consider "target" distance 25-50 yds.
Not that 7yd nonsense.

wally
July 17, 2014, 12:30 PM
The idea that the politicians are guiding the design process of a gun manufacturer strikes be as foolish hogwash,

We wish, Have you seen the new "Massachusetts Compliant" Kahr P9 with thumb safety and loaded chamber indicator? Probably why the M&P and Shield came out initially with a thumb safety.

I'm currently down on Kahr because of poor customer service on my CW9 broken frame rail and their ignoring of my follow-up Emails, but I've got over 6000 good rounds through it.

Praxidike
July 17, 2014, 12:33 PM
"It's not a target gun." Yes, thats the excuse most often offered by m&p fans.

"..its a close range s.d. firearm.." Well that IS the first time I've heard that stated. The folks I've seen shooting it at IDPA matches must not know that.

And for the record I never stated what accuracy I have achieved with the multiple m&p's I've shot.

I do recall shooting 4.5 inch groups at 25 yards during a 2007 LE T&E using an m&p 40. That was about the best I've gotten one of those to shoot. That also happened to be one of the best groups turned in during the eval. The Glock 22 was eventually chosen instead.

I think if people like the m&p and are satisfied with it as a "close range s.d. firearm" more power to them. :)
You also aren't making much sense. On one hand you claim the gun is inaccurate because of the trigger, and then you claim you shoot 4.5 inch groups at 25 yards? I said it before and I'll say it again, your personal "opinion" on how the trigger preforms for "you" is not a refection on how well or how accurate others can shoot with it.

You didn't have to mention you were a Glock fan... I could already tell by your attitude.

Thaddeus Jones
July 17, 2014, 12:35 PM
No. I never heard anyone at the local IDPA matches describe it as "close range" self defense.

Competition with your carry gun and equipment is what it was described as.

Every match I've attended had far more 15 and 25 yard targets set up than 7 yard targets. The closer targets are often movers as well. That is the Oxford NC match.

Praxidike
July 17, 2014, 12:40 PM
Agreed^^^ Idpa is pretty close.
I would consider "target" distance 25-50 yds.
Not that 7yd nonsense.
Would you consider a 4 inch barrel hand gun that was able to get 4 inch group at 25 yards inaccurate for what it was designed and manufactured to do?

ClickClickD'oh
July 17, 2014, 12:40 PM
No. I never heard anyone at the local IDPA matches describe it as "close range" self defense.

Please describe to me a normal stage at an IPDA match. Then explain how this isn't a close range self defense scenario.

While you are at it, explain to IDPA themselves how they are doing it wrong.

The International Defensive Pistol Association (IDPA) is the governing body of a shooting sport that simulates self-defense scenarios and real life encounters.
http://www.idpa.com/

Armor Snail
July 17, 2014, 12:42 PM
Would you consider a 4 inch barrel hand gun that was able to get 4 inch group at 25 yards inaccurate for what it was designed and manufactured to do?
It could sure be better.
4" @50 maybe.

Thaddeus Jones
July 17, 2014, 12:42 PM
Praxidike once again you are wrong. I don't like Glocks either. I don't own one. And likely never will. The Glock 22 won the T&E because it scored higher than the m&p.

I don't own any plastic striker fired handguns. Largely because of their poor triggers.

I did briefly own a Walther PPQ. The Walther PPQ 9mm I briefly owned did in fact have the nicest trigger of any striker fired gun I've tried.

Oh, BTW I don't consider 4.5 inches at 25 yards anything more than combat accurate.

My S&W 3rd gen 45's can all better that grouping.

Praxidike
July 17, 2014, 12:52 PM
Praxidike once again you are wrong. I don't like Glocks either. I don't own one. And likely never will. The Glock 22 won the T&E because it scored higher than the m&p.

I don't own any plastic striker fired handguns. Largely because of their poor triggers.

I did briefly own a Walther PPQ. The Walther PPQ 9mm I briefly owned did in fact have the nicest trigger of any striker fired gun I've tried.

Oh, BTW I don't consider 4.5 inches at 25 yards anything more than combat accurate.

My S&W 3rd gen 45's can all better that grouping.
That's just the point. Most people who buy m&ps are buying them for close quarters self defense - combat purposes and not for 25-50 yard shots in a competition. They are not settling on anything and the firearm is plenty accurate for what it's being used for.

wally
July 17, 2014, 12:55 PM
The ongoing problems with extraction

I find this strange, I've run my M&P40 and M&P40c with 9mm conversion barrels for several thousand rounds and have never had an extraction issue. I've M&P 40, 40c, 9mm Pro & 45 and Shields in 9mm and .40S&W haven't had a failure in any of them except with my reloads as will be described below.

I did put in the extra power striker springs in my 40 and 9mm Pro to solve ignition problems with my reloads, didn't notice any decrement to the trigger from doing so. For some reason the Shields and M&P 40c and 45 have had no ignition problems with my reloads. I'm a big believer in "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"

I like the stock M&P trigger much better than the stock Glock trigger -- most likely because the M&P fits my hand like the glove, while the Glock fits like a block. I've Glock 17, 22, 21, & 20 so its not like I haven't given them a fair shake, but all besides the gen 4 22 needed the 3.5 lb connector for me to be able shoot acceptably -- lighter trigger definitely helps when the gun is a poor fit to the hand, the gen 4 is the first Glock to give me a decent fit.


Most people who buy m&ps are buying them for close quarters self defense - combat purposes and not for 25-50 yard shots in a competition. They are not settling on anything and the firearm is plenty accurate for what it's being used for. I've got Trijicon RMR optic on my Shield 40 and doing the "final" sight in with my carry ammo off sand bags at 25 yards it put five shots into 2.5" the mechanical accuracy is there for the 25 yard shots. The short sight radius of a sub compact definitely works against you.

9mmepiphany
July 17, 2014, 01:26 PM
"A really good trigger is merely a crutch."

I can't believe that is a serious statement made by a moderator on a gunboard.
I'm not quite sure why you find this so unbelievable?

I thought this was a widely well known fact...it has never been a secret; although the denial factor has always been fairly high...it really isn't part of our job description to perpetuate the myth of the Golden Trigger

skoro
July 17, 2014, 01:34 PM
i was refering to the hate it gets from the owners of glocks and sig.

That's just fanboy nonsense, is all. Glocks, Sigs and M&Ps are all fine pistols. Go with the one that fits your hand the best and you'll be pleased.

Thaddeus Jones
July 17, 2014, 01:36 PM
The only place I've ever even seen such a statement was in this thread.

In all my years of training I've only ever been taught that a good trigger and control of same is fundamental to accuracy.

I was never told it was a "myth". Evidently Apex Tactical, who is profiting greatly from the m&p's lousy factory trigger is unaware of this "myth" as well.

Otherwise why would they waste their time and money coming up with a better trigger? Someone should tell them.

skoro
July 17, 2014, 02:08 PM
I keep hearing complaints about the M&P triggers, so I must be a very fortunate guy. I've owned two; a 45FS and a 9C. Both triggers were a little stiff at first, like lots of new semi-autos tend to be. With some use and dry firing, they both quickly became nice and smooth. No complaints from me.

9mmepiphany
July 17, 2014, 02:21 PM
The only place I've ever even seen such a statement was in this thread.
As I said, I thought it was common knowledge, obviously not as common as I thought.

In all my years of training I've only ever been taught that a good trigger and control of same is fundamental to accuracy.
Trigger control is fundamental to accuracy. Smooth trigger travel makes that control easier, but certainly isn't a determinate of accuracy

I was never told it was a "myth".
I wouldn't know who to blame for not telling you, you'll have to figure it out for yourself

Evidently Apex Tactical, who is profiting greatly from the m&p's lousy factory trigger is unaware of this "myth" as well.

Otherwise why would they waste their time and money coming up with a better trigger? Someone should tell them.
I've had that discussion with them, we're personal friends, and they do it for the same reason that Ed Brown offers a full length recoil spring guide...because there is a customer demand for it. Some people would much rather spend money than put in work, plus a large portion of the M&P market will be happy with the stock trigger. If they could capture even half the M&P market, they'd be rolling in money...they're not

I'm the last one to poo-poo the advantages of the Apex Tactical FSS action kit on my M&P, but I don't deny that it is a crutch for my lack of dedication to practice.

