"New" Springfield 1911 in poor condition?


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BootBuckle
July 15, 2014, 07:55 PM
For those of you that don't know, citizens in the state of Maryland must take a 4 hour "HQL" course in order to be eligible to purchase a handgun. I've known this for a while now, but procrastination got the better of me...

After months of searching, I finally found a LGS who had access to a brand-spankin-new Springfield Lightweight Champion Operator through one of their distributors. That little 1911 has been the object of serious lust on my part for quite a while now, and when it finally became available, i said GOGOGO! They were willing to order it for me despite my lack of HQL, but required a 100% deposit and a sign-up for the course. Knowing that SA is a reputable brand, I slapped my visa on the desk and said "let's do it".

At work today, my LGS contacted me to let me know that my firearm had arrived from the distributor. They asked if I'd like to come in and see it, at which time I could fill out all of the paperwork req'd for the background checks, etc. As you could probably guess, I said "hell yeah" and drove down to the shop right after work.

When I arrived, I spoke with an employee who seemed very excited for me, and who promptly went to the back room to retrieve my new firearm. I was so pumped I could barely stand it. When the employee finally emerged, he possessed a standard Springfield-Armory hard case which looked like it had been sliding around in the bed of a pickup truck for hours on end.

I wasn't too worried about it, as it was the contents which really had me excited. I took out the pistol and gave it a quick once-over, and all looked good at first glance. I walked over to a light to get a better look, and i noticed a portion of the aluminum trigger which looked like it had been hit with a small hammer. It was oddly depressed in the size/shape of a pencil eraser, as if a piece of machinery mashed it pretty hard.

I know that SA is a quality company that will stand behind their product, but I'm frustrated about the pending hassle. If the gun was easier to come by, and if I hadn't already paid in full, I'd simply tell them "no thanks" and order a different specimen of the same model. Obviously that isn't an option, and I'll likely take possession of the gun, disassemble/clean/lube/reassemble, fire 100 rounds through it, and send it off to the factory for warranty work.

Has anyone else ever experienced anything like this? Is my intended path for edification reasonable, or would you suggest an alternate methodology? Thanks for the input, and sorry for the novel--I can get ahead of myself in front of a keyboard, especially if I'm passionate about the subject.

-BB

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jerkface11
July 15, 2014, 07:59 PM
Sounds like it wasn't new.

DT Guy
July 15, 2014, 08:00 PM
Wait-is the tiny mark on the trigger the entirety of the 'poor condition'?

Could be someone at the shop bumped/dropped it, could be someone at the factory did; Springfield's warranty is top notch, and I'd expect they will handle this quickly and competently.

Depending on the size and location of the mark, it's very likely I'd ignore it, myself....


Larry

ridgerunner1965
July 15, 2014, 08:11 PM
the gun is the least of your probs. a 4 hr course jus to purchase a handgun???? come all ye so challengd to missouri and texas and dont bring your stupid laws with yu!!

know henceforth tho we will shoot your loose dogs if they run our cattle or deer. freedom comes with a price.

wojownik
July 15, 2014, 08:14 PM
Springfield customer service should take care of you. Can you post a pic of the damaged area?

Sauer Grapes
July 15, 2014, 08:22 PM
First off, I love a lot of things about Maryland, their gun laws ain't one of them.
Second, if the gun doesn't look new in every way, have them find one that does or get your money back. I understand you want the gun, but grow up. The case being beat up is an issue. The gun having a defect is an issue.
You wouldn't buy anything else that way, what's different here, Hmmm?

Hurryin' Hoosier
July 15, 2014, 08:55 PM
First off, I love a lot of things about Maryland, their gun laws ain't one of them.


Yeah. Beretta's not real thrilled with them, either.

Baron66
July 15, 2014, 09:38 PM
That trigger defect may be the only reason you were able to get ahold of the gun. Be thankful that it's there, and get it fixed under warranty.