I've also had the trigger of every S&W revolver I own tuned as well as action work on all my pistols. I freely admit to being a trigger snob, but it doesn't make it any less of a crutch

Old Dog
July 17, 2014, 03:30 PM
Well, as per usual in these types of threads, the brand-bashing is perpetuated by one repeat poster ... in this case, one who doesn't seem to have much recent experience with a good sample size of the platform being discussed, and one who finally admits that he doesn't like polymer-framed striker fired pistols.

"Lousy triggers?" My sample size for this pistol runs in the hundreds, not one or two or three ... Some of the triggers are better than others, but as noted, Apex provides a superb upgrade. Accuracy? Some M&Ps are quite accurate, most are average, a few are mediocre at best. The M&P gamut probably runs about the same spread as every other production plastic pistol.

One moderator notes that in his local IDPA matches, he's seen some repeated issues with M&Ps. One might wonder about the operators' maintenance habits, as I've seen large numbers of these pistols go through very high round count training with nary a hitch. This may be due to the fact that our armorers go through the S&W factory armorer school and are pretty attuned to detecting and rectifying issues with problem guns ... and all our people are trained to shoot one gun pretty much all the same way (we still see individuals who have some bad habits that occasionally induce the same malfunctions). I will add that we have had some mechanical issues with our M&P-45s, but the 9s have been solid

Good cleaning and maintenance, using good quality ammunition, good shooting mechanics, and the platform is as reliable as any other out there, IMO.

Sam1911
July 17, 2014, 04:56 PM
One moderator notes that in his local IDPA matches, he's seen some repeated issues with M&Ps. One might wonder about the operators' maintenance habits, as I've seen large numbers of these pistols go through very high round count training with nary a hitch. This may be due to the fact that our armorers go through the S&W factory armorer school and are pretty attuned to detecting and rectifying issues with problem guns ... and all our people are trained to shoot one gun pretty much all the same way (we still see individuals who have some bad habits that occasionally induce the same malfunctions). I will add that we have had some mechanical issues with our M&P-45s, but the 9s have been solid

Good cleaning and maintenance, using good quality ammunition, good shooting mechanics, and the platform is as reliable as any other out there, IMO.
Of the folks I've known with these problems, three are Master ranked shooters, others at least Sharpshooter class. My circle of shooters includes one of the most well known M&P gun "plumbers" (mentioned in this thread, in fact) and yet these problems sometimes persist.

To be fair, most of these shooters would consider "several thousand rounds" only a month or two's amount of shooting, and I don't have a way to know the average round count on any of their guns. Still, even a couple years' worth (say 25,000-30,000rds?) shouldn't be causing them these problems.

Sam1911
July 17, 2014, 05:01 PM
"A really good trigger is merely a crutch."

I can't believe that is a serious statement made by a moderator on a gunboard.

Ahhh, expand your mind! :)

Actually, just listen to what 9mmepiphany said. He hit the nail right on the head. Anyone who says they "need" a great trigger and can't shoot a box-stock Glock or M&P (or Smith J-frame for that matter) well is admitting far more about themselves than they are about the gun.

It isn't as easy to shoot precisely with a less-than-glass-rod-perfect trigger. But there is nothing at all in that less than perfect trigger causing the gun not to be accurate. It's all in your focus and ability to control that trigger. If your skills are "there" it shouldn't matter what the trigger feels like.

wally
July 17, 2014, 05:18 PM
To be fair, most of these shooters would consider "several thousand rounds" only a month or two's amount of shooting This would be about right for my M&P Pro 9mm which has never given me any extraction/ejection issues.

I was mentioning the 9mm conversions because they *should* be more sensitive to extractor/ejector issues because of the extra 1mm slop in the breech face. I don't shoot the 40c much, but when I do its usually with the 9mm barrel. The 40 conversion I haven't used since I got the 9mm Pro, but I liked it so much I jumped on a Pro when I found one at a good price.

OTOH I've not messed with the recoil spring or trigger, only added the extra power striker spring to get reliable ignition with my reloads (mostly Tula primers these days, might not be needed with others, but I didn't notice any trigger degradation from the change).

MrBorland
July 17, 2014, 05:47 PM
As far as reliability, I've seen a number of them fail (extractors & firing pins) in competition - but these are guns that're used hard. I just chucked the stock extractor and replaced it with a bomb-proof Apex extractor, and no issues to date. Still have the original FP, but I'll get an extra if I continue to use it in competition.

As to the trigger - I'm a revolver shooter, so while others moaned and groaned about the trigger, it felt fine to me. :confused: Nonetheless, eventually, I tuned the trigger myself. I'm sure installation of Apex trigger parts is quicker and yields an excellent trigger, but it's tough to beat free, especially when the result is more than satisfactory.

Good trigger is necessary for accuracy? It sure helps one shoot optimally. I made an assertion on an earlier thread that a good handgunner ought to be able to consistently print 3" groups at 25 yards, to which a GM-level shooter I know chimed in thinking I ought to relax that standard for polymer striker-fired guns. My M&P40 was brand new to me at the time, but I took his challenge, and the next day, with an entirely stock M&P40, shot 3 back-to-back sub-3" groups at 25 yards with it. I do better with my smooth revolvers, but this M&P, with it's factory trigger, was up to the task.

http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp239/becke016/GunsTargets/MampP4010-24-131_zpsb5acd4eb.jpg

http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp239/becke016/GunsTargets/MampP4010-24-132_zpsed4f2932.jpg

Ankeny
July 17, 2014, 05:49 PM
FWIW, our state Highway Patrol went from Glock 22s to the M&P for reasons of ergonomics. They have had so many issues with parts and reliability that they are contemplating going back to Glock. That's a pretty good sample size of folks who depend on firearms to get them home at night if things go gunny sack.

As far as good triggers being a crutch, a good trigger doesn't necessarily mean light, but it has to be consistent, predictable, and up to the task. Frankly, I doubt there would be much difference in my scores in Production Division using a stock M&P vs. a worked over M&P trigger. Put a crunchy, inconsistent, 14 lb (think NY trigger) in an Open Division blaster and see how that works out for you. :)

9mmepiphany
July 17, 2014, 05:57 PM
I was mentioning the 9mm conversions because they *should* be more sensitive to extractor/ejector issues because of the extra 1mm slop in the breech face.
That's part of the original problem, there isn't an extra 1mm...it is always there as S&W decided to use the .40 extractor on the 9mm models

jmr40
July 17, 2014, 06:52 PM
Our local city PD had been using the same 5906's for close to 20 years and needed a replacement. The chief really wanted to stay with S&W and hated Glocks. They started evaluating different guns about 4 years ago. The M&P was their 1st choice, but they had numerous reliability issues. Multiple guns were sent back. They finally gave up and explored staying with 5906's. S&W no longer catalogs them, but at least at that time would have made a run if enough were ordered. The price was just too high. In the end, after 2 years of searching they finally settled on G-17's.

They have been in use for the last 2 years and seem well received.

I tried one of the M&P 45's shortly after they came out. I never had any issues, and actually liked the gun fairly well. I don't hate them and hope S&W can, or has figured out what the problem was. At the end of the day I just liked Glock better and I sold the S&W.

ritepath
July 17, 2014, 08:23 PM
I held a CORE again this evening. (along with a 34,35,CZ75, 3 G20s and last but not least a p320.

I love my Shield, I really liked my 9c but it just didn't fit my style of carry. A friend of mine will pick up his pro 9 next week. Once I get a few rounds down it, I'll know better if it's still on the short list. Right now it has the advantage of feel...

2ndamd
July 18, 2014, 02:12 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byGG7DfZ5DU
This is the reason for so much M&P hate!
Haha!
Awesome!!!

tipoc
July 18, 2014, 03:34 PM
That's pretty funny.

Now we need one about good triggers being just a crutch.

tipoc

2ndamd
July 18, 2014, 09:02 PM
Crutch!
LOL!

wally
July 18, 2014, 09:07 PM
That's part of the original problem, there isn't an extra 1mm...it is always there as S&W decided to use the .40 extractor on the 9mm models

The extra 1mm I'm talking about is on the breech face which would seem to make it easier for the extractor "slip off", but it doesn't seem to happen with my 40 & 40c conversions. So I just don't see why the 9mm M&P would "often" have extractor issues as my Pro 9 certainly doesn't.

peacebutready
July 18, 2014, 11:31 PM
Actually, just listen to what 9mmepiphany said. He hit the nail right on the head. Anyone who says they "need" a great trigger and can't shoot a box-stock Glock or M&P (or Smith J-frame for that matter) well is admitting far more about themselves than they are about the gun.

It isn't as easy to shoot precisely with a less-than-glass-rod-perfect trigger.

I say practice with all/most triggers. If I go to the range to shoot semi-auto, most of the time I'll at least put 25 rounds through a J-frame as well.

peacebutready
July 18, 2014, 11:34 PM
I will add that we have had some mechanical issues with our M&P-45s, but the 9s have been solid.

Any word on the .40? That's what the M&P was designed around, IIRC.

danez71
July 19, 2014, 11:19 AM
"It's not a target gun." Yes, thats the excuse most often offered by m&p fans.


That's the excuse most often offered by people that realize they didn't buy a target gun with a target trigger.


None of the manufacturers are putting target grade triggers on non-target guns.



I was never told it was a "myth". Evidently Apex Tactical, who is profiting greatly from the m&p's lousy factory trigger is unaware of this "myth" as well.

Otherwise why would they waste their time and money coming up with a better trigger? Someone should tell them.


Because some people like to tinker and try to make what they bought into something else that they think fits their perceived needs better.



In all my years of training I've only ever been taught that a good trigger and control of same is fundamental to accuracy.



Oh come on now..... That's like saying that 'high performance tires and control of same is fundamental to good driving'.

UziLand
July 19, 2014, 11:41 AM
I have two S&w MP series that I bought this year. A 4" bbl for the wife and the Pro for me. I don't know what the trigger pull is, but it feels smooth and easy to us. I sold a Taurus 40 that had a much harder trigger pull, and lousy sights. The only extraction problems I've had was when working up "light" loads. A little more powder, problem dissapears.

LightningMan
July 20, 2014, 10:51 PM
In reguards to the original poster, I must be in the minority as I own 3 of them and like them quite well. I will agree with the triggers as they seem to be all over the board. My first M&P (also my carry gun) is a .40 S&W compact, and I have a full size 9mm, also a full size .40 V-TAC model. The compact has the best trigger out of the box, right at 5.5 pounds, the 9mm has a 6.25 pound pull and the higher priced V-TAC had the worst at 7.5 pounds. I put an Apex full competition trigger kit in it and now all I can say is WOW! It pull is down to 3.9 pounds. Plan on doing this with the 9mm when I can, but not with the compact as I don't want that kind of trigger on a carry gun. LM

TestPilot
July 21, 2014, 06:09 PM
I'm not quite sure why you find this so unbelievable?

I thought this was a widely well known fact...it has never been a secret; although the denial factor has always been fairly high...it really isn't part of our job description to perpetuate the myth of the Golden Trigger
__________________

It's only a matter of degree.

People may not need a "Gonden Trigger" to get the job done, but the trigger would need to be in certain parameters for one to perform the best.

For some, like me, M&P40 trigger is within that parameters. I don't need a 1911 trigger to shoot well. But, for some it may not be. I can shoot a M642 or 380ACP pistols too, but I have no illusions that I will have the same hit rate as when I am shooting my M&P40.

TestPilot
July 21, 2014, 06:26 PM
I will just mention my experience here.

I have a bunch of M&P40's and they all work well. Only problem I had was some of them had malfunctions within the first 200 rounds due to initial part tightness.

I cannot recommend M&P9 because ones I've shot were not as accurate as M&P40s.

I require head shot accuracy out to 25m, that means group size must be smaller than a size of a head. M&P40 easily met that. Not so much for M&P9.

Old Dog
July 21, 2014, 07:37 PM
Hmm ... most of our people have no trouble making head shots out to 25 meters ... or yards. Any who can't are the ones who don't tend to shoot well anyway. Perhaps the targets we use have a bigger head area than the targets you shoot? Most of our folks seem more accurate with the M&P-9 than the 40, too. Probably it's what one is most used to shooting?

In response to a previous poster, no widespread issues known with the M&P-40.

TestPilot
July 21, 2014, 08:28 PM
Hmm ... most of our people have no trouble making head shots out to 25 meters ... or yards. Any who can't are the ones who don't tend to shoot well anyway. Perhaps the targets we use have a bigger head area than the targets you shoot? Most of our folks seem more accurate with the M&P-9 than the 40, too. Probably it's what one is most used to shooting?

In response to a previous poster, no widespread issues known with the M&P-40.
It cannot be my shooting skill.

M&P40 and M&P9 are dimensionally identical, and I have no problem making that shot with M&P40. Hell, even the firing mechanism uses the exact same parts. I am an M&P armorer.


If anything, if there is nothing wrong with the 9, I should be shooting better with it.

I am not shooting the head size taget at 25m, I am actually shooting it at 35 yards. The standard I want it to meet is 25m, and if it hits at 35 yards, I am assuming it meets that.

Granted, I do belive not all 9mm M&Ps are affected by the issue. However, what makes that a deal braker for me is that the rate is far higher than just a few %. What makes it a major problem is that S&W actually tells their customers 3 inch group at 7~10 yards is an acceptable standard.

If you're wondering why this issue is not going away even when S&W was making M&P9 for near 8 years now, there is your answer: S&W REFUSES TO ACKNOWLEDGE THIS AS A PROBLEM.

3 inch at 7~10 yards is an unacceptable standard as far as I am concerned.

May be not all M&P9s are affected by it, but the ones I've shot are the first guns that are difinitely not "The gun shoots better than I can."

Outlaw Man
July 21, 2014, 09:23 PM
I like Sigs and S&Ws, and I don't like Glocks. Like many, though, the only complaint I have about them is their ergonomics. Sig is ultimately the same way - my thumb rests on the slide stop forcing it to be a range only gun, for me. That said, if I do my part, I can shoot either of them very well (for a self-defense pistol). The one time I shot an M&P, it was the same way. None of them have the expertly tuned 1911 trigger I'd love them to have, but they're not really supposed to, either.

Honestly, the responses from some people in this thread seem like they expect the M&P to perform like an 8 inch-barreled Performance Center N-frame.

Failure to extract is the most common problem. And yes, it sure does take a pistol right out of the match. If you end up "TRB-ing" multiple times in every string, you might as well pack it in and go home. ONE botched stage can take you out of the running. A whole match worth isn't worth the waste of ammo...

Another problem has been with recurring, intermittent light strikes, which polishing the striker and replacing springs sometimes fixes. Not that that's much consolation when you're doing malfunction drills in the middle of a big match you spent hundreds of dollars to attend.
Sam, I'm not calling you a liar or disputing your story (or questioning the skill of the shooters of which you're speaking), but these problems seem like something experienced by amateurs or rookies at a match - someone who hasn't run enough rounds through their gun, at a great enough speed, to know its limits. Is this problem that sporadic, or are they taking guns to matches with known problems?

Sam1911
July 21, 2014, 09:52 PM
Sam, I'm not calling you a liar or disputing your story (or questioning the skill of the shooters of which you're speaking), but these problems seem like something experienced by amateurs or rookies at a match - someone who hasn't run enough rounds through their gun, at a great enough speed, to know its limits. Is this problem that sporadic, or are they taking guns to matches with known problems?

Nicely couched question. :D

The problems seem to be very sporadic. Running in fits and starts. 2-3K perfect shots, then incessant trouble. Sometimes, as with my club president last month, he'd brought along a spare M&P, knowing the risks, and was able to finish the match. Sometimes it seems to come out of nowhere. And other times, a bit of tinkering seems to chase off the problem, but only for a while. My pal that owned 5, sent the last one back to Smith for repair, got it back, ran about 1,500 through it and it went right back to the same FTE problem. That's when he went back to the Berettas and Glocks for good.

I can't (of course) speak for all the guys I've known who've run into these trouble patches. I do know that "sent it to the factory, got it backed and it worked for a while, now it's broke again" is something I've heard from three different shooters.