Jim Watson
July 15, 2014, 09:46 PM
They Just Don't Care.
I ordered a Springfield that came in with flecks of rust on the alleged stainless steel slide.
It cleaned up pretty well on the store counter, so I accepted it. Good thing, they replaced it in the model lineup with a new model about $300 higher a few weeks after.
But it later took some gunsmithing to make it do what I wanted it to do, and would have thought I had a right to expect.

ljnowell
July 15, 2014, 09:52 PM
They Just Don't Care.
I ordered a Springfield that came in with flecks of rust on the alleged stainless steel slide.
It cleaned up pretty well on the store counter, so I accepted it. Good thing, they replaced it in the model lineup with a new model about $300 higher a few weeks after.
But it later took some gunsmithing to make it do what I wanted it to do, and would have thought I had a right to expect.


Stainless steel can and does rust.

Zach S
July 15, 2014, 11:57 PM
I have never seen rust on 200 or 300 series stainless... The problem is that 201 and 304 (most common outside of firearms) is too soft for guns...

As a general rule, if a magnet will stick to it, it will rust. Some guns quicker than others. My Kimbers have held up well, my Para not so much, with Colt in between.

ljnowell
July 16, 2014, 12:17 AM
I have never seen rust on 200 or 300 series stainless... The problem is that 201 and 304 (most common outside of firearms) is too soft for guns...

As a general rule, if a magnet will stick to it, it will rust. Some guns quicker than others. My Kimbers have held up well, my Para not so much, with Colt in between.


I have seen many stainless firearms rust. It does happen.

Jim Watson
July 16, 2014, 12:35 AM
I understand that Little Pearl of Internet Wisdom, but IN THE BOX?

bds
July 16, 2014, 01:49 AM
If I am paying for a new gun, I expect the gun to be in "new" condition.

ljnowell
July 16, 2014, 04:09 AM
I understand that Little Pearl of Internet Wisdom, but IN THE BOX?


Lol, no Jim I'm not making excuses for them, in fact that's inexcusable. I merely posted what I did because there is, in many cases, a misconception that stainless firearms can't rust.

For it to rust in the box brand new? Wow. They must have accidentally got some nasty stuff on it or they need a new metallurgist.

agtman
July 16, 2014, 07:05 AM
Agree with the above comment that your Springer isn't "new," but possibly a demo model. :rolleyes:

As you've described the condition of the box, that suggests the gun was just tossed in & shipped by the distributor to your LGS. I'd refuse it in that condition. Too many other options out there.

Tell your dealer to return it for an SA 1911 that's actually "new" - as in NIB and unscathed, unscratched or otherwise unblemished. If you get any guff, be prepared to walk.

Life's too short and quality firearms are too expensive to "settle" for subpar crap, even if the only issue is out-of-the-box esthetics.

:cool:

BootBuckle
July 16, 2014, 07:32 AM
Wait-is the tiny mark on the trigger the entirety of the 'poor condition'?
That, and the poor condition of the case, yes. I haven’t given the firearm a thorough inspection yet—just stating what I saw and asking if I should be concerned.

The gun is the least of your probs. a 4 hr course just to purchase a handgun?
Yep—total BS. Too many sheep and not enough brains in the MD cities...

Springfield customer service should take care of you. Can you post a pic of the damaged area?
Picking the gun up on August 4th—will post pictures when I take possession.

Second, if the gun doesn't look new in every way, have them find one that does or get your money back.
The gun has been paid in full, and it has been shipped and received. I’ve been looking for this model “new” for quite some time, and now that I’ve finally found it, I’d rather go through the hassle of dealing with SA customer service than continue my hunt for a new Champion Operator.

That trigger defect may be the only reason you were able to get ahold of the gun.
Never thought of that… sounds plausible, good point!

They Just Don't Care.
Oh no! I have a lot of respect for SA, and I appreciate the innovative firearms and honorable customer service that they’ve brought to the industry. They will maintain my loyalty as long as they maintain the qualities which I admire. I’m ok with a goof-up on their end, so long as they are willing to make it right and minimize my hassle while doing so.

Life's too short and quality firearms are too expensive to "settle" for subpar crap, even if the only issue is out-of-the-box esthetics.
I see what you are saying, but in the case of a hard-to-find firearm, I respectfully disagree.