The irony is that we shoot with a well known M&P gunsmith and it always boggles my mind that the community of local-ish IDPA/USPSA types still can't find more universal success, with such a great resource so close at hand.

Outlaw Man
July 21, 2014, 10:23 PM
I try. I just didn't want you to think I was piling on with the others.

That is strange, indeed. I wonder if you just happen to shoot with the unluckiest guys in the world or they're just the only ones pushing them hard enough to see problems.

I know there are a lot of classes who use them with great success, but there are probably only a handful of classes that really abuse a pistol like a match will.

Sam1911
July 21, 2014, 10:47 PM
To be fair, there MUST be 30 that work great for every one I've seen fail (just in my local area I mean) it's just that it has become a bit of "a thing" with the loose group I shoot with.

I tried to buy one of my pal's 5 off of him as a project, wanting an SSP gun and he wouldn't sell (to me). I really did want to try my luck. But this year IDPA moved my xDM into SSP division so there's no need, I guess.

SeanSw
July 21, 2014, 11:07 PM
In my small circle of friends and gun store slackjaws the M&P has a fine reputation. One of my close friends has been converted from Glock and another said they would be if they weren't already invested in the platform. My box stock M&P9 has a good trigger. It breaks juuuuuust a little too hard with too much over travel to be ideal but not bad. It's the "Military and Police" model after all. Comparing it within my collection the M&P has a lighter trigger and softer break than my XDs. I tend to grade very small guns, snubbies, or sub compacts, on a sliding scale due to their mechanical disadvantage so the direct comparison is unfair IMO but neither come close to being bad. I admit that I felt some variation in the M&P triggers off the shelf so I believe that bad ones could be out there. Luckily I was able to cherry pick the M&P and was delivered a good XDs.

The only new striker fired pistol I owned with a terrible, horrible, no good trigger was the Walther PPS. It completely ruined an otherwise great gun.

Johnny Lightning
July 21, 2014, 11:59 PM
I have both glock and m&p pistols and like them both. I will say that the stock trigger on the m&p is horrid but can easily be fixed w/ an apex trigger kit. Also you can find glock parts and mods everywhere but m&p can be hard to find at times.

Nakanokalronin
July 22, 2014, 07:34 AM
I own both M&Ps and Glocks. The M&P has a slightly heavy pull, but could loosen up over time. I know that an Apex sear and a DIY round/polish job on the striker block will bring the pull down to a very smooth 5lb pull. Glockaholics like to state that the M&P trigger is really bad, but then don't talk about how so many Glock owners put in lighter connecters and do all sorts of other work to make them "perfect".

Glock triggers are not exactly light either and feel like a staple gun. My 3rd. Gen G19 has a 5lb pull after putting in a 3.5 "-" Glock connector with no other mods. Seems to me that it's the same pull after an Apex sear in the M&P....huh. My 3rd. Gen G26 has a 4.7lb pull with the "-" connector as well with no other performance mods. I've had people tell me that the "-" connector makes it too light, but it's nonsense. A 5lb pull is perfect on any combat/SD handgun. Lets also not forget that most Glock owners change out the sights simply because they're plastic. I changed mine out for factory metal sights since I like what I call the "ball in a cup" sight picture.

Then we go to the ergonomics of the pistols. Here's what I did to my M&Ps to make them point naturally and not slice my hand with a high, thumbs forward hold. Absolutely nothing since it already rides low in the hand, but it doesn't slice it up if I grip it properly. It feels like whoever designed the grip at S&W knew what the human hand looked like.
https://i.imgur.com/7Bzzt0q.jpg


Here's my G19 and what I had to do. Beavertail, remove the finger grooves, undercut the trigger guard, knock down some of the grip texture on the front strap, G17 trigger and put a GAP plate on the mags to complete the shorter grip. Grant it a G17 would have a longer grip, but only The Gen 4 with no extra backstrap on points naturally for me and I'm already invested into the G19.
https://i.imgur.com/AJeoqcJ.jpg

tipoc
July 22, 2014, 12:58 PM
From TestPilot:

What makes it a major problem is that S&W actually tells their customers 3 inch group at 7~10 yards is an acceptable standard.

Interesting, when and in what context did S&W make this statement?

tipoc

Potatohead
July 22, 2014, 01:41 PM
It cannot be my shooting skill.


LOL! Of course not!

Old Dog
July 22, 2014, 02:16 PM
From TestPilot:


Quote:
What makes it a major problem is that S&W actually tells their customers 3 inch group at 7~10 yards is an acceptable standard.

No, no S&W does not tell their customers this ...

Nakanokalronin
July 22, 2014, 03:42 PM
From TestPilot:

Quote:
What makes it a major problem is that S&W actually tells their customers 3 inch group at 7~10 yards is an acceptable standard.

Two S&W reps told me on the phone that they were supposed to get a 3" group at 25 yards.

I've owned 2 M&P FS9s as well as the 2 FS45s in my previous post. I will say that the FS9s didn't have great accuracy. My original FS9 was sent into S&W because I got an 8" group at 15 yards using 3 different weights and 7 different brands of ammo. After two trips back they finally replaced the barrel which brought it down to a 4" group at 15 yards. People told me over and over it was me getting used to the trigger which is nonsense. My second FS9 was getting a 4" group at 15yards out of the box, but I dumped it as soon as I bought the first FS45.

I can get one ragged hole at 15 yards with the two FS45s in my previous post which have an Apex hard sear and DIY round/polish job on the striker block. Those are the same mods my FS9s had. S&W did have some barrel twist issues with their FS9s which supposedly got worked out by now.

TestPilot
July 22, 2014, 07:28 PM
Interesting, when and in what context did S&W make this statement?
S&W rep told me that when I tried to send back my M&P9 because it won't group as well as my M&P40.

"If they hang the target at 7(or 10)yard and it groups 3 inches they'll just send it back to you."

That is what he said.

When I e-mailed S&W, they confirmed that is their "out the door testing" standard, but refuesed to acknowledge there is ANY STANDARD as far as what the specification is supposed to be.

This is far after the supposed rifling twist rate fix.

TestPilot
July 22, 2014, 07:42 PM
Two S&W reps told me on the phone that they were supposed to get a 3" group at 25 yards.

25 feet not 25 yards.

"Dear Customer,
We do not have a published standard our shooters shoot the guns at 25' to a 3" group to allow guns to ship from MFG. to distributors.
If further assistance is required please reply accordingly.
Sincerely,
Michael DiFiore"

I e-mailed them again to confrim he actually meant 25 FEET. And, he acknowledged. He also denied that that is any published design specification.

The first outrageous admission was through phone by a CS rep. Then I opted to communicate through e-mail, becuase the law here makes it illegal to record phone conversations without both parties consenting. Otherwise, you'd be hearing this on Youtube. I would have posted that **** up so every LE who is considering M&P9 would hear it.

3 inch at 25 FEET is an unacceptable standard.

25 feet = Approximately 8m. = 3 inch spread at 8m ([M870 SHOTGUN WITH FEDERAL FLITE CONTROL PATTERN IS TIGHTER THAN THAT!)

That means 9 inch spread at 24m.

Tell me if that's an acceptable standard to you.

This was in early this year.

barnbwt
July 22, 2014, 09:04 PM
Why is there so much hate towards the m & p from others gun owners including those that own glocks
For the same reason that Ape and Man will never peacefully coexist :rolleyes:

"I always think Glock better than M&P. Now, I see how like them they really are." :D

Testpilot,
They clearly state that's what their shooters are held to; not necessarily the same as a Ransom rest, nor even a very skilled or careful shot. Probably an intern who has to test an entire crate in the span of an hour or so, who can't waste much time on form. Obviously if a casual test shot can't hold even that well, something is bad wrong with the gun, probably a straight-up safety issue that would also keep the gun from even going into battery. Someone else do the geometry numbers to determine exactly how much the barrel needs to shift relative to the sights to cause such a wide variation mechanically, and you'll likely find it is highly improbable for CNC tolerance parts. I've long thought that factory test fires are more a formality for customers than for true QC, since part testing and QC would catch pretty much every function/safety issue but assembly tolerance stack up long before the gun is assembled.

Add up:
-Bullet/bore diameter variance (I guess twist rate/stability effects, too, if there is any question of bullet stability)
-Crown variance (usually the culprit for inaccurate new guns that otherwise work)
-Sight variance and stability
-Barrel/slide variance and play
-Ammunition variance
-Chamber variance (i.e. loose, tight, etc.) --very minor effect compared to the others

There's really only so many things that can go wrong to cause a firearm to be inaccurate. If lockup is consistent (bolt, barrel, slide), the sights aren't moving, and the barrel itself is made well, what else could there possibly be but Voodoo? If the latter, I suggest rubbing the barrel with chicken blood before oiling and storage.

TCB

Nakanokalronin
July 23, 2014, 12:34 AM
25 feet not 25 yards.

I know the difference between yards and feet. Two reps told me 25 YARDS. Twenty five yards is not all that great a distance to shoot a pistol. S&W is not the only manufacture to test their pistols at that distance. Many people have gotten targets back with 25 YARD groupings when they send them in for accuracy issues. Now not all manufactures will test their guns at that distance, but if multiple reps tell me it's capable of 3" groups at 25 yards then there's something seriously wrong when it's getting that at 25 feet. That's the reason I sold my FS9s. I have no doubt my FS45s can achieve this since they got the barrel twist right on those models.

tipoc
July 23, 2014, 01:14 PM
The first outrageous admission was through phone by a CS rep. Then I opted to communicate through e-mail, becuase the law here makes it illegal to record phone conversations without both parties consenting. Otherwise, you'd be hearing this on Youtube. I would have posted that **** up so every LE who is considering M&P9 would hear it.

There is something amiss here in the reasoning.

First off the M&P has been and is a successful line of pistols for S&W. There have been a good many sold to law enforcement. That trend seems to be growing. These are all well established facts.

Second, most agencies have some type of testing regimen set up before they take a gun into service. Contracts often maintain a period of time to test the guns while in service, return them for repairs or cancel the contract. They just don't spend money on a pig in a poke. There have been reports of the M&P having some problems but in general the picture is one of increased adoption by law enforcement.

Third, the M&P has been widely commented on in gun magazines and on line reviews. None that I have read have said that 8-9" groups are the norm at 25 yards.

So we have a brand of gun that routinely passes the tests of law enforcement organizations for accuracy and reliability, that has been widely reviewed in the gun media, and that many shooters have bought and appreciated, all of whom state that it is on a par with other guns of it's type in terms of accuracy from a bench at 25 yards. On the other hand we have one phone conversation and an email.

What's more likely, that there was some mis-communication between TestPilot and the single CS rep or that thousands of others, including law enforcement agencies, mistook the 3" groups they measured at at 25 feet for 3" groups at 25 yards?

tipoc

Old Dog
July 23, 2014, 02:17 PM
Well, as I have previously stated ... my sample size is in the hundreds, yet for some mysterious reasons, I've not experienced, nor witnessed, the accuracy problems stated by "TestPilot" nor the reliability issues related by another poster.

Perhaps all the "good" M&Ps are shipped out to law enforcement agencies on the West coast and the factory seconds go everywhere else?

TestPilot
July 23, 2014, 02:54 PM
Well, as I have previously stated ... my sample size is in the hundreds, yet for some mysterious reasons, I've not experienced, nor witnessed, the accuracy problems stated by "TestPilot" nor the reliability issues related by another poster.

You personally shot all hundreds of thos pistols and grouped it at 25m?

Or, are you just saying you assume there is no problem because a bunch of shooters you know who may or may not shoot well enough to know the difference did not complain?

Old Dog
July 23, 2014, 04:22 PM
Read the post a bit more carefully, and you'd have noticed
I've not experienced, nor witnessed, the accuracy problems stated by "TestPilot" nor the reliability issues related by another poster.And yes, yes I have shot many of these pistols myself, alongside our other instructors, armorers, as well as witnessing the performance of the pistols at competitions, instructor academies, initial qualifications, regular qualifications, line officer training, tactical team training ...

As far as your claim about what a S&W rep told you, perhaps we get the real reps when we deal with the factory ... They don't b.s. us, and the company is well aware of any problems that are reported by departments and agencies with which it's contracted ...

Finally, a disclaimer: I have no particular loyalty toward the M&P. All things considered, I'd much prefer to be allowed to carry a SIG P-series pistol, a 1911 or even a Beretta M-9 or CZ-75 ... However, the M&P has exceeded my expectations and proved to be a worthy service pistol, though still not one of my top choices.

TestPilot
July 23, 2014, 08:56 PM
And yes, yes I have shot many of these pistols myself, alongside our other instructors, armorers, as well as witnessing the performance of the pistols at competitions, instructor academies, initial qualifications, regular qualifications, line officer training, tactical team training ...


DID YOU, OR DID YOU NOT, personally shoot hundreds of M&P9, and specifically M&P9, GROUP TESTING all of them at 25m or beyond?

It's a simple "yes," or "no" question.

Answer clearly.

Do not give me this blurry story about "Me, along with others I've seen..." engaged in shooting traning that does not necessarily involve group testing at 25m or beyond.

If I were to judge an issue by my observation of how others shoot, Gen 3 40S&W Glocks should not have a feeding problem with lights either, since I've saw over a hundred Gen 3 Glock 40S&W shooters not suffering that problem, but it is well known fact that the problem does exist. So, "I saw a buch of other shooter with no problems" does not mean much.


As far as your claim about what a S&W rep told you, perhaps we get the real reps when we deal with the factory ... They don't b.s. us, and the company is well aware of any problems that are reported by departments and agencies with which it's contracted ...

If there's nothing wrong with the gun, then why does not company feel the need to B.S. the rest of us?

TestPilot
July 23, 2014, 09:38 PM
First off the M&P has been and is a successful line of pistols for S&W. There have been a good many sold to law enforcement. That trend seems to be growing. These are all well established facts.

Second, most agencies have some type of testing regimen set up before they take a gun into service. Contracts often maintain a period of time to test the guns while in service, return them for repairs or cancel the contract. They just don't spend money on a pig in a poke. There have been reports of the M&P having some problems but in general the picture is one of increased adoption by law enforcement.


First, not all samples of M&P9 is affected by the problem. However, it appears to be larger in proportion than a few % lemons. When this was surveyed in M&P forum, out of 31 people, the rate of people who have experienced the problem was about 19%, if I recall correctly. I wish more participated, but I have no control over that.

http://mp-pistol.com/polls/38249-your-m-p-9-affected-accuracy-problem.html

There have been plenty of cases where an LE agency noticing problems after adopting a pistol they supposedly throughly tested.


Third, the M&P has been widely commented on in gun magazines and on line reviews. None that I have read have said that 8-9" groups are the norm at 25 yards.

I did not say they are the norm.

Gen 3 40S&W malfunctioning with the light isn't the "norm" either, but it is a well known fact that the problem does exist.

Kahr I bought was an utter crap, but all magazine reviews I've seen were raving about it.


Another thing that you must know is that this is not a very noticable issue unless it is specifically tested.

I can grab those M&P9 I have accuracy problems with and pass nearly all law enfocement agency qual process and still out shoot most of the officers. Hell, most of those courses do not even go beyond 17 yards.

TestPilot
July 23, 2014, 09:58 PM
Posted by Potatohead:
LOL! Of course not!

Explain why I have no problems with an M&P40 then. A dimentionally IDENTICAL pistol, with an IDENTICAL trigger.

tipoc
July 23, 2014, 10:13 PM
From TestPilot:

I did not say they are the norm.

No you said that S&W told you that 3" groups at 25 ft was an acceptable standard. You cited this "statement" by a S&W CS rep as evidence of the poor accuracy of the pistols as a whole and as the opinion of S&W on the subject. You felt so strongly about this that you said you wished you had recorded this and posted it to You Yube so that many people would know the facts about the guns. This clearly implies that you believe it typical of the guns or that S&W has quite low standards.

You also referenced a poll taken at an M&P forum. Of the 31 people who took part in the poll, 6 of them, or under 20% said that they had problems. One said that once they replaced the trigger group for Apex parts the gun was fine and they liked it (someone pointed out that this was not so much a gun problem but an aid for that shooter).