Thanks everyone for your comments—I’m new to the community, and I’m impressed already. Mods, please change the name of the thread to “do stainless steel guns rust?” :neener:

Cornhusker77
July 16, 2014, 07:59 AM
Springfield Customer Service is among the best.
I bought a used XD, very beat up, some clown tried to paint it, and it had an issue with the extractor.
I called Springfield to see if I could buy an extractor, and she told me it was a fitted part and I had to send it in.
I sent it in with a bad mag, wrapped in bubble wrap in a cardboard box.
It was back in 6 days from the day I sent it off, in a plastic box, with a new mag, new extractor and they didn't charge me a dime, they even paid the shipping both ways.

Fishbed77
July 16, 2014, 09:04 AM
the gun is the least of your probs. a 4 hr course jus to purchase a handgun????

Wow. That is wildly unconstitutional.

Have these laws not been challenged in court yet?

I can imagine how well government-mandated classes would go over to exercise other constitutional rights (freedom of speech, voting, & religion, for example).

tipoc
July 16, 2014, 01:24 PM
Well it's your call but...

I know that SA is a quality company that will stand behind their product, but I'm frustrated about the pending hassle. If the gun was easier to come by, and if I hadn't already paid in full, I'd simply tell them "no thanks" and order a different specimen of the same model. Obviously that isn't an option, and I'll likely take possession of the gun, disassemble/clean/lube/reassemble, fire 100 rounds through it, and send it off to the factory for warranty work.

It's a used gun. It isn't new in the box.

Take a close look at the box. It should not be all scuffed up. Look at the label on the box, it should described the gun that is inside the box (name, barrel length, color, etc.), it's product number and it's serial number. If those things don't match the gun then that ain't the box for the gun. It's just a box.

Now look at the gun. It already has one mark on it that you noticed. Was the mark made before the finish was applied or after? If before the company let a small mark on the gun pass through. If after, the gun was damaged after shipping. Are there any other mars, flaws etc. Does it come with packing lube? Was it wrapped in plastic or packing material from the plant?

If the gun ain't new you don't have to pay full new gun price. Just because you already paid in full for it does not mean you have to take it if it arrives in unacceptable condition. Anything less than a new gun is unacceptable, unless they sell it as a used gun. Demo models are discounted routinely.

Look, there is always another good gun. Always. No reason to pay full price for a gun that ain't new. Then knowingly pay more to ship it off for repairs.

tipoc

Robert101
July 16, 2014, 02:18 PM
If the case and gun had been damaged upon inspection I might not have taken possession. Let the gun store deal with it. I'm not inclined to buy a damaged gun (that is supposed to be new and without defect) and then have to deal with getting it fixed. What? Now I'm thinking I might have misread your post because why would you complete that sale?

EAJ
July 16, 2014, 04:20 PM
Sorry to hear of your experience. Hope you’re able to resolve the issue to your satisfaction. The three that I own arrived in pristine condition in new cases. Very nice 1911.

http://www.ptdoityourself.net/collection/images/saco1911_04.jpg

tipoc
July 16, 2014, 04:25 PM
EAJ,

I'd return that gun! It's got holes in the trigger!

tipoc

BootBuckle
July 16, 2014, 09:32 PM
If the case and gun had been damaged upon inspection I might not have taken possession.

I haven't taken possession yet--currently planning on taking possession on August 4th. I'll be at the LGS on July 26th to take my HQL. While there, I'll see if the owner is around, and have her (don't be sexist, fellas) take a look at the box and pistol and see what she thinks. Hopefully, she'll give me a discount or send it back to SA for me no questions asked. If she gives me any grief about it, I'll suck up my pride and say "no deal". If the deal doesn't end up going through, perhaps I'll pick up a new TRP instead. I'm not waiting another year or two for another Champion Operator to pop up. Hell, maybe I'll just save myself some money and get a Ruger SR1911 instead of a Springer...

rhinoh
July 17, 2014, 04:32 AM
Why can't the dealer send it in for repair, right away?
If you can't take possession until AUG 4 it likely would be back by then.....

jerkface11
July 17, 2014, 10:08 AM
If it needs to be sent in for repair you shouldn't be paying the price of a new gun.