You had nothing to say about the law enforcement agencies that tested and adopted the M&P and have kept them in service. Apparantly they proved more accurate and durable than the one you had.

Finally you got a Kahr that you didn't like but magazine reviews said it was fine. Happens. But for you the whole batch of that type gun are "utter crap". I don't care much for Kahrs, but as a whole they are good guns that work well. Just not so much for me. It's mostly for me the dao trigger.

So it seems you have a beef with the M&P line of handguns as a whole, or at least the 9mms. Seems unreasonable.

tipoc

TestPilot
July 23, 2014, 11:06 PM
No you said that S&W told you that 3" groups at 25 ft was an acceptable standard. You cited this "statement" by a S&W CS rep as evidence of the poor accuracy of the pistols as a whole and as the opinion of S&W on the subject.

So, "S&W rep told me they have a low standard of pistol testing, and I have experienced accuracy problems" suddenly morphs into "Testpilot said all S&W are inaccurate" in your mind.

Not to mention, that I stated in no uncertain terms that I do not think this problem affects all M&P9 much earlier.

Then you want to lecture about what is unreasonable. What a joke.

tipoc
July 23, 2014, 11:49 PM
First, not all samples of M&P9 is affected by the problem. However, it appears to be larger in proportion than a few % lemons. When this was surveyed in M&P forum, out of 31 people, the rate of people who have experienced the problem was about 19%, if I recall correctly. I wish more participated, but I have no control over that.

What is it then Test Pilot that you are saying?

At the M&P forum (why not the S&W forum?, this forum or a few more?) out of 31 people 6 said they had a problem which may or may not have been the same as yours and may have been more a problem of the shooter.

Based on very little evidence (your experience with one gun and maybe 6 people) you have concluded that a high percentage of M&P 9mm shooters are having serious problems with guns shooting 9" groups, or so, at 25 yards. Or at least you have no shame in implying that.

So spell it out please...exactly what is your point?

tipoc

Magnumite
July 24, 2014, 02:36 AM
I have an M&P 5" Pro 9. I was very excited to get it and anxiously awaited its delivery. I've have other S&W centerline handguns and all are good guns. I cut my teeth on DA revolvers and shoot them well. I love a well tuned 1911.

Shooting my Pro I can say this. It shoots fast and tracks well. This M&P is totally reliable. Nice platform. And it is marketed as a competitive sports pistol. And S&W dropped the ball on this one. My old P-85 Ruger shoots rings around this pistol. This M&P is not competitive.

The trigger was long, heavy and nowhere close to that of a decent revolver, weight was around 12 pounds, yes I measured it. Absurdly heavy and creepy. It shoots way low, 5.5" at 25 yards. Its intrinsic accuracy is nonexistent - on a good day it throws 6" groups with decent factory ball ammo. Fellow competitors voiced the same concerns.

Factory support for the abnormally low POA/POI regulation was nowhere near what it was when I had my DX revolver warranteed. I will not shoot a match with it when decent predictable precision is required, which is all the ones I shoot in. I'll use a good 1911. As a matter of fact, this pistol is the reason I resumed building a 9mm 1911.

The trigger weight is now down to about 5 pounds and smooth. Further smithing will reduce the overtravel. I've closed the groups up a little clearing out the recoil spring guide seat area of the frame, addressing the barrel crown, spring balance and working on extending the barrel lockup. Correcting the POI required a call to those familiar with the sight system used since there are no FO front sights to correct it. I purchased a black post (to shorten) to correct the impact. Said company stated it was a gun issue and to send it back. I told them I contacted Smith and got zero cooperation. The company did state a bunch of those guns were shooting low and exhibited erratic accuracy.

I did mosey on over to the Smith & Wesson website early on thinking maybe I was missing something. I lurked and read all about this pistol. I learned they were very accurate, the targets used were silhouettes as far as 10 yards out. HUH??? WT#@<%?!

To clarify, I am not a hater. Also I don't look through jaded glasses nor drink coolade (appropriate spelling). I like the pistol but am as frustrated by a company with such firearm integrity to turn out a good platform with incomplete execution as I am with the unnecessary shortcomings of the pistol. I like it, I'll get it right and enjoy it.

Old Dog
July 24, 2014, 03:32 AM
"TestPilot" posts
DID YOU, OR DID YOU NOT, personally shoot hundreds of M&P9, and specifically M&P9, GROUP TESTING all of them at 25m or beyond?

It's a simple "yes," or "no" question.

Answer clearly.Wow. This is a pretty good example of why it's often so difficult to engage in rational discourse on the internet.

I've provided, or attempted to provide, a bit of sanity in a thread containing no small amount of bias. Now, I know that I have probably a bit more experience than most casual shooters of M&P pistols (and probably most owners of M&P pistols. I certainly (as I noted previously) have no real loyalty toward the M&P -- so when I see people such as "TestPilot" putting forth a really bizarre thesis statement (M&P-9s are horrifically inaccurate and the factory says so to the consumer) and then expending a metric butt-ton (he likes meters instead of our commonly accepted form of measurement, the yard) of energy attempting to discount other posters' experiences and advance his own agenda ... well, ya just gotta wonder.

tipoc
July 24, 2014, 03:43 AM
If some of us go over here we can see a more through examination of the M&P 9mm guns. Which in some variations do seem to have had some teething problems in their development...or more than teething problems.

Seems there is a history to problems with the M&P 9mm guns. S&W has changed rates of twists in the barrels twice to improve it as well as the external design of the barrels themselves to make for a better more consistent fit.

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?8743-M-amp-P9-barrel-saga

tipoc

tipoc
July 24, 2014, 04:05 AM
Hilton Yam's opinions on the accuracy can be found here...

http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=1272

tipoc

tipoc
July 24, 2014, 04:18 AM
About 11 mins into this video Jerry Michulik discuss changes in the barrels, rate of twist and changes in the barrel hood shape.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcR2armhilo&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PLFWh-_7kw52r9fDK9CnvtJkn2ENTC5WWC

tipoc

Magnumite
July 24, 2014, 10:18 AM
Mikulek is fast for sure, love watching him shoot. I bought his advanced revolver video way back, spectacular.

Jerry did mention Smith doing their homework on the new revision barrel - which means it wasn't done on the originals. So for the performance I paid for originally I need to spend another $200 on a barrel. For equivalent trigger quality over stock condition I have to throw down another $150. Thanks but no thanks, Smith should correct it for free. If I didn't like the platform and way it tracked when shooting I would just dump the pig.

I will say I have noticed the 45 and 40 caliber M&P owners are pleased with their pistols' performance. But I wouldn't recommend a 9mm M&P.

Thaddeus Jones
July 24, 2014, 11:18 AM
Perhaps you m&p experts can answer a question for me, being I've learned so much from this thread already. :)

If these m&p's are so great why have they been dumped by the Atlanta PD, NC Highway Patrol and Texas DPS? After EXTREMELY short times with those agencies.

TestPilot
July 24, 2014, 11:26 AM
Wow. This is a pretty good example of why it's often so difficult to engage in rational discourse on the internet.

I've provided, or attempted to provide, a bit of sanity in a thread containing no small amount of bias. Now, I know that I have probably a bit more experience than most casual shooters of M&P pistols (and probably most owners of M&P pistols. I certainly (as I noted previously) have no real loyalty toward the M&P -- so when I see people such as "TestPilot" putting forth a really bizarre thesis statement (M&P-9s are horrifically inaccurate and the factory says so to the consumer) and then expending a metric butt-ton (he likes meters instead of our commonly accepted form of measurement, the yard) of energy attempting to discount other posters' experiences and advance his own agenda ... well, ya just gotta wonder.

Notice that he still does not answer the question.

TestPilot
July 24, 2014, 11:31 AM
Perhaps you m&p experts can answer a question for me, being I've learned so much from this thread already.

If these m&p's are so great why have they been dumped by the Atlanta PD, NC Highway Patrol and Texas DPS? After EXTREMELY short times with those agencies.

I do not think they're "so great" for everyone. I adopted M&P40 because it suits my needs the best.

Each agencies have their own reasons.

Why do some agencies adopt M&P after those agencies you mentioned dumped them?

LAPD dumped Glock for M&P. Does that mean Glock is worse than M&P? I think not.

M&P is not the only pistol that got dumped after short period of time with some agencies. There are lot of politics and B.S. bias involved in weapon selection of government agencies. Some department get a bad batch. There are numerous reasons.

Also, note that some of those agencies you mentioned involved 357SIG. M&P was engineered based on 40S&W. S&W did a good job of that. One problem is that S&W decided to go cheap after that, and instead of giving different caliber versions proper attention, they just try to get away with minimum slight modification as possible to make the two other caliber versions. Similar reason to how Glock wrecked the 9mm gen4 when they tried to use the new 40S&W gen4 recoil springs as a common part. Glock now has separate spring for 9mm.

Magnumite
July 24, 2014, 11:43 AM
"Casual" shooters who compete regularly and are proficient sort out what works from what doesn't. When many of those "casual" shooter competitors know others with similar complaints it seems there are real issues. When fellow competitors notice shooting skill and after a string of fire ask what gun you are shooting and describe the same shortcomings it isn't mindless bias. The nature and performance of the M&P is why I leave it home when I need a pistol that performs to the necessary standard.

Now if we're just shooting large watermelons at 5 yards...

Thaddeus Jones
July 24, 2014, 01:01 PM
LAPD has not "dumped Glock". In fact they continue to issue Glock 17's to new recruits in the academy.

The Glock 21, Glock 17, Glock 30, Glock 26, Glock 30S, Glock 22, Glock 27 and Glock 19 are all on LAPD's approved list.

The m&p is not. In any caliber.

Old Dog
July 24, 2014, 02:48 PM
Well, Thaddeus Jones, I don't think anyone here is saying "M&Ps are so great." And while at least one of the agencies you mentioned "suspended" the issue of the M&P, contrary to internet opinion, agencies aren't "dumping" the M&P in droves. In fact, I'd speculate that for every department that may quietly start re-issuing another pistol, ten or twenty more are transitioning to the M&P.

Any handgun adopted by any law enforcement entity in today's political climate is probably going to be a total compromise (that said, I cannot explain the Indiana State Police adoption of the SIG P227). Any pistol manufactured for mass issue is certainly going to have its share of lemons squeak through the factory doors.

My department transitioned because we got M&Ps for free. S&W isn't the only manufacturer that's done this. That's how Glocks ended up in so many police holsters.

Oh, and "TestPilot?"
Notice that he still does not answer the question. If you'd read my post more carefully, you'd wouldn't have had to make your rude demand. For the record, yeah, I'm pretty sure I've shot over a hundred of our pistols (thus making my sample size substantially greater than yours anyway), but more to the point -- I don't NEED to shoot every single specimen myself; we have quite a few other instructors and armorers whose judgment and experience I trust, aside from the fact that I have personally witnessed most of our firearms being shot. And no, we don't shoot to 25 METERS, we use YARDS in my country. Do we shoot three or five shot strings to try and get tiny little groups? Not usually, but if you knew anything about handguns, you'd know there are other methods to judge accuracy.

Again, I have no dog in this fight; I'm simply a minion of the government who has some experience with this particular pistol -- and I suspect that most here have only internet opinion as a basis for their judgment of the M&P. And, as I said before, if I was in charge, the M&P wouldn't even be in my Top 5 for a service pistol. However, I have concluded that the M&P is a decent service pistol, not overwhelmingly great or the best at any particular thing, but reliable enough, and accurate enough, to be capable of saving one's butt or someone else's butt.

ClickClickD'oh
July 24, 2014, 02:54 PM
If these m&p's are so great why have they been dumped by the Atlanta PD, NC Highway Patrol and Texas DPS?

Texas DPS hasn't dumped the M&P. They delayed it's entry into service from the A14 academy to the B14 academy.

The decision probably had a lot more to do with a lot of very angry troopers downgrading from .357sig to 9mm than it did with the 10 microns of movement.

TestPilot
July 24, 2014, 04:32 PM
If you'd read my post more carefully, you'd wouldn't have had to make your rude demand. For the record, yeah, I'm pretty sure I've shot over a hundred of our pistols (thus making my sample size substantially greater than yours anyway), but more to the point -- I don't NEED to shoot every single specimen myself; we have quite a few other instructors and armorers whose judgment and experience I trust, aside from the fact that I have personally witnessed most of our firearms being shot. And no, we don't shoot to 25 METERS, we use YARDS in my country.

So, U.S. Army is not a part of U.S. according to you I guess. And, you're in love witn an inferior system. I get it.

... Do we shoot three or five shot strings to try and get tiny little groups? Not usually, but if you knew anything about handguns, you'd know there are other methods to judge accuracy.

A simple "No, I did not group hundreds of M&P9 at 25m (or yards) or beyond" would suffice.

I do not have a "dog" with people who did not experience accuracy problem.

I DO have a "dog" with people making statements like "my sample size is in the hundreds," to argue that there is no accuracy problems, then refuse to state whether if that hundreds of example consist of grouping at the discussed range, then when asked about exactly what that hundreds of M&P experience consist of, ramble about some vague training, some of which is observation only, that does not even involve the kind of shooting I am talking about.

TestPilot
July 24, 2014, 04:40 PM
LAPD has not "dumped Glock". In fact they continue to issue Glock 17's to new recruits in the academy.

If you have inside connection with LAPD, I suggest you make a call. Glock is still approved, but it is official that new recruits will be getting M&P.

tipoc
July 24, 2014, 06:42 PM
Jerry did mention Smith doing their homework on the new revision barrel - which means it wasn't done on the originals

Yes, that's the point. Hilton Yam's site notes that there have been 3 barrels issued, the original and 2 revisions. Jerry shows us two of the versions.

This led to problems with accuracy.

tipoc

tipoc
July 24, 2014, 06:48 PM
From Thaddeus Jones...

If these m&p's are so great why have they been dumped by the Atlanta PD, NC Highway Patrol and Texas DPS? After EXTREMELY short times with those agencies.

I don't know about some of what you mentioned but I do know that the Texas DPS did not "dump" the M&P. It adopted them in 9mm, received the first batch and suspended training with them after problems with a few of the couple of hundred they received needed repair. This procedure is fairly common among law enforcement. The adoption of a new side arm is phased in usually and time provided for training and repair or upgrades. They do not just toss away the old guns and issue the new untested.

tipoc

jamal28
July 24, 2014, 11:22 PM
Hey testpilot i didnt know lapd went with the m&p when did this happen? I thought lasd was the only one goin to the m&p

TestPilot
July 25, 2014, 12:28 AM
Hey testpilot i didnt know lapd went with the m&p when did this happen? I thought lasd was the only one goin to the m&p
It got on the approved pistol list last year July, according to the date on the list shown to me by an LAPD officer.

Issuance to recruits is to be commenced, according to their last training division guy I talked to. Probably it already happened by now, considering that was last year.

It won't be long before those recruits hit the streets.

Glock is still approved though.

Magnumite
July 25, 2014, 10:11 AM
from previously posted link
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?8743-M-amp-P9-barrel-saga

post #6...mention is made of barrel dwell time. I noticed this very early in dealing with my pistol and have been working on it. In a hammer gun the mainspring, hammer face and lower rear slide radius all contribute to how long the barrel stays in battery attitude - i.e. its bore centerline staying in battery angle both horizontally and laterally. The M&P has very little dwell time.

Take an unloaded M&P 9, mag out and close the slide. Get it well anchored, watch the rear of the slide and pull the trigger. You'll notice the slide moves forward. This means at the time of firing the slide/barrel assembly are not in full battery position. The striker spring force is actually countering recoil spring force. So the striker is moving forward. The recoil spring is pushing the slide and barrel forward since the striker spring tension was released. All this movement during lock time. Everything which is a no-no for good accuracy. THEN, the striker hits the primer. Hmmm....