2ndAmendmentNut
July 17, 2014, 11:58 AM
A gun's first impression is everything to me. If it was me I would get my money back ASAP. Once the transfer takes place it will be your problem.

george burns
July 17, 2014, 06:17 PM
No way I accept a damaged gun. You don't know what else is wrong with it "yet". It's never a great idea to start with a problem that is visible. That gun needed to be sent back. Any responsible gun store would have told you that to start with.

agtman
July 17, 2014, 07:38 PM
No way I accept a damaged gun. You don't know what else is wrong with it "yet". It's never a great idea to start with a problem that is visible. That gun needed to be sent back. Any responsible gun store would have told you that to start with.

Yeah, well, we tried telling the new guy that way back on post #16, :rolleyes: ... but, apparently, "in the case of a hard-to-find firearm," he disagrees and is willing to accept plainly visible faults, plus whatever other defects might surface later on.

'Kay, ... we did the best we could to school the boy. Maybe the ownership experience with subpar crapola is the better teacher. :eek:

:cool:

BootBuckle
July 17, 2014, 09:35 PM
...I think you missed post #24.

This is a forum, where people come to get advice from others to better prepare themselves for a pending decision. Even if I do end up taking possession, there is no reason for you or anyone else to get butt hurt--there's no harm done to anyone but me, and if I have to learn a lesson a hard way, so be it.

Not too sure why rocks were thrown...:confused:

ljnowell
July 18, 2014, 01:51 AM
...I think you missed post #24.

This is a forum, where people come to get advice from others to better prepare themselves for a pending decision. Even if I do end up taking possession, there is no reason for you or anyone else to get butt hurt--there's no harm done to anyone but me, and if I have to learn a lesson a hard way, so be it.

Not too sure why rocks were thrown...:confused:


Welcome to the forum! Normally discourse is pretty civil, though you will have some that like throw done rocks from time to time. Enjoy your stay, glad you're here!

agtman
July 18, 2014, 06:22 AM
Not too sure why rocks were thrown ... :confused:

No rocks thrown, Boot. Please enjoy your sort-of "new" pistol.
I'm sure many here would be interested in a range report when you have the time.

No doubt you'll have the satisfaction and peace of mind that comes with S.A.'s warranty service, reputedly one of the best in the industry. ;)

:cool:

98Redline
July 18, 2014, 08:49 AM
When it comes down to it, this is a matter of how much the OP "wants" this particular model vs. how long he is willing to wait for it.

Granted the beat up box is generally not a great indicator, however the box could have been easily beat up at the distributer, after it left Springfield.

With the ding on the trigger. I agree that a new gun should be pristine but with the rate that companies have been producing and selling guns, QC seems to be slipping a little across the board (I am not condoning it, merely observing). As long as the ding is only cosmetic and does not effect functionality, I would at least consider keeping it.

As for the gun not being new, that would be something that you would need to inspect closely. Rub marks on the hammer, the condition of the barrel and the condition of the frame slides will be the truest indicator as to whether or not this gun has been "run" vs. only test fired at the factory.

I will also throw my recommendation in for Springfield's customer service and warranty work. My stainless loaded champion had a bulged barrel from the previous owner. The gun was sent to Springfield and they had it back to me in 3 weeks. The fitting of the new barrel was spot on and was a much better specimen than the original barrel. Mind you this was during the time when all of the XDs pistols were back there getting the recall upgrade.

So to the OP, you have 2 choices. Refuse this gun and wait for another Lightweight Champion Operator, or take this one, return it to Springfield to fix the ding in the trigger. With that I will say that you will have long forgotten about the 2-3 week warranty time long before you stop enjoying the particular gun that you wanted.

bigfatdave
July 18, 2014, 01:13 PM
There's a WHOLE LOT of speculation and assumption going on here.

Here's the "flaw" from the O.P.
I walked over to a light to get a better look, and i noticed a portion of the aluminum trigger which looked like it had been hit with a small hammer. It was oddly depressed in the size/shape of a pencil eraser, as if a piece of machinery mashed it pretty hard.

There's a small round depression mark on the trigger, folks. You have to be in good light to see it. We don't even know if it is on the side, front, or corner.
Oh, and the case had a rough ride to the shop. Which is what a case is FOR, folks, to take dings so the gun inside doesn't.

That's what we know so far.