I have working on this from two directions. Striker/recoil spring balance and extending/delaying barrel unlocking (tilt down). The barrel is very hard and files won't touch it. I've acquired a couple stones to work on the target barrel fitting points. I have made some progress and actually shot an almost group yesterday. Fliers are still there but closer to the main group.

jamal28
July 25, 2014, 12:18 PM
Does anyone know if texas dps will re issue the m&p this year

Old Dog
July 25, 2014, 02:54 PM
So, you guys do know that the two or three departments that may or may not have (the evidence is still not forthcoming, mostly anecdotal) stopped issuing the M&P-9 did not do so because of accuracy issues? And that the hundreds of agencies that have adopted the M&P since 2006 seem to have accepted the M&P's accuracy level as adequate for their needs? And really, service pistols are selected because they're presumed to be reasonably reliable, but generally, because it's the best deal the agency can get, budget-wise.

"TestPilot" comments
So, U.S. Army is not a part of U.S. according to you I guess.
Well, since the vast majority of commercial, private and law enforcement handgun ranges in this country use the yard as the standard of measurement, I submit it doesn't really matter what I think about the U.S. Army. Given that the discussion was about shooting pistols and not spotting for snipers on overwatch in Ramadi or land nav exercises at Ft. Benning, just give the meter thing a rest, please.

And, you're in love witn an inferior system.How do you get this from what I said?
Which was:

if I was in charge, the M&P wouldn't even be in my Top 5 for a service pistol.
I have no particular loyalty toward the M&P. All things considered, I'd much prefer to be allowed to carry a SIG P-series pistol, a 1911 or even a Beretta M-9 or CZ-75 ... However, the M&P has exceeded my expectations and proved to be a worthy service pistol, though still not one of my top choices.
"In love?" Hardly.

And while I don't feel the need to deconstruct another member's entire posts, hmm, this:
I DO have a "dog" with people making statements like "my sample size is in the hundreds," to argue that there is no accuracy problems, then refuse to state whether if that hundreds of example consist of grouping at the discussed range, then when asked about exactly what that hundreds of M&P experience consist of, ramble about some vague training, some of which is observation only, that does not even involve the kind of shooting I am talking about.
Rather makes me wonder if you ever read for actual comprehension, or just pick and choose little snippets of posts for which to argue ... "Vague training?" Seriously, man ... I have observed or fired this platform for several years, actually monitoring and verifying the performance of this pistol for its intended use. If you cannot, or refuse to accept my comments for what they're worth (about what you paid for them), you're simply arguing for the sake of arguing.

And for gosh sakes, anyone who buys a handgun simply because their local PD, SO or state police issue it, reconsider, run, far, far away ... Buy something you like that works for you. You're gonna be shooting your pistol a lot more than Trooper Smith or Deputy Jones shoot theirs ...

TestPilot
July 25, 2014, 08:43 PM
And, you're in love witn an inferior system.
How do you get this from what I said?

The Imperial Unit, not M&P.

I am sorry for calling it a "system" earlier. That was clearly my error.

1 mile = 1760 yard = 5280 feet , 1 feet = 12 inch. That is not a system. It's a pathetic joke.

jamal28
July 26, 2014, 02:20 AM
Seems like the m&p is starting to become an even bigger player in the le market with those adootions..... i wonder what other agencies have plans of adopting the m&p

Old Dog
July 26, 2014, 03:35 AM
1 mile = 1760 yard = 5280 feet , 1 feet = 12 inch. That is not a system. It's a pathetic joke.Ah, TestPilot, for once I agree with you. I seem to remember that when I was in elementary school, my teachers were telling us that by the time we were of legal drinking age, the U.S. would have abandoned the silly English system of measurement and we'd be fully functioning with the metric system. Boy, that was a long time ago, too ...

Nevertheless, we stubbornly remain wedded to inches, feet, yards and miles ... so we continue to shoot at these distances.

Seems like the m&p is starting to become an even bigger player in the le market with those adootions..... i wonder what other agencies have plans of adopting the m&p
Well, the fact that Glock's latest new pistols are geared toward either competitive shooters or the concealed carry market should tell you something.

Fishman777
July 26, 2014, 10:08 AM
They are one of the best handgun designs out there. I think that it is the best design, but that is just one person's opinion. After firing almost every popular make and model of auto loader, I decided to go with two M&Ps. All of the metal is stainless steel with a stainless steel chassis in the polymer frame. The M&P has superb ergonomics, they are durable, reliable, and easy to shoot. I haven't shot in a while, but I shoot these guns better than any other auto loaders. I also shoot glocks pretty well, too. M&Ps also have Great sites. The Low bore axis and beaver tail make these guns very easy to control. The triggers could be better, but that is easy to fix if the trigger bothers you.

People may prefer certain guns, but to say other guns suck because you don't care for them is ignorant. These guns have done really well in pistol trials and are used by many different agencies. Internet chatter is not very reliable. Ignorant people need some sort of forum to feel important. Just because a person is a fan of something doesn't invalidate everything else. I can't say that I've ever shot a gun that I couldn't find something to like about it.

jhb
July 26, 2014, 10:37 AM
I got no hate for s&w other than they won't let us get the old 3rd gen pistols like the 5906s. It's police trade in's and overpriced for shooting safe queens for us shooters.....no factory fresh 5906. Good thing we still can get cz75s and hi powers. Oh well........

Directly on topic. Sure wanted a m&p 357.....whats not to like. not sure if discontinued or what though.

danez71
July 26, 2014, 11:41 AM
It got on the approved pistol list last year July, according to the date on the list shown to me by an LAPD officer.

Issuance to recruits is to be commenced, according to their last training division guy I talked to. Probably it already happened by now, considering that was last year.

It won't be long before those recruits hit the streets.

Glock is still approved though.


Before you dig your heels in more, are you sure that you're correct in that its LAPD?

Are you sure that an LAPD officer showed you an "approved pistol list" listing the M&P dated last year?

Are you sure that the "training division guy" that you talked works at LAPD?



The Imperial Unit, not M&P.

I am sorry for calling it a "system" earlier. That was clearly my error.

1 mile = 1760 yard = 5280 feet , 1 feet = 12 inch. That is not a system. It's a pathetic joke.


Says the guy that apparently doesn't know the history of either system.

Potatohead
July 26, 2014, 02:03 PM
Explain why I have no problems with an M&P40 then. A dimentionally IDENTICAL pistol, with an IDENTICAL trigger.
Ergh, uhmm..I dunno. It just sounded really funny. Maybe you were a little cross eyed that day?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sen8Tn8CBA4




.

TestPilot
July 26, 2014, 08:30 PM
Before you dig your heels in more, are you sure that you're correct in that its LAPD?

Are you sure that an LAPD officer showed you an "approved pistol list" listing the M&P dated last year?

Are you sure that the "training division guy" that you talked works at LAPD?


No. I am not sure.

Even though I met him at 1880 N Academy Rd. Los Angeles, CA, even though he was wearing shirt that said "Firearms" and "Tactics," and even though uniformed people that resembled LAPD officers all over the place did not seem to be concerned that this individual was handling guns around them, there still might be a chance that he might be an imposter that you might find convenient for your position.

Those uniformed officer with badges that says "Los Angeles Police" around that area may all be imposters too.

Or may be the whole place was fake, and there just happens to be an area that was set up to be a fake LAPD Academy right in the center of Los Angeles, next to Dodgers Stadium with LOS ANGELES POLICE ACADEMY" sign prominantly displayed, and no police around that area found that suspicous.

That may be enough to fool me. But, with someone with your kind of intelligence, it may still be suspcious.

May be a group of people with a capability and resources to build a multiple building training facility and fill it with dozens of imposter cops thought for whatever reason that convincing this internet personality called TestPilot that LAPD approved M&P was so important for unkown reasons.



Originally Posted by TestPilot View Post
The Imperial Unit, not M&P.

I am sorry for calling it a "system" earlier. That was clearly my error.

1 mile = 1760 yard = 5280 feet , 1 feet = 12 inch. That is not a system. It's a pathetic joke.

Says the guy that apparently doesn't know the history of either system.

How exactly did you make a logical inference that a statement of fact about the Imperial Units shows lack of knowledge of history?

I know you can't. I am just in it for the entertainment regarding what kind of sorry excuse you can pull.

Sam1911
July 26, 2014, 09:33 PM
I can close this or I can start handing out 5-day vacations for general jerk-itude.

If you can't figure out how to say what you need to say in a polite tone, please go away.

Thank you! :)

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