For all we know, the mark is a leftover from the casting process, doesn't Springfield use an aluminum trigger shoe in their 1911 pistols? Plastic in the lightweights? I honestly don't know, but a small circular mark the size of a pencil eraser isn't a sign the gun is borked, it is a sign that there is a small circular mark on the trigger.
... ... Heck, it could be the hole for a travel adjustment screw for all I know.

Boot, take an experienced 1911 user with you if it makes you feel better.
Or post pictures here.
Or price out replacement triggers, the entire planet is lousy with aftermarket 1911 parts and triggers are fairly easy to swap and inexpensive.
... ... (I like the Caspian Trik Trigger, myself - http://www.midwayusa.com/product/614895/caspian-trik-trigger-1911-aluminum-silver)

But this doesn't sound like something worth panicking over, and a lot of the posts are getting silly.

Without further actual information, maybe the speculation and guessing should slow down a bit?

BootBuckle
July 20, 2014, 09:21 PM
The last two posts nailed it--there is only a small indentation on the side of the aluminum trigger, and no other noticeable flaws on the firearm itself. I'll be in the shop on Saturday morning for my HQL course, and will take a few pictures to upload Saturday evening. Thanks for the input all.

On another note--what's with the flat or square looking triggers as of late (from the trigger recommendation 1 or 2 posts from this one)? When did they become popular (last few years?), and is there any purpose to flat triggers beside aesthetics?

bigfatdave
July 24, 2014, 09:38 PM
Flat trigger is in theory more consistent trigger pull regardless of exact finger position.

It also looks cool.

It also (in my case) is a solution for those that like a long trigger.

If you're swapping triggers, length and comfort come first, everything else is a distant second. Many people that insist on a particular trigger in a 1911 don't even know WHY styles changed or what the difference is. Decide if you're comfortable with the trigger it comes with for now unless it is damaged*, and come back with what you think is a bad fit about it if anything.



* (if it is, SA inc should send you a replacement, and you should request the one you like best, as they all cost about the same)

Chocolate Bayou
July 26, 2014, 12:09 PM
Call Springfield Customer Service. They will send you a prepaid Fed-Ex label and send it to them. I guarantee they will have it back in a week with new trigger. As for the case, you could send it back also, but I have never heard of scratched case affecting the performance of a gun. Also when you call customer service, give them the serial number and make sure when it was built. You don't really know where your LGS got the gun despite what they tell you.

Averageman
July 27, 2014, 09:44 AM
I simply would not accept the firearm.
There is no way this gun was sent to you in this condition by Springfield as "acceptable".
In no way should any firearm be sold that needs an immeadiate trip back to any manufacturer to "make it right".
You're being taken advantage of, by whom it is yet to be determined.
If you take pictures and send them to Springfield and explain your issues and DO NOT accept the pistol, then it is up to your LGS and Springfield to make it right.
That would be the way I would handle it.

Magnumite
July 29, 2014, 01:40 PM
"Flat trigger is in theory more consistent trigger pull regardless of exact finger position.

It also looks cool.

It also (in my case) is a solution for those that like a long trigger.

If you're swapping triggers, length and comfort come first, everything else is a distant second. Many people that insist on a particular trigger in a 1911 don't even know WHY styles changed or what the difference is. Decide if you're comfortable with the trigger it comes with for now unless it is damaged*, and come back with what you think is a bad fit about it if anything."

I hear that. That is how different people are with hand fit. I have never felt any consistency with the flat trigger. Except to drag my finger against the bottom of the trigger guard. Too long and there is no way to guide the finger where it needs to go. What I do like is starting with a flat trigger and putting the curve where and how I want it.

OP, Marylander here, too. HQL bites. I've been looking at a P89 Roger to replace this M&P Pro9. I just don't want to pop the $100 for the prints and license, exempted from the safety course. On the trigger issue, SA will probably want the pistol to replace the trigger. Bow length could cause lock work issues. Reading on the 1911 forum is very positive about SA's service. Call them, they will send a call tag so you are shipping cost free, send it to them. They will notify you when pistol will be returned since it has to be signed for. If the barrel lockup is loose, list that as well and you may get a fitted barrel/bushing.

bigfatdave
July 30, 2014, 01:22 PM
I hear that. That is how different people are with hand fit.

I know. I'm set up with a flat MSH, thin grips, and a long flat trigger
Not a very typical setup, but it works FOR ME

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